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03-09-2019, 06:37   #1
Lillyfae
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More children affected by parents being in prison than by child homelessness

Just read this and while I'm not particularly shocked by it, it doesn't really fit the agenda of today:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...ss-947888.html

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The number of people in prison who are parents may be higher than initially estimated, according to preliminary data from the Irish Prison Service.

Dr Fiona Donson, director of the Centre for Criminal Justice and Human Rights in the Law School of University College Cork, said the data will be published in due course, pending ethical approval.


She told a session of the 12th North-South Criminology Conference at UCC that the data is now being collated by prison governors who are asking inmates on committal whether they have children, and if so, how many.

Dr Donson and her colleague, Dr Aisling Parkes, have been looking at issues around the impact of parental incarceration on children and advantages of a child-centred approach to issues such as prison visits. She said of the preliminary data: "It seems to be showing that the figures are higher than the official estimates."

Dr Donson said that while no country has absolute data on the number of people imprisoned who have children, an EU estimate put the population at 2 million children so affected, while in Scotland it's estimated that more children are impacted by parental incarceration than parental divorce.

Dr Donson said it is likely that more children in Ireland are affected by parents being in prison than by child homelessness, which has been at critical levels in recent years.

The conference also heard from the director of the Oberstown Child Detention Campus who said huge progress has been made with young people at the facility, including taking people off campus for courses. He said challenges remain, with half of those on campus today there on remand, adding:

That creates a psychological challenge for those who do not buy into Oberstown
I would imagine that it has something to do with the fact that these people are less likely to use contraception and thus have more children full stop, but this could also be true of the parents of homeless children. I do think the article loses the plot of itself towards the end a bit .

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The event, which continues today, also heard that special measures put in place to assist crime victims with intellectual disabilities do not go far enough in a "disjointed statutory landscape".

Dr Alan Cusack of the University of Limerick said there is a case for pre-trial cross-examination, among other measures.

The conference, entitled 'Nothing about us without us' was opened by a panel of four keynote speakers; Dr Sindy Joyce, doctoral graduate of the department of sociology at University of Limerick; cervical check campaigner Vicky Phelan; Senator Lynn Ruane; and Juliet Lyons, a former director of Prison Reform Trust in Britain.

Dr Joyce said there has been some criticism of NGOs from members of her community over issues such as an upcoming national Traveller and Roma strategy, as she said two different groups - Roma and Travellers - are being "lumped together" and there is too little consultation and too many "ticking box exercises".

Vicky Phelan said she has "always been an advocate, I just didn't know there was a word for it".

"What happened to me last year was not my first foray into taking on the medical profession," she said. "We do what we do to get answers."

She said the support group with which she is involved to assist the women affected by the CervicalCheck scandal needs that support and that the conversation around the "horrible side effects" of the disease of cervical cancer needed to be normalised, with more information given at an earlier stage to those impacted by it.
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03-09-2019, 06:46   #2
 
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What "agenda of today"?
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03-09-2019, 07:02   #3
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What "agenda of today"?
Won't somebody think of the homeless children? Because obviously their parents are doing more than even non homeless children's parents . No child should be homeless. No child should have a parent in prison. However, these things do not occur in a vacuum- people who are homeless or likely to be also have the ability to not have children while they are waiting for their living situation to stabilise. People who are in prison have the same ability, plus the ability to not commit crime- superhuman really.

The parents don't care about these children's wellbeing, physical, social, material, whatsoever- they are in essence being raised by the taxpayer in a financial sense but the taxpayer is the absentee parent- the only say over how these poor children are raised is by the very people who just don't have any interest in doing so.
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03-09-2019, 07:02   #4
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Originally Posted by InTheShadows View Post
What "agenda of today"?
Those who would argue for locking prisoners up forever, thereby making sure they never have a relationship with their children, thereby keeping those children in deprivation.
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03-09-2019, 07:17   #5
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Those who would argue for locking prisoners up forever, thereby making sure they never have a relationship with their children, thereby keeping those children in deprivation.
Who the hell in Ireland is locked up forever? You see people with 600 previous convictions, including violent crimes, walking free on remand. Don't you think that this could possibly have a more damaging effect on their children's lives??
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03-09-2019, 07:26   #6
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Those who would argue for locking prisoners up forever, thereby making sure they never have a relationship with their children, thereby keeping those children in deprivation.
You think their children wouldn't be in deprivation if they weren't locked up? Honestly not having contact is probably for the best.

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No child should have a parent in prison.
Are you for real? Yes some children should have parents in prison. If they are child abusers or drug addicts who beat them.

I don't think you get what some people are born into.

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people who are homeless or likely to be also have the ability to not have children while they are waiting for their living situation to stabilise.
True but a bit late now.

Their need is real tho. Homeless or the child of an offender their needs are very real and very desperate.

Last edited by ILoveYourVibes; 03-09-2019 at 07:32.
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03-09-2019, 07:27   #7
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Am I reading this correctly,some people are gathering data to try to argue/support changes so that we will make life easier for prisoners because being a parent in prison has a bad effect on a child.

How about they go collect data on the effect the actions of those in prison has effected the victims of the crimes !

As a victim of crime, society needs to stand up to the do gooders, I do agree that it's possible that children who have a parent in prison possibly suffer,
what's the solution?... Tell the parent to stop committing crimes and getting caught.

By all means give supports for children when their parents go into jail for first time, then any multiple times explain to the prisoner that because of their reoffending the child must suffer even greater... That's not gonna work !!!

If this data is produced to seek changes to the prison system, I would ask each and every one of you to ask the creators of the report/group seeking changes for the statistics they did on the impact of the criminals actions on their victims, highlight that they have statistics to suit themselves and the real victims are ignored.
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03-09-2019, 07:33   #8
Lillyfae
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Originally Posted by ILoveYourVibes View Post

Are you for real? Yes some children should have parents in prison. If they are child abusers or drug addicts who beat them.

I don't think you get what some people are born into.
I'm saying that they don't deserve to have a parent in prison- I'm not saying that their parents don't deserve to be in prison.
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03-09-2019, 07:38   #9
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I'm saying that they don't deserve to have a parent in prison- I'm not saying that their parents don't deserve to be in prison.
That doesn't mean anything.

Its like saying to someone you don't deserve to have cancer. They have it. That's life. Wut we gonna do now is the most important step.

Everyone deserves top class high earning loving perfect parents. No one gets them.

The issue is if you start sponsoring kids financially when they have a parent in prison. People will feel its a reward and that the state supports the criminals kid and not others.

It might not be right but that is the way a lot of people will feel. Probably the way a lot of kids themselves will feel.

They do need support though. I mean i doubt the other parent is exactly perfect either in a lot of these cases.

Last edited by ILoveYourVibes; 03-09-2019 at 07:42.
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03-09-2019, 07:52   #10
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Originally Posted by ILoveYourVibes View Post
That doesn't mean anything.

Its like saying to someone you don't deserve to have cancer. They have it. That's life. Wut we gonna do now is the most important step.

Everyone deserves top class high earning loving perfect parents. No one gets them.

The issue is if you start sponsoring kids financially when they have a parent in prison. People will feel its a reward and that the state supports the criminals kid and not others.

It might not be right but that is the way a lot of people will feel. Probably the way a lot of kids themselves will feel.

They do need support though. I mean i doubt the other parent is exactly perfect either in a lot of these cases.
You never stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth, do you?
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03-09-2019, 08:30   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveYourVibes View Post
That doesn't mean anything.

Its like saying to someone you don't deserve to have cancer. They have it. That's life. Wut we gonna do now is the most important step.

Everyone deserves top class high earning loving perfect parents. No one gets them.

The issue is if you start sponsoring kids financially when they have a parent in prison. People will feel its a reward and that the state supports the criminals kid and not others.

It might not be right but that is the way a lot of people will feel. Probably the way a lot of kids themselves will feel.

They do need support though. I mean i doubt the other parent is exactly perfect either in a lot of these cases.
We're already doing this. A kid is a trouble maker in school and they get trips away and other rewards if they don't cause trouble. The kid who does their work and causes no problems doesn't get trips away or other rewards for not causing trouble. So the kids learn from an early age that the more trouble you cause the more free stuff is given to you. Then they see our "justice" system is the same so they start racking up the convictions.
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03-09-2019, 08:39   #12
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Originally Posted by Del2005 View Post
We're already doing this. A kid is a trouble maker in school and they get trips away and other rewards if they don't cause trouble. The kid who does their work and causes no problems doesn't get trips away or other rewards for not causing trouble. So the kids learn from an early age that the more trouble you cause the more free stuff is given to you. Then they see our "justice" system is the same so they start racking up the convictions.
and you didnt just make this up on the spot.......? Really?
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03-09-2019, 08:41   #13
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I think to the OP's wider point:

The Homeless* issue as been widely taken up as a cause by people whose motive is to bash government, rather than people who simply care about deprived children.

If their motive was to support deprived children, then this would be an issue for them also.

All things being equal, being deprived of a parent is a bigger deal than being deprived of a stable residence.



(*And by homeless in this case, we are talking about people who are on housing waiting lists).

Last edited by Tombo2001; 03-09-2019 at 08:44.
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03-09-2019, 08:45   #14
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Originally Posted by Tombo2001 View Post
I think to the OP's wider point:

The Homeless issue as been widely taken up as a cause by people whose motive is to bash government, rather than people who simply care about the homeless.

And by homeless in this case, we are talking about people who are on housing waiting lists.
Kind of, but further too and perhaps more importantly, I'm saying that to question personal accountability of anyone is completely outlawed in Irish society these days. Whatever, but it's not fair or just that their innocent children should be effected by their selfishness, petulance or poor life choices. That takes higher priority than them perhaps being called out on their sh*tty parenting and feeling ashamed (if that's even possible), or lack of.
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03-09-2019, 08:47   #15
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Originally Posted by Del2005 View Post
We're already doing this. A kid is a trouble maker in school and they get trips away and other rewards if they don't cause trouble. The kid who does their work and causes no problems doesn't get trips away or other rewards for not causing trouble. So the kids learn from an early age that the more trouble you cause the more free stuff is given to you. Then they see our "justice" system is the same so they start racking up the convictions.

Pretty much. Also, for the criminal and welfare class it's widely perceived that the only way to get a house of your own is to have many children and game the housing list system in that way. Inevitably this results in increasing numbers of children with parents in prison, as well as children listed as "homeless" by parents like Margaret Cash looking to skip the housing queue. The obvious answer is to alter the weighting criteria for the housing list towards those in employment, you'd wipe out this incentivised behaviour within a generation and ultimately prevent much child disadvantage, instead we spend money hand over fist to encourage it.
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