Wales vs Ireland buildup [MOD WARNING POST #8]

04-03-2015 2:17pm

timaru89 wrote: »

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-v-ireland-only-six-8765818

Welsh article making a composite team of both nations. 9 Welsh v 6 Irish. More than a hint of bias!

Seems fair enough to be honest

molloyjh · 04-03-2015 2:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Seems fair enough to be honest

Yeah there's a few marginal calls that go the way of the Welsh player (or the most experienced player) which is to be expected. Nothing to really get worked up about at all. I might argue the LH call somewhat but again how much of that is bias on my part I'm not sure.

thomond2006 · 04-03-2015 2:30pm

Zebo over Delon Williams. This journo wins.

total former · 04-03-2015 2:36pm

Yeah, it's fair enough really. I think all Welsh people overrate Gethin Jenkins who is well past his best, and I'm not sure Samson Lee has really proved himself yet, but meh, not much to be outraged over.

sydthebeat · 04-03-2015 2:42pm

total former wrote: »

Yeah, it's fair enough really. I think all Welsh people overrate Gethin Jenkins who is well past his best, and I'm not sure Samson Lee has really proved himself yet, but meh, not much to be outraged over.

agreed...

horses for courses as well.

still think warburton is a very over rated rugby player

bilston · 04-03-2015 2:43pm

timaru89 wrote: »

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-v-ireland-only-six-8765818

Welsh article making a composite team of both nations. 9 Welsh v 6 Irish. More than a hint of bias!

I don't see much controversy here. You could make the odd argument here and there but it isn't an unreasonable selection.

Just on the 20 point win last year, we shouldn't forget that most of that Welsh were on the come down after the Lions, it was always likely to be a tough year for them. They look in much better shape this year.

Jeepers this could be as tight as '09 lads.

total former · 04-03-2015 2:45pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

agreed...

horses for courses as well.

still think warburton is a very over rated rugby player

Actually I was momentarily outraged by that, but then he says that Warburton is picked because of O'Brien's injury problems, and it's hard to argue there.

timaru89 · 04-03-2015 3:09pm

A giant marquee with Warren G's face on it will be erected

bilston wrote: »

Jeepers this could be as tight as '09 lads.

Hopefully not too tight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wrp4c-x95w. Don't think heart would be able for a repeat of that.

irishbucsfan · 04-03-2015 3:17pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

agreed...

horses for courses as well.

still think warburton is a very over rated rugby player

Warburton put paid to that ridiculous notion (which seems more common in Ireland than elsewhere for some reason?) during the Lions tour. In terms of tight play he's just unparalleled in Europe (except maybe l'Armitage obese when he's on form, which isn't exactly common).

I don't think you can really compare him to O'Brien directly though, that's not really comparing like with like, but if I had to choose one in a vacuum it would be SOB.

Quint2010 · 04-03-2015 3:18pm

Closed

Wales might have better players but Ireland have a better team (and coach). Give me the latter any day.

shuffol · 04-03-2015 4:34pm

Quint2010 wrote: »

Wales might have better players but Ireland have a better team (and coach). Give me the latter any day.

Yep, and at what point do guys that are playing better just accepted as better players. It's hard to call.

Tox56 · 04-03-2015 5:12pm

shuffol wrote: »

Yep, and at what point do guys that are playing better just accepted as better players. It's hard to call.

I really don't buy the notion that Wales have better players that gets repeated everywhere. Comparable sure but they're not noticeably better than us in any area except maybe centre, and I think closing that gap is just a matter of time

corny · 04-03-2015 5:17pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Warburton put paid to that ridiculous notion (which seems more common in Ireland than elsewhere for some reason?) during the Lions tour. In terms of tight play he's just unparalleled in Europe (except maybe l'Armitage obese when he's on form, which isn't exactly common).

That's an exaggeration. One game (third Lions test) doesn't cement his position as the premier anything in Europe.

He's robust at the breakdown and every now and again a few fancy turnovers go his way but he brings little else if we're comparing him to SOB.

Have nothing against Warburton mind you. Honest lad who'll play hard when the chips are down. Also, he was made for Gatland and his game plan.

irishbucsfan · 04-03-2015 5:30pm

corny wrote: »

That's an exaggeration. One game (third Lions test) doesn't cement his position as the premier anything in Europe.

He's robust at the breakdown and every now and again a few fancy turnovers go his way but he brings little else if we're comparing him to SOB.

Have nothing against Warburton mind you. Honest lad who'll play hard when the chips are down. Also, he was made for Gatland and his game plan.

He didn't play the 3rd test, so I'm fairly sure that game definitely wouldn't have affected his reputation much either way.

However every other game he plays does, including the other two tests where he was among the best players on the pitch, and that's probably why he's rated so highly. If he didn't bring much outside the breakdown he probably wouldn't end up as captain of every team he ever comes into contact with!

Yeah_Right · 04-03-2015 5:50pm

Have to say I think Warburton is a bit over-hyped. Very good player but not as good as some in the media make him out to be. i think his captaincy helps cement his starting spot for Wales otherwise Tipuric might get more game time.

Neil3030 · 04-03-2015 6:27pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

If a Kiwi said this...

Sexton I'll give you. No-one has yet explained to me why Murray is definitively better than Smith, and why Schmidt is definitively better than Hansen. There is an extremely lazy perception that the village idiot could coach the ABs, heck the team just saunters up on the Saturday and wins with no training, preparation, gameplan etc.

There once was a man named Joe, who took a team that lost in Rome, put Dave Kearney in it, and won the Six Nations.

I believe this argument is now put to bed.

TommyOM · 04-03-2015 6:43pm

Could Sexton be a bigger factor than Joe in Ireland and Leinster's success?

What's Ireland's win/loss ratio on games where Sexton has started?

Hagz · 04-03-2015 7:01pm

TommyOM wrote: »

Could Sexton be a bigger factor than Joe in Ireland and Leinster's success?

What's Ireland's win/loss ratio on games where Sexton has started?

He is absolutely a bigger factor in Leinster and Ireland's success.

I think the win loss ratio is like 22/20.

matthew8 · 04-03-2015 7:08pm

Sexton's more important because the replacements are unsatisfactory. If Schmidt had to leave the job Ireland would be able to hire a coach who can coach an international side to a reasonable level. Sexton's replacements are playing poorly so he'd be a big loss, but if Ireland had a healthy and in form Jackson I think they'd still stand a pretty good chance at winning the 6 nations.

jm08 · 04-03-2015 7:19pm

TommyOM wrote: »

Could Sexton be a bigger factor than Joe in Ireland and Leinster's success?

What's Ireland's win/loss ratio on games where Sexton has started?

I think a healthy POC has been a huge factor. He has missed one game against Scotland since Schmidt has become coach.

The the42.ie has done some analysis - some unbelievable stuff from him (like leading player being first to the ruck and 2nd) apart from his leadership etc.

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-england-rucks-1971929-Mar2015/

Idbatterim · 04-03-2015 7:23pm

this from an english website! 61% of bets backing Ireland, I prefer when people put their money where their mouth is...

http://www.oddschecker.com/rugby-union/six-nations/wales-v-ireland/winner

gosplan · 04-03-2015 7:40pm

The only time Ireland seem vulnerable is when the opposition send on 20 stone ball carrying monsters in the last 15 mins.

Or overall where the opposition can still smash it up against a tired team.

How are Wales in this regard?

Regarding the Sexton/Joe debate, I say Joe. Give him a year and he'd have the team playing fine without Sexton.

No other coach has ever solved the Irish psychological problem. We're going around acting like winners rather than losers having an off-day.

Kidney, Eddie etc all had teams this good to work with but never produced this.

Idbatterim · 04-03-2015 8:12pm

what I dont get in the last twenty is why Ireland always kick, why not keep ball in hand? We just seem to invite a wave of attack and heart in mouth stuff!

.ak · 04-03-2015 8:14pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

what I dont get in the last twenty is why Ireland always kick, why not keep ball in hand? We just seem to invite a wave of attack and heart in mouth stuff!

I suppose the kick chase is harder. Wingers being asked if them for 80 must be tough. But tactically speaking I think it's the right call.

total former · 04-03-2015 8:41pm

gosplan wrote: »

The only time Ireland seem vulnerable is when the opposition send on 20 stone ball carrying monsters in the last 15 mins.

Or overall where the opposition can still smash it up against a tired team.

How are Wales in this regard?

Regarding the Sexton/Joe debate, I say Joe. Give him a year and he'd have the team playing fine without Sexton.

No other coach has ever solved the Irish psychological problem. We're going around acting like winners rather than losers having an off-day.

Kidney, Eddie etc all had teams this good to work with but never produced this.

I have very little respect left for Kidney but in 2009 we were in a fantastic vein of form. Eddie had us playing rugby in 06-07 that we have never matched under Joe. Subsequent events took the sheen off those achievements but they shouldn't be forgotten.

chupacabra · 04-03-2015 8:57pm

total former wrote: »

I have very little respect left for Kidney but in 2009 we were in a fantastic vein of form. Eddie had us playing rugby in 06-07 that we have never matched under Joe. Subsequent events took the sheen off those achievements but they shouldn't be forgotten.

The game has changed a fair bit too since 06-07

molloyjh · 04-03-2015 9:00pm

total former wrote: »

I have very little respect left for Kidney but in 2009 we were in a fantastic vein of form. Eddie had us playing rugby in 06-07 that we have never matched under Joe. Subsequent events took the sheen off those achievements but they shouldn't be forgotten.

Agreed. It should be noted though that the game is vastly different to 8 years ago. So it's hard to really compare. But relatively speaking Eddie had us playing some truly marvellous stuff prior to the 2007 RWC.

total former · 04-03-2015 9:06pm

chupacabra wrote: »

The game has changed a fair bit too since 06-07

Of course it has but the point was "Joe has us playing like winners, no other coach has managed that" and it's just not correct.

Tox56 · 04-03-2015 9:11pm

total former wrote: »

I have very little respect left for Kidney but in 2009 we were in a fantastic vein of form. Eddie had us playing rugby in 06-07 that we have never matched under Joe. Subsequent events took the sheen off those achievements but they shouldn't be forgotten.

Well under eddie it was prettier but in terms of actual achievements I think 2014 and so far in 2015 has been at least as good as that 2006-07 period. In both periods there were good wins over SA and Aus and a good six nations, but a championship win and a win in Paris are in favour of Schmidt

timaru89 · 04-03-2015 10:14pm

A giant marquee with Warren G's face on it will be erected

TommyOM wrote: »

What's Ireland's win/loss ratio on games where Sexton has started?

W23 D1 L17

rrpc · 04-03-2015 10:16pm

Closed

total former wrote: »

Of course it has but the point was "Joe has us playing like winners, no other coach has managed that" and it's just not correct.

I think you could say that we've reached a level of consistency that so far only Eddie has matched. However we look more like exceeding that level now.

Teferi · 04-03-2015 10:47pm

total former wrote: »

Of course it has but the point was "Joe has us playing like winners, no other coach has managed that" and it's just not correct.

I think he is talking about headology rather than consistency of play though. I'd agree with him too, I think Joe has gotten them over the psychological hump that we often face. At least, I don't feel like we're going to crumble at any given moment or that our confidence is a balancing act.

total former · 04-03-2015 11:11pm

Teferi wrote: »

I think he is talking about headology rather than consistency of play though. I'd agree with him too, I think Joe has gotten them over the psychological hump that we often face. At least, I don't feel like we're going to crumble at any given moment or that our confidence is a balancing act.

Yeah but my point is about headology too. Right, so Kidney inherited Eddie's 2008 team, introduced approximately zero new tactics but somehow won a Grand Slam and stayed undefeated in 2009. The legend is that it was all down to his man management, the Carton House meeting etc. putting the players in the right frame of mind. Likewise Eddie had us playing with huge confidence for most of his reign. I think we're reading too much into this tbh.

gosplan · 05-03-2015 12:25am

Teferi wrote: »

I think he is talking about headology rather than consistency of play though. I'd agree with him too, I think Joe has gotten them over the psychological hump that we often face. At least, I don't feel like we're going to crumble at any given moment or that our confidence is a balancing act.

This was kind of my point. Ireland have of course been successful before and I'm not at all trying to detract from that.

However we're very close to following a championship win with another, perhaps a slam, while having rediculously good AI's in between.

Nobody's produced that consistency when managing Ireland and for me it's what set's him apart. We always had great days but we had a fragility that I don't see now. Then I think he also deserves huge credit for making it an effective 25/30 man squad which no one else ever did.

I don't think our team are as fantastic as this thread is making out at times. I don't see how you can compare Henshaw to Roberts. I don't think we can just label Murray the best SH in the world etc.

But Jesus, 1-22 this is one organised bloody-minded team. It's not about the sheer talent ... which is a fragile thing to depend on. It's about the gameplan, the organisation and the attention to detail.

Really I think what Schmidt has done is truly incredible

Edit: I don't think it's headology as much as players make fewer mistakes when they know exactly what the plan is and what they're supposed to do.

TommyOM · 05-03-2015 10:30am

total former wrote: »

I have very little respect left for Kidney but in 2009 we were in a fantastic vein of form. Eddie had us playing rugby in 06-07 that we have never matched under Joe. Subsequent events took the sheen off those achievements but they shouldn't be forgotten.

We were winning but winning very ugly. The matches were littered with mistakes and there was little invention. Under Schmidt it ain't pretty but you can see that theres a gameplan to it and the errors are minimal. People forget that we were playing absolutely brutal stuff under Kidney that Grand Slam year. Remember the England and Scotland games?

Kidney dragged us over the line with Eddie's team in my opinion.

clsmooth · 05-03-2015 10:33am

A giant marquee with Warren G's face on it will be erected

timaru89 wrote: »

W23 D1 L17

Can you separate that into Kidneys and Schmidt's results? Must be about 85% under Schmidt, 50% under Kidney. Proof that Schmidt deserves his credit.

total former · 05-03-2015 10:54am

TommyOM wrote: »

We were winning but winning very ugly. The matches were littered with mistakes and there was little invention. Under Schmidt it ain't pretty but you can see that theres a gameplan to it and the errors are minimal. People forget that we were playing absolutely brutal stuff under Kidney that Grand Slam year. Remember the England and Scotland games?

Kidney dragged us over the line with Eddie's team in my opinion.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I said.

TommyOM · 05-03-2015 10:58am

total former wrote: »

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I said.

Yeah I was adding to it. Whats the problem?

total former · 05-03-2015 11:00am

TommyOM wrote: »

Yeah I was adding to it. Whats the problem?

I'm sorry, thought you were implying I had forgotten what the 2009 season was like.

rrpc · 05-03-2015 11:27am

Closed

clsmooth wrote: »

Can you separate that into Kidneys and Schmidt's results? Must be about 85% under Schmidt, 50% under Kidney. Proof that Schmidt deserves his credit.

If it's just the games Sexton started, he's played in 13 of which we lost 3. That's a win percentage of 76%.

So the Kidney element is W13 D1 L14, Win percentage of 46%.

.ak · 05-03-2015 12:37pm

Change of ref for the Welsh game....

http://www.worldrugby.org/news/59700

I actually prefer Walsh...

sydthebeat · 05-03-2015 12:44pm

barnes is very much a 'homer' ref...

that said, i dont think it will make a significant difference.

total former · 05-03-2015 12:52pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

barnes is very much a 'homer' ref...

that said, i dont think it will make a significant difference.

Except when we played France there a couple of weeks ago and, reading this forum, he apparently screwed us (the home team) over at every opportunity.

He's not a homer ref, he's a good ref.

sydthebeat · 05-03-2015 12:54pm

total former wrote: »

Except when we played France there a couple of weeks ago and, reading this forum, he apparently screwed us (the home team) over at every opportunity.

He's not a homer ref, he's a good ref.

you know better than to take the match day thread as gospel

personally i think he was fine against france

Quin_Dub · 05-03-2015 1:02pm

total former wrote: »

Except when we played France there a couple of weeks ago and, reading this forum, he apparently screwed us (the home team) over at every opportunity.

He's not a homer ref, he's a good ref.

Barnes , like most English refs in recent years is incredibly pedantic and doesn't let the game flow.

Every game I see him ref, whether we are playing or not I don't enjoy the game, he sucks the life out of it...

Walsh at least lets the game flow and allows the game to develop.

awec · 05-03-2015 1:04pm

Barnes!

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

.ak · 05-03-2015 1:05pm

Yeah. I don't think Barnes will effect a win or loss, but his games are rarely enjoyable. The semi in Bordeaux really took away what could've been a spectacle - still a brilliant game, but ended up being a bloody battle.

dited · 05-03-2015 1:14pm

It's even worse than we thought, according to the IT

Stuart Barnes appointed as replacement referee for Ireland v. Wales

ionadnapokot · 05-03-2015 2:06pm

Wud have preferred Walsh. Scrums will be a mess.

.ak · 05-03-2015 2:31pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Wud have preferred Walsh. Scrums will be a mess.

Wouldn't be any better with Walsh.

I do like Walsh though, gets a lot of flak, but he's a decent bloke and he'll stop to communicate with the players, you can't ask for more from a ref. Barnes will make a decision and not justify it to the players - not that he has to, just it's something I prefer from a ref.

Wales vs Ireland buildup [MOD WARNING POST #8]

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