If all cyclists waited at the red light...

Chips Lovell · 10-08-2018 11:47am

The best bell I've ever had isn't actually mounted to a bike. It's on my sambuca trowel:

*Every good host should own a sambuca trowel

07Lapierre · 10-08-2018 11:51am

The last Bell i owned was on a Raleigh "Dodo" and i was 4 years old! i didnt use it then and I've no intention of using one now

tomasrojo · 10-08-2018 11:53am

Rechuchote wrote: »

Most of the ones you can buy here or in Britain are aluminium and have a dull sound that disappears into traffic noise.

Is the one you got in France made of brass?

two wheels good · 10-08-2018 11:57am

buffalo wrote: »

Stick it under your saddle so. :pac:

More seriously, a bike bell shouldn't be used in the same manner as a car horn, so the comparison isn't really relevant.

Shouldn't they be used in exactly the same manner, with the same purpose: To let another road user know of your presence?
Unless of course you think the purpose of a car horn is to rebuke other road users or vent your anger.

I think a cycle bell is very useful on any route shared with pedestrians.

Rechuchote · 10-08-2018 12:11pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Is the one you got in France made of brass?

Steel, I think. It cost €7.

two wheels good wrote: »

Shouldn't they be used in exactly the same manner, with the same purpose: To let another road user know of your presence?
Unless of course you think the purpose of a car horn is to rebuke other road users or vent your anger.

I think a cycle bell is very useful on any route shared with pedestrians.

Surely car horns are supposed to be used to warn specifically of danger?

Bike bells can be used to warn pedestrians of your presence when you're coming towards them on a shared path; however, they're not as much use now that so many people wander the streets and the pathways wearing headphones.

tomasrojo · 10-08-2018 12:19pm

I think horns and bells for whatever vehicle are meant to alert others to your approach or presence. Since car horns are much louder, I guess they can be used to get the attention of other drivers, but then you have to Marcel Marceau to say what the hazard or whatever is.

seamus · 10-08-2018 12:24pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

Surely car horns are supposed to be used to warn specifically of danger?

This comes from 1961, so it may have since been changed, but the road traffic act is such a mess, it's hard to tell:

86. (1) Subject to the following sub-articles of this article, the driver of every vehicle which is required by article 28 of these Regulations to be fitted with an audible warning device shall, whenever necessary in a public place, give audible and sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle by sounding the device.

(2) A person shall not use, or permit to be used, any device provided on a vehicle for the purpose of giving audible warning except when such use is reasonably necessary on grounds of safety.

(3) (a) A person shall not, between the hours of 11.30 p.m. and 7 a.m., sound any audible warning device provided on a vehicle while the vehicle is on a road to which a speed limit of 30 miles per hour or 40 miles per hour under Section 45 or 46 of the Act applies:

Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to a vehicle used for fire brigade, ambulance, or police purposes.

(b) Where a person is charged with a contravention of paragraph (a) of this sub-article, it shall be a good defence to the charge to show that the use of the audible warning device was necessary for the purpose of avoiding immediate danger.

In shorthand, the horn can be used when "reasonably necessary on grounds of safety" between 7am and 11:30pm and only for "avoiding immediate danger" outside of that.

Whereas a bike bell can be used for any reason, even if there's no safety issue. Or more correctly, there are no rules on when and how a bell should be used, simply that one must be fitted to non-racing bikes.

buffalo · 10-08-2018 12:25pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think horns and bells for whatever vehicle are meant to alert others to your approach or presence. Since car horns are much louder, I guess they can be used to get the attention of other drivers, but then you have to Marcel Marceau to say what the hazard or whatever is.

I used to think of bells as replacing car engine noise, but I think of bells as more like car indicators. They're used to alert people of your approach when they might cross your path.

Sure, you can get away without using them, but don't be surprised if someone pops out in front of you and you have to hit the brakes.

(My analogy is flawed due to the presence of bike indicators, also known as 'arms'.)

tomasrojo · 10-08-2018 12:35pm

seamus wrote: »

In shorthand, the horn can be used when "reasonably necessary on grounds of safety" between 7am and 11:30pm and only for "avoiding immediate danger" outside of that.

And the bit about roads with certain speed limits is denoting residential roads, I guess, so you don't wake up people sounding your horn.

seamus wrote: »

Whereas a bike bell can be used for any reason, even if there's no safety issue. Or more correctly, there are no rules on when and how a bell should be used, simply that one must be fitted to non-racing bikes.

It's very thin on detail alright: "a bell capable of being heard at a reasonable distance". You'd think they'd have just plucked a number out of the air. One furlong, or whatever weird unit they were using at the time.

07Lapierre · 10-08-2018 1:33pm

Ok this is about lights but it does show how trivial the law considers lawbreaking by cyclists:

“in 1981 I had to explain to my boss that I was in court the following day, with a frown inquired into my crime, I presented him with my charge sheet and his frown was replaced with laughter and smiles, like you Joe, the charges were for a bike I had no light,front or back, no reflectors on either wheels,etc,upon leaving the bosses office, to this day I remember him saying with a smirk that I could be facing 5 years in prison, when I did attend the court, the garda that charged me wasn't there, the judge commented that maybe the garda didn't show up to save himself the embarrassment of such a trivial charge and struck it out of court, letting me go with no consequence,.“

tomasrojo · 10-08-2018 1:53pm

Where's that from?

EDIT: the whole court rigmarole was the rationale for fixed-charge notices. Cyclists were rarely punished, because the courts kept looking at the Gardaí who brought cycling offences to court as time wasters.

Lumen · 10-08-2018 2:04pm

buffalo wrote: »

I used to think of bells as replacing car engine noise

This is what spokey dokeys are for.

Also useful for alerting passing ships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV6DfWfS9p4

tomasrojo · 10-08-2018 2:04pm

Motorists do tend to go on about red-light discipline as if it's a sign of their keener sense of citizenship engagement, which is almost as silly as cyclists priding themselves on keeping to speed limits. Cyclists don't get any praise for keeping to speed limits, because it's obvious their latitude for breaking speed limits is small. However, the latitude for motorists to break lights is pretty narrow as well, because lanes are plugged for motorists, once just one stops.

Speeding motorists are a factor in a larger number of serious collisions than cyclists breaking lights, but it's not treated as a moral failing. It's not exactly approved of, but many people, even many who don't drive, do regard motorists getting fined for doing 50km/h in a 30km/h zone as a bit ridiculous, and only offences along the lines of 80km/h in a 30km/h zone seem to attract much opprobrium.

07Lapierre · 10-08-2018 2:34pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

only offences along the lines of 80km/h in a 30km/h zone seem to attract much opprobrium.

And even then most comments are about how ridiculous the 30k speed limit is!

stevek93 · 10-08-2018 4:04pm

I cycyle to work everyday 8km each way 16 in total so I see a lot of cyclist breaking red lights. It's really frustrating when I am sitting at a red light and ahole cyclist whizzes past not a bother to them. I was recently at a red light and 3 cyclist were moaning and grunting behind me wanting me to move so they can break the lights. I don't understand it what time do you save by taking these risk? Is your life really worth an extra 3 minutes saved during your journey? Or do they not notice the lights in good time?

mbradso2003 · 10-08-2018 4:12pm

I cycle, drive and take Luas depending if im picking up from creche or going to college after work.

On days where I take Luas I cross road where ACC bank used to be facing the barge pub over the canal cycle path. Even when crossing on green man (which is red bicycle for cycle track) not one cyclist yields to the pedestrians who obviously have right of way. Only a matter of time before pedestrian is hit by cyclist at that junction.

Wishbone Ash · 10-08-2018 4:16pm

stevek93 wrote: »

I cycyle to work everyday 8km each way 16 in total so I see a lot of cyclist breaking red lights. It's really frustrating when I am sitting at a red light and ahole cyclist whizzes past not a bother to them....

You shouldn't let it be frustrating just because you have stopped. To me that's a bit like getting frustrated paying for goods in a shop because some people shop lift.

stevek93 · 10-08-2018 4:18pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You shouldn't let it be frustrating just because you have stopped. To me that's a bit like getting frustrated paying for goods in a shop because some people shop lift.

I'm pretty sure it frustrates drivers as well...

tomasrojo · 10-08-2018 4:47pm

stevek93 wrote: »

I don't understand it what time do you save by taking these risk? Is your life really worth an extra 3 minutes saved during your journey? Or do they not notice the lights in good time?

I suspect they think they're saving more time than they are. As you say, probably a max. of maybe three, maybe five minutes over about 10km.

tomasrojo · 10-08-2018 4:48pm

mbradso2003 wrote: »

I cycle, drive and take Luas depending if im picking up from creche or going to college after work.

On days where I take Luas I cross road where ACC bank used to be facing the barge pub over the canal cycle path. Even when crossing on green man (which is red bicycle for cycle track) not one cyclist yields to the pedestrians who obviously have right of way. Only a matter of time before pedestrian is hit by cyclist at that junction.

Whatever about sneaky lefts at red and sneaking along the side at a t-junction, blowing through pedestrians is top-drawer asshole behaviour.

07Lapierre · 10-08-2018 4:52pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Where's that from?

EDIT: the whole court rigmarole was the rationale for fixed-charge notices. Cyclists were rarely punished, because the courts kept looking at the Gardaí who brought cycling offences to court as time wasters.

Facebook: a reply to this post: "Got this on way home after baby Sitting in Donnycarney in 1962, Got Fined one Shilling"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/dublindown/

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 10-08-2018 4:54pm

The law regarding the red light for cyclists should be amended. It is total nonsense for a cyclist to wait at a red light, knowing that there is no traffic coming. This is why the law is flouted, it is a ridiculous law, and is not respected because of this.
BTW, I'm a motorist, haven't cycled for 40 years!

tomasrojo · 10-08-2018 4:54pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Facebook: a reply to this post: "Got this on way home after baby Sitting in Donnycarney in 1962, Got Fined one Shilling"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/dublindown/

Funny it mentions spoke reflectors. I don't think they've ever been mandatory.

doozerie · 10-08-2018 4:55pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

And even then most comments are about how ridiculous the 30k speed limit is!

And there is the predictable "it's like shooting fish in a barrel" moan too, when it comes to speeding fines.

I've never understood that one. Speed limit signs are plentiful, as are signs that indicate you are approaching a speed camera area. Shooting fish in a barrel? If the fish were to choose to place themselves in the barrel, provide guns to the people looking in, paint bullseyes on their own chests, and swim around waving "SHOOT ME!" banners, then yes, it's exactly like shooting fish in a barrel. But, you know, those fish would have deserved it, to be honest.

doozerie · 10-08-2018 4:59pm

Re bells, as I discovered while casually looking for a bell for my daughter's bike recently, it's a niche cycling rabbit hole that I never even knew existed.

To those in the know, asking them for "a bell" is as ludicrous as walking into a bike shop and asking for "a bike", or walking into a car dealership and saying "I'd like a car. What type? Oh, a blue one please".

doozerie · 10-08-2018 5:03pm

xsyojhgt43f8z5 wrote: »

The law regarding the red light for cyclists should be amended. It is total nonsense for a cyclist to wait at a red light, knowing that there is no traffic coming. This is why the law is flouted, it is a ridiculous law, and is not respected because of this.
BTW, I'm a motorist, haven't cycled for 40 years!

I'm afraid that various skills have been lost to us cyclists since your day, omnipotence being one.

I'd mourn the loss of it, but I just don't know how to.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 10-08-2018 5:06pm

doozerie wrote:

I'm afraid that various skills have been lost to us cyclists since your day, omnipotence being one.

Cyclists shouldn't be cycling if they can't observe around them.

stevek93 · 10-08-2018 6:23pm

xsyojhgt43f8z5 wrote: »

The law regarding the red light for cyclists should be amended. It is total nonsense for a cyclist to wait at a red light, knowing that there is no traffic coming. This is why the law is flouted, it is a ridiculous law, and is not respected because of this.
BTW, I'm a motorist, haven't cycled for 40 years!

Complete hogwash a cyclist must wait a red light regardless of what you may think, the rules of the road are there to keep you safe. You don't cycle or haven't in 40 years I cycle 80km a week I have also noticed cars will respect you a lot more when you abide by the rules of the road. It makes for more safe and comfortable environment for each road user.

magicbastarder · 10-08-2018 6:34pm

stevek93 wrote: »

I have also noticed cars will respect you a lot more when you abide by the rules of the road.

how do you detect respect from a car?

tomasrojo · 10-08-2018 6:49pm

stevek93 wrote: »

I have also noticed cars will respect you a lot more when you abide by the rules of the road.

There is a certain minority of drivers who get infuriated by you following the rules on a bike if it delays them in some way. Such as waiting at a left-turn traffic light they want to break.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 10-08-2018 6:55pm

Why should you have to remain at a red light when you can clearly see there's no traffic coming?

The law is ignored because it doesn't make sense.

DavyD_83 · 10-08-2018 7:45pm

When did civil disobedience stop being a valid form of protest? You can obey bad laws and lobby for a long as you want.alaw becoming obsolete vacate everybody ignored it and agrees it is nonsense of far more likely to actually bring about change in the rules, or at least a semi - formal agreement that it can be ignored.

07Lapierre · 10-08-2018 7:57pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Funny it mentions spoke reflectors. I don't think they've ever been mandatory.

It's the equivalent of hi viz jackets today. Not a legal requirement, but Don't wear one (even though your club kit has reflective elements and is bright red!) and you are not doing enough to make yourself visible!

07Lapierre · 10-08-2018 8:14pm

xsyojhgt43f8z5 wrote: »

The law regarding the red light for cyclists should be amended. It is total nonsense for a cyclist to wait at a red light, knowing that there is no traffic coming. This is why the law is flouted, it is a ridiculous law, and is not respected because of this.
BTW, I'm a motorist, haven't cycled for 40 years!

But the problem is, if all cyclists thought like that, we have to stop at every GREEN light, in case "the brother" was cycling home in the opposite direction!

Lumen · 10-08-2018 8:32pm

Are there threads on Motors bemoaning the fact that nobody sticks to the speed limit?

Carawaystick · 10-08-2018 9:54pm

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The thing about ignoring the law and instead adopting your own interpretation of what's "dangerous" and what's "safe", is that it's entirely subjective.

Lots of legal things are completely unsafe also, like stopping in an asl when a hgv has you in the drivers blind spot, or using a cycle lane on the left, like the rsa say you must do when you're turning right, or using a cycle lane that will end badly and dangerously

stevek93 · 10-08-2018 10:43pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

how do you detect respect from a car?

Yes when you follow the rules of the road and not act the maggot traffic will gve way to you or at least in my case what I have noticed if you do something reckless it just gives everyone a problem including yourself why we have this big taboo about cyclist.

07Lapierre · 10-08-2018 11:35pm

doozerie wrote: »

And there is the predictable "it's like shooting fish in a barrel" moan too, when it comes to speeding fines.

I've never understood that one. Speed limit signs are plentiful, as are signs that indicate you are approaching a speed camera area. Shooting fish in a barrel? If the fish were to choose to place themselves in the barrel, provide guns to the people looking in, paint bullseyes on their own chests, and swim around waving "SHOOT ME!" banners, then yes, it's exactly like shooting fish in a barrel. But, you know, those fish would have deserved it, to be honest.

Took a few comments but..regular as clockwork!

http://www.thejournal.ie/driver-speeding-4175590-Aug2018/

Get Real · 10-08-2018 11:56pm

I was hit by a cyclist who broke a red light. I was crossing at a green man.

He didn't mean to do it, he had probably broke reds a thousand times, as I had in the past and as many cyclists do.

My skull was cracked open, and still have a bald patch from it. If it was a motor that hit me, his insurance would have covered it. Alas, no insurance. Luckily I've my own and I ticked it off as an accident, one of those things that isn't ideal, but just happens. No hard feelings.

However if that was my grandfather/someone frail, pretty sure at the speed it took place, it could have been deadly serious.

I view it that all cyclists(including me, the handful of times I cycle) should ask "if this was a motorbike, would I be doing (insert action here). Generally, the answer is always " no".

You could hit someone/hit into another car yourself at a fair speed that would do damage. Doesn't matter if the way ahead is clear, in that case would you just drive a motorbike through reds all the time because you deemed it safe enough to proceed ahead? If you're not willing to accept yourself as part of road traffic, don't cycle.

tomasrojo · 11-08-2018 12:12am

DavyD_83 wrote: »

When did civil disobedience stop being a valid form of protest? You can obey bad laws and lobby for a long as you want.alaw becoming obsolete vacate everybody ignored it and agrees it is nonsense of far more likely to actually bring about change in the rules, or at least a semi - formal agreement that it can be ignored.

I think with civil disobedience you want to be caught breaking the law and even punished to highlight its injustice. Red-light jumpers, though some might think the law unjust, by and large just want to keep going.

tomfoolery60 · 11-08-2018 9:33am

stevek93 wrote: »

I don't understand it what time do you save by taking these risk? Is your life really worth an extra 3 minutes saved during your journey? Or do they not notice the lights in good time?

It's not really that simple - the roads and light sequences are designed for cars and trucks. If you need to make a right turn up at the next junction it is often impossible to do so safely without getting ahead of the aggressively accelerating traffic by breaking a light (safely obviously).

I will always take the best option for my safety as I don't have a box of steel surrounding me - if that involves breaking a light is that really so hard to understand? It's harder to understand the "stickler for the rules" cyclists imo - those waiting doggedly before the white line beside a left turning truck that had advanced beyond it for example. This is a situation when to stick to letter of the law is to take a massive risk.

Dublin cycling has a piece some might find illuminating:

https://twitter.com/dublincycling/status/1023110744844509184

RayCun · 11-08-2018 10:11am

tomfoolery60 wrote: »

It's not really that simple - the roads and light sequences are designed for cars and trucks. If you need to make a right turn up at the next junction it is often impossible to do so safely without getting ahead of the aggressively accelerating traffic by breaking a light (safely obviously).

Because you can't move to the right through moving traffic?
If you're already stopped at the lights, why not take the position in the right at that junction?

tomfoolery60 wrote: »

those waiting doggedly before the white line beside a left turning truck that had advanced beyond it for example.

I'd completely understand someone getting out of the way in that situation.
It seems to come up a lot more in this kind of discussion than in real life though.

jacob2 · 11-08-2018 10:26am

going through red lights while there on there phones or texting how could u stop a bike if your not looking ahead or a filter light to take that right turn wen bikes keep going or some cyclists coming down the opposite side of the road forgetting that we drive on the left in this country

work · 11-08-2018 10:51am

mloc123 wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

Dunno about anyone else, but I see this all the time at rush hour.

Same, cycle along the grand canal any morning and each traffic light is packed with groups of cyclists stopped (including those that insist on jumping to the top despite being so slow :rolleyes:)

OMG this must be the No1 annoying any cyclist can do. Where are their manners. If you skip you better at least try to move your fat ass when the light goes green. If you did that in a car you'dprobably be followed home and beaten. Thankfully those that do it are minority .

work · 11-08-2018 10:51am

sorry posted by mistake twice

Wishbone Ash · 11-08-2018 12:36pm

tomfoolery60 wrote: »

If you need to make a right turn up at the next junction it is often impossible to do so safely without getting ahead of the aggressively accelerating traffic by breaking a light (safely obviously).....

I've never felt the need to break a red light when making a right turn. If for some reason I can't manage it under normal circumstances, I stay on the left and use the pedestrian crossing (if there is one) to get across.

It's actually a lot easier to make a right turn from a junction controller by traffic lights than to get into the right lane of a fast moving dual carriageway to make the third exit off a roundabout.

AndrewJRenko · 11-08-2018 12:48pm

jacob2 wrote: »

going through red lights while there on there phones or texting how could u stop a bike if your not looking ahead or a filter light to take that right turn wen bikes keep going or some cyclists coming down the opposite side of the road forgetting that we drive on the left in this country

Did you find it hard to find the full stops or other punctuation marks on the keyboard while you were driving?

work wrote: »

OMG this must be the No1 annoying any cyclist can do. Where are their manners. If you skip you better at least try to move your fat ass when the light goes green. If you did that in a car you'dprobably be followed home and beaten. Thankfully those that do it are minority .

If I have to pass them a 2nd time, I usually ask them to 'please don't make me pass you out a 3rd time'. Behaviour will never change if you just ignore it.

Pinch Flat · 11-08-2018 12:49pm

Lumen wrote: »

Are there threads on Motors bemoaning the fact that nobody sticks to the speed limit?

Yeah looks this one attracted a bit of attention

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057488458/1/#post96884029

tomasrojo · 11-08-2018 2:09pm

Lumen wrote: »

Are there threads on Motors bemoaning the fact that nobody sticks to the speed limit?

"Guys, there are 150,000 uninsured drivers in Ireland. We really have to get our act together. Nobody will treat us with any respect, and deservedly so, unless we stop this."

tomasrojo · 11-08-2018 2:12pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If I have to pass them a 2nd time, I usually ask them to 'please don't make me pass you out a 3rd time'. Behaviour will never change if you just ignore it.

I asked a teenager to stop passing me at the lights, as he was ambling between lights, and it was a really narrow road. So he passed me again,breaking the lights again, turned into a housing estate and danced around singing "I won! I won!"

So, to cut a long story short, I've never tried that again.

If all cyclists waited at the red light...

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