Ideal suckler cow

pakalasa

Muckit wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with you Tora. I've been banging on about this before. There's no easy answer. Lads will ate the head off me, but it's 'pot luck' alot of the time. This crack fo the ICBF ratings is very 'pie in the sky'. Yes it would be excellent if it worked in practice and you could say yes once I pick this bull and put him on this cow I am guaranteed a top class animal. But we're not!!

All the PB and show cattle commercial guys are only bringing out the best of the best of their herd........ that's easy!! Let me onto their farm and let me see all their herd, cows, bulls, calves and show me consistency down along the line. Is it acheivable?? I'm not convinced.

If it is, is it possible to replicate that 'ideal' farm right across the country based on a consistently workable breeding formula ????

Well, I agree with all you are saying. There will always be variation when breeding cattle, but the 'average' of these variations can be improved by breeding the best with the best.
As for the ICBF figures, these are all averages. In fact they dont give any idea at all, about the variation in the trait. As for 'pie in the sky' the figures are derived from a huge amount of data collected from marts, calving surveys etc.
For example if you have a bull with a weanling value of say €50 more than another bull. If you were to use both bulls across a lot of cow types, I guarantee you the value of the weanlings would be very close to €50 more. It's statistics after all, a bit like exit polls in politics, you be amazed how accurate they can be.

Tora Bora

pakalasa wrote: »

Well, I agree with all you are saying. There will always be variation when breeding cattle, but the 'average' of these variations can be improved by breeding the best with the best.
As for the ICBF figures, these are all averages. In fact they dont give any idea at all, about the variation in the trait. As for 'pie in the sky' the figures are derived from a huge amount of data collected from marts, calving surveys etc.
For example if you have a bull with a weanling value of say €50 more than another bull. If you were to use both bulls across a lot of cow types, I guarantee you the value of the weanlings would be very close to €50 more. It's statistics after all, a bit like exit polls in politics, you be amazed how accurate they can be.

A LOT, of the data being collected by ICBF, is just plain wrong and giving false directions.
These breeders just will not tell ICBF the true picture relating to calving difficulty, or docility, etc.
Many more in the non pedigreed herds, even get the dams of given calves incorrect by leaving registration too late and getting facts mixed up.
Then there is the "show" class calves, born in November, and registered as born the following February / March:cool: Fcku sake, never let the facts get in the way, of a good story

pakalasa

Tora Bora wrote: »

A LOT, of the data being collected by ICBF, is just plain wrong and giving false directions.

A lot of it is wrong, but on average it is equally wrong for all bulls, so in effect it all cancels out. It doesn't matter if even 20% of the data is rubbish. The 80% that is good is still good enough to allow bulls to be compared.

Tora Bora wrote: »

These breeders just will not tell ICBF the true picture relating to calving difficulty, or docility, etc.

ICBF don't include data from breeders for this very reason. We all know Charolais bulls are reared under Friesian cows etc etc.

Tora Bora wrote: »

Then there is the "show" class calves, born in November, and registered as born the following February / March:cool: Fcku sake, never let the facts get in the way, of a good story

The % of show calves is minimal so any error from them is not worth talking about.

Tora Bora wrote: »

... never let the facts get in the way, of a good story

What other story is there? The breeder that tells you his bull is the 'bees knees'.

johnpawl

On the topic of ideal suckler cows, I've some AA cows off a friesan herd. Have them in calf to the PT bull BZB and hope to get some replacement heifers.Should have docility and milk and muscle in the genepool, hopefully anyway...Planning to put a blue bull on them then, might even try sansonnet some time in the future see what he throws...

ltec

reilig wrote: »

Limousin x aa cows will all be black cows. If you breed weinlings off a Chaorlais bull to these cows you would end up with moucey brown calves - irish cattle buyers do not like this colour and you would therefore end up selling your weinlings at a lower price than similar weight white or yellow calves.

yes ive heard this before.
Is their any other colours or breeds that you shouldnt mix.

johnpawl

ltec wrote: »

yes ive heard this before.
Is their any other colours or breeds that you shouldnt mix.

Is this the type of brown colour thats undesirable?

reilig

johnpawl wrote: »

Is this the type of brown colour thats undesirable?

God No,

If you have all your calves that colour then you are doing well. Mousey brown is a kind of grey/brown colour. I have 1 or 2 calves that colour at home - must take a picture of them

flatout11

dont know if the colour is as important anymore - certainly if the calves are good enough
cross a bb with a white charo and you can get a mousey brown, doesnt stop them sellin but a plain calf of this colour vs a plain orange one in the mart... thats a different story

johnpawl

Mighty, charlaois on AA x cows threw this colour on all calves

Atilathehun

johnpawl wrote: »

Is this the type of brown colour thats undesirable?

Jays, your lucky the grass management gurus, didnt make comment on that nice green leafy grass your stock are grazing;)

johnpawl

Atilathehun wrote: »

Jays, your lucky the grass management gurus, didnt make comment on that nice green leafy grass your stock are grazing;)

Haha cutting edge farming! Plus the fence on the ground in the background:)

Pat the lad

have two 10 month old bb bulls after ELZ out of lim x cows. calves where born with in a week of each other. one cows is decent square cow with plenty of milk with Simmental and probably fresian blood if you go back far enough. the other cow is a good red limo with adequate milk, not near as much as the other cow. weighed the calves the other day, calf with access to less milk was 446kg and the other guy was 382kg. me thinks a little breeding goes a long way

Muckit

pakalasa wrote: »

A lot of it is wrong, but on average it is equally wrong for all bulls, so in effect it all cancels out.

So two 'wrongs' apparently do make a right, in Pakalasa's world?!? :rolleyes:

The achilles heel of the ICBF system is as Tora rightly pointed out.......... it relies heavily on farmers inputting data honestly and correctly.

The scope for errors is mind blowing.

Bizzum

Muckit wrote: »

So two 'wrongs' apparently do make a right, in Pakalasa's world?!? :rolleyes:

The achilles heel of the ICBF system is as Tora rightly pointed out.......... it relies heavily on farmers inputting data honestly and correctly.

The scope for errors is mind blowing.

I think MOST farmers try to put in correct data. But even so if a large percentage is bull****, at least a general trend if nothing else can be observed. It also allows the system handlers to perhaps hone and streamline questions where the percieved veracity of input data is less than what would be liked.
Maybe ICBF need to changing tact in order help farmers/stakeholders improve the data by asking more pertinent questions?

Bizzum

Pat the lad wrote: »

have two 10 month old bb bulls after ELZ out of lim x cows. calves where born with in a week of each other. one cows is decent square cow with plenty of milk with Simmental and probably fresian blood if you go back far enough. the other cow is a good red limo with adequate milk, not near as much as the other cow. weighed the calves the other day, calf with access to less milk was 446kg and the other guy was 382kg. me thinks a little breeding goes a long way

My Grandfather used to say 'An ounce of breeding's worth a tonne of feeding' and that's not today nor yesterday!

Muckit

Bizzum wrote: »

I think MOST farmers try to put in correct data.

Your probably right, but as I said before, even with the best will in the world, data can be inputted incorrectly.

The calving difficulty figure then is another area thats bothers me.

If the cow and the bull contribute 50/50 to the attributes of the calf, then is the calfing difficulty index not as much a measurement one particular cows ability to throw a calf as opposed to a 100% indication of the bulls influence on it's progeny size??

pakalasa

Bizzum wrote: »

I think MOST farmers try to put in correct data. But even so if a large percentage is bull****, at least a general trend if nothing else can be observed.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. When you think about it what data can farmers input that's rubbish. They can lie about the calving survey, say it was a normal calving when it was a hard pull, but how does that benefit them. Would you not want to warn other farmers about the bull, say if it was in AI. If you lie about the birth date, what do you do the following year, you have to lie again. You can't say a cow calved twice in say 8 months. So you end up with a lot of calves running around not registered. Nothing better to set alarm bells ringing in the dept computer..;). What do you do if you have an inspection?

Bizzum

Muckit wrote: »

The calving difficulty figure then is another area thats bothers me.

I know where you're coming from here.
There are cows at home that would calve any bull you put to them, with a reasonable sized calf, and there are others that will produce a bear of a calf no matter how easy on paper the bull is.

I still think though that data is important and as more comes onstream the more valuable it becomes.

Bizzum

I think Charlie Manson summed it up concisely when he said:

"No sense, makes sense."

bogman_bass

Lads I think you are forgetting a very important fact here and thats that Eurostar figures were never ment to be the be all and end all.
They are, however a useful INDICATOR of what a bull might produce.

As for calving, while it wont tell you the likelyhood of a difficult calving on a perticular cow, you can generally use it to distinguish an easy calving bull from one thats throwing monster providing that there is a resonable number of calvings in the survey

always take the reliability into account when reading the figures

red bull

At athenry calf mart today week old montbeliarde x heifer calves went up to 290 for suckler breeding, farmer said they are the best for easy calving with loads of milk ?

Kovu

If this sort of thread has been up before and discussed numerous times, would it not be in everyones interest to ask about setting up a place where we can post pictures, weight & prices, along with breeding background? That way, we'd all be happier seeing the actual produce (We do all love looking at a good animal)
Even with dam pictures next to stock if possible, because what your neighbour has off KFC etc, can be a lot different to stock in your own field. Would people actually do this? Looking at other peoples stock and seeing how they breed them, is a far better learning experience (and cheaper) than trying and failing.

flatout11

bogman_bass wrote: »

Lads I think you are forgetting a very important fact here and thats that Eurostar figures were never ment to be the be all and end all.
They are, however a useful INDICATOR of what a bull might produce.

As for calving, while it wont tell you the likelyhood of a difficult calving on a perticular cow, you can generally use it to distinguish an easy calving bull from one thats throwing monster providing that there is a resonable number of calvings in the survey

always take the reliability into account when reading the figures

that sum s it up best ... i have no doubt that some of the data is crap.... thats human nature and the system is dependent on it.... (you should check out the rants across the water on dishonest pedigree breeders re dob etc...) but it provides the only source of information for certain traits
but i always find it funny when farmers go on about using SBV values to select replacements..... the comnined index is meaningless - horses for courses

flatout11

Karen112 wrote: »

Looking at other peoples stock and seeing how they breed them, is a far better learning experience (and cheaper) than trying and failing.

.... nice idea but at the end of the day its the average (or system) that we get that counts not the 2 to 3 top calves we all have..... you would end up with a selection of export calves and show cows.. me thinks!!!!

Tora Bora

Karen112 wrote: »

If this sort of thread has been up before and discussed numerous times, would it not be in everyones interest to ask about setting up a place where we can post pictures, weight & prices, along with breeding background? That way, we'd all be happier seeing the actual produce (We do all love looking at a good animal)
Even with dam pictures next to stock if possible, because what your neighbour has off KFC etc, can be a lot different to stock in your own field. Would people actually do this? Looking at other peoples stock and seeing how they breed them, is a far better learning experience (and cheaper) than trying and failing.

With the kind of stock some lads have around here have, you would need a 96 inch plasma computer screen, to see their arses properly.:cool:
In my case you could get the whole herd on a smart phone screen:o

flatout11

Tora Bora wrote: »

With the kind of stock some lads have around here have, you would need a 96 inch plasma computer screen, to see their arses properly.:cool:
In my case you could get the whole herd on a smart phone screen:o

the 96 inch screen would only allow you to see the calf... better off just renting a cinema so we could see the cow as well !!!!!!!!!!!

leg wax

flatout11 wrote: »

.... nice idea but at the end of the day its the average (or system) that we get that counts not the 2 to 3 top calves we all have..... you would end up with a selection of export calves and show cows.. me thinks!!!!

well i think its a good idea and i think i started it in the pic thread:rolleyes:,i have no problem showing poor stock and crosses that dont work and cows that dont work etc etc ,i have no problem in putting up every cow heifer as they calf with info ,the good the bad the pure ugly, we all have them.

Kovu

flatout11 wrote: »

the 96 inch screen would only allow you to see the calf... better off just renting a cinema so we could see the cow as well !!!!!!!!!!!

Hahaha, bigger the better eh. We'd have to try the 3D version as well.

flatout11 wrote: »

.... nice idea but at the end of the day its the average (or system) that we get that counts not the 2 to 3 top calves we all have..... you would end up with a selection of export calves and show cows.. me thinks!!!!

Not everyone breeds blues and lims. I would put up all my stock if someone asked, including a dwarf that can still run under it's mum at 4 months old (oh the shame of the little bugger being in the field) It's only something to put out there to think about doing.

flatout11

Karen112 wrote: »

Hahaha, bigger the better eh. We'd have to try the 3D version as well.



Not everyone breeds blues and lims. I would put up all my stock if someone asked, including a dwarf that can still run under it's mum at 4 months old (oh the shame of the little bugger being in the field) It's only something to put out there to think about doing.

3D ... i will bring the popcorn .... its probably not a bad idea then again twenty minutes on done deal will see a lot!!!

my piont was it would be nice to hear about a a suckler system delivering the goods on a consistent basis - possible should of asked about the ideal replacement policy for a suckler herd i still think this is one area where we fall down

Kovu

flatout11 wrote: »

3D ... i will bring the popcorn .... its probably not a bad idea then again twenty minutes on done deal will see a lot!!!

my piont was it would be nice to hear about a a suckler system delivering the goods on a consistent basis - possible should of asked about the ideal replacement policy for a suckler herd i still think this is one area where we fall down

That's true. Hard to get a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Breeding your own replacements has a lot to do with it though. Hard to know what the dam was like when you're buying in a mart. For all the buyer knows, it could be just a good animal thrown from an average cow.