Failing badly at this Dairy lark

Aska

Hi All,

This could be along winded exercise but I am not looking for pity, advice more so and probably a good kick in the nads to help me realise my fate. This had been brewing for some time now and it really started to hit home in the ’holiday’ thread on here.

I’m 39 now, I came back home to farm 4 years ago, just before I turned 35. For the past 15 years I was working on farms in Cork & New Ross and Arklow for little pay (this was all when I left school and Ag college so we are talking from ’95-’00. Then I went and began driving trucks started with a cement mixer and then I progressed onto the artic’s and doing UK & Ireland for the likes of Nolan’s etc.

So I am an only child and 4 years ago there was a mad panic to get me back home, I knew I would have to go sometime but I really wasn’t sure when and I had always been informed that there wasn’t enough in the place to have me back, Of course years earlier the auld lad wouldn’t take early retirement, no sir, he was too stubborn for that. But in the latter years before I came back he actually did feck all, the mother milked the few cows and fed the calves etc while he sat on his arse and drank, if I am honest.

I had my own house a few hundred yards up the road but my savings were diminishing fast due to the last haulier I worked for, when he had no work he sat you at home with no pay and mortgage and bills to be paid so that don’t take long to eat in to your reserve.

So I take over in April ’11 and that’s when the fun began. I was informed by himself that there was nothing owed, you’ll make a great tidy living etc. and all that BS, well that was the beginning of the lies.
Stocking Loan for €10000 was overdue and was now almost €11000,
Silage from previous year was unpaid €3600
Merchant fees from previous years I assume were €14000 plus change (you know one of these accounts that was never paid off in full from year to year)
another contractor owed a couple of grand for work like cleaning sheds, slurry, silage bales….

Bank overdraft was €8000, this was maxed out to the limit also so as you can imagine there was NO money in the account, and 28 cows for milking, so that cheque was a real eye opener.

The woman in the bank did her best and gave me a spanking new bank account for the farm while also giving me an €18000 loan that I get to pay back over the following 5 years so that the stocking loan and overdraft on their old account is cleared.

Solicitor also informs me that I must pay him €250 a week till he hit pension age (occurred in Sept ’13)
So as you can imagine, trying to run two houses with utility bills and VHI for them and giving that waste of space €1000 a month out of a creamery cheque of 28 cows was a complete joy.

Here’s where the fun really starts when you look deeper, he sold 3 sites over the years 2 for €25000 each when the boom was just beginning and then a further site for €75000 when things were flying in the building, however the only shed that was put up in the last 41 years was a 3 span open hayshed, no concrete just pillars and sheeting on roof and one length down the side. Purchased a slurry tanker in 2004 but that was placed over 5 years so it wouldn’t really eat into the land sales., no fencing, lord no. he loved the reps back then as you just let the bushes and briars be your fencing on boundary ditches, no roadways put in during the 45 years he is there, to give you an idea, there is one particular field, it’s in the block but it’s the furthest away, well the cows walk through one field and into another then mosey through that field into the one I speak of, however if they would like a drink they come back to the previous field for the trough., you really couldn’t make this up, it’s a pure disgrace.

Where did the money go all those years you ask, well it went on beer and fags, that’s it, no holidays, he was too miserable to bring the mother away, didn’t buy new cars or anything like that, in fact the main silage field is 19 acres, it has not been ploughed since 1981 and silage is cut from that EVERY year, I have that lined up for this year to be done, but that plan could fall asunder damn easily. Of course as soon as some muppet like myself takes over you have to listen to crap like, ‘you need to build more sheds’ ‘you need to reseed or you will have nothing’ etc… So I put him through the bin in the kitchen one day, had the mother not bet me off of him with the brush handle I think I would have either killed him or hospitalized him that day, Every day (and this is a horrible thing to say, but it’s the way I feel), I pray that he is going out the front door feet first the following day.

Why am I thinking I am not going to succeed…. Well I have over €3800 going out monthly on loans, add to that, esb on two places bi-monthly, VHI of almost €450 for them each month (I have NO insurance, apart from something that’s included in the FBD farm insurance) and a mortgage of almost €1000 (herself works in Tesco and only brings home approx. €330 a week but pays child minder and food and has her own loans too), last month’s milk was €8151, so yes it looks like I have a couple of grand left after them few things are paid, however when you see that the Oil company, the merchants for Fert & Dairy nuts to name but a few then you realize that come the end of the month I would be lucky to have €100 left in the account, at this moment in time I have €45 available since the 19th of last month, and that has to do me till the 17th, so this si what I am getting at, this is a regular occurrence each month, the merchants would be owed nearly €10000 between them, 33 acres of Pit silage cutting is still owed from a few weeks ago, and these are the good months, Granted €1600 of the monthly outgoing is for 6 months in the summer, the bank did it that way rather than €800 a month for 12.

I just don’t know what to do anymore, most days you would rather be dead than face that place, I don’t mind the cows at all, milking them is fine, sure 55 cows in a 6 unit can be boring at times but it’s manageable, if only some infrastructure could have been applied over the years, lack of roadways is crucifying me and with no money I can’t see that changing anytime soon. We have a lot of road frontage so getting help bringing them on the road is a real pain too, I tried bringing them along the back this year, cut open a way through the river and it works fine but if it rains you best get back on the road since the roadway down the field is just the field, not stone etc.)

In a few years I will be in my mid 40’s and I can’t see myself going to the bank then looking for large sums to maybe do roads or sheds or even a milking parlour as I’d be in my 50’s before it’s done an paid off and even then I only have a 3year old girl at the moment, I wouldn’t like to leave her the same mess as I inherited when she grows up and if she has any sense at all she will stay away from this mindfield, ‘cause come that stage in life, where is the money going to be coming from, I won’t have made it I feel.

Maybe the best option is to set the entire place and go back driving? There are a lot of dairymen (3 joining me alone) in the area and tillage is big too, I really don’t know, maybe some of you good people may have seen or come across similar situations? It’s heart-breaking because we all know people who have had no interest in farms and their folks may have busted their asses off and given them a marvellous established place only to see it fall asunder and then there are others who just didn’t bother at all with what they had and just plodded along and passed it on to the next fool (like me).

Sorry about the long winded mail, if anyone stayed to the end, thank you.

yellow50HX

Sometimes life seems like sh1te but there is always a light at the end of the tunnel.

I know there isn't much you can do about the past so try to look at the present as otherwise it'll just use up your energy and I'm the type of person that feels there is no point worrying about stuff you cant change or control.

Is there a way you could get a bit extra for your self. I know milking in a 6 unit can be very time consuming but if there was a dairy fella nearby that needed an extra milking could you spare 2-3 hours in the day to do that. That extra few hundred a week could make a real difference. Working pastime is always a good way to make more money but it really needs to be during time you can actually spare.

Anyway head up and look for a way to push on yourself. Selling up and moving on may not be the solution either as any debt will still need to be paid off.

As for the road infra structure have you looked at TAMs 2. Even if you can't afford it now apply anyway as a you have a number of years to draw down the money and sounds like you can apply as a new entrant.

wiggy123

very interesting + tough reading there!
but keep at it... seems you have a great interest in the farming.. apply for every grant you can find, etc..
slowly but surely you will succeed..
keep chin up

Bullocks

Is consolidating all debt into a longer term loan an option to allow yourself some wiggle room to live .
I think you're not really failing just dealt a crap hand . Was the panic to get you home farming just to get the €250 a week and did you not know about this before you took over ?
I would be inclined to make the father pay any outstanding bills he ran up out of his €250 .
How bad would it effect you if you stopped paying the meal bill or contractors and used other mills and contractors ?

whupdedo

Why not sell it or plant it , life is too short to be paying for the laziness and bad management of your father , at least if you went back driving you'll be earning a constant wage , this isn't the time to get sentimental , you have a family to think of , put them first and have a few bob in your pocket for the future

whelan2

Bullocks wrote: »

Is consolidating all debt into a longer term loan an option to allow yourself some wiggle room to live .
I think you're not really failing just dealt a crap hand . Was the panic to get you home farming just to get the €250 a week and did you not know about this before you took over ?
I would be inclined to make the father pay any outstanding bills he ran up out of his €250 .
How bad would it effect you if you stopped paying the meal bill or contractors and used other mills and contractors ?

this i would go back to bank and see if loans could be spead over a longer period. also where did the 250 euro a week come from, was he bringing that figure home each week before you took over?

degetme

would leasing out your milking platform be an option?

Markcheese

Look you've got what you've got - so it's time to make choices- getting bitter and angry at your aul fella ain't going to help you ! ( forget him) . You've a wife and kids to look after and won't be able to do that if you're bitter and twisted .
Add up how much you've put in to pay your dad's debts ( in case it's needed)
Talk to your parents about how much you're paying to them in cash terms- and wether it's sustainable -
You probably need a realistic business plan including current and projected milk price -
If there's still a possibility to sell sites in your area look at it and reinvesting the money -

If the numbers don't stack up - get out
- wether you cut and run or you rent it out and reinvest the money in the farm and it's facilities - it's up to you .
Some people would love the idea of being left a farm of land - of course if you've no capital to develop it and make it profitable then it's no good to you.
Maybe you can think out side the box and change your system a bit - out wintering - renting out awkward fields -

jaymla627

Setting it out would probably be the way to go especially with tax incentives for a long term lease, your outgoings/loans relative to your farm size just aren't manageable with your cow numbers and money needed to upgrade facilities...
Another option if you have ground that's suitable for a site that's not really crucial to your operation maybe advertise it and see how you get on, might be surprised at what intrest you get and would mean a nice injection of cash to tide you over/make a few improvements till milk price bounces back...
Thirdly maybe chat the neighbouring dairy farmers and see would they be intrested in a partnership you could bring your cows/land/labour into the mix and they could provide the facilities etc

kevthegaff

Jes aska you really did inherit a mess in terms of baggage, u make me feel very lucky for what my parents done for me!! From what i gather you enjoy farming minus the baggage and id say your good at it too. You may have a few options
1. Partnership with one of your neighbours, they prob have the infrastructure, you have the land and enthusiasm
2. Rent land and get the feck out of there
3. Sell house and farm and relocate in ireland/abroad for farming/driving
4. Continue on the same path-dont like the sound of that
how many acres are u farming? Good quality?

Count Mondego

With all your road frontage could you sell another site? Lose 3/4 acre but could leave you debt free. You're doing everything right, just need a small leg up. Best of luck and keep us posted.

mahoney_j

Aska wrote: »

Hi All,

This could be along winded exercise but I am not looking for pity, advice more so and probably a good kick in the nads to help me realise my fate. This had been brewing for some time now and it really started to hit home in the ’holiday’ thread on here.

I’m 39 now, I came back home to farm 4 years ago, just before I turned 35. For the past 15 years I was working on farms in Cork & New Ross and Arklow for little pay (this was all when I left school and Ag college so we are talking from ’95-’00. Then I went and began driving trucks started with a cement mixer and then I progressed onto the artic’s and doing UK & Ireland for the likes of Nolan’s etc.

So I am an only child and 4 years ago there was a mad panic to get me back home, I knew I would have to go sometime but I really wasn’t sure when and I had always been informed that there wasn’t enough in the place to have me back, Of course years earlier the auld lad wouldn’t take early retirement, no sir, he was too stubborn for that. But in the latter years before I came back he actually did feck all, the mother milked the few cows and fed the calves etc while he sat on his arse and drank, if I am honest.

I had my own house a few hundred yards up the road but my savings were diminishing fast due to the last haulier I worked for, when he had no work he sat you at home with no pay and mortgage and bills to be paid so that don’t take long to eat in to your reserve.

So I take over in April ’11 and that’s when the fun began. I was informed by himself that there was nothing owed, you’ll make a great tidy living etc. and all that BS, well that was the beginning of the lies.
Stocking Loan for €10000 was overdue and was now almost €11000,
Silage from previous year was unpaid €3600
Merchant fees from previous years I assume were €14000 plus change (you know one of these accounts that was never paid off in full from year to year)
another contractor owed a couple of grand for work like cleaning sheds, slurry, silage bales….

Bank overdraft was €8000, this was maxed out to the limit also so as you can imagine there was NO money in the account, and 28 cows for milking, so that cheque was a real eye opener.

The woman in the bank did her best and gave me a spanking new bank account for the farm while also giving me an €18000 loan that I get to pay back over the following 5 years so that the stocking loan and overdraft on their old account is cleared.

Solicitor also informs me that I must pay him €250 a week till he hit pension age (occurred in Sept ’13)
So as you can imagine, trying to run two houses with utility bills and VHI for them and giving that waste of space €1000 a month out of a creamery cheque of 28 cows was a complete joy.

Here’s where the fun really starts when you look deeper, he sold 3 sites over the years 2 for €25000 each when the boom was just beginning and then a further site for €75000 when things were flying in the building, however the only shed that was put up in the last 41 years was a 3 span open hayshed, no concrete just pillars and sheeting on roof and one length down the side. Purchased a slurry tanker in 2004 but that was placed over 5 years so it wouldn’t really eat into the land sales., no fencing, lord no. he loved the reps back then as you just let the bushes and briars be your fencing on boundary ditches, no roadways put in during the 45 years he is there, to give you an idea, there is one particular field, it’s in the block but it’s the furthest away, well the cows walk through one field and into another then mosey through that field into the one I speak of, however if they would like a drink they come back to the previous field for the trough., you really couldn’t make this up, it’s a pure disgrace.

Where did the money go all those years you ask, well it went on beer and fags, that’s it, no holidays, he was too miserable to bring the mother away, didn’t buy new cars or anything like that, in fact the main silage field is 19 acres, it has not been ploughed since 1981 and silage is cut from that EVERY year, I have that lined up for this year to be done, but that plan could fall asunder damn easily. Of course as soon as some muppet like myself takes over you have to listen to crap like, ‘you need to build more sheds’ ‘you need to reseed or you will have nothing’ etc… So I put him through the bin in the kitchen one day, had the mother not bet me off of him with the brush handle I think I would have either killed him or hospitalized him that day, Every day (and this is a horrible thing to say, but it’s the way I feel), I pray that he is going out the front door feet first the following day.

Why am I thinking I am not going to succeed…. Well I have over €3800 going out monthly on loans, add to that, esb on two places bi-monthly, VHI of almost €450 for them each month (I have NO insurance, apart from something that’s included in the FBD farm insurance) and a mortgage of almost €1000 (herself works in Tesco and only brings home approx. €330 a week but pays child minder and food and has her own loans too), last month’s milk was €8151, so yes it looks like I have a couple of grand left after them few things are paid, however when you see that the Oil company, the merchants for Fert & Dairy nuts to name but a few then you realize that come the end of the month I would be lucky to have €100 left in the account, at this moment in time I have €45 available since the 19th of last month, and that has to do me till the 17th, so this si what I am getting at, this is a regular occurrence each month, the merchants would be owed nearly €10000 between them, 33 acres of Pit silage cutting is still owed from a few weeks ago, and these are the good months, Granted €1600 of the monthly outgoing is for 6 months in the summer, the bank did it that way rather than €800 a month for 12.

I just don’t know what to do anymore, most days you would rather be dead than face that place, I don’t mind the cows at all, milking them is fine, sure 55 cows in a 6 unit can be boring at times but it’s manageable, if only some infrastructure could have been applied over the years, lack of roadways is crucifying me and with no money I can’t see that changing anytime soon. We have a lot of road frontage so getting help bringing them on the road is a real pain too, I tried bringing them along the back this year, cut open a way through the river and it works fine but if it rains you best get back on the road since the roadway down the field is just the field, not stone etc.)

In a few years I will be in my mid 40’s and I can’t see myself going to the bank then looking for large sums to maybe do roads or sheds or even a milking parlour as I’d be in my 50’s before it’s done an paid off and even then I only have a 3year old girl at the moment, I wouldn’t like to leave her the same mess as I inherited when she grows up and if she has any sense at all she will stay away from this mindfield, ‘cause come that stage in life, where is the money going to be coming from, I won’t have made it I feel.

Maybe the best option is to set the entire place and go back driving? There are a lot of dairymen (3 joining me alone) in the area and tillage is big too, I really don’t know, maybe some of you good people may have seen or come across similar situations? It’s heart-breaking because we all know people who have had no interest in farms and their folks may have busted their asses off and given them a marvellous established place only to see it fall asunder and then there are others who just didn’t bother at all with what they had and just plodded along and passed it on to the next fool (like me).

Sorry about the long winded mail, if anyone stayed to the end, thank you.

Tough reading there but u deserve massive credit for getting to where u are now considering the hand u were dealt.u have options,u clearly love cows and farming .a realistic option for u i think considering there is dairy farmers beside u is a partnership .this would allow u to grow over time,gain some family time and relieve a bit of stress .consolidating all ur debt into one loan also a good idea but ultimately I think a partnership
Is ur best bet .i wouldn't go burying myself in more debt just because tams grants etc are there

Deepsouthwest

Not meaning to be nosey, but a little more background info. Do u have the place signed over to u? What size farm/milking block? Have u a single farm payment? Are u in reps/glas? Have u a green cert? Have u siblings?

_Brian

I presume it has been officially signed over at this stage ??

Stop paying anything for them, vhi esb, whatever, they have the pension now.

The land base might be enough to secure a consolidation loan plus some development capital. This would make your outgoings lower and upgrade a few priority infrastructure items.. You seem to have demonstrated to the bank you can work this stuff and make repayments

Sounds like you have land both sides of the road, maybe sell whats not in the home block, clear the debt and drop back cow numbers, you could do releif milking or occasional driving to supplement your income ??

Last option for me would be consider renting the place on a 5 year lease, would this cover the bills and leave a few €€ in your pocket, or at least have the bills cleared at the end of the lease and you could start again from a better footing..

bonaparte2

" most days you would rather be dead than face that place"


Walk away, lifes too short, lease the place long term probably the best option

Miname

Sell a site or two cut back the payments to your olds if they are both getting the pension, consolidate all your loans and get them spread out. Take a small wage out for yourself firstly every month and do whatever you personally want to do with it and then worry about all the bills after. It's tough on you but everything works out in the end. Get onto citizens advice and see what supports and help are out there for you, you'll be surprised what's out there, I genuinely hope it all works out for you.

Aska

yellow50HX wrote: »

Sometimes life seems like sh1te but there is always a light at the end of the tunnel.

I know there isn't much you can do about the past so try to look at the present as otherwise it'll just use up your energy and I'm the type of person that feels there is no point worrying about stuff you cant change or control.

Is there a way you could get a bit extra for your self. I know milking in a 6 unit can be very time consuming but if there was a dairy fella nearby that needed an extra milking could you spare 2-3 hours in the day to do that. That extra few hundred a week could make a real difference. Working pastime is always a good way to make more money but it really needs to be during time you can actually spare.

Anyway head up and look for a way to push on yourself. Selling up and moving on may not be the solution either as any debt will still need to be paid off.

As for the road infra structure have you looked at TAMs 2. Even if you can't afford it now apply anyway as a you have a number of years to draw down the money and sounds like you can apply as a new entrant.

The guys around here are all bigger in numbers and there isn't a farm that hasn't got at least two family members working on them. Had even spoke to the milk man and he was looking for drivers and said he has night runs to ballyragget but he was only offering €40 a run an considering I'd have to drive 35 minutes to get to him, I felt that was a non runner,

Bullocks wrote: »

Is consolidating all debt into a longer term loan an option to allow yourself some wiggle room to live .
I think you're not really failing just dealt a crap hand . Was the panic to get you home farming just to get the €250 a week and did you not know about this before you took over ?
I would be inclined to make the father pay any outstanding bills he ran up out of his €250 .
How bad would it effect you if you stopped paying the meal bill or contractors and used other mills and contractors ?

Pay bills? nan, he had the great sight to tell me what I needed etc. which for some reason laying claim to the haybob when I said I was going to sell it as we never used it much, so to keep the mother happy I let him have it, but no there was no interest from him in paying any of the debt he ran up, infact he has the cheek every know and again to ask 'how much do you owe *** merchant'.

Re: the panic, I think it was a tax thing, if you were over 35 when the farm was transferred you pay more, that's what I believe.


I can't see the bank moving on the loans, they are getting paid and they are over 5 years, so I am 3 years in to most of them, so the problem is if the time comes that the 5 years is up and most is paid then I am at a starting point again with no money and 5 years older, at this moment in time I can't see myself wanting to ask for more large sums even if this time it is for myself as I will be heading for nearly 50 by the time them 5 years are up

whelan2 wrote: »

this i would go back to bank and see if loans could be spead over a longer period. also where did the 250 euro a week come from, was he bringing that figure home each week before you took over?

the 250 was a figure the solicitor pulled out of the sky saying this is what he needed to survive (at the local), so the figure really had no basis to it, not that is finished as it was to supplement him till he hit the pension which he has, but at my worst period of when I was starting for the first few years that was in play


and regarding what he got for himself, a sweet trick he played was he would go down to the merchant when the milk money came and write a cheque for say 2500, however only 1500 of that would go off the bill, the other 100 or maybe 800 etc. would be handed back to him by the merchant

jaymla627 wrote: »

Setting it out would probably be the way to go especially with tax incentives for a long term lease, your outgoings/loans relative to your farm size just aren't manageable with your cow numbers and money needed to upgrade facilities...
Another option if you have ground that's suitable for a site that's not really crucial to your operation maybe advertise it and see how you get on, might be surprised at what intrest you get and would mean a nice injection of cash to tide you over/make a few improvements till milk price bounces back...
Thirdly maybe chat the neighbouring dairy farmers and see would they be intrested in a partnership you could bring your cows/land/labour into the mix and they could provide the facilities etc

I never said before, there is 95 acres here

There is a couple of spots that may be suitable for a site really, I have a lot of road frontage however smack bang in the middle is a river so that could cause repercussions in planning.

Aska

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Not meaning to be nosey, but a little more background info. Do u have the place signed over to u? What size farm/milking block? Have u a single farm payment? Are u in reps/glas? Have u a green cert? Have u siblings?

Sorry I left out the important stuff,

Yes I have the Green cert

only child

Yes I have the place in my name,

SPF is between 10000-10500, not being smnart but I mean over the next 5 years it doesn't drop below 10000, so you could say approx 10200 over the 5 years, however this I was going to use with the reseeding of some land and I am sure other hands will be in that pot too come that time.

58 cows (55 milking), only 8 replacements this season as I lost 7 to the tax man in march as I was running out of time, so I had to sell 7 maiden heifers that I rared.

95 acres, couple of marl holes so they take a little off.

Pacoa

I guess whats really hitting home this year is the drop in milk price. You can't support two houses with a base price of 28cent and only 55 cows. Your parents are going to have to take some of the pain too so a pay cut for them is in order. They can't expect you to perform miracles.

Genghis Cant

It's rare that I come across as honest an account as you've given OP. I have no advice to give you in relation to dairying but I wish you the best of luck.

Wildsurfer

Not meaning to be too harsh but you really have to live your life and not dwell on what you think your father should have done for you. You got handed 95 acres of good land I presume if in Wexford and you inherited 36k debt with it. A lot young farmers will be going dairying in the coming years with no land to their name. Also you say you have repayments of 3,800 monthly, but that would service a loan of a couple of hundred thousand, what are those repayments for? And 55 cows only giving a return of 8k in June milk cheque needs to be examined, this figure should be much higher. On a positive note you have doubled cow numbers in four years so can you expand more?

lazybones32

As much as were supposed to hate and abhor physical violence, there is a certain joy in giving a box to a 'deserving' fella...be they family or not.

http://www.teagasc.ie/areaunits/advisoryservices/
http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/publications/entitlements/downloads/support_for_farmers11.pdf

If anyone else could add a link to an organisation or group that can offer possible solutions, please do so.

jaymla627

Wildsurfer wrote: »

Not meaning to be too harsh but you really have to live your life and not dwell on what you think your father should have done for you. You got handed 95 acres of good land I presume if in Wexford and you inherited 36k debt with it. A lot young farmers will be going dairying in the coming years with no land to their name. Also you say you have repayments of 3,800 monthly, but that would service a loan of a couple of hundred thousand, what are those repayments for? And 55 cows only giving a return of 8k in June milk cheque needs to be examined, this figure should be much higher. On a positive note you have doubled cow numbers in four years so can you expand more?

Wouldnt be so sure about your milk cheque been much higher statement , at current prices that's in our around 30,000 litres sent in at a base price of 27.5 cent our around 20 litres a cow a day wouldn't be unbelievable figures but would be an alright average all things considered....
Throwing on more cows given the current set - up and milk price outlook mighten be a great option either, I reckon 2015 the remainder of it anyways is going to be a write off probably see intervention prices before long, and 2016 isn't looking to rosy either going to be a few lean years for everyone In the milk game by the looks of things

audi12

jaymla627 wrote: »

Wouldnt be so sure about your milk cheque been much higher statement , at current prices that's in our around 30,000 litres sent in at a base price of 27.5 cent our around 20 litres a cow a day wouldn't be unbelievable figures but would be an alright average all things considered....
Throwing on more cows given the current set - up and milk price outlook mighten be a great option either, I reckon 2015 the remainder of it anyways is going to be a write off probably see intervention prices before long, and 2016 isn't looking to rosy either going to be a few lean years for everyone In the milk game by the looks of things

thought dairy farmers made big money

Aska

Wildsurfer wrote: »

Not meaning to be too harsh but you really have to live your life and not dwell on what you think your father should have done for you. You got handed 95 acres of good land I presume if in Wexford and you inherited 36k debt with it. A lot young farmers will be going dairying in the coming years with no land to their name. Also you say you have repayments of 3,800 monthly, but that would service a loan of a couple of hundred thousand, what are those repayments for? And 55 cows only giving a return of 8k in June milk cheque needs to be examined, this figure should be much higher. On a positive note you have doubled cow numbers in four years so can you expand more?

I never meant to imply that I have it the toughest or anything like that, I'm just trying to find a road to go down, see I am thinking by myself, but it's good to talk to people about things be it anything at all, it gives one a perspective. There are men and women farming out there who may have a fine set up but they may also have to find €€€€ to give to siblings and the likes, and there also may be good farms out there that may have 2 or 3 siblings all wanting a piece and that's a dilemma too, So please don't think I am trying to play the whole 'I have it worse than anyone else card' I'm just at a loss to know what to do anymore.

That are people out there that might love the set up I have, although almost 40 years with just a hayshed put up wouldn't instil the greatest of confidence in the set up (however I will say that I added an extra span to that shed and put another 4 span similar shed joined to it 2 years ago, so I would have room for my straw when the cow numbers increased (all the sheds are straw bedded, only an outdoor slat unit where they eat).

DK man

Very well written piece there Asia bursting with details and emotions / frustrations.

I grew up in a small house in a housing estate - a good enough father and we were never hungary. My mother came from a farm and every Sunday we paid a visit. This a magical experience for me every single visit - I never got tired of exploring and following my uncle around his farm.

Years later I managed to buy 20 acres and move out into the country. I absolutely love it here. I have @60 ewes and 5 years on I now feel like I'm a farmer.

Sounds like you were handed a heavy load but it also sounds like you are making some progress so well done. I'm sure the local farmers know how hard you are working and have great respect for you. In fairness - the bills your father left you will have to be paid - but you didn't incur them so your creditors will need to be patient and allow you time and space to sort things out.

Best wishes and keep strong.....

Ps - I think that some of your difficulties are between you and your father and that you are finding it hard to separate these from the pressures of trying to make a living of the land..... Maybe worth looking into some sort of counselling to try to deal with some of 'the stuff' that may be getting in the way.....

Aska

Wildsurfer wrote: »

And 55 cows only giving a return of 8k in June milk cheque needs to be examined, this figure should be much higher.

My grass situation wouldn't be great here, I am trying to reseed a little bit by bit but anything I haven't reseeded todate with the exception of one 8 acre field hasn't been reseeded in going on 30 odd years, so some of my fields are on their last blades.

Winter feeding is another issue I had problems with, I only have pit or bale silage, no diet feeder so no mixes are possible, the cows have barley straw under them all winter so they pick some of that but this year was the worst yet for me cause the protein was a disgrace and my creamery cheque in the winter reflected that.

farmersfriend

Aska wrote: »

My grass situation wouldn't be great here, I am trying to reseed a little bit by bit but anything I haven't reseeded todate with the exception of one 8 acre field hasn't been reseeded in going on 30 odd years, so some of my fields are on their last blades.

Winter feeding is another issue I had problems with, I only have pit or bale silage, no diet feeder so no mixes are possible, the cows have barley straw under them all winter so they pick some of that but this year was the worst yet for me cause the protein was a disgrace and my creamery cheque in the winter reflected that.

Hi aska, just wondering are you milking ayr?
Maybe u could go all spring and dry off for a few weeks in the winter.
Maybe u could pick up a bit of work driving then.
I know it's sickening working to pay off someone else's debt, it's like u are buying the place.

Vandy West

Op it does not seem like your failing, you seem to have made good progress on paying down debts and expanding numbers. You have doubled the amount of cows in a fairly short time and assuming you would max out at 75 cows, you don't have too much more expansion to finance, and you can then focus on the things that will make the job easier.

Timmaay

Aska wrote: »

Winter feeding is another issue I had problems with, I only have pit or bale silage, no diet feeder so no mixes are possible, the cows have barley straw under them all winter so they pick some of that but this year was the worst yet for me cause the protein was a disgrace and my creamery cheque in the winter reflected that.

Do you calf anything in the autumn? Would OAD milking make since for the winter, would help you find time for off farm work also. But trust me it's not long since I was in a similar situation with poor grassland and a dire winter diet, both of which threw away kgs of MS. In fairness both problems didn't actually take a huge amount of spending to solve, good grassland management only costs you 30mins a week in doing a grass walk, and about 100 euros in temporary pegs reels and polywire, for the winter milk I ditched the most of the autumn calvers and pushed them around to the spring, late spring milkers cover the most of our contract milk, they are tipping over by then, with a much lower demand for feed. In terms of their diet, afew high dmd very leafy bales of silage are every bit as good as any sort of diet feeder made up tmr, which is only a quick way to going broke (or broker in your case...).

Ultimately your between a rock and a hard place definitely, but if your going to continue dairying then you got plenty of low hanging fruit like above which will hugely improve efficiency at a very little cost. Are you part of a dairy discussion group? They are fantastic to help you raise your game. Also don't be afraid to ask any questions at all up here on boards, loads of very experienced farmers here, and no question is too stupid to ask ha.

jimmy G M

OP, you are doing well and making progress, keep positive. Even coming on here to tell your story is good. I know buck all about dairying, but others have / will give you advice about that.

I know you say that you are not interested in borrowing money / repaying loans in you 50's, however this is something you need to reconsider. None of us want to do this if we could get away with it, however its a fact of life for the vast majority.

You now have a 3 year record of repaying loans to the bank, you have collateral, your wife works, you have a reasonable SFP, you have grown numbers in the past 3 years, you have a lot going for you. I think you that should look at refinancing some debts and loans into maybe a 10 - 15 yr loan to take the pressure off your cash flow for a couple of years. Leave the house mortgage as it is, but you should definitely look at the farm side. Maybe even include some extra cash for a bit of farm improvements as well. If things go well you can repay early if you want, but at least the pressure is off. Imagine going down to the co-op, contractor etc and not owing them for anything, how much better would that feel.

You say that you are making repayments of €3,800 per month at present? If correct, thats massive, - €45k pa? Imagine reducing that to even €25k pa, freeing up €20 extra for you and your family.

Look no-one ever wants to borrow money if it can be avoided and to be honest, it's all about being able to afford the repayments rather than the term of the loan. If you can afford it, it will be repaid eventually, and you'll have a life and be able to grow your business in the meantime.

There's very few of us on here, who will be debt free by 50. - maybe there's a thread in that somewhere.

Toplink

I know nothing about dairying but your an admirable fellow and your far from failing.

I wouldn't be paying VHI or booze money for my ould fella though. The party is over... You have a family to feed. What situation would he be in if you decided not to take over?

mf240

Forget the auld fella. Dont let him get to you. Plus your mother wont need the stress .


As regards resseding and roads . Could you manage without for a few years maybe fencing a strip along the edge of the fields to get to the next one. It wont be pretty but it will allow the rest of the grass in that field get up while there grazing the next one.

Take a soil test. You may get a response from lime and p and k for a fraction of the cost of reseeding.

keep going

first question is how does your wife feel about this and what does she think you should do.next up find some way of getting your father out of your head.and on to the farm,i think and I mean this in positive way you lack direction and focus in your business because you cant see beyond your financial problems.it sounds to me like you could use some advice and a sounding board to figure what to do.if you have been following f and f here maybe you could pick a couple of posters that you think you could get on with here to pm and go into more detail with them,the danger on here is you will get 10 different opinions and you will end up as confused as before.if you can get your head right you will be surprised how things will come around,been there

blue5000

OP it sounds like you are stuck in a rut. Write down all your achievements to date. Try forget about the past, avoid your father as much as possible, sounds like he is a drain on your energy.
Ballpark according to my teagasc advisor is it costs around 30-33k to live with a family your size, that's not including handouts to the parents. How far off that are you? If you are in winter milk is it paying you? Farm assist might be an option for a couple of years to help pay living expenses, but I'm not sure if you'll qualify.

You are caught between a rock and a hard place, bedding cows on straw is labour intensive, both bedding them and mucking out, but you can't afford to build right now either.

Try talk things over with your wife, where do you want to be in 5 years?

Sorry I have no magic solutions.

Aska

farmersfriend wrote: »

Hi aska, just wondering are you milking ayr?
Maybe u could go all spring and dry off for a few weeks in the winter.
Maybe u could pick up a bit of work driving then.

I am milking all year yes, the way it is, I couldn't do without the few quid over say winter months, it may be small but it's something, plus there are 12 month loan repayment/bills, only 1 loan of 1600 a month is for 6 straight months (mar-sept) so while that is gone for the other 6 months it's during the winter period where milk money is lower and there are always other things that creep up and need to be paid that you don't exactly plan for as you know.

Timmaay wrote: »

Do you calf anything in the autumn? Would OAD milking make since for the winter, would help you find time for off farm work also. But trust me it's not long since I was in a similar situation with poor grassland and a dire winter diet, both of which threw away kgs of MS. In fairness both problems didn't actually take a huge amount of spending to solve, good grassland management only costs you 30mins a week in doing a grass walk, and about 100 euros in temporary pegs reels and polywire, for the winter milk I ditched the most of the autumn calvers and pushed them around to the spring, late spring milkers cover the most of our contract milk, they are tipping over by then, with a much lower demand for feed. In terms of their diet, afew high dmd very leafy bales of silage are every bit as good as any sort of diet feeder made up tmr, which is only a quick way to going broke (or broker in your case...).

Ultimately your between a rock and a hard place definitely, but if your going to continue dairying then you got plenty of low hanging fruit like above which will hugely improve efficiency at a very little cost. Are you part of a dairy discussion group? They are fantastic to help you raise your game. Also don't be afraid to ask any questions at all up here on boards, loads of very experienced farmers here, and no question is too stupid to ask ha.

I was calving earlier last couple of years but I found them early calver's were well back in milk come time to go out, so I left it a little later for this year before the bull assaulted them.

I am not part of a group, I will be straight and say I was too embarrassed when I took over due to the state of the place and now is not much better but headed in the correct direction, but I doubt I could handle 20 guys looking at it all, from the road people probably say 'there's a fine farm of land' but no one knows what it's like behind those gates.

mf240 wrote: »

As regards resseding and roads . Could you manage without for a few years maybe fencing a strip along the edge of the fields to get to the next one. It wont be pretty but it will allow the rest of the grass in that field get up while there grazing the next one.

That was the way it was done in 2 fields but back then he never bothered to get someone with a power-harrow in to level it every once in a while so he re-fenced outside of that and the original one got grown over with briars and the likes, I got them cleaned up a couple of months back, no stone yet, but at least the ditch is back where it should be.

keep going wrote: »

first question is how does your wife feel about this and what does she think you should do.

She feels bad at times, thinks she should be able to bring in more wages to the house and ease the pain but I don't mind that, she can't do anymore hours than they give her. Holidays would hit her cause we don't go anywhere as a family. She for the past 4 years has gone on holidays with her parents when they go abroad in may, for the past 2 years she has brought the daughter with her too.

keep going wrote: »

i think and I mean this in positive way you lack direction and focus in your business because you cant see beyond your financial problems.it sounds to me like you could use some advice and a sounding board to figure what to do.if you have been following f and f here maybe you could pick a couple of posters that you think you could get on with here to pm and go into more detail with them,the danger on here is you will get 10 different opinions and you will end up as confused as before.if you can get your head right you will be surprised how things will come around,been there

As they say, I'm a long time reader first time contributor here, spent many a year looking at the board and reading all the stuff from the different members, all seem to have a good base of knowledge, I have seen over time that if you even have what may seem like the silly question that there is always someone here to answer that question, and no one comes down hard on anyone for asking a trivial question, because if you don't ask, you will never know.

Timmaay

Aska wrote: »

I am milking all year yes, the way it is, I couldn't do without the few quid over say winter months, it may be small but it's something, plus there are 12 month loan repayment/bills, only 1 loan of 1600 a month is for 6 straight months (mar-sept) so while that is gone for the other 6 months it's during the winter period where milk money is lower and there are always other things that creep up and need to be paid that you don't exactly plan for as you know.

That's only a bit of disciple 2bh, banking a small bit of each of the summer milk cheques to tide you over the winter. I can guarantee you that if you calf them cows in February/March, get them out to grass early and improve grassland management then your milk cheques will be substantially higher during the summer months, wayyy more so than if you had freshly calved cows been fed a diet of mostly average quality silage all winter. It's honestly a win win, and only takes a small bit of pain in implementing the discipline to hold over some of each of the summer months milk cheques.

I am not part of a group, I will be straight and say I was too embarrassed when I took over due to the state of the place and now is not much better but headed in the correct direction, but I doubt I could handle 20 guys looking at it all, from the road people probably say 'there's a fine farm of land' but no one knows what it's like behind those gates.

Felt the very same the 1st time the DG came in my gate. I explained where I'd come from and what I was aiming for, everyone was very open and some very useful and helpful suggestions came out of the meeting. I remember I was embarrassed about the acre or so of pure rushes bang in the middle of the farm in full view of everyone, one chap totally laughed that off and said go look at his place. No farm is perfect and we all have to start somewhere. What I've gained out of the DG has far outweighed any minor potential embarrassments ha.

fanadman1

Im not that knowalageable or experenced but in quite a similer posistion albeit not as bad and in differnt systems. I recently took over my uncles farm it was sheep and sucklers. The farm consisted of 2 blocks one of 57 acres with only the boundary fences and 27 actes of hill which again is one big field. As in your case the farm was neglected and is overgrown with bushes and briars. Where i am better of is the fact that there are quite little dept on the farm and i am only 21. This has been a disadvantage as being so young the banks have been laughing at me every time i wanted money. I know this post is no help to you but if its any advantage it has given me great hope to know sombody else is fighting the uphill battle and winning.

the_syco

Aska wrote: »

I’m 39 now

I hope you have started putting money aside for a pension! If not, consider starting one.

=-=

Is there only the one house on the land? Would it be possible to get a loan and build a "granny flat" near the road (ie; far enough away that he can't bug you) that you can put them into, move into the main house, and get rid of your current house repayments? Would it shave off any debt?

eric prydz

Hi Aska
If I was you I would be selling out the dairy cows and using them to clear your debts and provide yourself with a proper income and lifestyle.
Theres nothing stopping you from getting back into milk in a couple of years.

whelan2

stop the 250 a week, thats 12k a year:eek::eek: think what you could do with that, as you previously said that was only supposed to be until 2013

il gatto

Could you find work locally? You could quit the dairying for the time being and go into sucklers. Less work and with 95 acres you could have a good amount of stock to sell off each year. A steady wage combined with regular top ups from selling animals could steady the ship a bit and give you a focus away from the farm 24/7.
Dairying is a tough station. Everyone I know who milks grew up at it as anyone who didn't looks at it and thinks "no way" (aside from the costs of getting into it).
Have you considered fruit and veg? Sell at farmers markets and maybe a farm shop down the line.
I don't farm. Just a few acres with horses. We had one until I was in my teens and my father sold it as it was making nothing (early nineties) and was mostly wet, mountainous ground. Got feck all for it. Someone sold a site for 3 houses on it during the boom and got more than we got for 120 acres So obviously my advice is not worth much.
Sounds like you're working your backside off and making progress, even if it seems slow. You got some good (a decent sized farm) and some bad (historic debt and an unhelpful father), but you're managing better than most could I'd say. Keep the chin up and some day you'll wake up and this period will seem like a lifetime ago.

visatorro

keep hold of your partner anyway, she obviously wants to support you or she'd be gone. milk the cows early one sunday and go off in the car somewhere, a walk on the beach and a bag of chips isn't goin to break you, but its important.
tell the old lad to feck off. and violence isn't always the answer but if you had to give him a clatter again, what harm. Im not critising your mother but is she living in a different world that she cant see what is goin on and what he is doin to her only son.
the farm will come right. you have said what needs to be done, I wouldn't give up, your doing a cracking job for someone under so much pressure, well done. and when you start getting things ticking over better on the farm you'll have a sense of pride in what your achieveing. keep trucking and keep asking questions here and posting your progress. good luck

il gatto

Avoid the auld fella rather than smacking him. I'm sure it's tempting but one punch can kill. You don't need that and your wife, kid and mother certainly don't. You do even a short stretch and the farm will be gone and possibly your home. I have a short fuse at times and have got into scuffles with family in the past and you feel like sh1t afterwards even if it was their fault. Just ignore the old coot and maybe explain bluntly the clusterf@ck he's saddled you with.

Nekarsulm

Have to agree about cutting out the 250 a week payment. If your dads getting the non contributsry pension, then that's over 400 a week coming to them in total. Most farming couples who are now in their 70's and retired never had that sort of cash weekly in their lives till now.

Sam Kade

the_syco wrote: »

I hope you have started putting money aside for a pension! If not, consider starting one.

=-=

Is there only the one house on the land? Would it be possible to get a loan and build a "granny flat" near the road (ie; far enough away that he can't bug you) that you can put them into, move into the main house, and get rid of your current house repayments? Would it shave off any debt?

Really, he's drowning in debt and you're advising him to pay into a pension. It reminds me of my accountant advising me how to deal with a tax bill I couldn't afford to pay he said start a pension plan pay in 3 times the amount of the tax bill I couldn't afford in the first place.

Farmer Pudsey

I am not sure where to start.

First I presume that the 250/week to the father, VHI and other bills you pick up are legally written into the take over agreement. I also take it your father has not reached pension age and will not for a few years. VHI looks like it is ver expensive for two people they may be on the old Plan B go to a Health Insurance broker with your mother and get the policy looked and get a similar policy that will be maybe 60% of the cost. Price Aviva for farm insurance next year.

The way you structure loans over 5 years was maybe a wrong decision however we are where we are. Ignore the agro with you father if going to see your mother call when he is gone to the Pub.

First most of us are facing working to nearly 70. The reality is that while 20 years ago it was not advisable to borrow at 40 now it is different you still have thirty years of a working life ahead of you. If you do not want to restructure over a longer period consider going to the bank and looking for a payment holiday of 12 months on one of the loans. banks are flexible and will understand that with present milk prices you have a cash flow problem.

THe reason you have a tax issue is you have substancial drawings that require you to show income that in reality you cannot afford.This is why you need to restructure you drawings pay the bill that are tax efficient such as silage and contractor bills as well as lowering merchant bills. No point in having to sell 7 maiden heifers again next year. Is your daughter 14+ if so put her on the books as an employee I sure she helps out if she is this age. You will have access to an 8K tax free allowance. You will need to pay her through a bank account but she can withdraw the money and if she gives it to you or your wife for day to day expenses then it helps with day to day bills.

holestin cowboy24

aska your doing a good job and your succeeding in your business slowly. you have a good land block. stay milking.. forget the winter milkers tightening calving by 2 weeks every year and sell culls in autumn and use the cull money to live over the winter with calve money in spring til first milk cheque comes along.. join a discussion group asap, there not there to or wont critise you but offer you support and encouragement and help you.. yes bills to be paid same here bills still not cleared from the debt I was given but every month I give everyone a piece of the pie. slowly but surely we get there.

hold on to your wife she sounds a gem and very supportive. cut the auld lads money and use it instead for your own household and spend 2k a year for a holiday or short weekend away over the year.. god knows you deserve a break..

is there any gravel on farm that could be dug out to help for roadways? calve in spring and get grass to cows asap and cheques will rise

hold your head up high and be proud of what you have done.. best of luck in farming career and be no stranger to boards ask questions and we all will offer advice and help you out as much as we can

whelan2

whupdedo wrote: »

Why not sell it or plant it , life is too short to be paying for the laziness and bad management of your father , at least if you went back driving you'll be earning a constant wage , this isn't the time to get sentimental , you have a family to think of , put them first and have a few bob in your pocket for the future

dont think it can be sold within 5 years of transfer without major tax implications

the_syco

Sam Kade wrote: »

Really, he's drowning in debt and you're advising him to pay into a pension.

Of the €250 he's paying the father, he should put €150 into the pension. The father is getting a pension, so feck him.

As per what Farmer Pudsey says about getting cheaper insurance for the folks (they may be insured for things that they'll never need), check if you can get the health/farm/tractor/car/etc insurance all with the one company? Perhaps a broker can help set this up, as it can work out cheaper.

Farmer Pudsey

the_syco wrote: »

Of the €250 he's paying the father, he should put €150 into the pension. The father is getting a pension, so feck him.

As per what Farmer Pudsey says about getting cheaper insurance for the folks (they may be insured for things that they'll never need), check if you can get the health/farm/tractor/car/etc insurance all with the one company? Perhaps a broker can help set this up, as it can work out cheaper.

I would not advise him to pay into apension untill he has all other finiancial issue sorted. It looks as if his father is not recieving the OAP at present. Pensions are not as biig an issue and return on pension funds is abysmal.