Phoenix Park Road Closed

beauf · 10-09-2017 11:07am

horse7 wrote: »

It would be far better to have a dual carriageway through the park. At the very least Dublin bus route using it. This at least could keep the deer to one side of the park. There's plenty of park there for people and animals to enjoy.

The point is if there has to be a road one around the perimeter has far less impact than one down the middle.

If you are going to ban cars. Then why not pedestrianise say a 5 mile radius of city centre. Then there is no need for cars to use the park for commuting.

horse7 · 10-09-2017 11:21am

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know if you're on a wind up but it's a ridiculous idea.

May sound ridiculous but the most obvious and practical one. Ridiculous is bringing a luas from the city to Cabra west.

monument · 10-09-2017 12:01pm

Some people in the suburbs need to start accepting some realities.

The number of cars entering Dublin City Centre (defined as inside the canals) has dropped from 89,500 in 1997 to 51,908 in 2016. In the same time frame the number of people entering the area has jumped from 179,557 to 202,001.

That's a 37,592 decrease in cars crossing the canals in 19 years, but the number of people crossings the canals increasing by 22,444.

The number of people living within the city centre also continues to increase and that cannot be supported by allowing cars to remain with such a percentage of road and street space.

Maybe some car tunnel could be built and justified somewhere, but the reality is that it would be wasteful to build such in a park in the direction of a city centre route where car capacity has just been cut, is going to be cut further when Luas Cross City is an active part of the green line and will be cut again when/if the Liffey Cycle Route goes ahead.

monument · 10-09-2017 12:05pm

horse7 wrote: »

May sound ridiculous but the most obvious and practical one. Ridiculous is bringing a luas from the city to Cabra west.

How exactly is it ridiculous?

The Luas Cross City route use the disused Broadstone railway cutting and serves what is likely the higher density of housing and employment than any other few km of Luas route.

Broombridge will not be its final end point, it will be extended to Finglas in the future.

beauf wrote: »

If you are going to ban cars. Then why not pedestrianise say a 5 mile radius of city centre. Then there is no need for cars to use the park for commuting.

Because nobody is banning cars, there is a justified reduction in capacity but access will be kept for those who need it..

beauf · 10-09-2017 12:25pm

monument wrote: »

....Because nobody is banning cars, there is a justified reduction in capacity but access will be kept for those who need it..

Thats fine.

But there is a lack of realization that this part of Dublin has restricted public transport links, and the road network is very restricted. I'm saying that from the perspective of someone who rarely drives.

For example Blanch Center to City Center via the park. Is a very poor route for inexperienced cyclists. Yet cycling is the perfect alternative for people on this route. The train is ok, good parking for cars and bikes, but it really needs more capacity on the train.

monument · 10-09-2017 4:18pm

beauf wrote: »

Thats fine.

But there is a lack of realization that this part of Dublin has restricted public transport links, and the road network is very restricted. I'm saying that from the perspective of someone who rarely drives.

For example Blanch Center to City Center via the park. Is a very poor route for inexperienced cyclists. Yet cycling is the perfect alternative for people on this route. The train is ok, good parking for cars and bikes, but it really needs more capacity on the train.

Where exactly is there an unrestricted road network between any suburb and the city centre? Dublin 15 has Dublin Bus and Commuter Rail -- more options than many places have closer to the city.

It's also to get a bus upgrade in the form of BRT and eventually Dart, although the latter is likely a long way off.

The Liffey Cycle Route will sort the worst part of cycling between the D15 and the city centre and more can follow.

beauf · 10-09-2017 4:53pm

monument wrote: »

Where exactly is there an unrestricted road network between any suburb and the city centre?... .

Most have a multitude of alternative routes if you close a road.

A lot of parks in the UK you have to walk to them, and walk everywhere in them. They should just that. Make people use public transport to get to it, and no parking in it.

ThisRegard · 10-09-2017 6:28pm

beauf wrote: »

Most have a multitude of alternative routes if you close a road.

A lot of parks in the UK you have to walk to them, and walk everywhere in them. They should just that. Make people use public transport to get to it, and no parking in it.

Try getting a bunch of kids to park with a variety of bikes and prams via public transport, or better yet, as you'll be familiar, cycle with young kids to it.

People are trying to solve a non existent problem with the park. There's no issue with its recreational use and a destination as is.

The problem seems to be when people want to use it as a waypoint to get elsewhere.

Edit, forgot to add, it'll be fun getting dogs to and fro, particularly after they've taken a dip or rolled in deer crap, on public transport.

monument · 10-09-2017 6:29pm

beauf wrote: »

Most have a multitude of alternative routes if you close a road.

D15 residents currently has the following ways to get to the city centre:

The park
N3/R147
R806
R109
N2/R135 via the M50
N1 via M50
M50 including the Port Tunnel (tolled)
R805
N4 / R148 via the M50 (tolled)
N4 / R148 via Lucan / R149/R121
...And other both tolled and non-tolled routes depending on which route is best to get them where they are going.

It's really the the island that some people make it out to be.

beauf wrote: »

A lot of parks in the UK you have to walk to them, and walk everywhere in them. They should just that. Make people use public transport to get to it, and no parking in it.

In fairness, are you talking about parks the size of the Phoenix Park?

lucernarian · 11-09-2017 10:51am

monument wrote: »

Where exactly is there an unrestricted road network between any suburb and the city centre? Dublin 15 has Dublin Bus and Commuter Rail -- more options than many places have closer to the city.

It's also to get a bus upgrade in the form of BRT and eventually Dart, although the latter is likely a long way off.

The Liffey Cycle Route will sort the worst part of cycling between the D15 and the city centre and more can follow.

The most difficult part of cycling from D15 is D15 itself - the council's attitude to cycling and building sufficient road space to begin with is frankly negligent. Some of that is Dublin County Council legacy but no one put a gun to Fingal's head to continue a completely unsustainable development that is Blanch shopping centre, or the various distributor road designs.

It's also worth noting that D15 has a colossal size and is more comparable to somewhere like D24 than a closer suburb of Dublin (which arguably already has it easier with a council that cares a bit more about cycling, and inherently is a shorter journey for many commuters.

In West Dublin, the Palmerstown "bypass" brings people near enough the centre by bus or car in large volumes. The Naas Road does something similar in SW Dublin. Drumcondra/Swords Road now has pretty much continuous bus lanes on both sides. The Stillorgan Bypass and most of the 145 bus route has a lot of capacity too. I think somewhere like Knocklyon and Rathfarnham has it worse, but doesn't have to compete with through traffic or commuting from further beyond, to the same extent as arterial routes have in D15.

magicbastarder · 11-09-2017 11:00am

speaking of traffic in D15, i was astounded when i heard that lidl had been granted PP to build right in the middle of castleknock village. from a traffic point of view, that seems insane.

beauf · 11-09-2017 11:33am

Yeah you've duplicated routes on that. It can be summarized as follows.

I've edited the list

monument wrote: »

D15 residents currently has the following ways to get to the city centre:

[*]The park (closed according to this thread)
Navan rd (two lanes restricted to single lane) the only main road.

R806 (rat run though residential area - restricted Blackhorse Ave narrow )

R109 (rat run residential area restricted Chapelizod narrow )

[*]M50/N4 / R148 via Lucan (basically go to another area with better access

...

So you've one main road single lane. Two narrow back roads, both constrained by tiny villages, or just give up and go laterally down the motorway another area, because they have better access, via the M50 car park.

beauf · 11-09-2017 11:37am

magicbastarder wrote: »

speaking of traffic in D15, i was astounded when i heard that lidl had been granted PP to build right in the middle of castleknock village. from a traffic point of view, that seems insane.

Yeah its a bottle neck too narrow for even a cycle lane. So lets put a shopping center exactly at that point. Makes perfect sense.

There's loads of empty land around the other end of Castleknock on the N3. Most people will drive to it anyway. A shopping center on a dual carriage way with a direct link to the train and the M50. yeah bad idea.

beauf · 11-09-2017 11:43am

lucernarian wrote: »

...In West Dublin, the Palmerstown "bypass" brings people near enough the centre by bus or car in large volumes. The Naas Road does something similar in SW Dublin. Drumcondra/Swords Road now has pretty much continuous bus lanes on both sides. The Stillorgan Bypass and most of the 145 bus route has a lot of capacity too. I think somewhere like Knocklyon and Rathfarnham has it worse, but doesn't have to compete with through traffic or commuting from further beyond, to the same extent as arterial routes have in D15.

Palmerstown bypass (2-3 lanes)
Naas rd - (2-3 lanes)
Drumcondra rd is similar to Navan Rd. But then its 5k from the city vs 14k, even rathfarnman is closer. Knocklyon is what 10k.

The future is far less cars in the city center. But closing the park to through traffic has a big impact, lets no pretend it doesn't. if it doesn't effect you, then its hardly an issue for you is it.

I don't see the rational of longer orbital routes WITHIN the park as having less impact on the amenity routes, than shorter ones. If you want to restrict the volume. Put a timed light on the shorter less obtrusive route. Making it a longer route within the park is counter productive.

trellheim · 11-09-2017 12:41pm

Would you not cycle in along the Royal canal ?

Pinch Flat · 11-09-2017 12:45pm

trellheim wrote: »

Would you not cycle in along the Royal canal ?

Depends where you're coming from. The canal path along thye Royal Canal is still in rag order from Porterstown bridge to Castleknock. Not suitable for cycling at all - a few manage it on MTB's. But for recreational / commuting, especially in the wet / winter, it's dangerous.

You've got the anti-social elements to content with then around Broombridge. Depending on the time of day / year i.e. darker evenings, I wouldn't be comfortable cycling that. And I;m a 6'2" bloke!

. Be interesting to see if the Luas depot / stop improves or other wise this situation.

beauf · 11-09-2017 1:53pm

Even further up closer to phibsboro there's groups who drink under the bridges. On a good day there a decent amount of other people using it. Runners and walkers etc. I wouldn't use it in the dark myself. Also its a lot slower than through the Park.

On a nice day especially in the morning its a nice (longer alternative). But only to castleknock train station on the way home, as said above the road is easier in D.15

lucernarian · 11-09-2017 2:13pm

beauf wrote: »

Palmerstown bypass (2-3 lanes)
Naas rd - (2-3 lanes)
Drumcondra rd is similar to Navan Rd. But then its 5k from the city vs 14k, even rathfarnman is closer. Knocklyon is what 10k.

The future is far less cars in the city center. But closing the park to through traffic has a big impact, lets no pretend it doesn't. if it doesn't effect you, then its hardly an issue for you is it.

I don't see the rational of longer orbital routes WITHIN the park as having less impact on the amenity routes, than shorter ones. If you want to restrict the volume. Put a timed light on the shorter less obtrusive route. Making it a longer route within the park is counter productive.

I don't understand what in my post you're replying to. It's worth noting that the Navan Road has only 3 lanes continuously running, so one bus lane to play around with.

I suspect the weekend closures will happen more and more, but I can't see how it could happen on weekdays without serious impact on Navan Road residents.

In general, is it feasible to widen blackhorse avenue on the western side, even where the 37 runs?

beauf · 11-09-2017 2:32pm

I quoted it

no sure what you are asking me.

Blackhorse avenue seems under constant roadworks. Last I was on it, there was signal controlled one way system on it. I usually avoid it. So many speed bumps narrow twisty and lots of traffic. Would seem crazy to do anything with it, when not 50m away is a duplicate road with no width restrictions. Its just over the wall in the park. They closed both before at the same time, just because they could. (Public pressure I assume had it reopened).

Anyway they don't want cars in the city or the park. Which is fine. They just go a illogical way to achieve it.

magicbastarder · 11-09-2017 2:44pm

blackhorse avenue also has that spot at the bottom of nephin road which seems to flood relatively regularly. i've heard stories that there's an underground stream there, which usually point to this house as evidence - it's much more obvious in the flesh, but check out the line of the roof compared to the houses beside it:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3628623,-6.3126632,3a,75y,9h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sytfhVXWNMl53x9rXhg-V1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

monument · 11-09-2017 6:05pm

beauf wrote: »

Yeah you've duplicated routes on that. It can be summarized as follows.

I've edited the list

So you've one main road single lane. Two narrow back roads, both constrained by tiny villages, or just give up and go laterally down the motorway another area, because they have better access, via the M50 car park.

"just give up and go laterally down the motorway another area"

In other words, use a ring road as they are supposed to be used -- for trips like Blanch to the Port Tunnel or down the N1... that's not giving up that's using the motorway to avoid driving via the urban areas where people live as much as practice and, in many cases, also taking the quickest route to parts of the city centre.

Is the island mentality a requirement of living in D15?

beauf · 11-09-2017 6:35pm

Seems like you're the one suggesting extreme routes for D15 only. Also ignoring large differences in road capacity and distance,not to mention current congestion. There certainly is an island mentality, but its not from me.

I reckon if the quays ever get a cycling infrastructure the opw will close the park to through traffic shortly after.

Phoenix Park Road Closed

Comments