Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

judeboy101 · 17-05-2019 11:08am #1

https://www.thejournal.ie/holles-st-review-termination-of-pregnancy-4639179-May2019/

interesting one. Docs obviously fecked up test but mother didn't want a dodgy baby

barrier86 · 17-05-2019 11:09am

This will be interesting

orourkeda1977 · 17-05-2019 11:10am

This is the case we've all been waiting for.

amcalester · 17-05-2019 11:11am

It wasn't that they didn't want a dodgy baby, they were told the child wouldn't survive.

Maybe read up on what Edwards Syndrome is.

elusiveoctopus · 17-05-2019 11:13am

amcalester wrote: »

It wasn't that they didn't want a dodgy baby, they were told the child wouldn't survive.

Maybe read up on what Edwards Syndrome is.

"It was thought the baby had Trisomy18, also known as Edwards Syndrome, but a series of genetic tests later found that was not the case."

Maybe they should confirm the child had the disease before acting on it.

KSU · 17-05-2019 11:14am

There were 3 sets of tests sent for but they acted on 2 (the most comprehensive test being the one where results came back after termination)

From a legal sense how can they act without all information being back.

From a budget sense why are you ordering third party testing without ever planning on taking them into consideration.

daheff · 17-05-2019 11:15am

elusiveoctopus wrote: »

"It was thought the baby had Trisomy18, also known as Edwards Syndrome, but a series of genetic tests later found that was not the case."

Maybe they should confirm the child had the disease before acting on it.

From what I heard about this case (on news radio) the first test said the child had the disease. A second test was delayed in being reported. This test had a different result.

Really sad that this has happened.

amcalester · 17-05-2019 11:17am

elusiveoctopus wrote: »

"It was thought the baby had Trisomy18, also known as Edwards Syndrome, but a series of genetic tests later found that was not the case."

Maybe they should confirm the child had the disease before acting on it.

It's not a disease.

For all we know they (I assume you're referring to the parents) thought it was confirmed.

17-05-2019 11:17am

How the f-- did the hospital make a balls of the genetic test twice in a row?

How does that even happen?

The chances of two false positives in a row for Edwards Syndrome must be staggeringly unlikely, unless there was a mix-up with another foetus?

nozzferrahhtoo · 17-05-2019 11:22am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

How the f-- did the hospital make a balls of the genetic test twice in a row?

How does that even happen?

The chances of two false positives in a row for Edwards Syndrome must be staggeringly unlikely, unless there was a mix-up with another foetus?

A user called seasidedub made two posts over on the A&A forum today on that very question if you want to go read them. I am not sure I should copy and paste their content here incase that is plagarism or some such

matc66 · 17-05-2019 11:22am

This is what happened I believe.
https://www.stanfordchildrens.org/en/topic/default?id=mosaicism-90-P02132
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(genetics)

54and56 · 17-05-2019 11:24am

daheff wrote: »

From what I heard about this case (on news radio) the first test said the child had the disease. A second test was delayed in being reported. This test had a different result.

Really sad that this has happened.

Really very sad for the parents.

I have direct experience of a baby being born with Triosomy 13 over 20 years ago. It was badly deformed and lived for less than a month. Today, if I was faced with the choice facing these parents I'd make exactly the same decision they did.

Giving birth to a such a deformed and/or non viable baby is a nightmare I wouldn't wish any parent or newborn child to have to endure.

The problem here is protocol abs process which need to be improved to minimise a repeat happening again but regardless of how good the process or protocol human error in medicine/healthcare will always occur whether it is an early stage foetus or an 80 year old pensioner.

Snow Garden · 17-05-2019 11:24am

elusiveoctopus wrote: »

"It was thought the baby had Trisomy18, also known as Edwards Syndrome, but a series of genetic tests later found that was not the case."

Maybe they should confirm the child had the disease before acting on it.

Your first post on Boards is a heavy one!

Jaster Rogue · 17-05-2019 11:25am

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

B-D-P-- · 17-05-2019 11:27am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

Not the same, A mother aborted her child that she (hopefully) wanted because of misinformation....
Totally different, so off you ride on your waffle train.

Jaster Rogue · 17-05-2019 11:29am

B-D-P-- wrote: »

Not the same, A mother aborted her child that she (hopefully) wanted because of misinformation....
Totally different, so off you ride on your waffle train.

Doesn't change the fact the 8th would have prevented this healthy baby's killing. The truth hurts sometimes.

nozzferrahhtoo · 17-05-2019 11:29am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

What do you mean "now"? I am proud of the work we did to repeal some harmful text in our constitution.

And I did so KNOWING a case like this would eventually happen. Why? Because ALL medical intervention comes with the risk that we will make a bad call, or make the right call on bad information. We know there is a potential for this. This is not somehow unique to abortion by any means. If we were to halt medical progress because of the potential for isolated cases of this sort, we would make no progress at all.

If people are using medical information to make medical decisions, then statistically we will inevitably ALWAYS find a case where the medical information was wrong.

All we can do is work to minimise such occurrences. And when they DO occur, make it clear we are learning from them.

And that too will make me proud, if we do it correctly.

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact the 8th would have prevented this healthy baby's killing. The truth hurts sometimes.

The truth only hurts if one is not willing to accept reality and be prepared for it. Even the best medical intentions will result in bad and upsetting results eventually. THAT is the truth we need to swallow, and nothing about this case is relevant to me as an argument against what I feel the referendum got 100% right.

Snow Garden · 17-05-2019 11:29am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

Yes. I am very proud to have repealed the 8th amendment for many reasons.

This is a very sad story, I hope hospitals put procedures in place so that it never happens again.

KSU · 17-05-2019 11:30am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

The same amendment has seen the death of mothers like Savita Halappanavar.

Tragic cases like this don't justify a position there are always gonna be singular cases for and against

17-05-2019 11:30am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

Like many others, this couple may well have just gone to England for a termination, adding further to their trauma through stigma and isolation.

Ricosruffneck · 17-05-2019 11:30am

I support abortion.

But i'm curious, in this instance if the 8th hadn't been changed would the baby have been aborted (in Ireland)?

What are the facts? without getting emotive over what has happened here please.

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-05-2019 11:31am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact the 8th would have prevented this healthy baby's killing. The truth hurts sometimes.

Actually it wouldnt have.

Presuming the mother got the same results and decided (as she did this time) to have an abortion she would have had to go through the trauma of travelling to have said abortion.

The 8th would not have stopped this from happening so climb back down off your high horse.

kneemos · 17-05-2019 11:31am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

It was obviously the child's destiny.

Snow Garden · 17-05-2019 11:32am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact the 8th would have prevented this healthy baby's killing. The truth hurts sometimes.

There are no winners in complex situations like this. I am not sure about your empathy to be honest.

nullzero · 17-05-2019 11:32am

There's a serious malpractice case in the offing here.
I know somebody who had to get tested for this very issue, as far as I know the tests are done in America and take time to come back, but not so much that it's a massive wait.
In the end their baby was healthy, it must be a real gut punch for that couple to find out the abortion wasn't necessary.
Whoever is responsible should be struck off.

RobertKK · 17-05-2019 11:34am

It is a very sad case, but the couple can't complain, only they made that choice.
The parents and the unborn had no choice to undo the past when the wrong diagnosis was discovered. But ultimately this was the choice of the parents.

KSU · 17-05-2019 11:34am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Actually it wouldnt have.

Presuming the mother got the same results and decided (as she did this time) to have an abortion she would have had to go through the trauma of travelling to have said abortion.

The 8th would not have stopped this from happening so climb back down off your high horse.

That may not be true as results may or may not have come back in the meantime (unclear of timeline)

However I do agree with the sentiment of the post.

17-05-2019 11:36am

nullzero wrote: »

There's a serious malpractice case in the offing here.
I know somebody who had to get tested for this very issue, as far as I know the tests are done in America and take time to come back, but not so much that it's a massive wait.
In the end their baby was healthy, it must be a real gut punch for that couple to find out the abortion wasn't necessary.
Whoever is responsible should be struck off.

I don't know if they should be struck off, but on the face of it, the words 'gross negligence' leap off the screen, reading that article.

The idea that anyone thinks this is a basis for reinstating the 8th amendment is preposterous. The story here is a pretty shocking mis-diagnosis.

I don't believe you can sue for wrongful birth (eg baby born after vasectomy), but I assume you can, in theory, sue for wrongful abortion?

nozzferrahhtoo · 17-05-2019 11:37am

RobertKK wrote: »

It is a very sad case, but the couple can't complain, only they made that choice.

That depends, as another user wrote on another thread, on how well the meaning of the results of the test was explained to the couple in question. As the user wrote, the tests that likely were done were screening tests, not diagnostic.

If that was not explained adequately to the couple in question THAT is a problem. And not at all the couples fault.

I will wait for the details before I take part in trial by social media on that one.

54and56 · 17-05-2019 11:38am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

What an idiotic (I'm being kind) post.

Hedgelayer · 17-05-2019 11:38am

Such a sad time for the parents.
All the best intentions and then to find out they'll be without child.

Its not good, not good at all.

RobertKK · 17-05-2019 11:39am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I don't know if they should be struck off, but on the face of it, the words 'gross negligence' leap off the screen, reading that article.

The idea that anyone thinks this is a basis for reinstating the 8th amendment is preposterous. The story here is a pretty shocking mis-diagnosis.

I don't believe you can sue for wrongful birth (eg baby born after vasectomy), but I assume you can, in theory, sue for wrongful abortion?

It wasn't a wrongful abortion. The diagnosis was wrong, but ultimately this couple asked for an abortion. We were told abortion is about choice, and here they made the wrong one. At 15 weeks it was still early and quite clearly all the tests had not run their course, when this couple chose abortion.
Edit:ok tests later, but could these tests have been done before the abortion?

kneemos · 17-05-2019 11:43am

54&56 wrote: »

What an idiotic (I'm being kind) post.

Glee from the Christian's.

Jaster Rogue · 17-05-2019 11:46am

Ricosruffneck wrote: »

I support abortion.

But i'm curious, in this instance if the 8th hadn't been changed would the baby have been aborted (in Ireland)?

What are the facts? without getting emotive over what has happened here please.

Doesn't that just prove our laws were correct and theirs wrong?
Our former laws would not have resulted in the slaughter of an innocent little baby. Theirs would.

Edit meant to quote post about travelling to uk

mariaalice · 17-05-2019 11:47am

No medical test is definitive, its the quest for and the belief in certainty that is the heart of the problem.

Every risk in life can not be eliminated but somehow we are evolving a society when we think we can take the risk out of everything.

suicide_circus · 17-05-2019 11:49am

i think most people have heard of cases in which parents were told the baby wouldn't survive only for them to have a healthy teenager years later. happened in my family anyway. doctors are human and can be wrong. tests can be inaccurate or misread. its the risk you take.

Jaster Rogue · 17-05-2019 11:50am

People are making out here that a little collateral damage is grand. This is an innocent defenceless human being we're talking about. 1 mistake is too many.

17-05-2019 11:50am

RobertKK wrote: »

It wasn't a wrongful abortion. The diagnosis was wrong,

What I mean to ask is, whether anyone has ever taken a case for wrongful abortion as a specific wrong, or tort.

Because if there was negligence, this seems far worse than an 'ordinary' case of negligence where a person is injured, but nobody dies. Or, where somebody does die, but they're dead and they cannot sue or their relatives' award of damages is limited by legislation (as happens here in Ireland). This current scenario seems pretty unique.

but ultimately this couple asked for an abortion. We were told abortion is about choice, and here they made the wrong one

It was the right choice for them, given the information they had. You cannot just skip over the fact that the couple seem to believe they were not properly informed.

54and56 · 17-05-2019 11:50am

nullzero wrote: »

Whoever is responsible should be struck off offered support and training so the mistake isn't repeated again in the future.

Fixed that for you for three reasons:-

1. Everyone makes mistakes.
2. The person who made the mistake will have to live with the consequences of their error forever. Not an easy thing to do. In a civilised society you support people not throw them on the scrap heap. Who knows what pressure the person was under or whether they were in the last hour of a 12 hour shift when this error was made.
3. What is the benefit to society of throwing away 7 years of medical training (or whatever) because of one genuine mistake? Is it not better for that person to learn from the mistake, get some additional training/counselling and return to serving patients? Do you really think this person is EVER likely to make the same mistake again?

ebbsy · 17-05-2019 11:53am

Loads of people think that it is free to bring up kids, let's keep having babies.

54and56 · 17-05-2019 11:54am

RobertKK wrote: »

It is a very sad case, but the couple can't complain, only they made that choice.
The parents and the unborn had no choice to undo the past when the wrong diagnosis was discovered. But ultimately this was the choice of the parents.

Do you really believe the couple can't complain about being given the wrong diagnosis?

Can you elaborate on why?

If you were wrongly diagnosed as having X and opted to have your leg amputated to mitigate or remedy the problem and it turned out the diagnosis was completely wrong would it not cross your mind to perhaps complain? Fair play to you if it wouldn't. It certainly would for me!!

nozzferrahhtoo · 17-05-2019 11:54am

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

People are making out here that a little collateral damage is grand. This is an innocent defenceless human being we're talking about.

I do not think anyone is making out it is "grand". I certainly did not. What we are making out is that it is to be EXPECTED. You said it yourself "The truth hurts sometimes." and the truth is when we implement any medical policy, someone somewhere suffers or dies.

This is not new, not unique, not a surprise, not a shock, not a revelation. It is known.

Vaccination save lives. Yet SOME small number of people die from adverse reactions to them. Drugs save lives. Yet SOME small number of people die from adverse reactions to them. Medical surgery saves lives or improves someone's well being but SOME number of people die from adverse reactions to them.

To twist this case into an anti abortion agenda therefore is as misleading as it is disgusting. We KNOW that allowing people to choose abortion will result in SOME human misery. Either choices made on bad data such as this..... or even death to the pregnant women through adverse effects to the abortion procedure.

The numbers will be small. But they will be there. That is, alas, the reality of medicine. Design a bridge. Build it. Go over it. Again you said it yourself. Sometimes the truth hurts. But we should not crumble from the right decision in the face of pain.

nullzero · 17-05-2019 11:57am

54&56 wrote: »

Fixed that for you for three reasons:-

1. Everyone makes mistakes.
2. The person who made the mistake will have to live with the consequences of their error forever. Not an easy thing to do. In a civilised society you support people not throw them on the scrap heap. Who knows what pressure the person was under or whether they were in the last hour of a 12 hour shift when this error was made.
3. What is the benefit to society of throwing away 7 years of medical training (or whatever) because of one genuine mistake? Is it not better for that person to learn from the mistake, get some additional training/counselling and return to serving patients? Do you really think this person is EVER likely to make the same mistake again?

After seven years of training a doctor should be capable of waiting for test results before advising a woman to get an abortion.
She didn't have a toe amputated here, a healthy baby was aborted when it shouldnt have been.

What benefit is it to society to have an incompetent doctor making mistakes of this magnitude?
Every apprentice carpenter learns to measure twice and cut once on their first day.

Thanks for fixing it for me BTW, you really set me straight.

Larbre34 · 17-05-2019 11:58am

In the case of cervical screening errors, the Courts have asked for 'absolute confidence' going forward, which may undermine the programme and all other population screening as it is impossible of any medical test.

This outcome is tragic for the parents, but it could have happened in exactly the same way under the previous regimen with the termination taking place abroad. I do hope they recover and in future have a successful pregnancy.

I also hope that as we approach the anniversary of the 8th amendment vote that both sides will refrain from hijacking this very sad situation for their own political aims.

Dirkziggler · 17-05-2019 11:59am

Why is there a smugness of the anti abortion camp regarding this tragic situation this isn’t a situation to point score.

The comment “This is the case we’ve been waiting for “ can this be clarified please.

suicide_circus · 17-05-2019 12:00pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

.I also hope that as we approach the anniversary of the 8th amendment vote that both sides will refrain from hijacking this very sad situation for their own political aims.

it has to be pointed out that tragic cases were used to promote the Repeal campaign.

corner of hells · 17-05-2019 12:03pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

This is the case we've all been waiting for.

This is what you've been waiting for ?

For Jaysus sake.

Gimme A Pound · 17-05-2019 12:08pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

There are no winners in complex situations like this. I am not sure about your empathy to be honest.

Agreed. It seems at times that being anti abortion in all circumstances is just a "sticking it to the left and the feminists" position, by people who hardly seem like they give a sh1t about unborn babies (their eagerness to throw in "leftie liberal woke" whatever reinforces this). They certainly don't seem to give a sh1t about many living babies.

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

This is the case we've all been waiting for.

"We've all" what?

yourdeadwright · 17-05-2019 12:16pm

Can people STF up about the repeal the 8th or not to repeal the 8th and just think about the poor family for a minute , Any of there family could be on here reading this

Its an awful tragic accident, and not time for people to sling mud at each other,

meeeeh · 17-05-2019 12:17pm

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

People are making out here that a little collateral damage is grand. This is an innocent defenceless human being we're talking about. 1 mistake is too many.

It's not a human being though. It's a pity because parents obviously wanted a child and I think that kind of cock ups shouldn't happen and should be punished (if it was a cock up).

This should be a discussion about possible medical negligence and not about the 8th.

circadian · 17-05-2019 12:17pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

This is the case we've all been waiting for.

Classy.

Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

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