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Ideal suckler cow

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    #152
    Patzy3I
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Patzy3I


    tanko wrote: »
    In my local mart CH cattle of all ages from suck calves to finished cattle achieve better prices on average than all other breeds.
    ICBF figures favour progeny off easy calving Bulls, this is why CH Bulls don't do well on their figures.

    I personally was all for ch cattle Until lately . What I'm trying to say is for me calving difficulty is massively important I'm calving a lot of cows I don't want to have the jack out every time. Say I loose 3 extra ch Calves out of 130 cows to heavy calving and I sold my cattle at a year old for 1000 a piece. That puts me back 3000 euro straight away on an easy calving bull. Then take gestation periods a lot of ch Bulls aren't good here so I end up with a high culling rate on late cows. Then take milk they're mostly not a milky breed. No mater how much grass I get into the cow she is putting as much on her back as she is into milk And a big fat cow with no milk is a very hard thing to stick. I'm all for good condition that's just treating the animal right but when they get over fat it's hard to get them in calf


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    #153
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭tanko


    Patzy3I wrote: »
    I personally was all for ch cattle Until lately . What I'm trying to say is for me calving difficulty is massively important I'm calving a lot of cows I don't want to have the jack out every time. Say I loose 3 extra ch Calves out of 130 cows to heavy calving and I sold my cattle at a year old for 1000 a piece. That puts me back 3000 euro straight away on an easy calving bull. Then take gestation periods a lot of ch Bulls aren't good here so I end up with a high culling rate on late cows. Then take milk they're mostly not a milky breed. No mater how much grass I get into the cow she is putting as much on her back as she is into milk.

    Well put, I agree with you. I was just making the point that harder calving Bulls don't get many stars from ICBF. As my neighbour said when he switched from a limousin bull to a charolais, "I have better cattle but ive less of them".
    To answer the OP the ideal suckler cow is a cow that can produce a charolaisX cross calf with golden coloured hair that weighs about 330kgs at weaning. This doesn't need to be a calf with extreme muscle but the farmers in my local mart go mad for them every October anyway. They often make €900 plus if good quality.


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    #154
    Patzy3I
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Patzy3I


    tanko wrote: »
    Well put, I agree with you. I was just making the point that harder calving Bulls don't get many stars from ICBF. As my neighbour said when he switched from a limousin bull to a charolais, "I have better cattle but ive less of them".
    To answer the OP the ideal suckler cow is a cow that can produce a charolaisX cross calf with golden coloured hair that weighs about 330kgs at weaning. This doesn't need to be a calf with extreme muscle but the farmers in my local mart go mad for them every October anyway. They often make €900 plus if good quality.

    I Definitely agree with you in terms of that golden whitish coat. I try to use a percentage of ch Bulls on my black cows because for some reason buyers don't want the black cattle as much. That's one thing I don't like about limos is they aren't great to bring there own colour on black cows


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    #155
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    Patzy3I wrote: »
    I Definitely agree with you in terms of that golden whitish coat. I try to use a percentage of ch Bulls on my black cows because for some reason buyers don't want the black cattle as much. That's one thing I don't like about limos is they aren't great to bring there own colour on black cows

    I've never got a red calf off our black cows from a limo bull , even their daughters seem to throw mostly black calves


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    #156
    Patzy3I
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Patzy3I


    Bullocks wrote: »
    I've never got a red calf off our black cows from a limo bull , even their daughters seem to throw mostly black calves
    I get the odd one but it's a rare occasion. I just try to bring the black cattle to slaughter it doesn't bother the factory weather they're black white or pink


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    #157
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    Patzy3I wrote: »
    I get the odd one but it's a rare occasion

    It's a sickener when the same type red makes a few quid more in the mart and I'm sure they finish out the same even though some lads make the black lads take a bit more time to finish. Think is there any truth in that ?


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    #158
    Patzy3I
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Patzy3I


    Bullocks wrote: »
    It's a sickener when the same type red makes a few quid more in the mart and I'm sure they finish out the same even though some lads make the black lads take a bit more time to finish. Think is there any truth in that ?

    No I don't think so I had a ch cow this year which had twins to a limo bull. One black one white I lost the white lad at birth. But I find it hard to see how the black lad will be harder finish. Anyway if they're black to Angus breeding somewhere they will only finish quicker


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    #159
    Canaryblue
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭Canaryblue


    I'd like to get ye're opinions on a bull of mine just to judge ye're reactions to ICBF data and stars. I'll have to list out the data as I can't link to a picture.

    Value Stars Within Stars Accross
    Replacement 190 5 5
    Terminal 157 5 5
    Calving Difficulty 4.3%
    Docility 0.12 4.5 4.5
    Carcass weight 38.5 4.5 5
    C. Conformation 1.87 2 3

    He hasn't been scored yet, but I imagine the conformation score will go up when he does.

    Anyways what are ye're thoughts, without having seen the bull how much faith would you have in the icbf data?


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    #160
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    tanko wrote: »
    Well put, I agree with you. I was just making the point that harder calving Bulls don't get many stars from ICBF. As my neighbour said when he switched from a limousin bull to a charolais, "I have better cattle but ive less of them".
    To answer the OP the ideal suckler cow is a cow that can produce a charolaisX cross calf with golden coloured hair that weighs about 330kgs at weaning. This doesn't need to be a calf with extreme muscle but the farmers in my local mart go mad for them every October anyway. They often make €900 plus if good quality.

    Charolais bull on a shorthorn cow then.


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    #161
    Kovu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,241 ✭✭✭✭Kovu


    Patzy3I wrote: »
    No I don't think so I had a ch cow this year which had twins to a limo bull. One black one white I lost the white lad at birth. But I find it hard to see how the black lad will be harder finish. Anyway if they're black to Angus breeding somewhere they will only finish quicker

    I've always found (and have heard from plenty of others) that the black limos tend to be wilder then the reds. Now I don't know how true this is or if it's some gene that's causing it, but it could be the reason they're harder finished. The less docile the animal is, the less efficient it is at feed conversion.
    From an American study

    “If we look at a post-weaning period – 55 days in one of the studies we did – the animals that were more desirable in terms of docility gained 0.8 lb./day more than the less docile animals.”

    and another table. I believe ICBF did something on this too but couldn't find it so had to use American studies.

    e5rZa0Fl.png?1


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    #162
    bogman_bass
    Registered Users Posts: 5,057 ✭✭✭bogman_bass


    Isn't this what ICBF are trying to get rid of? Too many people making buying and breeding desisions based on colour rather than profit


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    #163
    Farrell
    Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Farrell


    Would it be, black LM would have a higher % HO breeding & Red would be higher continental vigour & therefore easier finished. Even though some Black could be similar vigour to the red, it's a gamble & some farmers would rather play safe


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    #164
    Kovu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,241 ✭✭✭✭Kovu


    bogman_bass wrote: »
    Isn't this what ICBF are trying to get rid of? Too many people making buying and breeding desisions based on colour rather than profit

    It's going to be very hard to change some peoples minds about cattle colour. We purposely aim to not breed mousey cattle as they will always always sell for less, regardless of quality. As we're not set up to finish ourselves, it's just the most sensible way for us to breed.

    If I was buying, I wouldn't be buying a black. Cause I'm a terrible cattle racist. Mousey wouldn't bother me if she could produce the goods.:pac:


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    #165
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭tanko


    coolshannagh28 wrote: »
    Charolais bull on a shorthorn cow then.

    Why not, sounds like a good cross. Shorthorn cows are non existent in my area tho.
    A neighbour of mine puts a CH bull on Saler and red Lim cows to get yellow calves. It works well for him anyway, plenty of demand for his Bull and heifer weanlings, they are good quality.


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    #166
    Kovu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,241 ✭✭✭✭Kovu


    tanko wrote: »
    Why not, sounds like a good cross. Shorthorn cows are non existent in my area tho.
    A neighbour of mine puts a CH bull on Saler and red Lim cows to get yellow calves. It works well for him anyway, plenty of demand for his Bull and heifer weanlings, they are good quality.

    One of the cows I bought is a Lim off a PB shorthorn cow- only found that out when I looked her up on ICBF. Shorthorns would indeed calve a bus! She was the one I had that carried almost 300 days and had this fella by herself.
    Shorthorn are hard to come by alright, how do you reckon they'd cross with a blonde?


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    #167
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭tanko


    Kovu wrote: »
    One of the cows I bought is a Lim off a PB shorthorn cow- only found that out when I looked her up on ICBF. Shorthorns would indeed calve a bus! She was the one I had that carried almost 300 days and had this fella by herself.
    Shorthorn are hard to come by alright, how do you reckon they'd cross with a blonde?

    I wouldn't be a fan of Blondes, they're rough looking cattle imo and aren't easy fattened from what I've heard. I'd prefer a Lim or CH.


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    #168
    Kovu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,241 ✭✭✭✭Kovu


    tanko wrote: »
    I wouldn't be a fan of Blondes, they're rough looking cattle imo and aren't easy fattened from what I've heard. I'd prefer a Lim or CH.

    I've an affinity for them, dad not so much. They're rather bald though!


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    #169
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭tanko


    Canaryblue wrote: »
    I'd like to get ye're opinions on a bull of mine just to judge ye're reactions to ICBF data and stars. I'll have to list out the data as I can't link to a picture.

    Value Stars Within Stars Accross
    Replacement 190 5 5
    Terminal 157 5 5
    Calving Difficulty 4.3%
    Docility 0.12 4.5 4.5
    Carcass weight 38.5 4.5 5
    C. Conformation 1.87 2 3

    He hasn't been scored yet, but I imagine the conformation score will go up when he does.

    Anyways what are ye're thoughts, without having seen the bull how much faith would you have in the icbf data?

    Excellent figures but what is their % reliability? What breed is the bull.
    The icbf data is a useful guide but it can change a lot over time. I'd be looking at the Bulls ancestry and the figures for his sire and his mother's sire also.


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    #170
    Limestone Cowboy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭Limestone Cowboy


    Kovu wrote: »
    I've an affinity for them, dad not so much. They're rather bald though!

    There's a lot of them appearing around here lately, still prefer the Lims and Charolais though.


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    #171
    Miname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭Miname


    A good blonde is a good one but they can be a bit hit and miss. The shorthorn charlaois cross throws a nice looking weanling but they can look very hungry as they get on a bit in age.a limo cross shorthorn then bred to a charlaois is what I'm experimenting with here this year. I ai'd five muscly limo heifers to two shorthorn Bulls and four have scanned in calf and the other repeated and she isn't scanned yet but I've all fingers and toes crossed they have heifers. I'm still a firm believer in a limo cross sim with nearly any bull though.


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    #172
    Limestone Cowboy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭Limestone Cowboy


    Miname wrote: »
    A good blonde is a good one but they can be a bit hit and miss. The shorthorn charlaois cross throws a nice looking weanling but they can look very hungry as they get on a bit in age.a limo cross shorthorn then bred to a charlaois is what I'm experimenting with here this year. I ai'd five muscly limo heifers to two shorthorn Bulls and four have scanned in calf and the other repeated and she isn't scanned yet but I've all fingers and toes crossed they have heifers. I'm still a firm believer in a limo cross sim with nearly any bull though.

    Have a few lim x sim cows here. A bit plainish to look at but the best breeding cows in the place. Breeding really shapely calves back to my lim bull again and have the milk to drive them on aswell.


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    #173
    k mac
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭k mac


    Thinking of getting into sucklers. Thinking of angus cow to easy calving angus bull. Main reason being easy calving. I know they won't be fancy weanlings but if they left a few euro would be happy. Finishing cattle at the minute and that job is burning money at least at the scale I am doing it.


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    #174
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭tanko


    k mac wrote: »
    Thinking of getting into sucklers. Thinking of angus cow to easy calving angus bull. Main reason being easy calving. I know they won't be fancy weanlings but if they left a few euro would be happy. Finishing cattle at the minute and that job is burning money at least at the scale I am doing it.

    Those calves would be a disaster for selling at the weanling stage, you'd need to be finishing them and even then what kind of money would they make?
    If using Angus you need to cross them with a continental breed and finish them yourself.


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    #175
    wiggy123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭wiggy123


    angus do grand.. might not make a packet on them, as weanling! but will make a profit--as your inputs will be much less than other breeds...
    also demand is progressing nice for the angus breed..so is a gd market out there for angus weanlings at present


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    #176
    Miname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭Miname


    I'd have to agree with tanko. If your after something for weanlings start with a coloured Cow and a limo bull. Easy calving and lively at birth and at least if you want to sell on you've got something worth selling.


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    #177
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    With angus you have to be finishing them yourself. But if you are near some of the factories doing the bonus schemes, then there is a good market for heavy forward stores in marts near those factories. Can't fault them as cows though, hardy, easy kept, good mothers etc.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #178
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,705 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Someone mentioned it her before about simmentals, but the few Simm x Limousins cows I have, all seem to be very poor on the feet. They aint exactly the quietest either plus the white head can carry through a lot which doesn't help when selling weanling bulls.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



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    #179
    dh1985
    Registered Users Posts: 586 ✭✭✭dh1985


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    Someone mentioned it her before about simmentals, but the few Simm x Limousins cows I have, all seem to be very poor on the feet. They aint exactly the quietest either plus the white head can carry through a lot which doesn't help when selling weanling bulls.

    Never seen a difference in price between white headed weanlings and single coloured ones. I find simmentals very quiet and easy to work with. Also find they cross fierce well with a charolais bull. Calves seem to bring serious power and width, more so than limos. I would prefer them to limos but thats just my opinion


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    #180
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭tanko


    dh1985 wrote: »
    Never seen a difference in price between white headed weanlings and single coloured ones. I find simmentals very quiet and easy to work with. Also find they cross fierce well with a charolais bull. Calves seem to bring serious power and width, more so than limos. I would prefer them to limos but thats just my opinion

    What % simmental are your cows? I got some Lisnacrann Sunnyboy straws to put on Limousin cows to try and improve the milk situation.


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    #181
    dh1985
    Registered Users Posts: 586 ✭✭✭dh1985


    tanko wrote: »
    What % simmental are your cows? I got some Lisnacrann Sunnyboy straws to put on Limousin cows to try and improve the milk situation.

    They would be 50%. Don't know anything about that bull but his figures look impressive


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