General British politics discussion thread

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 6:11pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

It's not about right or wrong though, it's about what voters want. And seemingly they don't want this version of equality that Labour are peddling.

Labour, if it wants to win elections, needs to recognise and accept this reality. They change, or wait a generation for it to change. Just because this is unpalatable for some activists, doesn't make it less true.

Should the Greens promote pollution. Should the Tories promote strong unions.
If you think something is right you should not change because its good for votes. If that's the case we should just have 5 parties all saying the exact same thing. It's not just some activists like you keep trying to pretend Labour still has millions of voters but you are too obsessed with social activists to see this

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 6:27pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Should the Greens promote pollution. Should the Tories promote strong unions.
If you think something is right you should not change because its good for votes. If that's the case we should just have 5 parties all saying the exact same thing. It's not just some activists like you keep trying to pretend Labour still has millions of voters but you are too obsessed with social activists to see this

Look, I don't have any skin in the game, I'm an overseas commenter.
So if it's not Labours message that's the problem, what is it? Because everything I've seen points to it being the message.
Do you think the culture war resonates in northern England?

If labour are happy to watch the Tories running the country, that's fine - they can look on from the sidelines. But if they want to be in power they will need to move to meet the voters. Voters are not going to change quickly and radically from a position that was 10-15 years in the making.

listermint · 10-05-2021 6:41pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Look, I don't have any skin in the game, I'm an overseas commenter.
So if it's not Labours message that's the problem, what is it? Because everything I've seen points to it being the message.
Do you think the culture war resonates in northern England?

If labour are happy to watch the Tories running the country, that's fine - they can look on from the sidelines. But if they want to be in power they will need to move to meet the voters. Voters are not going to change quickly and radically from a position that was 10-15 years in the making.

Your culture war is actually the Tories . I'm not sure you've been following their strategy at all the last few years. They are in the culture war

But culture wars don't provide jobs. Covid vacinne is near over I'm guessing the Tories will be found out in the next two years for relying on culture war and lies to distract people from the closing factories and missing immigrants for the jobs they need them for.

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 6:43pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Look, I don't have any skin in the game, I'm an overseas commenter.
So if it's not Labours message that's the problem, what is it? Because everything I've seen points to it being the message.
Do you think the culture war resonates in northern England?

If labour are happy to watch the Tories running the country, that's fine - they can look on from the sidelines. But if they want to be in power they will need to move to meet the voters. Voters are not going to change quickly and radically from a position that was 10-15 years in the making.

You keep letting the mask slip on the no skin in the game stuff with your clear vitriol towards socially liberal activists

I'll put in an Irish context then. Peter Casey lost the Irish presidential election on a heavily "Im not allowed say this but" anti traveller ticket.
He lost so should he try run again next time but copying Michael Ds inclusive message ?

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 7:13pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I was with you up until this but you just had to tack on the bitter little "kids these days scare me with their new ideas" whinge. People wanting racial, sexual, gender, and class equality goes way beyond a few people you dont like on twitter and Labour are right to back it

That's grand, but it ain't winning votes or elections.

And I was referring only to Brexit and the constant bashing off Brexit voters as uneducated, naive, foolish etc etc.

Labour elite got too obsessed with membership of the EU and forgot that it's ok not to support it.

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 7:16pm

listermint wrote: »

Your culture war is actually the Tories . I'm not sure you've been following their strategy at all the last few years. They are in the culture war

But culture wars don't provide jobs. Covid vacinne is near over I'm guessing the Tories will be found out in the next two years for relying on culture war and lies to distract people from the closing factories and missing immigrants for the jobs they need them for.

There's also things like social care which they've been promising to sort out for years but keep on making excuses. Gove was asked about it over the weekend and blamed the pandemic even though they claimed to have a plan ready to roll out 2 years ago. They can't keep ducking that forever or the very unpalatable fact they'll have to increase taxes to pay for it. Social care is what cost May a majority in 2017 so it's one big issue that could easily push through.

10-05-2021 8:19pm

listermint wrote: »

Your culture war is actually the Tories . I'm not sure you've been following their strategy at all the last few years. They are in the culture war

But culture wars don't provide jobs. Covid vacinne is near over I'm guessing the Tories will be found out in the next two years for relying on culture war and lies to distract people from the closing factories and missing immigrants for the jobs they need them for.

What culture war are the Tories engaged in?

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 8:20pm

listermint wrote: »

Your culture war is actually the Tories . I'm not sure you've been following their strategy at all the last few years. They are in the culture war

But culture wars don't provide jobs. Covid vacinne is near over I'm guessing the Tories will be found out in the next two years for relying on culture war and lies to distract people from the closing factories and missing immigrants for the jobs they need them for.

I should've been clearer, yes the Tories are participating in the culture war and their stance is obviously resonating more with English voters. Effectively their policy is seemingly to dismiss it.

Maybe the Tories will be found out and the latent damage that Brexit has caused to the UK economy will start to show more readily and be easily attributed to it. I doubt it though - the Tories will likely pin damage on an intransigent EU, covid or anything other than owning their own policy. It's a strategy that's been successful for them to date.

Where do Labour go. They will probably have to tack right similarly to the way they went in relation to the Euro and masterclass in realpolitik that was Browns impossible 5 tests

View · 10-05-2021 8:43pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Being against membership of the EU is not seen as right wing in Britain. It is a legitimate political position held by at least half the population.

Many that identity as left wing supported Brexit.

Labelling Brexit voters as right wing/far right and all the other Twitter outrage is part of the problem for Labour. The southern Labour lot too obsessed with pleasing Twitter influencers.

The overwhelming majority of Labour voters (70%+) backed Remain. Conversely, the overwhelming majority of Conservative voters (70%+) backed Leave. Therefore hostility to EU membership overwhelmingly a right wing position.

It is also completely incorrect to claim ”Many that identity as left wing supported Brexit” when the supposed “many” are clearly a small minority of Labour voters. The reality is that those supposed “left wingers” were, and are, voting for a right wing agenda. The fact that those “left wingers” once were supposedly radical (left-wingers) doesn’t alter the fact they are right wing today.

View · 10-05-2021 8:51pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

That's grand, but it ain't winning votes or elections.

And I was referring only to Brexit and the constant bashing off Brexit voters as uneducated, naive, foolish etc etc.

Labour elite got too obsessed with membership of the EU and forgot that it's ok not to support it.

The Labour elite were, and are, almost as hostile to the EU as their Conservative counterparts. They were almost completely invisible during the referendum campaign and, as soon as the result was announced, immediately backed the U.K. treating a non-binding advisory result (ie advice) as a a legally binding mandatory result (ie an instruction).

View · 10-05-2021 8:56pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Look, I don't have any skin in the game, I'm an overseas commenter.
So if it's not Labours message that's the problem, what is it? Because everything I've seen points to it being the message.
Do you think the culture war resonates in northern England?

If labour are happy to watch the Tories running the country, that's fine - they can look on from the sidelines. But if they want to be in power they will need to move to meet the voters. Voters are not going to change quickly and radically from a position that was 10-15 years in the making.

Or, perhaps, they need to offer an actual alternative vision to that of the Conservatives. Being the “Conservative Light” Party just isn’t working.

Labour’s strategy of waiting until the voters get fed up with the Conservatives and turn to them in despair has failed repeatedly.

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 8:59pm

View wrote: »

The overwhelming majority of Labour voters (70%+) backed Remain. Conversely, the overwhelming majority of Conservative voters (70%+) backed Leave. Therefore hostility to EU membership overwhelmingly a right wing position.

It is also completely incorrect to claim ”Many that identity as left wing supported Brexit” when the supposed “many” are clearly a small minority of Labour voters. The reality is that those supposed “left wingers” were, and are, voting for a right wing agenda. The fact that those “left wingers” once were supposedly radical (left-wingers) doesn’t alter the fact they are right wing today.

Leaving the EU isn't a right wing ideology. There are plenty of countries in Europe not in the EU.

It just so happens that the majority of right wing voters support it. But that doesn't make it a right wing idea.

Leroy42 · 10-05-2021 9:03pm

View wrote: »

Or, perhaps, they need to offer an actual alternative vision to that of the Conservatives. Being the “Conservative Light” Party just isn’t working.

Labour’s strategy of waiting until the voters get fed up with the Conservatives and turn to them in despair has failed repeatedly.

The problem is that the Tories don't actually have a vision, so difficult to offer the alternative.

Johnson has said, and continues to say, that he is against a sea border whilst lauding the deal that he delivered that creates one.

Johnson is claiming that everyone should see how great the vaccine rollout has been vs EU, despite telling us for months that international comparison is meaningless.

Johnson is saying now isn't the time to have a independence debate due to the issues it may cause and everything and everyone should be solely focused on Covid yet spent months telling everyone that the transition shouldn't be extended just because of Covid.

The government that says it backs the NHS but gives out contracts to their mates so the HNS doesn't get the material it needs.

That refuses to get nurses a decent pay rise.

How can anyone have an alternative vision to a government that so openly lies and shows contempt?

marno21 · 10-05-2021 9:13pm

Labour need to take the Joe Biden approach.

Centre left (not John McDonnell) policies, that benefit middle and working classes, that are brief and can be driven home with clever short messaging. The key is not to be drowned out when the Tories try to drag them into a war on cultural and social issues. Joe Biden seems to be very able for this, in ways that many Democrats, who have widely supported economic policies, seem very vulnerable to getting sucked into.

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 9:14pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

The problem is that the Tories don't actually have a vision, so difficult to offer the alternative.

Johnson has said, and continues to say, that he is against a sea border whilst lauding the deal that he delivered that creates one.

Johnson is claiming that everyone should see how great the vaccine rollout has been vs EU, despite telling us for months that international comparison is meaningless.

Johnson is saying now isn't the time to have a independence debate due to the issues it may cause and everything and everyone should be solely focused on Covid yet spent months telling everyone that the transition shouldn't be extended just because of Covid.

The government that says it backs the NHS but gives out contracts to their mates so the HNS doesn't get the material it needs.

That refuses to get nurses a decent pay rise.

How can anyone have an alternative vision to a government that so openly lies and shows contempt?

Voters knew all this and voted that they don't care.

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 9:15pm

marno21 wrote: »

Labour need to take the Joe Biden approach.

Centre left (not John McDonnell) policies, that benefit middle and working classes, that are brief and can be driven home with clever short messaging. The key is not to be drowned out when the Tories try to drag them into a war on cultural and social issues. Joe Biden seems to be very able for this, in ways that many Democrats, who have widely supported economic policies, seem very vulnerable to getting sucked into.

Biden would be classed as right wing for British standards.

Leroy42 · 10-05-2021 9:28pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Voters knew all this and voted that they don't care.

100%, I never said it was otherwise. I was merely pointing that the Tories don't have a vision, more like populist talking points that mean nothing at all.

Also, I don't think they don't care, I just think they don't think Labour offer a better alternative. Understandable since Labour don't seem to know who they are, or what they stand for. People know what the Tories stand for, they stand for the UK, for the NHS, for vaccine wars and fish and anti-immigration.

None of that is actually true of course, but the Tories have done a great job in getting people to believe them when they say stuff despite them constantly lying.

They are massively helped by a supportive media. That Laura K last week, who published a BBC article asking if Johnson really was a liar? As if it was really even in question. [URL="Boris Johnson: What is the PM's relationship with the truth?"]Boris Johnson: What is the PM's relationship with the truth?[/URL]

When you have puff pieces like that ending with 'he just wants to be loved" you can see why the public at large have been taken in by him and this government.

marno21 · 10-05-2021 9:33pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Biden would be classed as right wing for British standards.

He's centre left on a relative scale vs the GOP. A successful Labour leader would need to be centre left vs the Tories. The relative position on an arbitrary scale is unique to both countries but the distance between the two positions should be similar.

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 9:37pm

marno21 wrote: »

He's centre left on a relative scale vs the GOP. A successful Labour leader would need to be centre left vs the Tories. The relative position on an arbitrary scale is unique to both countries but the distance between the two positions should be similar.

I just don't see the comparison between the two countries. American politics completely different to European politics.

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 9:39pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

100%, I never said it was otherwise. I was merely pointing that the Tories don't have a vision, more like populist talking points that mean nothing at all.

Also, I don't think they don't care, I just think they don't think Labour offer a better alternative. Understandable since Labour don't seem to know who they are, or what they stand for. People know what the Tories stand for, they stand for the UK, for the NHS, for vaccine wars and fish and anti-immigration.

None of that is actually true of course, but the Tories have done a great job in getting people to believe them when they say stuff despite them constantly lying.

They are massively helped by a supportive media. That Laura K last week, who published a BBC article asking if Johnson really was a liar? As if it was really even in question. [URL="Boris Johnson: What is the PM's relationship with the truth?"]Boris Johnson: What is the PM's relationship with the truth?[/URL]

When you have puff pieces like that ending with 'he just wants to be loved" you can see why the public at large have been taken in by him and this government.

I've seen hundreds of these posts. Johnson a liar etc etc.

People are just bored now of it. Voters in Britain don't care.

The vaccine success and the government supports during the pandemic kept the voters happy. That's all that mattered - not whether he lies or whether nurses get a pay rise.

BonnieSituation · 10-05-2021 9:41pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

I just don't see the comparison between the two countries. American politics completely different to European politics.

So you keep saying.

The rest of us can see the parallels between British and American politics.

BonnieSituation · 10-05-2021 9:43pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

I've seen hundreds of these posts. Johnson a liar etc etc.

People are just bored now of it. Voters in Britain don't care.

The vaccine success and the government supports during the pandemic kept the voters happy. That's all that mattered - not whether he lies or whether nurses get a pay rise.

So what do you suggest? That no one talks about is corruption at all? That himself and the Tories get away with everything?

Why do you engage in political fora, when all you want to do is have the last word?

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 9:44pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So you keep saying.

The rest of us can see the parallels between British and American politics.

They both speak English. That's about it.

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 9:46pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So what do you suggest? That no one talks about is corruption at all? That himself and the Tories get away with everything?

Why do you engage in political fora, when all you want to do is have the last word?

I don't answer to a rant of questions.

Leroy42 · 10-05-2021 9:47pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

I've seen hundreds of these posts. Johnson a liar etc etc.

People are just bored now of it. Voters in Britain don't care.

The vaccine success and the government supports during the pandemic kept the voters happy. That's all that mattered - not whether he lies or whether nurses get a pay rise.

Again, all that is true, and I'm not saying otherwise.

The point I'm making is that it is a bit much to ask Labour to prosper when, as you say, people simply don't care.

What can Labour offer? They can say they would do a better Brexit, people don't care. They could say they won't lie, so what I got a vaccine? The discussion is what should Labour be doing to get votes.

They could say their lives would be better economically, don't care, Johnson has funny hair.

I'm not denying the reality, I'm saying blaming Labour because the voters in the UK have given up on morals and ethics and critical thinking is a bit much.

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 9:48pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

I just don't see the comparison between the two countries. American politics completely different to European politics.

Politics may be different but you can still draw parallels. I say this as someone who wasn't a biden fan, but he has impressed me so far in the radical nature of his programme, for all that radical may be a relative term there. If he hasn't fully unified the party, then he has at least made genuine efforts to accommodate those on the left without whom he acknowledges he could not have had the victory he did. And the way they managed to get out the vote to get them over the line in places like Georgia was extraordinary. There are major lessons for labour in that if they want to study them.

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 9:52pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Again, all that is true, and I'm not saying otherwise.

The point I'm making is that it is a bit much to ask Labour to prosper when, as you say, people simply don't care.

What can Labour offer? They can say they would do a better Brexit, people don't care. They could say they won't lie, so what I got a vaccine? The discussion is what should Labour be doing to get votes.

They could say their lives would be better economically, don't care, Johnson has funny hair.

I'm not denying the reality, I'm saying blaming Labour because the voters in the UK have given up on morals and ethics and critical thinking is a bit much.

Labour probably have to embrace Brexit better, convince remainers that the argument is over rather than keep the culture war alive in every tweet or article.

They need to ditch Keir and not pick someone with a title in their name. A Sir leading the Labour Party. Who thought that was a good idea.

On economics, the Brits, like Ireland, pretty much in the centre. They support progressive taxation but don't want high taxes. If Labour want to get into office, they really have to become Tory Lite. Just a tad to the left.

Capt'n Midnight · 10-05-2021 9:56pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Where do Labour go. They will probably have to tack right similarly to the way they went in relation to the Euro and masterclass in realpolitik that was Browns impossible 5 tests

Like Labour's 6 impossible tests for Brexit ?

Keir Starmer: Labour has six tests for Brexit – if they’re not met we won’t back the final deal in parliament

Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU?
Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?
Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities?
Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom?
Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime?
Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK?

Sam Russell · 10-05-2021 10:02pm

If Labour want a future they must look to their origins.

They must organize - as the workers unions started. Local and hard work - every local issue worked and resolved. Every issue addressed building a base of loyal voters. Labour started with a few well educated politicians - but they educated themselves - and they stayed of the people - of their origins.

Currently, it can be hard to tell the difference between Labour and Tory MPs.

Leroy42 · 10-05-2021 10:05pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Labour probably have to embrace Brexit better, convince remainers that the argument is over rather than keep the culture war alive in every tweet or article.

They need to ditch Keir and not pick someone with a title in their name. A Sir leading the Labour Party. Who thought that was a good idea.

On economics, the Brits, like Ireland, pretty much in the centre. They support progressive taxation but don't want high taxes. If Labour want to get into office, they really have to become Tory Lite. Just a tad to the left.

That is the bit that gets me. Brexit isn't remotely done, even the Tories accept that but Labour should embrace Brexit? What form of Brexit? Certainly not the current form, it seems they all hate it.

As for Sir Keir, I fail to see how you can one one hand claim people don't care about lying and corruption, yet on the other think a title is a significant factor.

The more I dig into things in the UK, the more I come to the conclusion that while Labour being pretty poor is part of the problem, it is actually not the problem.

I agree with you that that voters in the UK simply don't care. They don't care about the lies about Brexit. They don't care about the economic impact. They don't care about the threats to the Uk itself.

They don't care about how appallingly Covid was dealt with. They don't care that Johnson was more concerned about wallpaper than Cobra meetings about Covid.

None of that resonates. None of it is more important that thinking they are winning.

And Labour keeps talking about the bad stuff. Equality issues and economics and fairness. They don't care they just want to be the best and win and feel like they are the best. And Johnson and the Tories help them feel like that.

Again, I'm not really sure what labour do about it. Claim Brexit is brilliant when all the facts say it isn't? Ignore the corrpution, don't stand up for nurses?

People hate high taxes, but they don't seem to mind crushing austerity. For years. And the Tories haven't even tried to explain how they are going to pay for all the supports, which were badly needed.

General British politics discussion thread

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