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The Great Covid Divide

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wesser wrote: »
    So youre proposing that the people who worked really hard for the pandemic including front line healthcare workers... myself included.... and put my health in dangers way......and paid income tax.... which was diverted to those who did not work... should now pay higher tax by way of punishment for working so hard during the pandemic? Are you having a laugh?

    That's exactly what's going to happen, except we all will pay higher taxes, and there will be pay cuts too. Think 2009 on steroids.


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    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr. Karate wrote: »
    These Lockdowns are costing us Billions a day. This has to be paid for at some point. And no doubt the Govt have already insulated themselves from paying for this [Otherwise they would have lost their love for lockdowns last year] The sad reality is that children not even born yet will be on the hook for this as well.

    More like 2 billion a month give or take half a billion. A children's hospital a month.


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That's exactly what's going to happen, except we all will pay higher taxes, and there will be pay cuts too. Think 2009 on steroids.

    By all, I presume you tax payers right? No party in Ireland is going to cut welfare.


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    #35
    growleaves
    Registered Users Posts: 7,685 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    Just as well the Central bank have been strict about what banks can lend, if some on here or in opposition had their ways, it could be just like 2008 all over again - people way in over their heads with debt.

    I look forward to hearing SF's alternative budget going forward to get out of this mess - they are all for throwing money at people - but very rarely do they show how they will pay for me. I suspect if there was an election called in the morning, SF would strategically decide their runners, so that they would not be the sole/largest party in power, as they will under no circumstances want to deal with having to pay for all this in the years to come.

    They're not the only ones though, are they? We are running up large deficits right now. FF and FG could teach SF a thing or two about throwing money at people.


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    #36
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,603 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Klonker wrote: »
    Any chance of another raid of our pension funds? I'll actually have something to be raided this time :pac:

    I cant remember what they took from our pensions the last time. Was it 0.8% or something?

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #37
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,661 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    growleaves wrote: »
    They're not the only ones though, are they? We are running up large deficits right now. FF and FG could teach SF a thing or two about throwing money at people.

    No but if you are led to believe what the anti government posters are saying - then FF/FG won't be in power after the next election - that only leaves SF as viable option - and they aren't one to impose tax increases - it will go against everything that they have said over the last number of years.

    How will SF deal with paying for all this and somehow convince Irish people that having a United Ireland is economically going to work? Mary Lou seems to talk a lot about a united Ireland - it's like this is what she cares about most - and forget about anything else.


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    #38
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,661 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    I cant remember what they took from our pensions the last time. Was it 0.8% or something?

    0.6% for first 3 years, 0.75% for 4th more and then 0.15% for the last year


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    #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    growleaves wrote: »
    They're not the only ones though, are they? We are running up large deficits right now. FF and FG could teach SF a thing or two about throwing money at people.

    All of the parties support what FF and FG are doing.


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    #40
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    tara2k wrote: »
    If you can afford to leave the country, it'd be a great time to move abroad for a few years. We've been living here for a little over two years now, and we are thinking about moving on.



    It'll be saving, second homes, and bedroom taxes this time round. People seem to think that the country is going to spring back into a boom, once NPHET decides that the country can be re-opened fully. That isn't going to happen, and consequences of the pandemic are going to become clear on an individual, local and national level. Can't wait to see how the banks get on when people start defaulting on loans. Could you have another banking collapse, and another bailout from the tax payer?

    Yup, some people have bought this whole narrative they've spun about "pent up consumer demand" springing us into the glory days again. As if a million people descending on Penney's for knickers and pjs will be enough to offset a 28 billion euro hole.


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    #41
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,393 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Wait until they propose cutting public service pay and hence the nurses that were so valued this time last year


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    #42
    tommybrees
    Registered Users Posts: 389 ✭✭tommybrees


    Nobody should have to repay a cent.
    Not there fault the government has made a total and utter balls of the situation from the start.
    Government forced to close so I believe they should be picking up the Tab.
    Let those in nephet and the rest of the HSE decision makers pay first starting ASAP.


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    #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Antares35 wrote: »
    Yup, some people have bought this whole narrative they've spun about "pent up consumer demand" springing us into the glory days again. As if a million people descending on Penney's for knickers and pjs will be enough to offset a 28 billion euro hole.

    Good point. We were talking about this in work last week. People were saying that they have grown out of the habit of going to the pub, spending €3 for a cup of coffee every day, going out for a meal at the weekend etc now, and they are not going to start doing it again once country opens back up. Think they've also realised how much money they were wasting on the above. The lockdown has gone on for so long now that people have changed their approach to life.


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    #44
    growleaves
    Registered Users Posts: 7,685 ✭✭✭growleaves


    tara2k wrote: »
    All of the parties support what FF and FG are doing.

    Yes but the fact is that FF and FG are the ones who are literally doing it - they are forcing people onto welfare and running up huge deficits.

    So getting angry that SF would theoretically run up deficits and preferring FF and FG because they theoretically would not do so is farcical.


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    #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    0.6% for first 3 years, 0.75% for 4th more and then 0.15% for the last year

    Having done it once, and crossed that line, I would not be surprised if there is another raid on pensions, and a demand to all pension fund managers to disclose our pension details to the government.

    I don’t recall it being that much though. My recollection is that it was a one off of c 1%


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    #46
    cerateau
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭cerateau


    A ridiculous amount of students have been claiming the payment since March last year. I don't blame them however, how is it fair to give thousands of euros to students, many of whom have no intention of staying here and the majority of whom haven't paid income tax.

    To foot the bill, the government should tackle these students by maybe taking the grant off students who claimed benefits?

    Anyone on the dole for more than a year, with limited exceptions, will have their payment reduced to food vouchers.

    Anyone who has been in employment throughout the year should be given tax breaks. We're not the enemy


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    tommybrees wrote: »
    Nobody should have to repay a cent.
    Not there fault the government has made a total and utter balls of the situation from the start.
    Government forced to close so I believe they should be picking up the Tab.
    Let those in nephet and the rest of the HSE decision makers pay first starting ASAP.

    Late last year, if I remember correctly, Pascal O' Donoghue said that those who benefited most from the pandemic should pay. I'd be very interested to find out who these people are. He can't be referring to the people who've continued to work during the pandemic. The efforts of those people has helped keep some semblance of respectability on the finances of the state, and they've been treated like convicts, and scolded like little children, in return.


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    #48
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,661 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Having done it once, and crossed that line, I would not be surprised if there is another raid on pensions, and a demand to all pension fund managers to disclose our pension details to the government.

    I don’t recall it being that much though. My recollection is that it was a one off of c 1%

    As bad as a raid on pensions sound, if your saving for retirement, there is no better way of doing it forma tax efficient point of view.

    If the government raided bank savings for instance well this is money that's already being taxed, hit with DIRT and quite soon could be hit with negative interest rates. So all in all you probably prefer it to be taking from pension.

    Also don't think it really affects the PS - as they all on DB type pensions so there wasn't a majority outcry. If the government really wanted to saved money - stop the future accrual to public sector pensions and move them all to DC type pensions - this would saved the government billions in the long run - but the unions will never let that happen.


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    #49
    PintOfView
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    If anything it would be fairer that only the people on the PUP and employers taking TWSS had to pay it back , but ofcourse the burden will be shared with those of us who didnt take money from the state during this, ideally knowing Ireland where theres not a hope in hell of us cutting taxes , we roll it all in to cheap debt and just pay it back on the drip going forward

    So are you saying you were out of work, but decided not to take money from the State?

    I consider myself very lucky to have been able to work from home, and would be happy to have paid extra tax this past year, and in the future if necessary, to help those a lot more affected by this than me.

    We're all in this together, and we need to all pull together to get the country back on its feet.
    I can't see how your me fein attitude will make any positive contribution to what we need to do.


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    #50
    cerateau
    Registered Users Posts: 29 ✭cerateau


    PintOfView wrote: »

    We're all in this together, and we need to all pull together to get the country back on its feet.
    I can't see how your me fein attitude will make any positive contribution to what we need to do.

    How many employers are having the time of their lives right now with the TWSS ?
    How many of those on PUP are doing a nixer?

    When you punish those who contribute most, you make this island a very undesirable place to live.

    The government should not have enforced these restrictions if they had no funds to do so. Poorer countries carried on as normal, something we should have done a long time ago.


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    PintOfView wrote: »
    We're all in this together, and we need to all pull together to get the country back on its feet. I can't see how your me fein attitude will make any positive contribution to what we need to do.

    You cannot be serious. We are not in this together. Some people are having the times of their lives right now, working cash in hand, and collecting payments from the state. I know a hairdresser who doesn't want this to end, and she is planning on working on the black market for as long as possible. Others, like you, are keeping the show on the road, to a certain extent, and some people are going to lose everything they've worked for.


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    #52
    PintOfView
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    cerateau wrote: »
    How many employers are having the time of their lives right now with the TWSS ?
    How many of those on PUP are doing a nixer?

    When you punish those who contribute most, you make this island a very undesirable place to live.

    The government should not have enforced these restrictions if they had no funds to do so. Poorer countries carried on as normal, something we should have done a long time ago.

    Who's punishing anyone?
    The government is reacting to an external threat that has invaded the island.
    What do you expect them to do, just carry on as if nothing is wrong?

    I'm not God and can't say what would have happened if we didn't lockdown,
    however it looks very likely we would have had our health service overrun many times over, and a lot more people dead.
    In those circumstances someone has to make a decision, and they did.

    You seem to think no restrictions should have been enforced,
    which means you are prepared to sacrifice those who would have died,
    and would be happy with no health service till we all got herd immunity!!


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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    PintOfView wrote: »
    which means you are prepared to sacrifice those who would have died, and would be happy with no health service till we all got herd immunity!!

    You have no health service at the moment. Every other aspect of the service has ground to a halt. Appointments and procedures have been have been cancelled en masse. You are going to have to lock the country down again in Q4, to try and deal with that backlog, and the impact it is going to have on the hospitals, as I said on this forum before.


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    #54
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    PintOfView wrote: »
    So are you saying you were out of work, but decided not to take money from the State?

    I consider myself very lucky to have been able to work from home, and would be happy to have paid extra tax this past year, and in the future if necessary, to help those a lot more affected by this than me.

    We're all in this together, and we need to all pull together to get the country back on its feet.
    I can't see how your me fein attitude will make any positive contribution to what we need to do.

    Ohh no, if anything im busier than Ive ever been, as have many others, but when all this is over and the tax man chooses to come collect from people, I think it would be incredibly unfair to put this on the middle classes or the high earners, have different rules for different sectors etc..

    I would love to see this all paid for with borrowing and a gradual spending cut to service that debt but we all know that wont happen. I just pray the eventual tax cut hits everyone across all income levels as to minimise everyones tax burden and also make sure that the (generally lower income) workers in the sectors which availed of TWSS and PUP are actively contributing to pay back what they have taken out.

    The most unfair result of this would be to use new taxes as a wealth transfer to penalise those who kept working to allow those who did not off scot free.


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    #55
    PintOfView
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    tara2k wrote: »
    You cannot be serious. We are not in this together. Some people are having the times of their lives right now, working cash in hand, and collecting payments from the state. I know a hairdresser who doesn't want this to end, and she is planning on working on the black market for as long as possible. Others, like you, are keeping the show on the road, to a certain extent, and some people are going to lose everything they've worked for.

    Very few people are having the time of their lives.
    The cash in hand people were always there, so nothing new on that front.

    I was pushing back against the suggestion that only those who were getting the PUP etc., should have to pay.
    The majority of PUP recipients are not doing nixers and having the time of their lives, and far from it.

    For anyone who has done relatively well from the pandemic, and not lost income, etc.,
    to then come along and suggest that "it would be fairer" for PUP recipients to foot the bill is in my mind someone who doesn't get what it is to be a team player.
    And a nation of team players is going to get much further after this, than a nation of me feiners!!


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    #56
    PintOfView
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    tara2k wrote: »
    You have no health service at the moment. Every other aspect of the service has ground to a halt. Appointments and procedures have been have been cancelled en masse. You are going to have to lock the country down again in Q4, to try and deal with that backlog, and the impact it is going to have on the hospitals, as I said on this forum before.

    It's not true to say there's no health service at the moment, they are struggling, but they are also getting through a percentage of procedures, etc.

    So what was your plan to deal with it, and would the health service be better under your regime?


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    #57
    SnuggyBear
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭SnuggyBear


    There will be some people on pup enjoying it and there are people who are struggling.
    The fact is their jobs were shut down by the government for most of the year. Why should they have to pay?
    They already have to payback a massive tax bill when they get back to work which people forget.


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    #58
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    PintOfView wrote: »
    Very few people are having the time of their lives.
    The cash in hand people were always there, so nothing new on that front.

    I was pushing back against the suggestion that only those who were getting the PUP etc., should have to pay.
    The majority of PUP recipients are not doing nixers and having the time of their lives, and far from it.

    For anyone who has done relatively well from the pandemic, and not lost income, etc.,
    to then come along and suggest that "it would be fairer" for PUP recipients to foot the bill is in my mind someone who doesn't get what it is to be a team player.
    And a nation of team players is going to get much further after this, than a nation of me feiners!!

    What do you mean by people who have "done well from the pandemic"? Those of us who continued to work? Often from our kitchens, with kids screaming in the background? Who've had to ask our partners to take annual leave when we have board meetings scheduled so that they baby doesn't throw a wobbly when the chair is giving his update? Who have continued to work, pay tax, PRSI, USC so that the PUP can be paid and try to save for a house in a market that's so pent up that there are people outbidding each other for houses they've only seen online?


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    #59
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    SnuggyBear wrote: »
    There will be some people on pup enjoying it and there are people who are struggling . The fact is their jobs were shut down by the government for most of the year. Why should they have to pay?
    They already have to payback a massive tax bill when they get back to work which people forget.

    It isn't a massive tax bill.


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    #60
    SnuggyBear
    Registered Users Posts: 965 ✭✭✭SnuggyBear


    Antares35 wrote: »
    It isn't a massive tax bill.

    Almost 2k isn't a massive tax bill to you?


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    #61
    PintOfView
    Registered Users Posts: 857 ✭✭✭PintOfView


    Antares35 wrote: »
    What do you mean by people who have "done well from the pandemic"? Those of us who continued to work? Often from our kitchens, with kids screaming in the background? Who've had to ask our partners to take annual leave when we have board meetings scheduled so that they baby doesn't throw a wobbly when the chair is giving his update? Who have continued to work, pay tax, PRSI, USC so that th PUP can be paid and try to save for a house in a market that's so pent up that there are people outbidding each other for houses they've only seen online?

    You're misquoting me. I said "relatively well".
    If you were able to continue to work, even from your kitchen, then you were likely to be able to continue paying your mortgage, and other loans, etc.

    That puts you a lot better off than some, who are in fear of not working again (and not by choice), or of losing their house, etc.


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