BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Qrt · 18-06-2019 10:15am

cgcsb wrote: »

https://assets.gov.ie/10207/c8f59b1734af460fa310ddbe20e01388.pdf

I see it now, page 48. Yeah it's basically a cancellation of Bus Connects. Walker will be walking away I expect. It puts bus connects beyond the next election and the new government will get NIMBY votes for cancellation.

To be fair, a phased approach could make sense. It’s what they did in Auckland after all. They could make the Tallaght changes first, then the Swords changes, then the orbitals etc. Just trying to throw a bit of optimism into the mix. Regardless, everyone knows Dublin needs the proposed orbital routes.

salmocab · 18-06-2019 10:19am

Bus connects won’t be happening in my opinion, it will be used as a driver for some small adjustments and some improvements but ultimately most of it won’t be implemented. We don’t have politicians with the fortitude to follow through on a plan (in any party) that will upset people short term for long term gains.

devnull · 18-06-2019 10:32am

The sadness is that for all the complaining about poor public trasnport in this country and the improvements it needs, the whole BusConnects saga has shown that whilst there are a good number of people who want to see us have a transport system like our friends and colleagues in Europe, there are many people in society who do not wish for the change to enable that to happen because it would upset the status quo and they are frightened of change and local politicians know that and have used it as a vote buyer by whiping up fury.

Unfortunately Ireland will get what it deserves, this country has been crying out for something like BusConnects and we have waited such a long time for a plan like this to be proposed, the city badly needs it, but at the end of the day, despite the best efforts of the NTA and Jarrett Walker as a country we have not displayed a big enough understanding of the problems and the things that need to change to fix them.

Unfortnately I do not see public transport in Dublin ever matching the best places in Europe. The mindset among the car users and the save our tree campaigners and the trade unions and the media are going to shout it down and prevent it from happening. There are people with good intentions who want to improve things here, but sadly they have been heavily shot down.

LeinsterDub · 18-06-2019 10:39am

Qrt wrote: »

To be fair, a phased approach could make sense. It’s what they did in Auckland after all. They could make the Tallaght changes first, then the Swords changes, then the orbitals etc. Just trying to throw a bit of optimism into the mix. Regardless, everyone knows Dublin needs the proposed orbital routes.

A phased approach simply won't work. If you don't understand this at all this I'm not going to bother explaining it.

cgcsb · 18-06-2019 11:06am

Qrt wrote: »

To be fair, a phased approach could make sense. It’s what they did in Auckland after all. They could make the Tallaght changes first, then the Swords changes, then the orbitals etc. Just trying to throw a bit of optimism into the mix. Regardless, everyone knows Dublin needs the proposed orbital routes.

I don't see how, every spine interacts heavily with the others, with the exception of the G. They all cross the city centre, except the G, and thus require the city centre changes to be in place to facilitate connections, they also depend on feeders and orbitals. It's basically a fudge for cancellation.

There was also talk of a harsh budget for 2020 due to Brexit, this will also kill what's left of MetroLink / Metro North.

Qrt · 18-06-2019 11:50am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

A phased approach simply won't work. If you don't understand this at all this I'm not going to bother explaining it.

We still have to go through the second draft and resultant consultation. The next one will likely route more buses through the general city centre area (but avoid the very very centre). In my eyes, there are some quite isolated parts of the network the Big Bang approach isn’t 100% required for any sort of change in the city. All I want is the orbitals, and I believe we’ll get them at the very least.

L1011 · 18-06-2019 11:53am

Any phased implementation will require a substantial increase in the total number of vehicles and drivers for the length of time it takes to fully implement. This wouldn't be cheap - and could be extremely messy if done via hire ins. No RTPI, no Leap etc on non-low-floor ex-DB RA/RH/RV vehicles sound acceptable?

Qrt · 18-06-2019 12:09pm

L1011 wrote: »

Any phased implementation will require a substantial increase in the total number of vehicles and drivers for the length of time it takes to fully implement. This wouldn't be cheap - and could be extremely messy if done via hire ins. No RTPI, no Leap etc on non-low-floor ex-DB RA/RH/RV vehicles sound acceptable?

No but we have a long history of doing every the drawn-out, meandering and expensive way so I don't exactly see how this is a shock.

I'll wait for more updates on the phasing, it could be a case of 5% change one time, 5% the next, then 90% in one go. I'm not writing it off just yet (but I won't be surprised if it does go that way).

Regardless, I've always said to myself that if I can never live within an hours' walk of the city centre, I'll soon move elsewhere.

TL;DR: Disappointed, but not surprised.

XPS_Zero · 18-06-2019 12:21pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If this is the case they may as well not even bother.
This country is a ****ing joke. 7 years to implement a network redesign

Slaintecare plan for universal healthcare

The education plan the 2011 govt started with

The BusConnects Plan

Now the Climate Change plan

Ireland 2040

You will notice, they announce these plans with a lot of fanfare and glossy leaflets and backdrops, but you'll always notice there is no funding allocated, and very little in the way of specifics. Then they are quietly canceled a few years later (this already happened to the education plan, Slaintecare still has all party support but no actual funding allocated, and since giving everyone a medical card will cost another 6b we need that funding, but they are announcing tax cuts instead so don't hold your breath)
With BusConnects you do have the detail...but :rolleyes: with busconnects you can see exactly WHY they don't include detail in the OTHER plans...because:

-It invites the "residents association" busybodies to insert themselves into the process and object on spurious grounds
-Careerist politicians pander relentlessly to the minority who are put out.
-Journos make front page stories about the 0.5% of people who will be worse off

So it gets canned...so if you provide detail and funding...it gets canned, if you don't provide those things, it never gets done...lose lose lose lose...no matter what we do.

All because voters, and the people the send to political leadership think short term and local ALWAYS, short term and local, not what will help the WHOLE COUNTRY 20 years from now, but what will help south kerry or Stepaside NOW and what will help ME win the next election.

LeinsterDub · 18-06-2019 1:22pm

Qrt wrote: »

We still have to go through the second draft and resultant consultation. The next one will likely route more buses through the general city centre area (but avoid the very very centre). In my eyes, there are some quite isolated parts of the network the Big Bang approach isn’t 100% required for any sort of change in the city. All I want is the orbitals, and I believe we’ll get them at the very least.

What parts are isolated?
So it's a case of Mé féinism?

Dyr · 18-06-2019 2:15pm

So we won't have dedicated bike lanes but we will still have trees and some decent sized footpaths

Maybe next time they'll stick to making a bus project about buses, eh?

cgcsb · 18-06-2019 2:50pm

Bambi wrote: »

So we won't have dedicated bike lanes but we will still have trees and some decent sized footpaths

Maybe next time they'll stick to making a bus project about buses, eh?

providing segregated cycling facilities is essential to improving bus journey times

sharper · 18-06-2019 3:28pm

cgcsb wrote: »

providing segregated cycling facilities is essential to improving bus journey times

Can you imagine the outrage if the government did an extensive amount of works along a route one year and then came back the next to dig it all up again to add a cycle lane.

lil5 · 18-06-2019 3:45pm

cgcsb wrote: »

providing segregated cycling facilities is essential to improving bus journey times

No driver interaction would bring immediate relief.
Alas we're stuck with Leap and still allow cash transactions.

XPS_Zero · 18-06-2019 4:32pm

cgcsb wrote: »

providing segregated cycling facilities is essential to improving bus journey times

Quite so. Remember, in the areas that don't have cycle lanes, there is often a tight squeeze. As a cyclist you will get yelled at or the cops will stop you if you are on a path too long, and if you are on a road without a cycle lane you have only two choices:

1. Be off to the side and try let traffic overtake you, with bus wingmirrors at the same height as your head, terrified you'll get clipped and sucked under, then feel what half your blood volume filling up inside your pelvic bone like a bowl feels like as you lay on the ground semiconcious with screeching traffic all around you, tyres stopping inches from your head (this is the main injury after head injuries in cycle accidents)

2. You can stay in the middle of the road and traffic is crawling behind you.

In either instance you are slowing down traffic that either can't overtake, or does not want to RISK overtaking you.

Ergo, properly segregated cycle lanes, as the ones painted on the ground not seperated by concrete bollards or up on the path are useless death traps.

lil5 wrote: »

No driver interaction would bring immediate relief.
Alas we're stuck with Leap and still allow cash transactions.

We need to ban cash transactions right away. We then need some kind of tech where you can tag on with your location on the app before you get on, the tech is already there. If we can't do it like the Belfast Glider, and have a tag machine at the stops, due to the number of DB/GA stops, then we have to find some alternative.

Unfortunately, like every other job, in govt people are promoted more based on office and actual politics rather than qualifications and merit, hence why you have so many dumb people at the top with no policy imagination.

Dyr · 19-06-2019 7:50am

sharper wrote: »

cgcsb wrote: »

providing segregated cycling facilities is essential to improving bus journey times

Can you imagine the outrage if the government did an extensive amount of works along a route one year and then came back the next to dig it all up again to add a cycle lane.

Who said anything about coming back the next year? Just leave the cyclists free to roam at will as they currently do.

devnull · 19-06-2019 8:01am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-s-bus-network-redesign-to-be-carried-out-over-phased-basis-1.3930058?mode=amp

Confirmation that the NBRU, the media and local politicans have directly led to a phased implementation.

Whipping up fear has worked.

XPS_Zero · 19-06-2019 8:32am

I did social policy and economics in college, I know screw all about city planning, but it seems to me it makes no sense to do a plan like this in a phased way...how could that work????

Isn't a key part of this plan that you will change busses to get to the final destination, but it will still get you there faster? So if it's done in dribs and drabs how are they gonna design it so that if I get off at interchange 15 and wait for the next bus the next bus is going to come?? Surely this plan is all integrated and overlapping? So how the hell can you do it in segments?

I'll tell you what will happen, they'll do some "pilot trials" in some areas, people will get off at the interchange, find no shelters and get p1ssed on in the rain as the next bus takes 15 minutes instead of the 5 it was meant to, they'll hate the entire idea and it will be dumped...I'd not be shocked if that was the entire plan in the first place.

This f---king country is run by morons on behalf of morons, people in this country complain to me all the time that we don't have what other countries have that our politicos have no imagination and we don't have european style services...where do they think all this comes from? Thin f---kin air?? They put those people there, and make these local first, short term thinking -fed demands of them and the result is the very thing they complain about.

Meanwhile countries that are competing with us for jobs like Germany and China are planning 25 years ahead. This is why we got no real jobs dividend from brexit so far all the CEOs complained about our spatial planning and public transport system, "BUT WERE A TAX LAUNDERETTE!!!" they yelled back "BUT WERE A TAX LAUNDERETTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"...Yeh so is everyone else these days genius, anyone can cut their taxes, that's not enough anymore, people are on to that trick esp since our ministers were advising them to copy us 20 f---kin years ago. Lower taxes are no use to them when their staff and execs shudder at the prospect of a 2 hour commute to work forward and back each day.

sharper · 19-06-2019 9:42am

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I did social policy and economics in college, I know screw all about city planning, but it seems to me it makes no sense to do a plan like this in a phased way...how could that work????

It won't work and I'm pretty sure they know it won't work. It's a way of cancelling the plan without embarrassing themselves too much.

The next announcement for the network redesign will be them pushing it out to 2022 or later along with a scaling down of the changes. Eventually the entire plan will be some minor changes to some routes delivered for 2025.

cgcsb · 19-06-2019 9:50am

Bambi wrote: »

Who said anything about coming back the next year? Just leave the cyclists free to roam at will as they currently do.

So the buses will continue to be stuck behind the slowest cyclist and cyclists will face the same danger they do now. How is that better than the current plan, killing two birds with one stone?

LeinsterDub · 19-06-2019 9:53am

https://twitter.com/Pidge/status/1141122163900129280

Say it all really

CatInABox · 19-06-2019 10:27am

Posted this over in the infrastructure forum, so I thought I might as well add it here.

In fairness, the Auckland network redesign was rolled out over the course of three years, so it's not unprecedented.

See here.

The Auckland redesign is considered a success as well, so the NTA may have been looking at it while agreeing to the phased introduction.

devnull · 19-06-2019 10:30am

CatInABox wrote: »

Posted this over in the infrastructure forum, so I thought I might as well add it here.

In fairness, the Auckland network redesign was rolled out over the course of three years, so it's not unprecedented.

See here.

The Auckland redesign is considered a success as well, so the NTA may have been looking at it while agreeing to the phased introduction.

Auckland was a different network though, Jarrett Walker was at pains to say that the type of network designed in Dublin, as it's so interlinked, would need to be a big bang approach as everything is connected.

fly_agaric · 19-06-2019 10:33am

Bus commuters - nice to know we are lower priority than ensuring nimby voters continue to have a nice old tree outside their house and space for the wife's X5/Evoque. :pac:

LeinsterDub · 19-06-2019 10:57am

fly_agaric wrote: »

Bus commuters - nice to know we are lower priority than ensuring nimby voters continue to have a nice old tree outside their house and space for the wife's X5/Evoque. :pac:

Just to be a bit pedantic but the issues isn't the trees or the X5 once the X5 is kept in the driveway in the vast majority of places . The issue is maintaining road space for said X5. If we reduce or remove private cars this issue goes away in most places.

XPS_Zero · 19-06-2019 11:16am

sharper wrote: »

It won't work and I'm pretty sure they know it won't work. It's a way of cancelling the plan without embarrassing themselves too much.

The next announcement for the network redesign will be them pushing it out to 2022 or later along with a scaling down of the changes. Eventually the entire plan will be some minor changes to some routes delivered for 2025.

This has been the playbook with infrastructure since the recession hit: Delay, under fund, obfuscate, dally, pander, delay. FF delayed the rest of T21, FG-Lab canceled it, then revived it under all new headings announcing it as if it was the first time...and each time the date gets kicked down the road, now they are doing the same with this.

With infrastructure, as i've hammered home here many times before, it's because they wanna borrow and tax cut for short term things that will get them in in another 5 years, but with this it's just a matter of the same goal (re-election) just with a different reason (public pressure not money per say) but the same goal: relentless pandering by careerist politicians who, by nature of big parties attracting such people naturally, fill FF and FG.

This is what it comes down to, a trifecta of problems:
-A political system that rewards local rather than national thinking (which is why I think we should switch to PR list or MM-PR rather than PRSTV)

-Careerist politicos. I define a careerist as someone who wants to get to the top with no idea of what they want to do when they get there...they just wanna get there. Both big parties are packed with them. WHen you don't have any actual ideology or even broad principles or outlook you don't ever wanna LEAD the voters you just wanna slavishly follow and pander.

-An electorate who think local and short term, never national and long term.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Pidge/status/1141122163900129280

Say it all really

As I said I suspect doing it in phases is the entire point, people will whinge about a slow torturous roll out and the windy new councilors will pander pander pander pander and it will be scrapped. Then the same people who say "why isn't our system as good as Europe , I was in Paris the other week...." will never connect the dots between their moaning at the res association meeting and the problem they are talking about.

Devnull, I think you are giving these morons in charge far too much credit. It's like what I say to conspiracy theorists, all you need do is work in govt or political circles and you'll see there is no way they would be competent enough to engage in a complex web of conspiracy like that without getting caught. There may be a level of thinking, at a stretch, "maybe if we try to do this quietly and slowly there will be less of a moan" but that's like ripping the bandaid off slowly. Better to have one big bang where people are calling up Joe Duffy and whinging on social media for a month then someone on Love ISland will jiggle their keys in front of the camera and they'll forget all about it and move on to moaning about something else. Do it slow and it's sustained anger and resentment.

Fly there is many a bus user whinging about this plan because they don't understand it (use your app!) or becuase it no longer goes directly outside their door so THEY are put out, but they never consider will the other 500 000 people be better off.

fly_agaric · 19-06-2019 12:03pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Fly there is many a bus user whinging about this plan because they don't understand it (use your app!) or becuase it no longer goes directly outside their door so THEY are put out, but they never consider will the other 500 000 people be better off.

True. That's been going on for months, well prior to local elections.
Just like Metro, once any rumbles/complaints start from the wealthy voters that seems to bring real trouble for the project.

LeinsterDub wrote:

Just to be a bit pedantic but the issues isn't the trees or the X5 once the X5 is kept in the driveway in the vast majority of places .

Was being flippant. My thinking was pieces of gardens/driveways would be cpoed, so while before you could have 2 luxury vehicles fitting comfortably in the front driveway, for some a very hard choice would need to be made.

cgcsb · 19-06-2019 12:08pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Posted this over in the infrastructure forum, so I thought I might as well add it here.

In fairness, the Auckland network redesign was rolled out over the course of three years, so it's not unprecedented.

See here.

The Auckland redesign is considered a success as well, so the NTA may have been looking at it while agreeing to the phased introduction.

The Auckland system is much smaller than Dublin in terms of passengers, frequency and number of buses. The density of bus lines and amount of interaction is also much less. And while being implemented, it was regarded as a disaster by most New Zealanders.

LastStop · 19-06-2019 12:19pm

Didn't Jarrett walker say that the plan wouldn't work unless it was all done together or was it just a recommendation that for people to adjust easier it's best to do it all as one.

cgcsb · 19-06-2019 12:26pm

LastStop wrote: »

Didn't Jarrett walker say that the plan wouldn't work unless it was all done together or was it just a recommendation that for people to adjust easier it's best to do it all as one.

Most people make regular trips and know only their own route (or 2 or 3 routes perhaps) so it makes little difference to most people if it is phased or not, other than adding confusion for people who are making irregular journies or those who are new to the system/visiting. There are no net positives to phased implementation, it only makes it messier/unfeasible and easily cancelled.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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