Failing badly at this Dairy lark

il gatto · 08-07-2015 2:04pm

Don't go back to the driving. It's bolide. I have an cousin my own age (late 30s) who ends up sleeping in his cab half the week at the other end of the country. No woman, no kids. Bought a house and never had the time to do it up. It's pure hardship.
Not to get into religion but I always thought Protestants had the right idea about Sundays. No work. Emergencies only. Hay down and there's rain coming? Save it. Otherwise it's a day of rest. They'll do 7 days work in 6 to make sure. I know it's not all of them but most of the ones I'm friendly with and related to keep this tradition going and it's a healthy approach. Whether it's a day away or just watching a match or visiting friends or relations, you have to have time away from work.
Also agree with consolidating your debt. Having a set target each month would be easier on you than having various figures and dates in your head and wondering when the next bill will appear.

whelan2 · 08-07-2015 2:10pm

Op what happens if something happens to you?

Dawggone · 08-07-2015 2:30pm

whelan2 wrote: »

Op what happens if something happens to you?

Insurance.
Being properly borrowed and properly insured is much more important than milking the cows...

the_syco · 08-07-2015 3:13pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I would not advise him to pay into apension untill he has all other finiancial issue sorted. It looks as if his father is not recieving the OAP at present. Pensions are not as biig an issue and return on pension funds is abysmal.

I suppose I agee there. OP says the father got the pension in 2013. Unless the OP is contracted to give him €250 anymore, consider reducing it?

=-=

OP; check with a broker, and get the parents health insurance, and the insurance for the farm/tractor/car/house/etc bundled if you can. And although the pension may not benefit you, get health insurance for yourself, as accidents do happen, especially when you're stressed out!

Greengrass1 · 08-07-2015 3:26pm

Op
consolidate everything. Would it be more than 40k? It's not that much when you add it up. Most farms would have that dept
If so bring it up to 100k and spread it over as long as bank will give you.
Stick in a nice 12 unit parlour do your road ways and reseed some if your farm and stick with the straw bedding. We'll have 100+ cows on straw this winter.
It will make it alot easier on you instead of having all this going around in your head of who you owe money to.
take a break for a day it'll do you the world of good.
At the end of the day you are getting a v cheap farm if that's all the dept.

Jimlh86 · 08-07-2015 4:32pm

Vandy West wrote: »

Op it does not seem like your failing, you seem to have made good progress on paying down debts and expanding numbers. You have doubled the amount of cows in a fairly short time and assuming you would max out at 75 cows, you don't have too much more expansion to finance, and you can then focus on the things that will make the job easier.

+1 from reading your post and obviously not knowing the full extent of the situation, I'd say you're making great progress. I'd be telling your auld lad f&@k all about anything let him do his own thing, sounds like that's what he's done the last 30+ years. I've no experience in dairy but I wouldn't let the farm be totally detremental to your mental health remember you are lucky in many ways. Keep the chin up is the main thing. I know it's an old one but a problem shared is a problem halved so talk to somebody.. Coming on here is a start so well done and best of luck!

il gatto · 08-07-2015 4:48pm

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Op
consolidate everything. Would it be more than 40k? It's not that much when you add it up. Most farms would have that dept
If so bring it up to 100k and spread it over as long as bank will give you.
Stick in a nice 12 unit parlour do your road ways and reseed some if your farm and stick with the straw bedding. We'll have 100+ cows on straw this winter.
It will make it alot easier on you instead of having all this going around in your head of who you owe money to.
take a break for a day it'll do you the world of good.
At the end of the day you are getting a v cheap farm if that's all the dept.

This. I'd love to get back into farming on a small scale but to buy land, build sheds, stock and machines, it's not possible. It's a cheap farm when you look at it this way. Any sort of a business costs money to get into. If you bought a lorry it'd cost you as much. You need to think of it in those terms rather than comparing it to fellas who've been handed 200 acres, a great herd and all the sheds and machines on a plate. They are the exception and often don't appreciate how lucky they are.

patsy_mccabe · 08-07-2015 7:35pm

OP,
To be honest, I think you are being a little disrespectful to your father. He handed you over €1 Million (House site and 95 acres) on a plate and your are complaining about the €40k debt that's going with it. I wish my father had done that for me!

That aside, put the debt to one side and look at the business as it stands alone. If it is viable then the debt isn't an issue. It may even make sense to add to that debt, as stated above to improve things.

Username John · 08-07-2015 8:11pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

OP,
To be honest, I think you are being a little disrespectful to your father. He handed you over €1 Million (House site and 95 acres) on a plate and your are complaining about the €40k debt that's going with it. I wish my father had done that for me!

Ah - I dunno if that's fair to say... Families are always complicated... And it's easy to talk, especially maybe when you have (or had) a good relationship, so are unaware of the bad...

Greengrass1 · 08-07-2015 8:18pm

Username John wrote: »

Ah - I dunno if that's fair to say... Families are always complicated... And it's easy to talk, especially maybe when you have (or had) a good relationship, so are unaware of the bad...

I agree with the last post 40k is not that bad. We had ten times that at one stage with same number of cows and less at one stage as op and my parents managed All be it very tough.

MickeyShtyles · 08-07-2015 8:26pm

Greengrass1 wrote: »

I agree with the last post 40k is not that bad. We had ten times that at one stage with same number of cows and less at one stage as op and my parents managed All be it very tough.

Yeah, but GG, I don't know yer situation, but the op's was due to his fathers squandering and lack of effort towards the farm. So in terms of that I'd regard his debt to be moreso unfortunate.
Just my opinion...

Aska · 08-07-2015 8:39pm

eric prydz wrote: »

Hi Aska
If I was you I would be selling out the dairy cows and using them to clear your debts and provide yourself with a proper income and lifestyle.
Theres nothing stopping you from getting back into milk in a couple of years.

Yea I see your point, tbh if I got out of the cows I doubt I would have the interest in getting back into them, but that is a hard one to call as a possible return to cows would be down the road if I sold off now.

whelan2 wrote: »

stop the 250 a week, thats 12k a year:eek::eek: think what you could do with that, as you previously said that was only supposed to be until 2013

Sorry, I must have worded it incorrectly, the 250 a week was from when I took over (early '11) till he reached pension age in late '13. It drained me of a lot did that 2 and a half years, it was a grand a month when money was very tight hence the previous regimes bills actually grew because at that point I was paying for two houses and all the trimmings.

il gatto wrote: »

Could you find work locally? You could quit the dairying for the time being and go into sucklers. Less work and with 95 acres you could have a good amount of stock to sell off each year. A steady wage combined with regular top ups from selling animals could steady the ship a bit and give you a focus away from the farm 24/7.
Dairying is a tough station. Everyone I know who milks grew up at it as anyone who didn't looks at it and thinks "no way" (aside from the costs of getting into it).
Have you considered fruit and veg? Sell at farmers markets and maybe a farm shop down the line.
I don't farm. Just a few acres with horses. We had one until I was in my teens and my father sold it as it was making nothing (early nineties) and was mostly wet, mountainous ground. Got feck all for it. Someone sold a site for 3 houses on it during the boom and got more than we got for 120 acres So obviously my advice is not worth much.
Sounds like you're working your backside off and making progress, even if it seems slow. You got some good (a decent sized farm) and some bad (historic debt and an unhelpful father), but you're managing better than most could I'd say. Keep the chin up and some day you'll wake up and this period will seem like a lifetime ago.

I don't know much about the suckler but just my opinion, I can't see where getting out of one type of stock and replacing them with another is going to make things any different, well I guess I would manage without roads as sucklers would be easier manage when moving paddocks, maybe!

As for veg etc. there are a lot of guys around this area doing spuds and veg, Dockrell's Veg is a major business in the area so I guess more so they are other people who may look into the land if it was to become available for setting, the more the merrier eh! ha

visatorro wrote: »

keep hold of your partner anyway, she obviously wants to support you or she'd be gone.

That is very true, she's a star. But it would be nice to be able to treat her well too, you know meals etc. at present that doesn't happen and it's not a nice feeling

visatorro wrote: »

the farm will come right. you have said what needs to be done, I wouldn't give up, your doing a cracking job for someone under so much pressure, well done. and when you start getting things ticking over better on the farm you'll have a sense of pride in what your achieveing. keep trucking and keep asking questions here and posting your progress. good luck

Yes everyone here seem to have good opinions, there is no bad opinions, just maybe ones that don't suit certain circumstances.

As most people say, pressure is for tyres haha and at this point I just feel like bursting,

Sam Kade · 08-07-2015 8:48pm

Aska wrote: »

Yes everyone here seem to have good opinions, there is no bad opinions, just maybe ones that don't suit certain circumstances.

As most people say, pressure is for tyres haha and at this point I just feel like bursting,

Out of curiosity how did you manage to double herd size in 4 years with that amount of debt, buying heifer calves?

Aska · 08-07-2015 9:30pm

Sam Kade wrote: »

Really, he's drowning in debt and you're advising him to pay into a pension. It reminds me of my accountant advising me how to deal with a tax bill I couldn't afford to pay he said start a pension plan pay in 3 times the amount of the tax bill I couldn't afford in the first place.

Yea a pension is the 2nd last thing on my mind at present (not calling 999 if the auld lad collapses is #1, haha), merchants got not a penny last month from an 8k cheque and I still managed to only have under 50 quid left at the end of the month to do me nearly 3 weeks (I don't drink or smoke or go anywhere) till this months milk money is here and unless there is a miraculous cheque coming next week I cant see them getting anything this month either.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I am not sure where to start.

First I presume that the 250/week to the father, VHI and other bills you pick up are legally written into the take over agreement. I also take it your father has not reached pension age and will not for a few years. VHI looks like it is ver expensive for two people they may be on the old Plan B go to a Health Insurance broker with your mother and get the policy looked and get a similar policy that will be maybe 60% of the cost. Price Aviva for farm insurance next year.

The way you structure loans over 5 years was maybe a wrong decision however we are where we are. Ignore the agro with you father if going to see your mother call when he is gone to the Pub.

First most of us are facing working to nearly 70. The reality is that while 20 years ago it was not advisable to borrow at 40 now it is different you still have thirty years of a working life ahead of you. If you do not want to restructure over a longer period consider going to the bank and looking for a payment holiday of 12 months on one of the loans. banks are flexible and will understand that with present milk prices you have a cash flow problem.

THe reason you have a tax issue is you have substancial drawings that require you to show income that in reality you cannot afford.This is why you need to restructure you drawings pay the bill that are tax efficient such as silage and contractor bills as well as lowering merchant bills. No point in having to sell 7 maiden heifers again next year. Is your daughter 14+ if so put her on the books as an employee I sure she helps out if she is this age. You will have access to an 8K tax free allowance. You will need to pay her through a bank account but she can withdraw the money and if she gives it to you or your wife for day to day expenses then it helps with day to day bills.

Yea he is on the pension at present so I am not paying the 250 no more, sorry if I didn't make it clearer before. As for the insurance, I only renewed all the farm stuff a month ago, so I really made a balls of that.

holestin cowboy24 wrote: »

aska your doing a good job and your succeeding in your business slowly. you have a good land block. stay milking.. forget the winter milkers tightening calving by 2 weeks every year and sell culls in autumn and use the cull money to live over the winter with calve money in spring til first milk cheque comes along.. join a discussion group asap, there not there to or wont critise you but offer you support and encouragement and help you.. yes bills to be paid same here bills still not cleared from the debt I was given but every month I give everyone a piece of the pie. slowly but surely we get there.

hold on to your wife she sounds a gem and very supportive. cut the auld lads money and use it instead for your own household and spend 2k a year for a holiday or short weekend away over the year.. god knows you deserve a break..

is there any gravel on farm that could be dug out to help for roadways? calve in spring and get grass to cows asap and cheques will rise

hold your head up high and be proud of what you have done.. best of luck in farming career and be no stranger to boards ask questions and we all will offer advice and help you out as much as we can

Food for thought there, thanks a lot.

sundula wrote: »

+1
Sounds like you were rushed into the whole thing.

Life is very short especially with kids. You can't take your own family for granted. Set the place, pay down the debts, get a job that gives you some work life balance. Set it to the right guy, who might undertake fencing/reseeding works as part of the lease, hand it back it better condition or maybe buy it and give you a nicer debt free future.

Cut the cash the to your father (if it's not part of some legal agreement). Make sure the entire property as all legally yours.

Take the time of the lease period to decide what you'd like to do with the place in terms of new buildings and how you could best farm it. If your father is bumming around the place it might be best you were off working at something else for a few years to keep your blood low and give you distance from him.

You can building all the sheds you want and buy stock to beat the band but if you keeping see his stupid face you'll have no good from any of it because it will eat you and someone else will bare the brunt of your bad mood eg. Wife and or kids.

Your decision has to be right for your family and not some perceived family legacy or for you mother whom you seem to have great respect for, you can't risk your finances on the hopes or dreams of others the matter how much you care about them.

With the daughter being only 3, her future is along way down the line, if I go back driving, unless something stupid happens I can't see me giving that up again to come back, if you take that in maybe 20 years the daughter wants to try it, then it's a vicious circle I feel as the sheds that are there now will be decrepit and will need further investment. But that's thinking too far ahead, lord knows what will be happening next week, if I stayed farming and anything was to happen to me the place goes down the tube anyway.

Sam Kade wrote: »

I took it that he had to start paying the 250 from sept 13.

No finished paying then. he hit the pension age

Aska · 08-07-2015 9:39pm

whelan2 wrote: »

Op what happens if something happens to you?

The place gets set or sold, simple as.

Miname · 08-07-2015 9:49pm

Aska wrote: »

Yea a pension is the 2nd last thing on my mind at present (not calling 999 if the auld lad collapses is #1, haha), merchants got not a penny last month from an 8k cheque and I still managed to only have under 50 quid left at the end of the month to do me nearly 3 weeks (I don't drink or smoke or go anywhere) till this months milk money is here and unless there is a miraculous cheque coming next week I cant see them getting anything this month either.

Yea he is on the pension at present so I am not paying the 250 no more, sorry if I didn't make it clearer before. As for the insurance, I only renewed all the farm stuff a month ago, so I really made a balls of that.

Food for thought there, thanks a lot.

With the daughter being only 3, her future is along way down the line, if I go back driving, unless something stupid happens I can't see me giving that up again to come back, if you take that in maybe 20 years the daughter wants to try it, then it's a vicious circle I feel as the sheds that are there now will be decrepit and will need further investment. But that's thinking too far ahead, lord knows what will be happening next week, if I stayed farming and anything was to happen to me the place goes down the tube anyway.

No finished paying then. he hit the pension age

If you accumulated all debts excluding your mortgage would you owe 40k? You might as well be done for a sheep as a lamb, I know it's probably the last thing you want to hear but with 95 acres let's say you can milk 80 cows easily, that's an increase of 24 cows, you've fencing for roadways to be done and say even just by giving the ground a Run of forefront rather than reseeding should make a big change. Change the milking parlour a bit and put up a shed. Another 90-100k could do a lot of it and you've hopefully got an operational business that's not draining both you and your finances. I'd say it would still not be easy but 150k of a loan allowing for little things would be manageable on eighty cows and still have room for expansion.

kevthegaff · 08-07-2015 9:54pm

I think relocating aska is your best bet, sell up clear your debts, buy maybe somewhere in ireland or rent. You would have serious power on the continent either renting land or buying. I think you need to get away but it does sound that yiu enjoy farming. It wont have a positive effect on your family staying around either. Your auld lad as a selfish alco will keep running you down and taking whatever he can, guys like dawg who have relocate successfully prove it is doable, i feel sorry for your ma but your own family are NUMBER 1!

LynnGrace · 08-07-2015 9:56pm

No advice, just want to say that has to be one of the most honest and heartfelt posts I've ever seen on boards. Hope that the advice on here helps. I agree with others, you are not failing, far from it, in fact.
All the best, and I hope that things improve, for you.

Brown Podzol · 08-07-2015 10:00pm

You've come a long way in three years, doubled cow no's and met your commitments. Great credit is due to you. Firstly your issues with your father are costing you an enormous amount of energy, allowing him to live rent free inside your head. Maybe some counselling would help.

A lot of good advice here concerning finance, tax, farm and time management. One thing I don't think has been mentioned is that on the face of it you look a shoo in for GLASS, river bank and coppicing.25k over 5 years. Say 5k for planner and compliance and you have 20k for investment in infrastructure.

55 cows will generate a wage in an average year, so the profit from every cow over this is available for investment or debt reduction, so you have the hardest of it done and the ambition now must be to push on. Don't stop three feet from gold. Cheers and the best of luck in the future whatever you decide to do.

Aska · 08-07-2015 10:02pm

Sam Kade wrote: »

Out of curiosity how did you manage to double herd size in 4 years with that amount of debt, buying heifer calves?

That was the easy part, once the bank cleared their account and gave me their overdraft etc. in loan form I had to ask for money so I could purchase 15 cows outright, there was no way on earth I could have continued with the 28 cows and still survive so being a start up the bank were happy enough.

I did also purchase calves that year as we only had 4 FR replacement calves born and those purchased ones calved winter 14/15, replacements for this year should have been the 7 I sold, but I do have 8 gone in calf that were left, but I will probably still loose 5 or 6 cows this winter through culling and other things, hopefully only 5 or 6 max but time will tell on that.

So some might say 40k is ok that's not too bad, however for me to proceed at the beginning I had to take loans for myself too, so they need to be paid, I didn't harp on about those before cause they are my responsibility, well I guess all of them are now.

It wasn't just that there was 40k debt and get going and you will work it down in time, I had to borrow myself too there was the cow & calf purchases, 5 spans of a hay shed was needed, machinery needed to be updated also and then add in a downturn in the milk and it becomes tough.

Aska · 08-07-2015 10:08pm

kevthegaff wrote: »

Your auld lad as a selfish alco will keep running you down!

funny you should say that, even today. We have this long narrow 15 acre field, it was divided in the middle only with 7 on one side and 8 on the other, there are cement stakes and barb wire down the split so I left it there but I divided each side up into paddocks this year (before it was a summer residence for cattle when we had them), so he asked today how many paddocks have I got down there and I said 7 so his response was 'huh they've fookin nothing to eat'.

Timmaay · 08-07-2015 10:11pm

Aska wrote: »

funny you should say that, even today. We have this long narrow 15 acre field, it was divided in the middle only with 7 on one side and 8 on the other, there are cement stakes and barb wire down the split so I left it there but I divided each side up into paddocks this year (before it was a summer residence for cattle when we had them), so he asked today how many paddocks have I got down there and I said 7 so his response was 'huh they've fookin nothing to eat'.

Have enough arguments similar to that here every day, this isn't going to stop any day soon, so just ignore it, ya need a thick skin in this game.

Aska · 08-07-2015 10:12pm

LynnGrace wrote: »

No advice, just want to say that has to be one of the most honest and heartfelt posts I've ever seen on boards. Hope that the advice on here helps. I agree with others, you are not failing, far from it, in fact.
All the best, and I hope that things improve, for you.

Thank you and thanks to everyone who had participated in this thread, I really appreciated the comments there is certainly some worthwhile reading here.

Aska · 08-07-2015 10:20pm

Miname wrote: »

Change the milking parlour a bit and put up a shed. Another 90-100k could do a lot of it and you've hopefully got an operational business that's not draining both you and your finances. I'd say it would still not be easy but 150k of a loan allowing for little things would be manageable on eighty cows and still have room for expansion.

You know at this moment in time I would rather curl up and die than consider taking out a large loan again, I feel I want to get the few years over with and get rid of the 'old' debt and then concentrate on my own loans

Aska · 08-07-2015 10:27pm

A lot of posters talking of consolidating loans, can I ask this then please. What about setting the place? has anyone done this before or been close to someone who has?

Maybe I am looking at it with rose tinted glasses but all I can nearly see is good from that scenario.

95 Acres
58 Cows
8 Maiden heifers
11 FR H calves
1 FR Bull.
(2 x sheepdogs ha)
Sheds
Machinery
SFP (10k)

Surely that would draw in some amount of money while then working (driving again) for 500 a week in the hand if in Ireland or 650 for UK Ireland. While also getting a life back

Sam Kade · 08-07-2015 10:32pm

Aska wrote: »

You know at this moment in time I would rather curl up and die than consider taking out a large loan again, I feel I want to get the few years over with and get rid of the 'old' debt and then concentrate on my own loans

You would be better off keep extra heifers from your own stock and increase numbers over a few years.

Someyolk · 08-07-2015 10:42pm

Haven't read all the replies so sorry if I am repeating what's been said.
A lot of lads hate farming and stay at it for their parents sake. Not the case here. Stick at it if you enjoy it. Look after yourself and your family first and don't bring your problems into the house every evening and make sure TO go into the house every evening. Your daughter will grow up fast. Don't miss it.
You've only one set of parents. Don't say what you may regret later. Don't blame your old man for his lack of investment. Maybe farming wasn't his thing. Maybe he was forced into it. You are not. He's after giving you 90 acres with a sfp of 10k a year.
Talk to the bank. I've always found them very helpful (as long as you can repay). You seem to be paying back a fortune every month.
Don't worry about reseeding or roadways until you happy with what you can repay. Selling heifers to pay a tax bill is not the answer. Maybe talk to teagasc or get a private planner even for an hour or two to let off some steam and they might have some ideas.
Try and Have a more positive outlook on things. Your thinking "oh no I've huge loans to pay off". Try thinking "I've 90 acres and a family"
I lost a fortune when the boom ended but I never lost a nights sleep over it. I started a family since and they are my priority now. I just kept telling myself it could have been worse. I've worked at my loans for the last 6 years and now things are looking up. Hope it works out for you and keep the board updated.

the_syco · 08-07-2015 11:58pm

General question to the farmers here; would being a farmer be classed as self employed in the eyes of the tax man, and if so, can you write stuff off that you buy against tax?

And if so, who should the OP talk to regarding certain things against his tax bill? Esp with all the tightening up of what a self-employed person can write stuff off as work related that has happened in the last year or two.

screamer · 09-07-2015 12:04am

Do the sensible thing- sell up and move away. Put your own family first, land is just land, it won't keep you warm at night. Many a person I have seen spend a miserable existence with this addiction to "de land", you've not got it, so sell up, give your auld lad whatever you think is fair (if anything at all) and get out of there, simple.

Deepsouthwest · 09-07-2015 12:12am

Aska wrote: »

A lot of posters talking of consolidating loans, can I ask this then please. What about setting the place? has anyone done this before or been close to someone who has?

Maybe I am looking at it with rose tinted glasses but all I can nearly see is good from that scenario.

95 Acres
58 Cows
8 Maiden heifers
11 FR H calves
1 FR Bull.
(2 x sheepdogs ha)
Sheds
Machinery
SFP (10k)

Surely that would draw in some amount of money while then working (driving again) for 500 a week in the hand if in Ireland or 650 for UK Ireland. While also getting a life back

The income from that set up should leave u far more than €500/€650 a week, plus u get to live at home and see ur wife and child every single day, which is more important than any job. Leaving to go driving in England would torture me, esp with a 3 yr old, and a wife who's supported through this all.

Failing badly at this Dairy lark

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