Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

If JM mentioned MoS and Cole is speaking for them, why wouldn't he say MoS rather than speak for all tabloids?

It could however be a spoof message purporting to come from the MoS.

Very interesting thread on Wright Bus NI current predicament.

Clearly major job losses. Brexit related but the charity donation made in 2017 is particularly .... Well....


https://twitter.com/dup_online/status/1175358929162907648

It really doesn't take a genius to decipher the polarity of the British Press now.

Telegraph - Hard Brexit and Rule Brittania.

Daily Mail, ditto,

Guardian, get with the program, Corbyn is toast, but we won't say it just yet, wait and see.

Anyone got another kind of Left leaning publication to counterract the RW ****e?

I am sorry to say it, but I am proud of my country in that we are very quick to see the rubbish spouted by our own Press, and will say it out loud too. Yep IT is right on and full of support for the immigrants and the Travellers for example. But it is dismissed by many for the rubbish that it is.

The Indo is full of carp most of the time too, Tabloid really, and most stuff is behind a login now. Not that we are missing much anyway.

Strazdas wrote: »

The Independent is left leaning and liberal and the Mirror is left wing

I would rate the Irish press light years ahead of the UK. Very few extremists writing for them and they tend to save opinion pieces for the Sunday editions only.

The English dailies are propaganda sheets and will think nothing of openly lying to and misleading their readers (except in the area of libelling and slandering individual people, where they have to be cautious because of the law).

I agree, there is money and influence behind their stance.

But on our own turf, there is still a total reluctance to state FACTS regarding immigrants and asylum seekers and Travellers, and so called homeless, etc. because it is not allowed. Ever. We cannot debate it in the open anymore.

We are muzzled by a left wing media really, be it TV, radio, newspaper or whatever.

We are not allowed to voice our views anymore. Am I overreacting to balance in reportage or what?

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It really doesn't take a genius to decipher the polarity of the British Press now.

Telegraph - Hard Brexit and Rule Brittania.

Daily Mail, ditto,

Guardian, get with the program, Corbyn is toast, but we won't say it just yet, wait and see.

Anyone got another kind of Left leaning publication to counterract the RW ****e?

I am sorry to say it, but I am proud of my country in that we are very quick to see the rubbish spouted by our own Press, and will say it out loud too. Yep IT is right on and full of support for the immigrants and the Travellers for example. But it is dismissed by many for the rubbish that it is.

The Indo is full of carp most of the time too, Tabloid really, and most stuff is behind a login now. Not that we are missing much anyway.

Guardian does go down the woke hole to often for my liking, but they have plenty of various lefty writers. Whether centre left or hard left you have choices.

New Stateman is pretty solid also tbf.

Steven Bush who is one of the best UK journos writes for them also.

listermint wrote: »

Very interesting thread on Wright Bus NI current predicament.

Clearly major job losses. Brexit related but the charity donation made in 2017 is particularly .... Well....


https://twitter.com/dup_online/status/1175358929162907648

Who in their right mind would bother with this basket case company? Any vaguely interested parties will let it collapse then pick over the remains with the liquidators. Northern Ireland “economy” is really in dire straits now

I know we like to think of Ireland as a great nation of writers, land of saints and scholars and what have you, but i have never thought there's any comparison between the quality of our media and the UK's. They have a tradition of great newspapers producing great reporters and writers and, well, we have the Irish Times and, really, not much else. Tribune had some good qualities back in the day but was in decline from around 1990s i thought. Have always unapologetically been a UK press reader - guardian mostly, not for the lefty liberal opinion pieces but for the likes of John Crace (not as good as his predecessor Simon Hoggart, but who could possibly be?), John Harris, Ian Jack (though seems to be gone now) and others in that vein. Financial Times also a serious newspaper and feel Times has been very good on brexit particularly, fair minded and incisive (Rachel Alexander stands out). I flick through New Statesman when i see it in library, Grace Blakely column first i go to. You have al the right wing tabloid rubbish, of course. Cant deny that.

I cant say anything terrible about the Irish Times, but it does bore me ever so slightly. I'd read O'Toole of course, then maybe Ferriter on the weekend and one or two others. But i dont see the quality of analysis or writing in a lot of its output and i'd still have it head and shoulders above the opposition.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I agree, there is money and influence behind their stance.

But on our own turf, there is still a total reluctance to state FACTS regarding immigrants and asylum seekers and Travellers, and so called homeless, etc. because it is not allowed. Ever. We cannot debate it in the open anymore.

We are muzzled by a left wing media really, be it TV, radio, newspaper or whatever.

We are not allowed to voice our views anymore. Am I overreacting to balance in reportage or what?

There are definitely right wing commentators out there : Niall Boylan, George Hook and Eilis O'Hanlon spring to mind

A right wing Irish press sounds nightmarish to me though. They'd probably be telling us that Brexit was a great idea, Donald Trump was a good guy, we should introduce strict immigration rules and ditch neutrality etc

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

I dont think having stricter immigration rules in Ireland should automatically be dismissed as extreme right wing thinking.

No it would be totally logical.

Strazdas wrote: »

I read a stat that UK tabloids are written with the vocabulary of that of an average 12 year old.

Standards have come on, then! :pac: I went to a "writing for professionals" seminar way back in the 90s - a course on how (as a professional) to write information leaflets, newsletters, etc for customers. We were invited to guess the average reading age of the average English Joe, and being the "high achievers" that we were, we all got it wrong. 10, we were told, and reminded that as an average, that meant a good proportion of our customer base would struggle to understand even that level.

I must say, it was a real pleasure to listen to the broadcast of the Supreme Court proceedings, and (apart from the pointless repetition of irrelevant niceties :rolleyes: ) to hear the Queen's English being correctly used in coherent sentences containing numerous words of at least four syllables!

I'm surprised Tom Watson hasn't walked away from labour at this point. It's an absolute disgrace that Corbyn supporters are doing just to force Tom out of the party.

You have to laugh how a party can sabotage themselves so much while the Tory's have never been so weak and falling a part but nope good old Corbyn and his cronies are more interested in being the opposition rather than be in Government.

What was supposed to be a conference to bring unity to Labour instead it's bitterness and spiteful all caused by Corbyn and his cronies

Labour is having it's own brexit chaos and it's turning into Tory level madness.

Wake up Labour and smell the coffee, Corbyn will never win an election and he's destroying your party.

CelticRambler wrote: »

It's all part of the "unfit for purpose"-ness of the English political system. Labour in the UK is not like Labour in Ireland. It'd be closer to an umbrella coalition of the (Irish) Labour party, PeopleBeforeProfit, the Anti-Austerity Alliance, Sinn Féin and a few independents.

Back in the good ol' days of a two-party state and FPTP, the only way anyone vaguely left-ward leaning could hope to get a seat in Westminster was to align themselves with the Labour label.

Now, we're seeing the complete breakdown of that old cohesion - on both sides of the right-left divide. There's nothing particularly peculiar about Labour "sabotaging" themselves in the face of the Tory disintegration - because both pseudo-parties come from the same obsolete tradition, and are subject to the same disruptive external forces.

Indeed. For the same reason, the Tory Party has so many hard right lunatic MPs is because it was the only available option for them to get into Parliament.

Predictably, the entire political system is collapsing under Brexit. It could only remain cohesive if politics was stable enough : Brexit has split the country in two (and is most appealing to the extremists of the left and right).

Headshot wrote: »

I'm surprised Tom Watson hasn't walked away from labour at this point. It's an absolute disgrace that Corbyn supporters are doing just to force Tom out of the party.

You have to laugh how a party can sabotage themselves so much while the Tory's have never been so weak and falling a part but nope good old Corbyn and his cronies are more interested in being the opposition rather than be in Government.

What was supposed to be a conference to bring unity to Labour instead it's bitterness and spiteful all caused by Corbyn and his cronies

Labour is having it's own brexit chaos and it's turning into Tory level madness.

Wake up Labour and smell the coffee, Corbyn will never win an election and he's destroying your party.

A lot of Corbyn's decisions have been decidedly lacklustre, but at least his current strategy of denying the Conservatives a GE, if he wants to stop a no-deal Brexit. He's correct not to trust Johnson on the election date, and the last thing the HoC needs to do with the last precious few days before Brexit is to be messing around with a VoNC and the chaos of trying to form some sort of new consensus.

Anyway, Labour's confused position is no surprise. It's a reflection of the fact that their base is quite split on the matter of Brexit, and that split not only manifests among the wider party, but among the leaders. This is the problem of Brexit for both parties in a nutshell. The Conservatives have reacted to this by enacting a purge, basically. Labour haven't gotten quite that far..... yet.

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

yep. couldn't agree more with that analysis. Corbyn has already become a major liability to Labour as far as I can see. He hasn't got a hope in hell of winning any election and will probably end up destroying Labour completely. One only has to consider the amount of Labour MPs who have already defecting to the Lib Dems because of the toxicity of being associated with Corbyn. It's like two steps forward and ten steps backwards for them at the moment.:rolleyes:

I read the thought that the move to oust Watson was much more to do with the future than anything. If Labour loses out in the next election then Corbyn will have to resign and if Watson is still Deputy then he becomes leader until a new one is elected. Momentum wants to remove him and have a left leaning deputy in charge to continue the pull to the left, forgetting that Labour is a broad church as others have mentioned.

So what we are seeing is the internal squabblings of a party that knows it has a busted flush with Corbyn as he is not liked by the majority of non-Labour voters out there. But in their haste to shore up the future they are screwing up the present, and breaking any momentum they may have. Well done Momentum.

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Whilst the EU may well grant an extension, it's impossible to see anything passing HoC (post election) such is the level of division.

There are two ways out: the Tories get a big majority, then the week before the new Brexit Day (Jan 31 2020 for example) they put May's deal to the house of commons and say Deal or No Deal. This was Johnson's plan for October, but he didn't have the numbers for it to work. It could work get a deal through with a big enough majority, or it could get No Deal Brexit finally done.


The other way out is Labour/LibDems/SNP have the numbers for a Unity government which gets in and holds a referendum, May's deal vs. Remain, Remain wins and they revoke A50, or Leave wins again and they ratify May's deal.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in.
- Douglas Adams

I always loved this, but i never realised how much of an allegory it was for FPTP and british politics. Like i knew Adams was poking fun at them but this just perfectly reflects the way they got to the current situation with the likes or mogg francois etc being part of the tory party with pretty much guranteed seats

Deleted User wrote: »

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has told Sophy Ridge on Sunday that a 'No-deal Brexit' will mean a hard border on the island of Ireland.

Is that Junker saying times up to Ireland, we have tried to stand by you but now its time you moved on the Backstop.

No, it was always the reality that a no-deal would mean a border on the island eventually. The question in a no-deal would be how long before we start putting up infrastructure. The plan would be that the chaos in Dover would make the UK move long before we start preparations for physical infrastructure.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has told Sophy Ridge on Sunday that a 'No-deal Brexit' will mean a hard border on the island of Ireland.

Is that Junker saying times up to Ireland, we have tried to stand by you but now its time you moved on the Backstop.

Thats nothing new, weve known for a long time that no deal brexit absolutely requires a border. Our place in the Single Market is far more important to our survival from brexit related problems than having no border.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has told Sophy Ridge on Sunday that a 'No-deal Brexit' will mean a hard border on the island of Ireland.

Is that Junker saying times up to Ireland, we have tried to stand by you but now its time you moved on the Backstop.

I mean after all this time.

All this time week in week out.

How do individuals still think this is new , a revelation or a change in direction.

Media consumption has alot to answer for.