If the world goes completely vegan

El Tarangu · 23-11-2020 12:28am

Markcheese wrote: »

Grasslands and grazing systems can ( not always) also be enormous carbon sinks,

Quite possibly - but again, this takes no account of the methane that grazing cattle produce (methane is 20x more potent than CO2)

Also - and this is a genuine question that I don't know the answer to, perhaps one farmers will know, they are quite responsive on this thread - are there any cattle that are actually 100% grass-fed, that don't consume at least some degree of meal as part of their diet?

Because, if they are in fact eating imported meal, a lot of these arguments about grasslands being a carbon sink, and the supposed ills of tillage, go out the window.

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 12:30am

We do import a lot of feed from all over the world, it is fed to chicken and pigs and cattle

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-30832683.html

I also dont know if there's such thing as beef produced from 100% grass and locally grown feed in Ireland.

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 12:38am

El Tarangu wrote: »

Quite possibly - but again, this takes no account of the methane that grazing cattle produce (methane is 20x more potent than CO2)

Also - and this is a genuine question that I don't know the answer to, perhaps one farmers will know, they are quite responsive on this thread - are there any cattle that are actually 100% grass-fed, that don't consume at least some degree of meal as part of their diet?

Because, if they are in fact eating imported meal, a lot of these arguments about grasslands being a carbon sink, and the supposed ills of tillage, go out the window.

No I wouldn't think so. They would be getting feed, some more some less. Not all feed is imported. And no I ain't looking up the numbers for you. I am sure you can find them.

El Tarangu · 23-11-2020 12:48am

Gary kk wrote: »

No I wouldn't think so. They would be getting feed, some more some less. Not all feed is imported. And no I ain't looking up the numbers for you. I am sure you can find them.

Well, another poster claimed that:

On the other hand, when ground is tilled to plant crops, carbon is released.

According to TradingEconomics, Ireland's 2nd biggest import from Brazil ($66m) is cereals - undoubtedly some of this is for human consumption, but presumably some of it is for animal feed.

I'm not sure how clearing rainforest in Brazil, planting cereals, shipping them to Ireland and feeding them to Irish cattle is factored in to the calculations of Irish grassland that is used for animal-grazing being a super-duper carbon sink, but perhaps other posters who are more knowledgeable on the subject will chime in.

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 12:56am

A lot is byproduct. What would otherwise be waste is feed to livestock. Most is not grown specifically for feed.

Someone makes plant oil or some soy products.Has biomass left over looks over the fence hey you there I got this do you the animals will eat it? Sure one to find out. Oh look they love it. Ok give €€ and you can have more.

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 1:01am

El Tarangu wrote: »

Well, another poster claimed that:

According to TradingEconomics, Ireland's 2nd biggest import from Brazil ($66m) is cereals - undoubtedly some of this is for human consumption, but presumably some of it is for animal feed.

I'm not sure how clearing rainforest in Brazil, planting cereals, shipping them to Ireland and feeding them to Irish cattle is factored in to the calculations of Irish grassland that is used for animal-grazing being a super-duper carbon sink, but perhaps other posters who are more knowledgeable on the subject will chime in.

Where are you getting these oversimplified story's from? As I said in an earlier post if we could agree to work statistics coming from the EU maybe it would help clean up the clutter.

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 1:05am

Gary kk wrote: »

A lot is byproduct. What would otherwise be waste is feed to livestock. Most is not grown specifically for feed.

Someone makes plant oil or some soy products.Has biomass left over looks over the fence hey you there I got this do you the animals will eat it? Sure one to find out. Oh look they love it. Ok give €€ and you can have more.

I've only seen this theory of it being waste product for human products on boards.ie tbh. I'm not convinced.

El Tarangu · 23-11-2020 1:08am

Gary kk wrote: »

Where are you getting these oversimplified story's from? As I said in an earlier post if we could agree to work statistics coming from the EU maybe it would help clean up the clutter.

I know; and given there are statistics that don't come from the EU that could be germane to the issue, and given that you aren't a mod, I decided to ignore it.

"Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production" - so I don't think that it is all handy, abundant by-product.

From V & V favourite, the FAO - http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 1:09am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've only seen this theory of it being waste product for human products on boards.ie tbh. I'm not convinced.

I am sure there is some evidence out there in the greater parts of the world.

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 1:14am

El Tarangu wrote: »

I know; and given there are statistics that don't come from the EU that could be germane to the issue, and given that you aren't a mod, I decided to ignore it.

"Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production" - so I don't think that it is all handy, abundant by-product.

From V & V favourite, the FAO - http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf

Fair enough it was just a suggestion. Goodnight now got to hit hay.

El Tarangu · 23-11-2020 1:17am

Gary kk wrote: »

Fair enough it was just a suggestion. Goodnight now got to hit hay.

Air-freighted from Brazil, no doubt...

- joke, joke - goodnight to you, too

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 1:23pm

The world isn't ever going to go vegan but more and more people in affluent countries are going to eat less meat as time goes on, it's looking that way anyway.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/29/tesco-sets-300-per-cent-sales-target-for-plant-based-alternatives-to-meat

When you see the likes of this news one would think they're responding to consumer demands. The Denny's meat free products and Beyond Burger and the Aldi meat free burgers and chicken burgers are sold out pretty much every time I'm in these shops, they're hard to get so I usually buy loads when I can and put them in the freezer.
The market will keep growing.

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 1:52pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The world isn't ever going to go vegan but more and more people in affluent countries are going to eat less meat as time goes on, it's looking that way anyway.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/29/tesco-sets-300-per-cent-sales-target-for-plant-based-alternatives-to-meat

When you see the likes of this news one would think they're responding to consumer demands. The Denny's meat free products and Beyond Burger and the Aldi meat free burgers and chicken burgers are sold out pretty much every time I'm in these shops, they're hard to get so I usually buy loads when I can and put them in the freezer.
The market will keep growing.

Well like lets be honest some of those taste nice.

richie123 · 23-11-2020 2:52pm

Jjameson wrote: »

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vegan-diet-nutrition-bones-study-b1760162.html

There would be plenty of opportunity in orthopaedics.

I saw that interesting one now

Tilikum17 · 23-11-2020 2:54pm

richie123 wrote: »

I saw that interesting one now

“However, data on whether the fractures were caused by poor bone health or accidents was not available”

Great study lol.

Unearthly · 23-11-2020 3:24pm

It's like whack a troll in this forum. Whack one and another takes Its place

Edit: ah just seen the cavalry has been called in the farming forum. Makes sense

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 3:29pm

Unearthly wrote: »

It's like whack a troll in this forum. Whack one and another takes Its place

I'm sure they'd be very welcoming if we went to the farming forum and started telling them how processed meats are heavily linked to bowel and other forms of cancer. But of course I'm sure they only eat locally sourced clean meat from an animal that has been put to sleep in the most humane way possible.

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 3:38pm

Jjameson wrote: »

I think they are fair points and I don’t see anything precluding anyone from posting in farming and forestry.

I have no business posting there, that's a forum for farmers. It really is amazing how obsessed you all are with what is said in a vegan forum. We are never going to agree on anything so why not just let things be, I'm sure business is booming for you anyway with the worldwide growth in meat demand I keep hearing about.

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 3:47pm

Jjameson wrote: »

Nothing precluded anyone with an interest in the topics discussed. You don’t have to be a farmer.
I see no prerequisite to be a believer of all things vegan to post here and many like me so this is unlikely to become the one sided echo chamber you desire!

Not really I just don't get farmers can gain from posting in a place where people believe that the farming and slaughter of animals is cruel and unnecessary, no matter what. I mean one poster seems to meticulously crawl through everyone's posts here, on what must be an almost daily basis, it's a sick obsession for him.
It's like going to the Christian forum and continually telling them there's no such thing as God, it's pointless.

Ten of Swords · 23-11-2020 3:50pm

OK we're going off topic here. A new thread can be started if you wish to discuss what's going on in the F&F forum, thanks

El Tarangu · 23-11-2020 4:10pm

The moderation here is genuinely difficult to credit...

Ok, to keep more strictly in-line with the topic of discussion:

If everyone were to go vegan tomorrow, male chicks would no longer be ground up alive at birth.

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 4:18pm

We'd no longer have to hear about the horrors of factory farming, there was a horrific exposé of what goes on behind closed doors in Spanish pig factory farms published a week or so ago. I've seen similar stories in Northern Ireland too, we also had that fire recently where 1000s of them burned to death on top of each other.

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 4:21pm

Jjameson wrote: »

So are they released into the wild tomorrow or fed to old age?

Kill them all, like they're doing with the minks, and then never allow that type of farming abomination to happen again. Obviously.

El Tarangu · 23-11-2020 4:31pm

Jjameson wrote: »

So are they released into the wild tomorrow or fed to old age?

They could all be culled. Or fed and kept to live out until old age. We currently spend billions subsidising the production of animals as things stand; this would be the same thing, only without the trip to the slaughterhouse. I'm sure that farmers would be happy enough to continue to accept taxpayers money to tend to these animals for another few years.

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 4:49pm

Jjameson wrote: »

But we aren’t farmers anymore we are all vegans tomorrow so there’s no one to kill them ,and we can’t keep them captive?

Dammit. You've sussed the whole vegan/vegetarian movement. I'm off to buy some spare ribs.

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 4:50pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

They could all be culled. Or fed and kept to live out until old age. We currently spend billions subsidising the production of animals as things stand; this would be the same thing, only without the trip to the slaughterhouse. I'm sure that farmers would be happy enough to continue to accept taxpayers money to tend to these animals for another few years.

Oh the the subject of subsidies I think it's better to stay away from it. It goes to all different types of farmers arable or livestock it cost ever citizen in the EU no more than forty cents per year and allows farmers to deliver food at a higher standard then the global average

El Tarangu · 23-11-2020 4:52pm

Jjameson wrote: »

But we aren’t farmers anymore we are all vegans tomorrow so there’s no one to kill them ,and we can’t keep them captive?

Well, it's not my stupid hypothetical - you asked me what could be done with all the animals, and I've just told you.

_Brian · 23-11-2020 4:54pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Not really I just don't get farmers can gain from posting in a place where people believe that the farming and slaughter of animals is cruel and unnecessary, no matter what. I mean one poster seems to meticulously crawl through everyone's posts here, on what must be an almost daily basis, it's a sick obsession for him.
It's like going to the Christian forum and continually telling them there's no such thing as God, it's pointless.

I think the underlying thing is there is no need for anyone or everyone to go vegan unless they want to. Sure farming has its demons, but so too veganism
Has its extremists who act like fascists trying to bully and abuse ordinary decent folk into their way of like.
I get that vegans have an issue with slaughter of animals for food, but why let that emotional weakness try y and hold the whole world to ransoms and force a way of life into people who just don’t want it, where is the tolerance and acceptance of difference in choices.

Calling people murderers or rapists or animal abusers is just bully boy tactics, the sign of a group who have realised there is no rational argument to be made and so move to name calling and abuse.

El Tarangu · 23-11-2020 4:56pm

Gary kk wrote: »

Oh the the subject of subsidies I think it's better to stay away from it. It goes to all different types of farmers arable or livestock it cost ever citizen in the EU no more than forty cents per year and allows farmers to deliver food at a higher standard then the global average

Well, tbh I don't have any particular desire for my tax money to sudsidise arable farmers, either, any more than I would like to subsidise carpenters or clockmakers or any other profession. Whereas I actively object to subsidising activities that I have a moral objection to.

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 4:58pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Well, tbh I don't have any particular desire for my tax money to sudsidise arable farmers, either, any more than I would like to subsidise carpenters or clockmakers or any other profession. Whereas I actively object to subsidising activities that I have a moral objection to.

Good thing your not in charge so.

Markcheese · 23-11-2020 4:59pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've only seen this theory of it being waste product for human products on boards.ie tbh. I'm not convinced.

Soya hulls and soya meal ( what's left after the oil is removed ) are imported in large quantities , cotton seed , citrus pulp ( what's left after juicing oranges ect,) some beet pulp -used to be home produced but our sugar industry got shut down .
Brewers grains is what's left after making beer , and distillers is what's left after whisky and spirits ( likely to be Irish produce ) ,
I'm sure there are loads of others but I can't think of them right now

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 5:02pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Soya hulls and soya meal ( what's left after the oil is removed ) are imported in large quantities , cotton seed , citrus pulp ( what's left after juicing oranges ect,) some beet pulp -used to be home produced but our sugar industry got shut down .
Brewers grains is what's left after making beer , and distillers is what's left after whisky and spirits ( likely to be Irish produce ) ,
I'm sure there are loads of others but I can't think of them right now

So are all of these reports from the UN and Oxford university about the majority of farmland being used to feed animals false, or what?
It's primarily for human products and animals get the leftovers?

El Tarangu · 23-11-2020 5:09pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Soya hulls and soya meal ( what's left after the oil is removed ) are imported in large quantities , cotton seed , citrus pulp ( what's left after juicing oranges ect,) some beet pulp -used to be home produced but our sugar industry got shut down .
Brewers grains is what's left after making beer , and distillers is what's left after whisky and spirits ( likely to be Irish produce ) ,
I'm sure there are loads of others but I can't think of them right now

And ground-up male chicks are used for fertilizer - while I'm sure that we all admire this thriftiness, it doesn't get away from the fact that a huge proportion of the land under cultivation today is exclusively for livestock feed, including large areas of south america that used to be rainforest. If there no more livestock animals, most of this land could be used for other things.

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 5:11pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

And ground-up male chicks are used for fertilizer - while I'm sure that we all admire this thriftiness, it doesn't get away from the fact that a huge proportion of the land under cultivation today is exclusively for livestock feed, including large areas of south america that used to be rainforest. If there no more livestock animals, most of this land could be used for other things.

What the farmers on here say is that this land is actually for human products, but the leftovers go to animals. So it's not grown for animals at all, apparently.
I wish we could put this one to bed once and for all.

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 5:18pm

Jjameson wrote: »

From what I can decipher soya is about 50 50 in terms of economics between oil and animal feed. A move away from both would be of benefit environmentally and a sway toward regenerative animal farming practices is where it should be going.

Could we produce all the beef and dairy we currently do in Ireland using regenerative farming practices and no imported feed?

Markcheese · 23-11-2020 5:31pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So are all of these reports from the UN and Oxford university about the majority of farmland being used to feed animals false, or what?
It's primarily for human products and animals get the leftovers?

No , there's a lot of crops grown specifically for animals too , most of the cereals grown in Ireland are grown for animal feed, ( exception would be malting barly ) ,
But it can make stats hard to decipher accurately , if I'm feeding soya meal , And that rightly get attributed as a soya product .. but it's also the left over from soya oil production .. so I don't know what would happen to it otherwise ,( I suppose some could be used for human consumption )

NcdJd · 23-11-2020 5:39pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Well, tbh I don't have any particular desire for my tax money to sudsidise arable farmers, either, any more than I would like to subsidise carpenters or clockmakers or any other profession. Whereas I actively object to subsidising activities that I have a moral objection to.

It works both ways, consumers get their food cheap due to these subsidies.... otherwise you'd be paying through the roof for produce no matter if it's grains, veg or meat... that's the reason farmers get subsidies..

NcdJd · 23-11-2020 5:47pm

Markcheese wrote: »

No , there's a lot of crops grown specifically for animals too , most of the cereals grown in Ireland are grown for animal feed, ( exception would be malting barly ) ,
But it can make stats hard to decipher accurately , if I'm feeding soya meal , And that rightly get attributed as a soya product .. but it's also the left over from soya oil production .. so I don't know what would happen to it otherwise ,( I suppose some could be used for human consumption )

I would love to see flour milling coming back to Ireland again. There are a couple of small producers at it. All that's been sold alot of time is bleached rubbish.

auspicious · 23-11-2020 5:47pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

The moderation here is genuinely difficult to credit...

Ok, to keep more strictly in-line with the topic of discussion:

If everyone were to go vegan tomorrow, male chicks would no longer be ground up alive at birth.

Yes.
And pigs wouldn't be chewing on each other's open sores nor thrown alive into tanks of boiling water as seen in Mexico. They wouldn't have to be pried away from metal trailors using crow bars after having frozen to death in transport over large distances in Canada's Winter.
Frightened and terrified dogs on puppy farms wouldn't exist ( don't buy a dog, especially at Christmas). Nor would the caged dogs awaiting a clubbing on the head, then blowtorched to remove hair before being killed for human consumption.
Ducks and geese would no longer be terrified and exhausted after many weeks of continued desperate gavaging to make foie gras from their bloated livers. The process has been compared to torture in Brazil. Even in the high welfare use ( not all instances) of the practice in France birds are left terrified of the farmer, panting, damaged throats and unable to move as their oversized liver pushes against other organs.
Bears in cages in China lying on their sides with their gallbladders cathetered for bile would stop.
Male calves generally useless to the industry wouldn't be killed ( methods including plastic bags and lump hammers have been noted in Ireland ) nor transported long distances to be fattened for veal in confinement.
Animals wouldn't be transported from temperate climates to hot climates, especially in Summer or to countries experiencing heatwaves.
Animals would not be sent to countries which have basically no animal welfare guidelines: take Irish cattle sent to Libya for example where it's been reported were beaten, stabbed and dragged by the eye sockets. An Irish man or woman with the backing of the Irish government sent them to that fate.

What would happen to farmed animals if the World went vegan tomorrow? Well the above listed would not happen to them anymore.
A vegan world would see these extreme acts confined to history.

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 6:22pm

That's a rather broad brush you have used auspicious. On the same reasoning we all should take responsibility for every person killed or tortured.

purplesnack · 23-11-2020 6:30pm

auspicious wrote: »

Yes.
And pigs wouldn't be chewing on each other's open sores nor thrown alive into tanks of boiling water as seen in Mexico. They wouldn't have to be pried away from metal trailors using crow bars after having frozen to death in transport over large distances in Canada's Winter.
Frightened and terrified dogs on puppy farms wouldn't exist ( don't buy a dog, especially at Christmas). Nor would the caged dogs awaiting a clubbing on the head, then blowtorched to remove hair before being killed for human consumption.
Ducks and geese would no longer be terrified and exhausted after many weeks of continued desperate gavaging to make foie gras from their bloated livers. The process has been compared to torture in Brazil. Even in the high welfare use ( not all instances) of the practice in France birds are left terrified of the farmer, panting, damaged throats and unable to move as their oversized liver pushes against other organs.
Bears in cages in China lying on their sides with their gallbladders cathetered for bile would stop.
Male calves generally useless to the industry wouldn't be killed ( methods including plastic bags and lump hammers have been noted in Ireland ) nor transported long distances to be fattened for veal in confinement.
Animals wouldn't be transported from temperate climates to hot climates, especially in Summer or to countries experiencing heatwaves.
Animals would not be sent to countries which have basically no animal welfare guidelines: take Irish cattle sent to Libya for example where it's been reported were beaten, stabbed and dragged by the eye sockets. An Irish man or woman with the backing of the Irish government sent them to that fate.

What would happen to farmed animals if the World went vegan tomorrow? Well the above listed would not happen to them anymore.
A vegan world would see these extreme acts confined to history.

And that's mostly only if people went plant-based. To go truly vegan there would be no more...

Badger baiting, or killing badgers in case they might have TB
Poisoning of raptors and other predators
Fox hunting
Hare coursing
Trophy hunting
Hunting for no reason whatsoever other than to take an innocent life
Absolutely raping the seas of fish and actually leaving a food source for other marine life
Whaling for 'research purposes' or mass killing of whales for 'traditional' reasons
Shark finning - absolutely barbaric practice
No more wet markets, and the risks that are associated with them
Fur farming and killing wild animals for their fur

It's actually truly depressing just how we as a species treat the other animals that are trying to share the planet with us. Farming is only a part of it. I will never apologise for being vegan.....never.

Ten of Swords · 23-11-2020 6:37pm

Since the last mod warning there have been 2 clusters of off topic posts, both of which were derailing the thread

The next off topic post will earn the person who posted it a card and ban from this thread

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 6:40pm

This is not good enough those post above are clearly there to cause a reaction. Please do ban me to I can highlight.

Ten of Swords · 23-11-2020 6:45pm

Discuss them in the context of the thread. It has been suggested that if the world went vegan then XYZ would not happen - that's what's been posted.

Refute it if you wish. The deleted posts were discussing mod actions and the forum charter, both off topic.

Now, I'm really done with this. If you can't stick to the topic of the thread don't post in it.

auspicious · 23-11-2020 6:49pm

Gary kk wrote: »

This is not good enough those post above are clearly there to cause a reaction. Please do ban me to I can highlight.

The world doesn't revolve around you.
There are plenty of people shocked and amazed when they see footage of standard practices in countries. Even in the Western World.
There's probably people in Mexico that don't know the conditions under which some pigs are slaughtered there.
I spoke about farmed animals in line with the OP.

The only reaction I seek is for people to go "Yeah. You know what I'm done with being part of that.".

Gary kk · 23-11-2020 6:56pm

auspicious wrote: »

The world doesn't revolve around you.
There are plenty of people shocked and amazed when they see footage of standard practices in countries. Even in the Western World.
There's probably people in Mexico that don't know the conditions under which some pigs are slaughtered there.
I spoke about farmed animals in line with the OP.

No don't auspicious, you know exactly what you were doing with the above post so does just about everyone else here. That's the only reason I am still here.

_Brian · 23-11-2020 7:16pm

How Would the world change to Be vegan ??

It wouldn’t happen by choice, so what mechanism would cause it ??

Unearthly · 23-11-2020 7:19pm

_Brian wrote: »

How Would the world change to Be vegan ??

It wouldn’t happen by choice, so what mechanism would cause it ??

You're right, it won't happen and hypothetical of a situation that won't happen

We might as well ask ourselves what would happen if the world went blind. Sci fi tv show stuff

Thelonious Monk · 23-11-2020 7:19pm

_Brian wrote: »

How Would the world change to Be vegan ??

It wouldn’t happen by choice, so what mechanism would cause it ??

It's a completely hypothetical argument obviously, posed by a non vegan in the first place. I didn't think it was fair of you to call people emotionally weak for being against the slaughter of animals for food, in a vegan forum, by the way.

_Brian · 23-11-2020 7:26pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's a completely hypothetical argument obviously, posed by a non vegan in the first place. I didn't think it was fair of you to call people emotionally weak for being against the slaughter of animals for food, in a vegan forum, by the way.

I think that’s a practical description of the situation in comparison to the rest of society whom we are supposing about what wkikdnhallen if they went vegan.

If the world goes completely vegan

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