Failing badly at this Dairy lark

Toplink · 07-07-2015 11:30pm

I know nothing about dairying but your an admirable fellow and your far from failing.

I wouldn't be paying VHI or booze money for my ould fella though. The party is over... You have a family to feed. What situation would he be in if you decided not to take over?

mf240 · 07-07-2015 11:40pm

Forget the auld fella. Dont let him get to you. Plus your mother wont need the stress .

As regards resseding and roads . Could you manage without for a few years maybe fencing a strip along the edge of the fields to get to the next one. It wont be pretty but it will allow the rest of the grass in that field get up while there grazing the next one.

Take a soil test. You may get a response from lime and p and k for a fraction of the cost of reseeding.

keep going · 07-07-2015 11:46pm

first question is how does your wife feel about this and what does she think you should do.next up find some way of getting your father out of your head.and on to the farm,i think and I mean this in positive way you lack direction and focus in your business because you cant see beyond your financial problems.it sounds to me like you could use some advice and a sounding board to figure what to do.if you have been following f and f here maybe you could pick a couple of posters that you think you could get on with here to pm and go into more detail with them,the danger on here is you will get 10 different opinions and you will end up as confused as before.if you can get your head right you will be surprised how things will come around,been there

blue5000 · 08-07-2015 12:33am

OP it sounds like you are stuck in a rut. Write down all your achievements to date. Try forget about the past, avoid your father as much as possible, sounds like he is a drain on your energy.
Ballpark according to my teagasc advisor is it costs around 30-33k to live with a family your size, that's not including handouts to the parents. How far off that are you? If you are in winter milk is it paying you? Farm assist might be an option for a couple of years to help pay living expenses, but I'm not sure if you'll qualify.

You are caught between a rock and a hard place, bedding cows on straw is labour intensive, both bedding them and mucking out, but you can't afford to build right now either.

Try talk things over with your wife, where do you want to be in 5 years?

Sorry I have no magic solutions.

Aska · 08-07-2015 12:34am

farmersfriend wrote: »

Hi aska, just wondering are you milking ayr?
Maybe u could go all spring and dry off for a few weeks in the winter.
Maybe u could pick up a bit of work driving then.

I am milking all year yes, the way it is, I couldn't do without the few quid over say winter months, it may be small but it's something, plus there are 12 month loan repayment/bills, only 1 loan of 1600 a month is for 6 straight months (mar-sept) so while that is gone for the other 6 months it's during the winter period where milk money is lower and there are always other things that creep up and need to be paid that you don't exactly plan for as you know.

Timmaay wrote: »

Do you calf anything in the autumn? Would OAD milking make since for the winter, would help you find time for off farm work also. But trust me it's not long since I was in a similar situation with poor grassland and a dire winter diet, both of which threw away kgs of MS. In fairness both problems didn't actually take a huge amount of spending to solve, good grassland management only costs you 30mins a week in doing a grass walk, and about 100 euros in temporary pegs reels and polywire, for the winter milk I ditched the most of the autumn calvers and pushed them around to the spring, late spring milkers cover the most of our contract milk, they are tipping over by then, with a much lower demand for feed. In terms of their diet, afew high dmd very leafy bales of silage are every bit as good as any sort of diet feeder made up tmr, which is only a quick way to going broke (or broker in your case...).

Ultimately your between a rock and a hard place definitely, but if your going to continue dairying then you got plenty of low hanging fruit like above which will hugely improve efficiency at a very little cost. Are you part of a dairy discussion group? They are fantastic to help you raise your game. Also don't be afraid to ask any questions at all up here on boards, loads of very experienced farmers here, and no question is too stupid to ask ha.

I was calving earlier last couple of years but I found them early calver's were well back in milk come time to go out, so I left it a little later for this year before the bull assaulted them.

I am not part of a group, I will be straight and say I was too embarrassed when I took over due to the state of the place and now is not much better but headed in the correct direction, but I doubt I could handle 20 guys looking at it all, from the road people probably say 'there's a fine farm of land' but no one knows what it's like behind those gates.

mf240 wrote: »

As regards resseding and roads . Could you manage without for a few years maybe fencing a strip along the edge of the fields to get to the next one. It wont be pretty but it will allow the rest of the grass in that field get up while there grazing the next one.

That was the way it was done in 2 fields but back then he never bothered to get someone with a power-harrow in to level it every once in a while so he re-fenced outside of that and the original one got grown over with briars and the likes, I got them cleaned up a couple of months back, no stone yet, but at least the ditch is back where it should be.

keep going wrote: »

first question is how does your wife feel about this and what does she think you should do.

She feels bad at times, thinks she should be able to bring in more wages to the house and ease the pain but I don't mind that, she can't do anymore hours than they give her. Holidays would hit her cause we don't go anywhere as a family. She for the past 4 years has gone on holidays with her parents when they go abroad in may, for the past 2 years she has brought the daughter with her too.

keep going wrote: »

i think and I mean this in positive way you lack direction and focus in your business because you cant see beyond your financial problems.it sounds to me like you could use some advice and a sounding board to figure what to do.if you have been following f and f here maybe you could pick a couple of posters that you think you could get on with here to pm and go into more detail with them,the danger on here is you will get 10 different opinions and you will end up as confused as before.if you can get your head right you will be surprised how things will come around,been there

As they say, I'm a long time reader first time contributor here, spent many a year looking at the board and reading all the stuff from the different members, all seem to have a good base of knowledge, I have seen over time that if you even have what may seem like the silly question that there is always someone here to answer that question, and no one comes down hard on anyone for asking a trivial question, because if you don't ask, you will never know.

Timmaay · 08-07-2015 12:58am

Aska wrote: »

I am milking all year yes, the way it is, I couldn't do without the few quid over say winter months, it may be small but it's something, plus there are 12 month loan repayment/bills, only 1 loan of 1600 a month is for 6 straight months (mar-sept) so while that is gone for the other 6 months it's during the winter period where milk money is lower and there are always other things that creep up and need to be paid that you don't exactly plan for as you know.

That's only a bit of disciple 2bh, banking a small bit of each of the summer milk cheques to tide you over the winter. I can guarantee you that if you calf them cows in February/March, get them out to grass early and improve grassland management then your milk cheques will be substantially higher during the summer months, wayyy more so than if you had freshly calved cows been fed a diet of mostly average quality silage all winter. It's honestly a win win, and only takes a small bit of pain in implementing the discipline to hold over some of each of the summer months milk cheques.

I am not part of a group, I will be straight and say I was too embarrassed when I took over due to the state of the place and now is not much better but headed in the correct direction, but I doubt I could handle 20 guys looking at it all, from the road people probably say 'there's a fine farm of land' but no one knows what it's like behind those gates.

Felt the very same the 1st time the DG came in my gate. I explained where I'd come from and what I was aiming for, everyone was very open and some very useful and helpful suggestions came out of the meeting. I remember I was embarrassed about the acre or so of pure rushes bang in the middle of the farm in full view of everyone, one chap totally laughed that off and said go look at his place. No farm is perfect and we all have to start somewhere. What I've gained out of the DG has far outweighed any minor potential embarrassments ha.

fanadman1 · 08-07-2015 1:12am

Im not that knowalageable or experenced but in quite a similer posistion albeit not as bad and in differnt systems. I recently took over my uncles farm it was sheep and sucklers. The farm consisted of 2 blocks one of 57 acres with only the boundary fences and 27 actes of hill which again is one big field. As in your case the farm was neglected and is overgrown with bushes and briars. Where i am better of is the fact that there are quite little dept on the farm and i am only 21. This has been a disadvantage as being so young the banks have been laughing at me every time i wanted money. I know this post is no help to you but if its any advantage it has given me great hope to know sombody else is fighting the uphill battle and winning.

the_syco · 08-07-2015 1:48am

Aska wrote: »

I’m 39 now

I hope you have started putting money aside for a pension! If not, consider starting one.

=-=

Is there only the one house on the land? Would it be possible to get a loan and build a "granny flat" near the road (ie; far enough away that he can't bug you) that you can put them into, move into the main house, and get rid of your current house repayments? Would it shave off any debt?

eric prydz · 08-07-2015 2:54am

Hi Aska
If I was you I would be selling out the dairy cows and using them to clear your debts and provide yourself with a proper income and lifestyle.
Theres nothing stopping you from getting back into milk in a couple of years.

whelan2 · 08-07-2015 6:16am

stop the 250 a week, thats 12k a year:eek::eek: think what you could do with that, as you previously said that was only supposed to be until 2013

il gatto · 08-07-2015 6:38am

Could you find work locally? You could quit the dairying for the time being and go into sucklers. Less work and with 95 acres you could have a good amount of stock to sell off each year. A steady wage combined with regular top ups from selling animals could steady the ship a bit and give you a focus away from the farm 24/7.
Dairying is a tough station. Everyone I know who milks grew up at it as anyone who didn't looks at it and thinks "no way" (aside from the costs of getting into it).
Have you considered fruit and veg? Sell at farmers markets and maybe a farm shop down the line.
I don't farm. Just a few acres with horses. We had one until I was in my teens and my father sold it as it was making nothing (early nineties) and was mostly wet, mountainous ground. Got feck all for it. Someone sold a site for 3 houses on it during the boom and got more than we got for 120 acres

So obviously my advice is not worth much.
Sounds like you're working your backside off and making progress, even if it seems slow. You got some good (a decent sized farm) and some bad (historic debt and an unhelpful father), but you're managing better than most could I'd say. Keep the chin up and some day you'll wake up and this period will seem like a lifetime ago.

visatorro · 08-07-2015 7:39am

keep hold of your partner anyway, she obviously wants to support you or she'd be gone. milk the cows early one sunday and go off in the car somewhere, a walk on the beach and a bag of chips isn't goin to break you, but its important.
tell the old lad to feck off. and violence isn't always the answer but if you had to give him a clatter again, what harm. Im not critising your mother but is she living in a different world that she cant see what is goin on and what he is doin to her only son.
the farm will come right. you have said what needs to be done, I wouldn't give up, your doing a cracking job for someone under so much pressure, well done. and when you start getting things ticking over better on the farm you'll have a sense of pride in what your achieveing. keep trucking and keep asking questions here and posting your progress. good luck

il gatto · 08-07-2015 8:15am

Avoid the auld fella rather than smacking him. I'm sure it's tempting but one punch can kill. You don't need that and your wife, kid and mother certainly don't. You do even a short stretch and the farm will be gone and possibly your home. I have a short fuse at times and have got into scuffles with family in the past and you feel like sh1t afterwards even if it was their fault. Just ignore the old coot and maybe explain bluntly the clusterf@ck he's saddled you with.

Nekarsulm · 08-07-2015 8:44am

Have to agree about cutting out the 250 a week payment. If your dads getting the non contributsry pension, then that's over 400 a week coming to them in total. Most farming couples who are now in their 70's and retired never had that sort of cash weekly in their lives till now.

Sam Kade · 08-07-2015 9:44am

the_syco wrote: »

I hope you have started putting money aside for a pension! If not, consider starting one.

=-=

Is there only the one house on the land? Would it be possible to get a loan and build a "granny flat" near the road (ie; far enough away that he can't bug you) that you can put them into, move into the main house, and get rid of your current house repayments? Would it shave off any debt?

Really, he's drowning in debt and you're advising him to pay into a pension. It reminds me of my accountant advising me how to deal with a tax bill I couldn't afford to pay he said start a pension plan pay in 3 times the amount of the tax bill I couldn't afford in the first place.

Farmer Pudsey · 08-07-2015 10:29am

I am not sure where to start.

First I presume that the 250/week to the father, VHI and other bills you pick up are legally written into the take over agreement. I also take it your father has not reached pension age and will not for a few years. VHI looks like it is ver expensive for two people they may be on the old Plan B go to a Health Insurance broker with your mother and get the policy looked and get a similar policy that will be maybe 60% of the cost. Price Aviva for farm insurance next year.

The way you structure loans over 5 years was maybe a wrong decision however we are where we are. Ignore the agro with you father if going to see your mother call when he is gone to the Pub.

First most of us are facing working to nearly 70. The reality is that while 20 years ago it was not advisable to borrow at 40 now it is different you still have thirty years of a working life ahead of you. If you do not want to restructure over a longer period consider going to the bank and looking for a payment holiday of 12 months on one of the loans. banks are flexible and will understand that with present milk prices you have a cash flow problem.

THe reason you have a tax issue is you have substancial drawings that require you to show income that in reality you cannot afford.This is why you need to restructure you drawings pay the bill that are tax efficient such as silage and contractor bills as well as lowering merchant bills. No point in having to sell 7 maiden heifers again next year. Is your daughter 14+ if so put her on the books as an employee I sure she helps out if she is this age. You will have access to an 8K tax free allowance. You will need to pay her through a bank account but she can withdraw the money and if she gives it to you or your wife for day to day expenses then it helps with day to day bills.

holestin cowboy24 · 08-07-2015 10:46am

aska your doing a good job and your succeeding in your business slowly. you have a good land block. stay milking.. forget the winter milkers tightening calving by 2 weeks every year and sell culls in autumn and use the cull money to live over the winter with calve money in spring til first milk cheque comes along.. join a discussion group asap, there not there to or wont critise you but offer you support and encouragement and help you.. yes bills to be paid same here bills still not cleared from the debt I was given but every month I give everyone a piece of the pie. slowly but surely we get there.

hold on to your wife she sounds a gem and very supportive. cut the auld lads money and use it instead for your own household and spend 2k a year for a holiday or short weekend away over the year.. god knows you deserve a break..

is there any gravel on farm that could be dug out to help for roadways? calve in spring and get grass to cows asap and cheques will rise

hold your head up high and be proud of what you have done.. best of luck in farming career and be no stranger to boards ask questions and we all will offer advice and help you out as much as we can

whelan2 · 08-07-2015 12:03pm

whupdedo wrote: »

Why not sell it or plant it , life is too short to be paying for the laziness and bad management of your father , at least if you went back driving you'll be earning a constant wage , this isn't the time to get sentimental , you have a family to think of , put them first and have a few bob in your pocket for the future

dont think it can be sold within 5 years of transfer without major tax implications

the_syco · 08-07-2015 12:04pm

Sam Kade wrote: »

Really, he's drowning in debt and you're advising him to pay into a pension.

Of the €250 he's paying the father, he should put €150 into the pension. The father is getting a pension, so feck him.

As per what Farmer Pudsey says about getting cheaper insurance for the folks (they may be insured for things that they'll never need), check if you can get the health/farm/tractor/car/etc insurance all with the one company? Perhaps a broker can help set this up, as it can work out cheaper.

Farmer Pudsey · 08-07-2015 12:09pm

the_syco wrote: »

Of the €250 he's paying the father, he should put €150 into the pension. The father is getting a pension, so feck him.

As per what Farmer Pudsey says about getting cheaper insurance for the folks (they may be insured for things that they'll never need), check if you can get the health/farm/tractor/car/etc insurance all with the one company? Perhaps a broker can help set this up, as it can work out cheaper.

I would not advise him to pay into apension untill he has all other finiancial issue sorted. It looks as if his father is not recieving the OAP at present. Pensions are not as biig an issue and return on pension funds is abysmal.

whelan2 · 08-07-2015 12:20pm

aska says in his op that he reached pension age in sept 2013

frazzledhome · 08-07-2015 12:27pm

OP, you've completely mid labelled this thread you're far from failing in fact you've made great progress.

Consider you had 28 cows taking over and now 50. That's a gain of 22 cows @€;1200 giving you a growth in stick value of €26400.

From the information you've given the real problem I see is cash flow rather than income. The biggest issue IMV is your attempt to pay down your loans too quickly.

I know what your saying about long term borrowing but its borrowed and the term should be doubled leaving more free cash in the business. This cash is important to pay your day to day expenses.

I'd continue to milk for the winter carrying over any empty cows from the spring group and bulling with Fr in Dec. You need to build numbers to either sell more milk or stock in order to keep cash flowing in these early years. 58 cows in calf to fr will on average put 26 heifer calves on the ground.

Your winter set up sounds fine once your not in danger of losing some if your payment for non compliance.

There's a few areas that you can work on that won't cost you any money namely, getting base milk price. You must ensure top quality feed for cows that are milking. Don't calve Autumn girls too early and continue milking the others till 70-80 prior to calving. Don't calve spring cows till first wk of Feb

Spend a bit in a soil test and address ph as a priority. The best return on investment is from ph with p&k.

Probably the first thing to do is join a group and get them to visit. You cannot imagine how this will invigorate you and your loyal wife. When it'll really hit home is when you visit other farms with the group and see that your further along than you think.

Next Sunday get up milk early, milk and load wife and child and get out of Dodge for a few hours. Go to the woods, beach or local river. Let the little one off the lead, watch her explore and its amazing the joy and release you'll get from it.

A pizza and ice cream on the way home will do ye all wonders. Milk late and phuck it for one evening. I'd be amazed if that doesn't clear your head.

I'm not going to advise on wheather to continue along the road your in or not, that has to be your decision.

My last word is you haven't failed, far from it. Your so caught up with your worries that you may not be able to see the wood from the trees.

It happens to us all

sundula · 08-07-2015 12:38pm

bonaparte2 wrote: »

" most days you would rather be dead than face that place"

Walk away, lifes too short, lease the place long term probably the best option

+1
Sounds like you were rushed into the whole thing.

Life is very short especially with kids. You can't take your own family for granted. Set the place, pay down the debts, get a job that gives you some work life balance. Set it to the right guy, who might undertake fencing/reseeding works as part of the lease, hand it back it better condition or maybe buy it and give you a nicer debt free future.

Cut the cash the to your father (if it's not part of some legal agreement). Make sure the entire property as all legally yours.

Take the time of the lease period to decide what you'd like to do with the place in terms of new buildings and how you could best farm it. If your father is bumming around the place it might be best you were off working at something else for a few years to keep your blood low and give you distance from him.

You can building all the sheds you want and buy stock to beat the band but if you keeping see his stupid face you'll have no good from any of it because it will eat you and someone else will bare the brunt of your bad mood eg. Wife and or kids.

Your decision has to be right for your family and not some perceived family legacy or for you mother whom you seem to have great respect for, you can't risk your finances on the hopes or dreams of others the matter how much you care about them.

Sam Kade · 08-07-2015 12:49pm

whelan2 wrote: »

aska says in his op that he reached pension age in sept 2013

I took it that he had to start paying the 250 from sept 13.

Future Farmer · 08-07-2015 1:02pm

Hi Aska,

My heart bleeds for you, I have friends in similar situations.

Write a farm (& life) plan - 1 year - 5 year - 10 year - lay out what you want to achieve in an organised rational way.

Small steps can lead to big achievements: It would really surprise want grants etc are out there and how lots of stuff can be achieved on the cheap.

On roadways: You seem like a man, who knows his way around a machine. Don't be afraid to ask neighbour for a loan of a digger (Barter is ALWAYS good- it's how we cut our silage). Or let the council workers know if they are doing any roadworks locally they can dump scrapping and excess filling in with you. You'd be surprised what you can get for free!

On a Keenan: We also bought a very cheap 2nd I mean 3rd or 4th hand Keenan 8 years ago - Easy Feed 100 - it's a 1990 - had just been reconditioned - no blades, which we are using for feeding (we have a blower that we chop beet with) - €4,000.

Join a discussion group (you'd be surprised how many are in you boat) or try get a day or two work off farm - Farm Relief, Co-op, Mart, Milk Recording- I think you'd be surprised what it could do for you, mentally as well as financially.

I'd contact a local advisor if I was you, don't be afraid to ask for help, you have what you have, don't be embarrassed you clearly want to improve the farm, don't hide away, the benefits will out-way the embarrassment.

Best of luck.

Boards.ie is here to help.

votuvant · 08-07-2015 1:06pm

frazzledhome wrote: »

OP, you've completely mid labelled this thread you're far from failing in fact you've made great progress.

Consider you had 28 cows taking over and now 50. That's a gain of 22 cows @€;1200 giving you a growth in stick value of €26400.

From the information you've given the real problem I see is cash flow rather than income. The biggest issue IMV is your attempt to pay down your loans too quickly.

*****************

Probably the first thing to do is join a group and get them to visit. You cannot imagine how this will invigorate you and your loyal wife. When it'll really hit home is when you visit other farms with the group and see that your further along than you think.

Next Sunday get up milk early, milk and load wife and child and get out of Dodge for a few hours. Go to the woods, beach or local river. Let the little one off the lead, watch her explore and its amazing the joy and release you'll get from it.

A pizza and ice cream on the way home will do ye all wonders. Milk late and phuck it for one evening. I'd be amazed if that doesn't clear your head.

I'm not going to advise on wheather to continue along the road your in or not, that has to be your decision.

My last word is you haven't failed, far from it. Your so caught up with your worries that you may not be able to see the wood from the trees.

It happens to us all

+1 on this.

I am not in dairy but faced a similar situation to you and am the same age as well and the same size family. The farm was neglected for years (also through alcoholism) and new debts turned almost weekly when I took over. I also had issues with Dad telling me what to do when he clearly did nothing and it often boiled over. Nothing was ever right even though I was breaking my balls on the place. Eventually I just had to get over it (easier said than done I know) because it just depressed me to much. You cant change the past only the future. I was working full time but with a similar income and I was under serious pressure. Biggest help to me was to get one big loan and consolidate everything over 10 years. That allowed me the freedom to plan because I knew what I had to repay and could work around that. Cash flow is the biggest stress so once you know your outgoings you will get a handle on it.

I joined a suckler discussion group and was frankly embarrassed to have them round. In actual fact what happened is that when I was saying how little I had done most were pointing out what I had achieved. I'm only two years into the reseeding programme after draining etc. and your setup is probably different but I found a battery electric fencer, a cable reel and some pig tail posts had a dramatic improvement on my grassland management at the start. Still nowhere near where I want to be but I'll get there yet and I've no doubt you will too.

Definitely make Sunday a family day as much as possible. Even if its only going for a drive as a family and stopping for an ice cream it puts things into perspective.

Rome wasn't built in a day and you clearly have achieved a lot so best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

cute geoge · 08-07-2015 1:16pm

imo they will be no fear of you once you get up and running ,
The fire in you will drive you on to succeed and work seems no bother to you
V.h.i bill for old folks should be looked into as it should be cheaper elsewhere
My wife insists sunday is family day and we go for a bite to eat and a drive ,good to get away
It might be tough sailing for a few more years with bad milk price but that will turn again
Driving trucks is no better for family life so stick with what you have for another bit anyway

Dawggone · 08-07-2015 1:37pm

This is a cash flow issue.
Borrow enough, for long enough.
Regardless of what others say here you are not swamped by debt.
Farm plus stock etc is worth well in excess of a million...

You need good financial advice from a savvy person.

I had over seventy times more borrowed in my fifties than my thirties, and I started a lot smaller than you.

Perspective. You need to look at your situation like a businessman not a farmer doing a daily grind.

Chin up and box clever.
If you are contracted to pay your family money, then continue to do so. I'd pay myself and my family before I'd pay any bank.

I mean this in the best possible way.

frazzledhome · 08-07-2015 1:46pm

Dawggone wrote: »

This is a cash flow issue.
Borrow enough, for long enough.
Regardless of what others say here you are not swamped by debt.
Farm plus stock etc is worth well in excess of a million...

You need good financial advice from a savvy person.

I had over seventy times more borrowed in my fifties than my thirties, and I started a lot smaller than you.

Perspective. You need to look at your situation like a businessman not a farmer doing a daily grind.

Chin up and box clever.
If you are contracted to pay your family money, then continue to do so. I'd pay myself and my family before I'd pay any bank.

I mean this in the best possible way.

Couldn't agree more. There's more business' have folded from bad financial decisions around borrowing than for any lack of ability.

Dawggone · 08-07-2015 1:51pm

frazzledhome wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. There's more business' have folded from bad financial decisions around borrowing than for any lack of ability.

+1.

Failing badly at this Dairy lark

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