BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Peregrine · 02-08-2022 9:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417182#Comment_119417182

Any update to the N6?

john boye · 02-08-2022 10:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417498#Comment_119417498

Can't disagree about DB's rostering being archaic but I really don't see what sharing a route between two operators would achieve. If one operator was performing better than the other, then what? What difference would it make?

NTA already has the operator's performance data, they don't need to run them side by side to compare them. Another thing is how would the average passenger know which company to contact if something went wrong? (I know that should all be centralised to the NTA but it's not and that's the model we have)

TranslatorPS · 02-08-2022 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417498#Comment_119417498

It's not my reason though - I just see the practical aspect of having what's meant to be two interworked routes operated by the same Operator when dealing with Operator-based scheduling (given the right intermediate timing mess on 59 O'Connell Street... well, I had one look at the AVL 33 timings versus the 33A when the latter changed hands and it said it all), but in the end the 84 seniority would be very high on DB's list of arguments.

I don't know what working practices in DB are archaic apart from shock horror longer serving staff are rewarded for their service. I don't see what's wrong with this and no I don't work for DB either.

The entire "single rota template for all" thing is rather archaic IMHO (yes, I am purposefully disregarding Mon-Fri drivers and bogeys). I get service rewarding (I don't agree with DB's methods of it but whatever), but a little more flexibility wouldn't hurt so that we wouldn't have a concept of completely "spare" duties. This is where GAI has to be commended - their rotas don't follow set templates for the sake of a set template, but are of adjustable length to account for and fully include the actual number of duties in service, rather than DB's approach of "fit as much as we can into these five-week template blocks and leave the scraps to the spare staff".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119417893#Comment_119417893

There'd be an actual GAI announcement over it, unlike DB's silent update ;)

Katiepie · 03-08-2022 7:57pm

So, will there be any buses under the new g spine plans/ orbitals that will connect with the footbridge at liffey valley before entering the interchange? it'd be a long enough walk to get from the footbridge to the new interchange by the entrance. The press releases claim that its going to connect west dublin and west kildare but its not going to do much if its 10 minutes away.

d51984 · 04-08-2022 3:46pm

Never thought Ide say this but I left Dublin Bus 2 weeks ago, so called job for life. Got a job in a warehouse Mon-Fri better money. Madness.

mikeybhoy · 05-08-2022 10:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428807#Comment_119428807

Sorry to hear that considering the responsibility of the job it should pay better than warehouse work

ITV2 · 07-08-2022 12:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428807#Comment_119428807

was it really that bad?

Fizzy Duck · 07-08-2022 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428807#Comment_119428807

Tbh, I think it depends on the garage. The one I'm in seems to have few uni's/bogeys. I know of a guy who left, went to a garage closer to home. But he came back because the duties suited him better here. I know of other lads who left here and never came back. A lot of it is down to perspective. Money is important, but happiness more so.

VG31 · 07-08-2022 7:46pm

Does anyone have any idea when the A spine, N2, 19 and 24 routes will be introduced?

I remember seeing a plan (years ago) with the expected dates for each phase but I can't find anything now.

LXFlyer · 07-08-2022 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119442199#Comment_119442199

Loosely, the A Spine is planned for the first half of 2024.

N2 is in the first half of 2023.

The 19 and 24 should probably happen at the same time as the E Spine in 2023.

The ability to acquire sufficient staff will have a bearing on when phases are rolled out going forward, so I’d take planned dates with a degree of skepticism right now.

VG31 · 07-08-2022 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119442302#Comment_119442302

Thanks for that info.

I'm not too concerned with the A spine but would be satisified if the airport/Swords buses actually ran. I'm in the airport area frequently for leisure and work. A few weeks ago there was a 45 minute wait in Drumcondra for a bus to the airport. Three 16s in a row were cancelled. I had to wait 40 minutes for a bus on the way home last week due to a combination of cancelled buses and the buses that actually ran being completely full. There must be serious staff shortages.

It's nowhere near as bad though on the routes I get to go in to town. You'd think they could prioritise the airport more considering how limited the public transport is and the shortage of parking.

Spanish Eyes · 07-08-2022 9:07pm

I know that others will have more information and updates, but I was up at Liffey Valley the other day. The bus hub is coming along nicely. I had time to kill so I decided to walk across the footbridge at N4 to the East/City bound bus stop. A bit of a trek for sure from the bus hub!

Coming back from there it is very long walk. Off the bus, up the two tier ramp, across the bridge and then, the pedestrian access seems to veer left towards Marks and Spencer meaning you would have to double back to the bus hub.

I am sure that it will be all foot friendly in due course, but at the moment I'm not so sure.

LXFlyer · 07-08-2022 9:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119442473#Comment_119442473

There have been large volumes of cancellations and curtailments all across the network for months now due to staffing issues. I do recommend using the TFI app to see them, and maybe make as best alternative plans as possible. The impact of annual summer holidays will reduce come the end of the month, but there are real problems out there. You can see from the numbers of buses parked on Eden Quay how affected other routes are. It is certainly not restricted to the 16 or 41 - there are real problems across the network. Plenty of mass cancellations or curtailments.

I don't see how you could prioritise some routes over others - if you lived on one of the affected routes that was officially reduced, I don't think you'd be too happy would you?

trellheim · 08-08-2022 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119442657#Comment_119442657

Key connectivity to be prioritized - stations, airports, hospitals and so on ?

16 ad

john boye · 08-08-2022 12:10pm

There are express coach services for getting to and from the airport. DB PSO routes are local services.

trellheim · 08-08-2022 12:35pm

Sure. I was responding to a question as to how might prioritize one (which should be cancelled) over another by concentrating on more essential connectivity.

LXFlyer · 08-08-2022 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444015#Comment_119444015

People who work in said establishments may be using any bus to get into town in the first place - you can’t really say that one particular bus route is more important than another.

The only prioritisation that could be done is to ensure that low frequency routes are maintained, as gaps on those will have a much greater impact than on higher frequency routes.

bikeman1 · 08-08-2022 1:56pm

Re: Dublin Airport routes being cancelled.

One alternative for people to consider is to take a 33, 41B or 41C to Kealy's pub or ALSAA and walk in from there. If you are going to T2 it is not too far of a walk if able enough on your feet. It takes me about 10 minutes to walk in, which may be far quicker than waiting on a cancelled 16 and 41. Definitely not ideal, but when you are going for a flight, definitely worth it.

VG31 · 08-08-2022 4:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119444944#Comment_119444944

I have no problem doing that but those buses are just as bad for being cancelled or full.

DaBluBoi · 08-08-2022 6:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119445879#Comment_119445879

Its cause all of those above routes are operated by Summerhill, where shortages there seem to be ten times worse, particularly during summertime

LXFlyer · 08-08-2022 6:49pm

Well now there have been mass cancellations and curtailments on plenty of non-Summerhill routes too such as the 14, 15, 26, 27, 39, 39a as well.

And yes, I’ve seen multiple departures in a row affected on those routes.

Saying it’s just one depot that is badly affected is not accurate.

thomasj · 08-08-2022 7:21pm

Yeah Aston Quay schedule this evening

Screenshot_2022-08-08-19-20-38-33_aed27d657edc2cb61c50472c14bc8f32.jpg

bk · 08-08-2022 10:48pm

I do think you can prioritise a particular route and I would argue that is exactly what the NTA are doing with BusConnects. Clearly the core lettered routes (e.g. A1, C1, etc.) will be the high priority routes, followed by the orbital routes.

I’d assume we will see far less cancellations on these routes in future versus other routes.

I’d say that any route serving your airport should absolutely be a top priority. Want to give a good impression to arriving tourists if no other reason. That is how it is in most European cities. By comparison the 16 has always been a disaster show, likely because DB didn’t want it competing with their commercial 747 service.

The NTA really need to sort this route out and get it into shape.

mikeybhoy · 08-08-2022 11:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447320#Comment_119447320

Most major European cities have airports served by some form of rail. Why should the airport get more priority it's a PSO service the fines for 16s or 41s not operating are the same as any other route.

Also the 41 is much faster bus than the 16 for the airport.

Afaik the priority the Bus Connected routes are getting is buses in the new livery as there have been plenty of cancellations on these routes too and buses terminating short in the cc.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2022 5:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119447320#Comment_119447320

That's not how it works in practice.

A bus missing from a low frequency route has far bigger impact in terms of delays for passengers than one missing off a high frequency route, and these would generally be the ones prioritised by the operators.

The "BusConnected" routes have been hit with cancellations and curtailments as much as any others.

There isn't much the NTA can do if there are physical driver shortages in the operating companies, other than decide to implement reduced timetables.

They have already got the NBRU's back up by implying at an Oireachtas committee that staff were claiming to be sick when they were not.

Incidentally, the 16 is not specifically an Airport route. Just as many people rely on it on the southside of the city to commute on.

cgcsb · 09-08-2022 10:32am

Don't get why bus connects didn't propose an express airport bus doing airport to city centre on a high frequency

The lack of rail surely means there's a gap to be filled but the airport bus route A2 seems to be no real improvement on what's there already

LXFlyer · 09-08-2022 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448368#Comment_119448368

Well I suspect that any such PSO service would be open to immediate legal challenge by the commercial operators - Dublin Express and Aircoach under EU competition legislation.

The planned PSO service linking the airport and the city via the Swords Road and Drumcondra actually will be worse under BusConnects than it is now.

Currently you have 5 x 16 per hour during the day and 3 x 41, a total of 8.

BusConnects’ plans for each hour are 5 x A2 via Drumcondra (a reduction of 3 per hour).

It will however add:

1 x route 19 per hour via Ballymun (far too infrequent in my view)

3 x route 24 per hour via Charlestown and Glasnevin

2 x route N8 per hour linking with Blanchardstown and Clongriffin DART Station.

The L83 and L85 will provide a half hourly service to Swords/Donabate/Portrane and Swords/Lusk/Rush/Skerries/Balbriggan respectively

The L81 will replace the 102 every 20 minutes

The direct link to Estates off the Ashbourne Road in Swords to/from the airport will be lost

loyatemu · 09-08-2022 10:49am

so as not to undercut the case for Metro? It seems like a daft reason but I wouldn't be surprised.

bikeman1 · 09-08-2022 11:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448449#Comment_119448449

It is interesting that the airport will actually lose PSO buses to the city. However, the removal of the Beaumont loop is a huge bonus for the airport to city pax. The 16 is quite busy all day ex the airport, but the new A2 should cope being every 12 minutes from the airport if it is feeding on to a higher frequency corridor on the A spine than currently.

The folks up at the top of Swords (Swords Manor etc.) will be surprised that they won't have a direct bus to the airport anymore with the loss of the 41. They will have to change near the airport to get another route in.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2022 11:35am

Just to be clear, the Airport is losing buses to the city via Drumcondra, but gaining some on more circuitous routes serving more of north Dublin en route (which are needed).

But losing three PSO buses an hour from the Airport along the R132 is not good. It’s nuts to be honest.

The A2 is the same frequency as the 16.

Hourly daytime frequency in Drumcondra right now is

1 - 5

11 - 2

13 - 5

16 - 5

33 - 0.75 (every 90 mins)

41/b/c - 6

That’s a total of 23.75 buses per hour.

BusConnects will have:

A1/A2/A3/A4 - 20

19 - 1

22 - 4

That’s a total of 25 buses per hour, so not that much of a difference.

cgcsb · 09-08-2022 12:27pm

I think it's a disaster really. It's public transport snd it shouldn't be ransomed by private interests. There should be an express service from the airport to the city centre operating at least every 15 mins and every 30 mins at night time. Operating via Drumcondra stopping only for interchange with orbitals and drumcondra Station. Ridiculous that not only have we the biggest airport in the world with no rail link but we can't even get a decent few buses out there.

LXFlyer · 09-08-2022 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448935#Comment_119448935

That would surely compete with the commercial Aircoach route 700 service I would suggest as it stops at Drumcondra Station.

The DAA has encouraged private operators such as Dublin Express to set up operations (that did for Airlink), and once they are in place, they’re not going to give up their ground easily. Both Aircoach and Dublin Express have invested heavily in buses and staff.

Any PSO service is going to have to differentiate itself from the commercial operators in terms of stops and route. It just won’t wash otherwise. We have gone through that before with Swords Express objecting to the 41x and a revised routing for the latter had to be devised so that it could be legitimately claimed to be different.

I would expect there to be a regular A Spine service to the Airport through the night. It could be a combined A2/A4 service to/from Swords but there will certainly will be a 24 hour service.

loyatemu · 09-08-2022 1:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119448935#Comment_119448935

there is Dublin Express, who have ~80 services a day to/from the CC via the tunnel.

baingal nancer · 09-08-2022 6:36pm

Haven't got the N6 in over a month, I see they've removed the last stop on Santry Avenue heading towards Howth junction. Doesn't make any sense especially when the next stop on the swords Road the swords buses don't stop there so you need to walk back .

LXFlyer · 09-08-2022 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450837#Comment_119450837

The Swords Road buses don’t stop there….yet.

But I’d be fairly certain that will change.

jd · 09-08-2022 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119450837#Comment_119450837

That will change when the A routes start

AngryLips · 10-08-2022 6:58am

It's crazy that BusConnects and bus planning in general seems to be creating service patterns that dogmatically adhere to concepts of frequencies that are totally made up rather than frequencies that meet actual real life demands. The reductions in service to the airport is case in point - if people are willing to suffer the Beaumont detour to get to the airport on the 16 then what makes them think fewer people will want to use the A service that replaces it? It's the same as with the night buses - the night bus to Swords is packed and often won't pick up at Drumcondra, so why has the frequency been kept at a totally inadequate 30 minutes?

LXFlyer · 10-08-2022 7:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451676#Comment_119451676

That’s not until 2024 - I would hope that they will change the stops before then!!

It does involve changing the schedules as all the stops have times allocated to them so there is a bit of work involved.

LXFlyer · 10-08-2022 7:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452244#Comment_119452244

I think that they’ve got some of the Airport plans wrong

Personally, I would

* Increase the 19 to every 20-30 mins

* Extend the D4 to the Airport and increase the connectivity via Malahide Road

* Add a radial route to boost the A2 frequency between the city centre and airport via Drumcondra

As to increasing current night time frequency - the bus company doesn’t have the drivers at the moment and you’d need additional funding to increase the frequency

baingal nancer · 10-08-2022 7:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451676#Comment_119451676

Still makes no sense removing that stop on Santry Avenue considering the bus is Always stuck there with traffic and at the lights

DaBluBoi · 10-08-2022 8:29am

Could rerouting the 22 to go via the Airport work? It would both boost the frequency by 4 buses an hour at peak and provide for a direct service between the new estates being built there and the airport

Busman Paddy Lasty · 10-08-2022 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452293#Comment_119452293

Anyone know of driver feedback regarding those stops? Seen a bus pull out from the Santry Villas side and it's awkward getting from the stop across traffic into the turn lane for Santry Avenue.

Edit: I would not equate this to the 16 pulling away from the Airport Chipper stop. That has a junction behind it and a good distance to the next, unlike the new stop at Santry Villas which is quite close to the next set of lights where traffic will trap the bus regularly in the bus lane.

hairymaryberry · 10-08-2022 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428807#Comment_119428807

Recently Ga & Db had a open day to try drum up some interest in the job of potential new drivers, turn out was abysmal and once the pay rate was talked about many simply walked away, no longer interested.

GA on a saturday service and buses missing everywhere, GA taking drivers of the likes of 17,18,45a,75,184 and so on, to put drivers on their new Busconnects routes , cant have them flop , NTA pure idiots calling the shots and you can see that clearly now. So if you see any media puff pieces about the success of these new routes, know its at the expense of the other GA routes, i imagine DB will be no different.

The new and improved DB pay deal is out, its the same as before, well thats a lie , its slightly worse if you can believe it, LOL , worry not it is been voted on today and tomorrow, we all know that that means, LOL, boxes opens tonight and NO votes binned and replaced with YES votes! Two day voting only in DB and third world dictatorships!

The previous deal, drivers hit top pay rate in 2024, its now pushed out to 2025.

Overtime will be a thing of the past, in simple terms no overtime. 200 outside drivers on standby to do OT as a regular days work, minimum 2 days per week, NO OT for DB drivers, thats a pay cut

E1000 for 2019 and 2020, after tax be E500, LOL

3% 2021

3.5% 2022

3% 2024

3% 2025

Inflation rate for June 9.6%, we can all see the price of everything going up, this pay deal is a insult

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0701/1307886-euro-zone-inflation/#:~:text=Irish%20inflation%20estimated%20at%209.6%25%20in%20June%20%2D%20Eurostat

"That look good to me, i take it and be happy , dont know why drivers are unhappy"- boards transport forum

Part of the deal is the improved pension, go on have a guess how the new improved pension is to be paid for? You guessed it from drivers contributions taken from wages, and its BACKDATED to 2019! Drivers will be hit with a bill for the previous years on increased pension contributions, if you dont laugh you would cry.

Plenty of other amazing bits and pieces, a driver favorite is the early duties starting at 4AM!

Now you are wondering what this has to do with Bus connects, well the reason DB & GA are having problems running the current service is staff retention and hiring, this does NOTHING to make the job more attractive to new hires, its still a 6 years pay scale, there will be no influx of new blood with these new pay and terms.

Anyway, if rumours are to be believed, there will be plenty of people moving to new jobs from unions and DB once this passes, that will be interesting to see if these rumours are true.

Have not talked to a single driver who has stated they will vote yes, all pissed of and voting NO, this is a good as it gets says the unions, next will be a strike if you dont vote YES, NOT a soul believes them, NTA gonna have to pay if they want Bus connects to roll out, if not drivers are happy to strike, its come to a head, either pay more or go on the dole, its that bad for many.

Brian CivilEng · 10-08-2022 1:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119451399#Comment_119451399

Hope there are serious discussions going on about the layout of bus stops at that junction. They could really use the lights in their favour for transferring, but too often I find I'm stuck in a bus at a light for 2mins while I watch my N6 come and leave.

I travel from the airport and switch to the N6 in Santry to head towards Kilbarrack. A southbound stop by the new Romayos would allow me to get an earlier bus two or three times a week.

bikeman1 · 10-08-2022 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453529#Comment_119453529

How much, for those of us that don't have a clue, does an average DB driver with 10 years service earn before tax per annum? Taking in a usual amount of overtime, as we know the company is run on overtime.

Surely if nobody wants to accept the pay deal, you can ballot for industrial action?

Also everyone pays tax, that's life in Ireland. If I was lucky to get a 3% per annum pay rise for 4 years, I too would be paying tax at the high rate. Same as everyone else earning over €37k. That feel sorry for me argument doesn't work, as we are all in the same boat.

mikeybhoy · 10-08-2022 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453876#Comment_119453876

The deal is crap and it's not about money it's more about work life balance. New deal requires drivers to do 12 hour shifts on a regular basis drivers rightfully against it.

bikeman1 · 10-08-2022 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119452361#Comment_119452361

This would be a huge help and provide a decent service for those in Swords which is one of the, if not the biggest locations for airport workers to live.

What will the 82 do? I can't work it out from the map!

bikeman1 · 10-08-2022 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453920#Comment_119453920

Ok, so it is not about money? Then why were you talking about inflation and being taxed at 50%?

Will the amount of hours per week (averaged out) be worse? My understanding was (and I could be wrong) that the senior jobs were going and the shifts would be more intense than up to now?

Is a bus driver not like any other transport job, effectively can be asked to work any of the 24 hours a day and 7 days in the week within your contracted hours?

DaBluBoi · 10-08-2022 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119453944#Comment_119453944

Provide a direct link between Kiltipper and Tallaght Business Park... even though you could just reroute the 85 to go thru there

LXFlyer · 10-08-2022 4:27pm

The 82 was amended to link Killinarden Heights with Killinarden Post Office - effectively providing a community bus service.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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