Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Ideal suckler cow

Options
12357

Comments

  • Options
    #122
    bogman_bass
    Registered Users Posts: 5,057 ✭✭✭bogman_bass


    Figerty wrote: »
    Well,,, if as part of this scheme, I have to pay the ICBF to access data, then they are a vested interest
    If they are setting the star ratings that affect the breeding they are vested interest,
    If members of the board are AI company directors then the have a vested interest in selling their product.

    Breed societies are on the board too. The big AI studs here are co-ops so farmers are on the board and IFA are on the board so more farmers.

    As for ICBF being a vested interest there is no advantage in turning breeding one way or the other. The figures are the figures they make no more by fiddling them.

    AI companies are at a disadvantage because they are left holding onto straws that they can't sell any more

    Me thinks you are looking for a consperisy that doesn't exsit


  • Options
    #123
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    Patzy3I wrote: »
    Is not the 30 cows that's bothering me so much as the fact that I am think very hard of changing to dairying. I wouldn't be able if I joined the scheme. No I never hold farm walks I don't like talking in front of groups like that. I'm also not even part of teargas can I have a local farm advisor

    Pretty much the same as that with regards talking to people and I only deal with a private advisor aswell .
    The home farm is in AEOS for the next few years so reseeding to go back milking is out for that duration and it's pretty small and would be maxed out at 40 milkers so I was half thinking of keeping it as is ( the lands not brilliant anyhow ) and if I was to go into milk , do it on a better suited rented block separately .
    Unfortunately there's no suitable bit of land too close to me for this at the minute


  • Options
    #124
    Patzy3I
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Patzy3I


    Bullocks wrote: »
    Pretty much the same as that with regards talking to people and I only deal with a private advisor aswell .
    The home farm is in AEOS for the next few years so reseeding to go back milking is out for that duration and it's pretty small and would be maxed out at 40 milkers so I was half thinking of keeping it as is ( the lands not brilliant anyhow ) and if I was to go into milk , do it on a better suited rented block separately .
    Unfortunately there's no suitable bit of land too close to me for this at the minute

    I have a 120 acre block around the yard 100 cubicles and road ways so it's a no brainier for me but I'm trying to hold out till the price settles


  • Options
    #125
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    bogman_bass wrote: »
    Breed societies are on the board too. The big AI studs here are co-ops so farmers are on the board and IFA are on the board so more farmers.

    As for ICBF being a vested interest there is no advantage in turning breeding one way or the other. The figures are the figures they make no more by fiddling them.

    AI companies are at a disadvantage because they are left holding onto straws that they can't sell any more

    Me thinks you are looking for a consperisy that doesn't exsit

    I have concerns. Not a conspiracy theory. Are they going to change the start rating model in four years time and raise the bar because the statistical model they have proves inaccurate? So if I commit to this scheme, will the bar be raised later? That is the concern.

    Better breeding is something I aspire to but I want to keep the balance between good calves and keep the vet away.

    At about 8% of CH bulls being 4-5 star, the likely hood is that I am going to wind up with more sections.. yes better bred calves but less profit as a result.
    This is the concern.


  • Options
    #126
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    Patzy3I wrote: »
    I have a 120 acre block around the yard 100 cubicles and road ways so it's a no brainier for me but I'm trying to hold out till the price settles

    Sneak in when prices are down and you will still be ahead compared to sucklers even with the BGS


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #127
    Patzy3I
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Patzy3I


    Bullocks wrote: »
    Sneak in when prices are down and you will still be ahead compared to sucklers even with the BGS

    Yeah you could be right but I'm thinking of building the milking parlour my self next summer I want to be up to about 150 suckers before I switch so I can buy about 120 dairy cows and have extra cash left over to build the milking parlour I know lads that went milking and all say no less than 100000 for a 12 unit parlour. I would prefer to get in with a minimum amount of loans if I could keep the loans below 800 ahead I would be happy


  • Options
    #128
    patjack
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭patjack


    Patzy3I wrote: »
    Yeah you could be right but I'm thinking of building the milking parlour my self next summer I want to be up to about 150 suckers before I switch so I can buy about 120 dairy cows and have extra cash left over to build the milking parlour I know lads that went milking and all say no less than 100000 for a 12 unit parlour. I would prefer to get in with a minimum amount of loans if I could keep the loans below 800 ahead I would be happy


    That would be tidy tipping! Right approach anyway, minimal borrowings and outlay and get the cash flowing, then you can spend a bit more freely. No reason why it wouldn't work if you could keep borrowings to that level. Best of luck if you decide to go ahead with it.


  • Options
    #129
    Canaryblue
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭Canaryblue


    Figerty wrote: »
    I have concerns. Not a conspiracy theory. Are they going to change the start rating model in four years time and raise the bar because the statistical model they have proves inaccurate? So if I commit to this scheme, will the bar be raised later? That is the concern.

    Better breeding is something I aspire to but I want to keep the balance between good calves and keep the vet away.

    At about 8% of CH bulls being 4-5 star, the likely hood is that I am going to wind up with more sections.. yes better bred calves but less profit as a result.
    This is the concern.

    Just wondering are you trying to say that only difficult calving Charolais bulls will end up at 4-5 stars?

    Cause calving difficulty is very heavily weighted in the new system, in fact its nearly impossible to have a 5 star Charolais bull thats higher than 7.5% calving difficulty.


  • Options
    #130
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,697 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    With the ICBF system, each Star represents 20% of the bulls. So for example, 1/5 of all bulls tested will have either 4.5 or 5 stars for whatever trait. The good bulls are out there, maybe just not in AI.

    Edit - this is actually wrong, each star represents 20% of the range for that trait, not 20% of the number of bulls. So well less than 20% of the bulls would be in the top 20% for that trait.



    http://issuu.com/herdplus/docs/euro-star_system_explained

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



  • Options
    #131
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Canaryblue wrote: »
    Just wondering are you trying to say that only difficult calving Charolais bulls will end up at 4-5 stars?

    Cause calving difficulty is very heavily weighted in the new system, in fact its nearly impossible to have a 5 star Charolais bull thats higher than 7.5% calving difficulty.

    Nope,
    But what makes a five star bull is will bring a form and shape that may prove difficult. The make up of the mother is definitely a factor. I have 95-98% CH cows that push out calves with ease that would surprise you.. I have others that a tug of war team will struggle with.

    If only 8% currently meet the 4-5 star categories then we have a problem with the selection variety possible. If only 8% currently meet the criteria and the parameters of the statistical model are changed again then the knock on effects are unknown. Put it this way 92% of bulls aren't available to me.

    If if had a young CH bull, and I though that 7.5% calving difficulty was going to be a factor in star rating by a third party,, do you think I will be recording difficult births honestly????? How many farmers are going to risk having the tipping point from 3 to 4 star affected by a subjective reasoning of what is difficult birth? Do where then does that put the star ratings?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #132
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Figerty wrote: »
    Nope,
    But what makes a five star bull is will bring a form and shape that may prove difficult. The make up of the mother is definitely a factor. I have 95-98% CH cows that push out calves with ease that would surprise you.. I have others that a tug of war team will struggle with.

    If only 8% currently meet the 4-5 star categories then we have a problem with the selection variety possible. If only 8% currently meet the criteria and the parameters of the statistical model are changed again then the knock on effects are unknown. Put it this way 92% of bulls aren't available to me.

    If if had a young CH bull, and I though that 7.5% calving difficulty was going to be a factor in star rating by a third party,, do you think I will be recording difficult births honestly????? How many farmers are going to risk having the tipping point from 3 to 4 star affected by a subjective reasoning of what is difficult birth? Do where then does that put the star ratings?

    That's a very interesting can of worms you have opened there figs;) ICBF will be scratching their heads when all the bulls they got stats on as being easy calving, aren't so easy after 4 or 5 years.

    Let me see now what else could we do to screw up the figures?
    1.Keep the creep feeder well topped up the whole summer and get ICBF out to weigh the calves before 'weaning'.
    2.Be a bit 'slow' registering calves.
    3.If an old cow loses a calf reg a heifer's calf to her, fatten the old cow, a great way to get well above the 0.79 calves/cow national average.
    4.Half castrate the bull calves, bull performance weight gain and grading, and if anyone asks they're all steers.

    I said it before on here 'There's lies, there's damn lies, and then there's statistics'.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • Options
    #133
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    blue5000 wrote: »
    That's a very interesting can of worms you have opened there figs;) ICBF will be scratching their heads when all the bulls they got stats on as being easy calving, aren't so easy after 4 or 5 years.

    Let me see now what else could we do to screw up the figures?
    1.Keep the creep feeder well topped up the whole summer and get ICBF out to weigh the calves before 'weaning'.
    2.Be a bit 'slow' registering calves.
    3.If an old cow loses a calf reg a heifer's calf to her, fatten the old cow, a great way to get well above the 0.79 calves/cow national average.
    4.Half castrate the bull calves, bull performance weight gain and grading, and if anyone asks they're all steers.

    I said it before on here 'There's lies, there's damn lies, and then there's statistics'.

    And of course all my calves are a quiet and docile as hand reared lambs.. on a scale of 1-5.. subjectively applied..they are all 1..5 being a psycopathic murderer of a calf... 1 being drunk sleeping off a night out...

    As I say to the vet, they are grand quiet cows until they try to kill you.....

    BTW. I don't have a bull nor never will. I don't have the scale so I am depending upon the star ratings !!! hahahahahah


  • Options
    #134
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Thanks, never even thought about docility, only important when you're buying (someone else's problems). To be honest I usually remember the mad ones when I'm ticking the box and they go up 1 notch.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • Options
    #135
    Canaryblue
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭Canaryblue


    Figerty wrote: »
    Nope,
    But what makes a five star bull is will bring a form and shape that may prove difficult. The make up of the mother is definitely a factor. I have 95-98% CH cows that push out calves with ease that would surprise you.. I have others that a tug of war team will struggle with.

    If only 8% currently meet the 4-5 star categories then we have a problem with the selection variety possible. If only 8% currently meet the criteria and the parameters of the statistical model are changed again then the knock on effects are unknown. Put it this way 92% of bulls aren't available to me.

    I'm assuming here that you're talking about 5 star terminal bulls, cause believe me there's plenty 5 star Replacement Index Charolais bulls that will throw very average calves; Pinay, Doonally Donald, Tombapik. . .. But they'll be easy calving!

    Also when you say 8%, is that Charolais bulls in AI?


  • Options
    #136
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Canaryblue wrote: »
    I'm assuming here that you're talking about 5 star terminal bulls, cause believe me there's plenty 5 star Replacement Index Charolais bulls that will throw very average calves; Pinay, Doonally Donald, Tombapik. . .. But they'll be easy calving!

    Also when you say 8%, is that Charolais bulls in AI?

    Hi Canary,
    Look at the link that was provided to the pdf earlier. If you go through that you will find a list where there are about 40 CH bulls that make the 4 and 5 star category out of 500.

    You are correct about throwing easy calving, and they are well known to be very average calves... which tells you something about the star ratings.

    If I have a 2 star cow..which I probably have as they are 95-98% CH with good milk for CH bad when compared to Holstein! They are going have to be crossed with 5 star to bring them up.. I can forsee trouble calving.


  • Options
    #137
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,697 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Figerty wrote: »
    ...If if had a young CH bull, and I though that 7.5% calving difficulty was going to be a factor in star rating by a third party,, do you think I will be recording difficult births honestly????? How many farmers are going to risk having the tipping point from 3 to 4 star affected by a subjective reasoning of what is difficult birth? Do where then does that put the star ratings?

    ICBF source info from a huge amount of sources, not just the data you record youself. In fact, the data from the relatives of any given bull have a far greater input into the star ratings for that bull, than the figures inputted for the bull himself.
    Trying to be the cute hoor with statistics just won't work.:D

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



  • Options
    #138
    Canaryblue
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭Canaryblue


    Figerty wrote: »
    Hi Canary,
    Look at the link that was provided to the pdf earlier. If you go through that you will find a list where there are about 40 CH bulls that make the 4 and 5 star category out of 500.

    You are correct about throwing easy calving, and they are well known to be very average calves... which tells you something about the star ratings.

    If I have a 2 star cow..which I probably have as they are 95-98% CH with good milk for CH bad when compared to Holstein! They are going have to be crossed with 5 star to bring them up.. I can forsee trouble calving.

    Fig,
    We've a pedigree Charolais herd so if you think its hard for your herd, its much harder for us! We're aiming that every calf born on our farm will be 4 or 5 stars, and look good enough that someone will buy him. Luckily we've been using loads of Blelack Digger the last few years and he's now ranked as the number 1 active Ch bull on ICBF.

    If you're looking for CH AI bulls to breed from might I suggest looking at
    the Gene Ireland Maternal Bulls. ch2154 & ch2159 are two new bulls that should be available some time this Autumn. They're both 5% calving difficulty too!


  • Options
    #139
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    ICBF source info from a huge amount of sources, not just the data you record youself. In fact, the data from the relatives of any given bull have a far greater input into the star ratings for that bull, than the figures inputted for the bull himself.
    Trying to be the cute hoor with statistics just won't work.:D

    I think what figs was saying was that if everybody starts to give ICBF the same wrong information about calving ease all the stats for calving info will be bullsh1t.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • Options
    #140
    Farrell
    Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Farrell


    Canary,
    Looked them up, figures look good.
    Was chatting a PB breeder recently and he was warning against digger, problems calving daughters down the line, can see allot using him to improve figures.
    Any word How the other gene Ireland Bulls preformed, this scheme could see allot of GI usage


  • Options
    #141
    Canaryblue
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭Canaryblue


    Farrell wrote: »
    Canary,
    Looked them up, figures look good.
    Was chatting a PB breeder recently and he was warning against digger, problems calving daughters down the line, can see allot using him to improve figures.
    Any word How the other gene Ireland Bulls preformed, this scheme could see allot of GI usage

    Well the straws of Digger are very limited in Ireland now so I don't think too many will be able to get there hands on them if they didn't already have them.

    The heifers calving thing is a concern alright but we've calved 4 already and have another bunch calving in the next month. The 4 already were in calf to Thrunton Fairfax, who seems to be just a bit too big for heifers. The rest now are in calf to Alwent Hitman, they should calf him no bother.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #142
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Canaryblue wrote: »
    Fig,
    We've a pedigree Charolais herd so if you think its hard for your herd, its much harder for us! We're aiming that every calf born on our farm will be 4 or 5 stars, and look good enough that someone will buy him. Luckily we've been using loads of Blelack Digger the last few years and he's now ranked as the number 1 active Ch bull on ICBF.

    If you're looking for CH AI bulls to breed from might I suggest looking at
    the Gene Ireland Maternal Bulls. ch2154 & ch2159 are two new bulls that should be available some time this Autumn. They're both 5% calving difficulty too!

    Thanks for that. Very useful info. I don't have pedigree, but have been working towards a high CH% as possible. This new scheme may well scupper the attempt to bring my breed standards right up.

    I can see the Pure bred problems.
    As a part time farmer I can't hope to be at every calving but I don't want monster or sections if possible. I have good weanlings that always go well at the mart. But I have started crossing with LM now to try and limit calving problems.


  • Options
    #143
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,697 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    blue5000 wrote: »
    I think what figs was saying was that if everybody starts to give ICBF the same wrong information about calving ease all the stats for calving info will be bullsh1t.

    But why would you do that? Would you not like to warn other farmers about difficult bulls?

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



  • Options
    #144
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    But why would you do that? Would you not like to warn other farmers about difficult bulls?

    Because farmers are self interested and always will be. If they feel they will get a better price for a bull or a bull calf with better statistics they will bend the rules.

    What would Larry Goodman do?????


  • Options
    #145
    Canaryblue
    Registered Users Posts: 113 ✭✭Canaryblue


    Figerty wrote: »

    What would Larry Goodman do?????

    If we all start living our lives by Larry's code, than humanity is screwed


  • Options
    #146
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,697 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Figerty wrote: »
    Because farmers are self interested and always will be. If they feel they will get a better price for a bull or a bull calf with better statistics they will bend the rules.

    What would Larry Goodman do?????

    But a breeder won't be using his own bull to breed, in most cases anyway, so how can he bend the rules.
    A certain amount of farmers will input the wrong data for calving difficulty, but that applies to all bulls, so the error is the same for all bulls and so in effect cancels itself out that way. I think farmers and breeders underestimate the power they have to manipulate figures for their own animals. Most of the data is coming from mart weights/prices, factory weights/grades/fat scores, all relatives of the animals on other farms - all of this is outside their control.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



  • Options
    #147
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    But a breeder won't be using his own bull to breed, in most cases anyway, so how can he bend the rules.
    A certain amount of farmers will input the wrong data for calving difficulty, but that applies to all bulls, so the error is the same for all bulls and so in effect cancels itself out that way. I think farmers and breeders underestimate the power they have to manipulate figures for their own animals. Most of the data is coming from mart weights/prices, factory weights/grades/fat scores, all relatives of the animals on other farms - all of this is outside their control.

    It doens't really cancel itself out. It means the level of confidence in the data is lessened. If I indicated high on some thing and you indicate low the average is the same but not the spread of results. Averages mean very little..
    If my head is in the oven and my arse is in the fridge, on average I am nice an warm....
    That's why the Teagasc data has a R squared value to show the confidence in the data. Anything over 0.9 is good anything over 0.95 is a very high correlation. With lots of little influencing factors the star rating is open to a lot of error.

    How do you know an ideal suckler cow.. go down to field and look at it and it's mother if possible.


  • Options
    #148
    Grueller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,113 ✭✭✭Grueller


    Figerty wrote: »
    How do you know an ideal suckler cow.. go down to field and look at it and it's mother if possible.

    And then some will say an angus or hereford for low input, others will say black limo off dairy herd for milk, others will say continental for carcass conformation, others will say simmental for carcass size and milk and around and around she goes til eternity.
    The beauty of the debate is everyone is right for what works for them.


  • Options
    #149
    Figerty
    Registered Users Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Figerty


    Grueller wrote: »
    And then some will say an angus or hereford for low input, others will say black limo off dairy herd for milk, others will say continental for carcass conformation, others will say simmental for carcass size and milk and around and around she goes til eternity.
    The beauty of the debate is everyone is right for what works for them.

    Indeed you are correct!


  • Options
    #150
    Patzy3I
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭Patzy3I


    Is it at all possible the reason ch Bulls aren't 4 and 5 star is because there is simply to many flaws in the breed. Maybe the majority just aren't 4 and 5 star cattle. The best icbf can do is take all the satistics and ad them up I'm sure it's not a fluke that certain other breeds like lm come out on top


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #151
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭tanko


    Patzy3I wrote: »
    Is it at all possible the reason ch Bulls aren't 4 and 5 star is because there is simply to many flaws in the breed. Maybe the majority just aren't 4 and 5 star cattle. The best icbf can do is take all the satistics and ad them up I'm sure it's not a fluke that certain other breeds like lm come out on top

    In my local mart CH cattle of all ages from suck calves to finished cattle achieve better prices on average than all other breeds.
    ICBF figures favour progeny off easy calving Bulls, this is why CH Bulls don't do well on their figures.


Advertisement