General British politics discussion thread

O'Neill

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Maybe the labour leadership taking the side of the establishment and law and order during the statue protests in bristol last year had something to do with it? The anger towards them was palpable at the time so i dont believe this is a surprise. I'm ok with the greens so dont see this as a bad outcome.

As for the red wall, what about places like Preston? A leave constituency where they still got over 60% of the vote in 2019 and which returned every labour councillor last week. What are they doing in Preston that they seem to be failing to do elsewhere?

Well in Hartlepool, apparently the Labour candidate wasn't even from the area FFS :rolleyes: That surely didn't help anyway. What on Earth were they thinking. I know he's a Doctor working during the pandemic so they probably thought that would resonate but having someone not from the area was seriously idiotic imo.

Joe_ Public

Leroy42 wrote: »

They need to do both.

The reaction to the election results is telling. If the results had been times the opposite way (Manchester and London Mayoral results, Scotland etc) it would possibly be the Tories slightly on the defensive. Instead the Tories got to reveal in the Hartlepool result with little of no pushback on the other areas Labour did reasonably well in.

Starmer didn't help by appearing to panic.

What Labour need is ground work to expose the local cuts as Tory lead, to place the responsibility on the govt. THey alway need a better national communication strategy, or a strategy to being with, that hammers home a simple message.

I dont disagree. Which is why i referenced Preston earlier. Because labours success in Preston is almost exclusively down to ground work that they have been doing for many years and managed to convince locals that they are "not being taken for granted", as the saying goes. Preston might not translate nationally, but it's certainly a model for the red wall at a bare minimum i would think. That kind of thing won't happen overnight though, it takes years and possibly multiple election cycles to bear fruit. But they have to start doing it imo.

Joe_ Public

O'Neill wrote: »

Well in Hartlepool, apparently the Labour candidate wasn't even from the area FFS :rolleyes: That surely didn't help anyway. What on Earth were they thinking. I know he's a Doctor working during the pandemic so they probably thought that would resonate but having someone not from the area was seriously idiotic imo.

From what I've read, he's a friend of Jenny Chapman, one of Starmers chief allies, and they imposed him on the clp as a shortlist of one. And then Starmer starts riffing about tory sleaze and sends Mandelson, of all people, up to direct operations. And it's all Angela Rayners fault naturally! They will have another red wall by election very soon in Batley and Spen, the constituency of Jo Cox, so that's going to be another test.

MrMusician18

Say what you like about Mandelson, he knows how to win elections. And he's identified the key reason why they are not at the races here: for the seats they need to win they need to embody "Brexit values" and they don't. Labour need to stop trying to appeal to Guardian opinion writers and more to ordinary voters - even if that means pandering to prejudices that the more "enlightened" in labour find ghastly.

listermint

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Say what you like about Mandelson, he knows how to win elections. And he's identified the key reason why they are not at the races here: for the seats they need to win they need to embody "Brexit values" and they don't. Labour need to stop trying to appeal to Guardian opinion writers and more to ordinary voters - even if that means pandering to prejudices that the more "enlightened" in labour find ghastly.

What an absolute oversimplification as if Brexit values as you put it are what will win now or into the future. Brexit is a shambles talking about how worse your life is now and how the Tories made it that way is a better wider talking point.

Sam Russell

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Say what you like about Mandelson, he knows how to win elections. And he's identified the key reason why they are not at the races here: for the seats they need to win they need to embody "Brexit values" and they don't. Labour need to stop trying to appeal to Guardian opinion writers and more to ordinary voters - even if that means pandering to prejudices that the more "enlightened" in labour find ghastly.

Mandy and Campbell know how to win elections - keep the message simple and keep to the message. Also do not get drawn away from that message.

PommieBast

breezy1985 wrote: »

I assume they lost Bristol because the people who supported Corbyn have switched and given the Greens 60+ new council seats across England.

Bristol will have changed a lot since I lived there, but looking at the results map I'd say it is first-time student voters rather than ex-Corbyn people. Green Party has been picking up a lot of support in Bristol ever since the LibDems fell out of favour.

fiveleavesleft

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Jenny Chapman, one of Starmers chief allies

They are more than that if the juicy gossip we heard over the weekend is to be believed;).

Joe_ Public

Wasnt Mandelson the director of the 2010 election campaign where, internally, they jokingly came up with the slogan "fcked, futile and finished"? Maybe, just maybe, his "magic touch" has deserted him. Didn't seem to rub off on Hartlepool anyway though perhaps that was all Jeremy Corbyns fault, as he was very eager to point out. Corbyn, Rayner, anyone but themselves. These people never seem the most resolute when it comes to accepting personal responsibility.

MrMusician18

listermint wrote: »

What an absolute oversimplification as if Brexit values as you put it are what will win now or into the future. Brexit is a shambles talking about how worse your life is now and how the Tories made it that way is a better wider talking point.

"Brexit values" are about more than Brexit - they are the push back against the progressive left - which obviously doesn't resonate with voters in these constituencies.

So labour can either adopt a more nationalist stance and drop progressive wokeness, or it can remain on the outside.

fiveleavesleft

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Wasnt Mandelson the director of the 2010 election campaign where, internally, they jokingly came up with the slogan "fcked, futile and finished"? Maybe, just maybe, his "magic touch" has deserted him. Didn't seem to rub off on Hartlepool anyway though perhaps that was all Jeremy Corbyns fault, as he was very eager to point out. Corbyn, Rayner, anyone but themselves. These people never seem the most resolute when it comes to accepting personal responsibility.

It's 20 years since those lads won anything. It's been cock up after cock up ever since.

ancapailldorcha

MrMusician18 wrote: »

"Brexit values" are about more than Brexit - they are the push back against the progressive left - which obviously doesn't resonate with voters in these constituencies.

So labour can either adopt a more nationalist stance and drop progressive wokeness, or it can remain on the outside.

There's no such thing as Brexit values. Brexit is a proposal which has been executed and resolved (for the most part). It annoys me that the working classes of economically deprived areas have been homogenised into some sort of bigoted, jingoistic blob who aren't happy unless they see more Union flags.

As I see it, Starmer has two choices. He can be bold and risk alienating one side of his party or he can be bland and inoffensive and let support bleed out to the Tories, Lib Dems and the Greens.

breezy1985

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Maybe the labour leadership taking the side of the establishment and law and order during the statue protests in bristol last year had something to do with it? The anger towards them was palpable at the time so i dont believe this is a surprise. I'm ok with the greens so dont see this as a bad outcome.

As for the red wall, what about places like Preston? A leave constituency where they still got over 60% of the vote in 2019 and which returned every labour councillor last week. What are they doing in Preston that they seem to be failing to do elsewhere?

Again the statue protest is the kind of lose lose stuff they have to deal with now. They probably lost some votes for not taking a "law and order" stance but I know plenty of votes they would lose if they came out against it. I'de know a fair few Labour/green swing voters who would have been supportive of the campaign to get rid of those statues.

Maybe the people of Preston are just more liberal and less.fond of statues than Hartlepool people

Joe_ Public

fiveleavesleft wrote: »

It's 20 years since those lads won anything. It's been cock up after cock up ever since.

This is the guy who has been lecturing people on how labour has lost the working class actually speaking about that working class in 1998 while he was supposedly representing them in parliament:

"Back at Labour conference, Mr Mandelson managed to offend the working class when he dismissed a union campaign to get more MPs elected from a wider range of backgrounds. "It would be a disaster if we thought we could discover some tidy quota system of blue collar, working class, northern, horny-handed, dirty-overalled people to have in our party," he told the Guardian's fringe debate. The party's selection should be "based on merit," he added."

MrMusician18

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There's no such thing as Brexit values. Brexit is a proposal which has been executed and resolved (for the most part). It annoys me that the working classes of economically deprived areas have been homogenised into some sort of bigoted, jingoistic blob who aren't happy unless they see more Union flags.

As I see it, Starmer has two choices. He can be bold and risk alienating one side of his party or he can be bland and inoffensive and let support bleed out to the Tories, Lib Dems and the Greens.

He actually has three choices, he can let things slide and lose votes to the others, he can go hard progressive and continue to lose the north or he can be pragmatic and adopt centre right social/cultural values but lose the Islington set along with the army of student activists that only know how to get triggered on twitter.

MrMusician18

Joe_ Public wrote: »

This is the guy who has been lecturing people on how labour has lost the working class actually speaking about that working class in 1998 while he was supposedly representing them in parliament:

"Back at Labour conference, Mr Mandelson managed to offend the working class when he dismissed a union campaign to get more MPs elected from a wider range of backgrounds. "It would be a disaster if we thought we could discover some tidy quota system of blue collar, working class, northern, horny-handed, dirty-overalled people to have in our party," he told the Guardian's fringe debate. The party's selection should be "based on merit," he added."

Rather ironically isn't that the policy now. You'll have Labour activists saying that the pool of candidates should be based on diversity and gender quotas rather than merit.

Joe_ Public

breezy1985 wrote: »

Again the statue protest is the kind of lose lose stuff they have to deal with now. They probably lost some votes for not taking a "law and order" stance but I know plenty of votes they would lose if they came out against it. I'de know a fair few Labour/green swing voters who would have been supportive of the campaign to get rid of those statues

I'm not suggesting any of this is easy. But it seems clear to me that they made a conscious decision early to push the law and order, progressive patriotism agenda - or whatever they call it - at the expense of alienating the young, liberal vote on the basis they could afford to lose some of the urban vote and that old Blair saying of "they have no place else to go". And now the risks they'll get the worst of both worlds are being borne out, the left deserting in numbers while the right just continues to ignore them anyway. That's tough but then leadership is tough. There's a balance he needs to find there somewhere and fairly soon.

breezy1985

MrMusician18 wrote: »

He actually has three choices, he can let things slide and loose votes to the others, he can go hard progressive and continue to loose the north or he can be pragmatic and adopt centre right social/cultural values but lose the Islington set along with the army of student activists that only know how to get triggered on twitter.

I'm not on Twitter not a student and lived in Southwark not Islington I am also working class and this would describe my friends too.

He would lose us and lots more than the "Islington set" idea that you have sucked up with glee from wherever you get your news

breezy1985

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I'm not suggesting any of this is easy. But it seems clear to me that they made a conscious decision early to push the law and order, progressive patriotism agenda - or whatever they call it - at the expense of alienating the young, liberal vote on the basis they could afford to lose some of the urban vote and that old Blair saying of "they have no place else to go". And now the risks they'll get the worst of both worlds are being borne out, the left deserting in numbers while the right just continues to ignore them anyway. That's tough but then leadership is tough. There's a balance he needs to find there somewhere and fairly soon.

That's pretty much how I see it. The left have the Greens and once the right had UKIP to go to it broke the link of Labour north and made it easier for people up there to fathom voting Tory

MrMusician18

breezy1985 wrote: »

I'm not on Twitter not a student and lived in Southwark not Islington I am also working class and this would describe my friends too.

He would lose us and lots more than the "Islington set" idea that you have sucked up with glee from wherever you get your news

Glee? I couldn't care less what happens to British Labour. This is interesting from a purely political commentary perspective and Labour activists refusing to accept that they are out of touch and blaming the voters for being wrong.

Quite simply the voters in the former red wall do not want what labour are selling. Labour can change or it can wait 10-15 years for the voters to change. That's their choice.

ancapailldorcha

MrMusician18 wrote: »

He actually has three choices, he can let things slide and loose votes to the others, he can go hard progressive and continue to loose the north or he can be pragmatic and adopt centre right social/cultural values but lose the Islington set along with the army of student activists that only know how to get triggered on twitter.

This is just a lazy strawman.

Turning the party into the Conservative party is pointless as we already have a party on the right.

Joe_ Public

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Rather ironically isn't that the policy now. You'll have Labour activists saying that the pool of candidates should be based on diversity and gender quotas rather than merit.

Which policy, more diversity or more "horny handed, dirty overalled" northerners in the party?

MrMusician18

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Which policy, more diversity or more "horny handed, dirty overalled" northerners in the party?

Not choosing people on merit but picking people because they fulfill certain gender and diversity quotas over their ability.

I don't agree with his language but the point of picking a formal coal miner over a much more able individual that doesn't have that background is a valid one.

breezy1985

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Glee? I couldn't care less what happens to British Labour. This is interesting from a purely political commentary perspective and Labour activists refusing to accept that they are out of touch and blaming the voters for being wrong.

Quite simply the voters in the former red wall do not want what labour are selling. Labour can change or it can wait 10-15 years for the voters to change. That's their choice.

I don't believe a word of that. People spitting about the Islington set and triggered students doesnt sound like someone who "couldn't care less"

Joe_ Public

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Not choosing people on merit but picking people because they fulfill certain gender and diversity quotas over their ability.

I don't agree with his language but the point of picking a formal coal miner over a much more able individual that doesn't have that background is a valid one.

Can you give some examples of where that has happened? Who was the former coal miner? I wouldn't say the labour selection process is above reproach by any means, but like it or not, gender and diversity issues are a fact of life and political parties, even the tories, have to pay heed to them.

Strazdas

breezy1985 wrote: »

That's pretty much how I see it. The left have the Greens and once the right had UKIP to go to it broke the link of Labour north and made it easier for people up there to fathom voting Tory

Many of the former left wing Labour voters in the north (the so called Red Wall) seem to be closet right wingers - they definitely approve of the Tories anti-immigration and anti-EU stance, hence them now voting Tory in Hartlepool.

Younger, better educated and more civic minded left wing people seem to be moving to the Greens.

MrMusician18

Strazdas wrote: »

Many of the former left wing Labour voters in the north (the so called Red Wall) seem to be closet right wingers - they definitely approve of the Tories anti-immigration and anti-EU stance, hence them now voting Tory in Hartlepool.

Younger, better educated and more civic minded left wing people seem to be moving to the Greens.

Left economically and right culturally. They are also looking at what years of Labour representation has got them: jack all. To be fair, that's not actually Labours fault, since they were not in government, but it looks like the Tories have stumbled into a successful strategy. Deprive seats you don't hold of services then blame local opposition representation for the lack of services and progress.

hotmail.com

Strazdas wrote: »

Many of the former left wing Labour voters in the north (the so called Red Wall) seem to be closet right wingers - they definitely approve of the Tories anti-immigration and anti-EU stance, hence them now voting Tory in Hartlepool.

Younger, better educated and more civic minded left wing people seem to be moving to the Greens.

Being against membership of the EU is not seen as right wing in Britain. It is a legitimate political position held by at least half the population.

Many that identity as left wing supported Brexit.

Labelling Brexit voters as right wing/far right and all the other Twitter outrage is part of the problem for Labour. The southern Labour lot too obsessed with pleasing Twitter influencers.

breezy1985

hotmail.com wrote: »

Being against membership of the EU is not seen as right wing in Britain. It is a legitimate political position held by at least half the population.

Many that identity as left wing supported Brexit.

Labelling Brexit voters as right wing/far right and all the other Twitter outrage is part of the problem for Labour. The southern Labour lot too obsessed with pleasing Twitter influencers.

I was with you up until this but you just had to tack on the bitter little "kids these days scare me with their new ideas" whinge. People wanting racial, sexual, gender, and class equality goes way beyond a few people you dont like on twitter and Labour are right to back it

MrMusician18

breezy1985 wrote: »

I was with you up until this but you just had to tack on the bitter little "kids these days scare me with their new ideas" whinge. People wanting racial, sexual, gender, and class equality goes way beyond a few people you dont like on twitter and Labour are right to back it

It's not about right or wrong though, it's about what voters want. And seemingly they don't want this version of equality that Labour are peddling.

Labour, if it wants to win elections, needs to recognise and accept this reality. They change, or wait a generation for it to change. Just because this is unpalatable for some activists, doesn't make it less true.