Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 07-09-2015 9:40pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

The best thing about Payne playing 13 is that even if someone else steps in next year, they don't have the burden of being the replacement for BOD. For whatever reason, Payne doesn't attract much critique in the media. Had Henshaw, Earls, Cave, Fitzgerald or any other Irish born and developed player... slotted straight in after BOD, there'd be incessant comparrisons.

I think I said it before but Payne and Henshaw have been great as a central pairing when it comes to defending and it seems like that's what Joe wants from them. I don't think we've seen anything notable from them in an attacking sense but then maybe Joe's not looking to use them that way. I don't have a problem with Payne, just by the way, I just always found it interesting that of all the options available to us we've ended up with a FB in there.

dtpc191991 · 07-09-2015 9:45pm

http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-attack-england-world-cup-2315914-Sep2015/

This article would suggest that there are a a few more strings to our attacking game than people expect. Actually if we can fix our accuracy, intensity and a couple of minor positioning errors we can pose a real threat going forward.

I am feeling alot more encouraged after reading this.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 07-09-2015 9:46pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

This makes the decision to play Payne there all the more confusing to me. You've got a number of players actually playing the position week in week out, a couple of guys who have played it in the past and Joe goes and picks a FB to play there. Unless Payne has played centre way back in the day?

Payne had 3 seasons starting in super rugby, 1 as a wing, 1 as a fb, and 1 as a centre. He lost a bit of pace since he came to Ireland (never right again after 1st season injury imo) so wont make it as a wing.

He came to Ireland with the idea of playing centre, then marshall, olding, mccloskey spence (rip) etc all broke through. When he was signed Ulster only really had Wallace and Cave established in the centre but everyone broke througn so Payne was shunted to FB.

typhoony · 07-09-2015 9:52pm

the only issue with Henderson playing in the backrow is that he's not as good at the breakdown as POM, if Healy is fit then we have 3 good turnover experts with Heaslip and O'Brien, and up against a bigger physical french team we are going to need Henderson. with a few players capable of playing FB I'm struggling to understand why Trimble was left out of the squad in the first place, also tommy bowe has looked liked he's lost a yard of pace in the last 12 months

mfceiling · 07-09-2015 9:54pm

If you watch Payne at fb you will know that's his best position. He runs really great lines and just seems to have a second or 2 more to make his decision (always seems to be the correct one as well).
I'd have no fear at putting him in there for Ireland.

alias no.9 · 07-09-2015 9:56pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I think I said it before but Payne and Henshaw have been great as a central pairing when it comes to defending and it seems like that's what Joe wants from them. I don't think we've seen anything notable from them in an attacking sense but then maybe Joe's not looking to use them that way. I don't have a problem with Payne, just by the way, I just always found it interesting that of all the options available to us we've ended up with a FB in there.

Joe could just as easily have went with Payne at 12 / Henshaw at 13, as many were speculating way back when, and Henshaw could have had his every action analysed.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 07-09-2015 9:59pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

Joe could just as easily have went with Payne at 12 / Henshaw at 13, as many were speculating way back when, and Henshaw could have had his every action analysed.

I'm just looking at Henshaw's history there and he too played FB more than centre before Schmidt put him in there.
I'm not complaining about Payne playing there, or Henshaw for that matter, I just always thought it funny that there were other players he could have picked who were already mainly playing centre but he went for the pairing he did.

I suppose the likes of Fitzgerald and Earles being made of paper may have influenced his decision.

total former · 07-09-2015 10:01pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

He came to Ireland with the idea of playing centre, then marshall, olding, mccloskey spence (rip) etc all broke through. When he was signed Ulster only really had Wallace and Cave established in the centre but everyone broke througn so Payne was shunted to FB.

I'm not sure about this. He was always viewed as a full back when he arrived, and most of the guys named above weren't really in the picture when he was signed by Ulster.

aimee1 · 07-09-2015 10:02pm

typhoony wrote: »

the only issue with Henderson playing in the backrow is that he's not as good at the breakdown as POM, if Healy is fit then we have 3 good turnover experts with Heaslip and O'Brien, and up against a bigger physical french team we are going to need Henderson

best, mcgrath are both good in the breakdown,

Trabejo · 07-09-2015 10:25pm

dtpc191991 wrote: »

This article would suggest that there are a a few more strings to our attacking game than people expect. Actually if we can fix our accuracy, intensity and a couple of minor positioning errors we can pose a real threat going forward.

I am feeling alot more encouraged after reading this.

I'm pretty sure any team can pose a threat if they are accurate, intense and positionally perfect in their attacking.

alias no.9 · 07-09-2015 10:52pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I'm just looking at Henshaw's history there and he too played FB more than centre before Schmidt put him in there.
I'm not complaining about Payne playing there, or Henshaw for that matter, I just always thought it funny that there were other players he could have picked who were already mainly playing centre but he went for the pairing he did.

I suppose the likes of Fitzgerald and Earles being made of paper may have influenced his decision.

Don't get me wrong, Payne is doing exactly the job he's being asked to do. I'm also sure he could play a more expansive game if asked to too.

However, I also believe any of the alternative contenders would have been torn to shreds in certain sections of the media for not being early BOD in attack and reborn BOD in defence, something BOD never managed to be all at once. Payne being a Kiwi seems to be presumed to be better than all Irish born contenders.

Payne is nearly 30 so probably won't have that long a tenure as green thirteen. Whoever replaces him will have the space to just fill the outside center jersey rather than having to fill BODs jersey. That's a major pressure of whomever that may be, whether its during this World Cup or the next or any 6 Nations in between.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 07-09-2015 10:58pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

However, I also believe any of the alternative contenders would have been torn to shreds in certain sections of the media for not being early BOD in attack and reborn BOD in defence, something BOD never managed to be all at once. Payne being a Kiwi seems to be presumed to be better than all Irish born contenders.

Payne is nearly 30 so probably won't have that long a tenure as green thirteen. Whoever replaces him will have the space to just fill the outside center jersey rather than having to fill BODs jersey. That's a major pressure of whomever that may be, whether its during this World Cup or the next or any 6 Nations in between.

I wonder if Schmidt sees Payne as a good stopgap, maybe having someone in mind more long term for the position? Problem there is he's not signed on long term so whatever his plan was may not come to pass.

Of course there is the possibility that he really didn't rate any of the other options there and genuinely thinks Payne is the best option.

I think the fact that the changeover from BOD to Payne hasn't drawn any real criticism is because we've been winning. If we'd lost the Autumn tests and had a poor 6 Nations I'm sure things would be different.

The Rape of Lucretia · 07-09-2015 11:00pm

Trimbers was not a bad centre at all actually but was never going to get a sustained run there between injuries and the presence for so long of The Almighty and his side kick John the Baptist beside him.
Trimble can pass well, and has a good awareness of the play around him. Far better on both points than Earlsie for example.
I am surprised it hasnt been tried more.

Payne is a very solid full back, and offers a much better attacking option there than Rob, both counterattacking or as a link man who can straighten the line and pass it on.
Certainly offers a different flavour, certainly more interesting than Jones, but probably not one Joe has any interest in.

Bit concerned about Rob's fitness, and nervous about the idea of Zeebs starting a major game at 15, but that does seem to be the plan if necessary. I would prefer to see Paynser there if it had to happen.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 07-09-2015 11:03pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Bit concerned about Rob's fitness, and nervous about the idea of Zeebs starting a major game at 15, but that does seem to be the plan if necessary. I would prefer to see Paynser there if it had to happen.

I suppose Madigan is an option there too, if necessary. Although a bit like with 10 I'd be fine with Madigan coming on to close out a game at FB but I'm not sure I'd want him starting an important one if Kearney was ruled out. Although he did play most of last season there for Leinster, I think?

The Rape of Lucretia · 07-09-2015 11:05pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I wonder if Schmidt sees Payne as a good stopgap, maybe having someone in mind more long term for the position? Problem there is he's not signed on long term so whatever his plan was may not come to pass.

Of course there is the possibility that he really didn't rate any of the other options there and genuinely thinks Payne is the best option.

I think the fact that the changeover from BOD to Payne hasn't drawn any real criticism is because we've been winning. If we'd lost the Autumn tests and had a poor 6 Nations I'm sure things would be different.

I think Payne fits the bill perfectly for Plan Joe at the moment. He fits the criteria of looking for five full backs. Strong tacking, can kick, compete in the air, solid defensively and good reader of the game. Ideally the couple on the wing would have a bit more speed, but that is a luxury that we dont have at the moment and is not a primary requirement. Real pace, quick off loading hands, side step, etc, are attributes that a not really needed for the game we want to play, so not a negative of Payney isnt strong on them.

The Rape of Lucretia · 07-09-2015 11:07pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I suppose Madigan is an option there too, if necessary. Although a bit like with 10 I'd be fine with Madigan coming on to close out a game at FB but I'm not sure I'd want him starting an important one if Kearney was ruled out. Although he did play most of last season there for Leinster, I think?

I wouldnt trust the Dog either.
Payne is the man for me if Rob is missing, but Joe and I differ on this point.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 07-09-2015 11:10pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I wouldnt trust the Dog either.
Payne is the man for me if Rob is missing, but Joe and I differ on this point.

Mads will probably be the starting 9 by this point anyway so he can't fill in at FB. Or can he?

Trabejo · 07-09-2015 11:10pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Of course there is the possibility that he really didn't rate any of the other options there and genuinely thinks Payne is the best option.

tends to be the case when a player is picked in a position for big games

The Rape of Lucretia · 07-09-2015 11:11pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I suppose Madigan is an option there too, if necessary. Although a bit like with 10 I'd be fine with Madigan coming on to close out a game at FB but I'm not sure I'd want him starting an important one if Kearney was ruled out. Although he did play most of last season there for Leinster, I think?

He didnt. Very rarely and only when badly stuck. Standoff or inside centre predominantly. It only his all round rugby ability had him there, a bit like its getting him the emergency scrummie cover now.

aimee1 · 07-09-2015 11:14pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Mads will probably be the starting 9 by this point anyway so he can't fill in at FB. Or can he?

well the last few years we've opted for a flanker out on the wing so SOB to the left wing and DK to full back?

Trabejo · 07-09-2015 11:18pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

He didnt. Very rarely and only when badly stuck. Standoff or inside centre predominantly. It only his all round rugby ability had him there, a bit like its getting him the emergency scrummie cover now.

This Madigan as a 9 nonsense has to stop. I think it began years ago when he popped a scrummie pass from the base of the scrum in some meaningless Pro 12 game when Reddan was incapacitated and it has spiralled out of control since.

Madigan is not a 9.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 07-09-2015 11:21pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

He didnt. Very rarely and only when badly stuck. Standoff or inside centre predominantly. It only his all round rugby ability had him there, a bit like its getting him the emergency scrummie cover now.

Who was playing 15 for Leinster most of last season then? Rob K was out for a good bit, or was he? I'm questioning everything I think I remember now. :eek:

rrpc · 07-09-2015 11:26pm

Trabejo wrote: »

This Madigan as a 9 nonsense has to stop. I think it began years ago when he popped a scrummie pass from the base of the scrum in some meaningless Pro 12 game when Reddan was incapacitated and it has spiralled out of control since.

Madigan is not a 9.

It started when Joe Schmidt asked him last year.

The Rape of Lucretia · 07-09-2015 11:31pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Who was playing 15 for Leinster most of last season then? Rob K was out for a good bit, or was he? I'm questioning everything I think I remember now. :eek:

Zane and Rob.

Trabejo · 07-09-2015 11:33pm

rrpc wrote: »

It started when Joe Schmidt asked him last year.

It started when I said it started pal. This ridiculous notion of Madigan playing as a 9 has been around for much longer than one year.

rrpc · 07-09-2015 11:44pm

Trabejo wrote: »

It started when I said it started pal. This ridiculous notion of Madigan playing as a 9 has been around for much longer than one year.

I'm not your pal and Madigan has never played as a nine for Leinster or Ireland. POM has a better background as a winger.

Trabejo · 07-09-2015 11:51pm

rrpc wrote: »

I'm not your pal and Madigan has never played as a nine for Leinster or Ireland. POM has a better background as a winger.

Listen pal, my entire point was that he has never played 9 so the consistent discussion about him being used as a 9 is stupid. As I said before and will say again this all started years ago when Reddan was incapacitated for a few minutes and Madigan was used to pass the ball from the base of the rucks.

You've actually defended my position, pal.

Ceadog · 07-09-2015 11:52pm

pal

Squidgy Black · 07-09-2015 11:54pm

I'm not your pal, buddy.

Trabejo · 07-09-2015 11:55pm

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

I'm not your pal, buddy.

I'm not your buddy, mate.

Tompatrick · 07-09-2015 11:56pm

Trabejo wrote: »

This Madigan as a 9 nonsense has to stop. I think it began years ago when he popped a scrummie pass from the base of the scrum in some meaningless Pro 12 game when Reddan was incapacitated and it has spiralled out of control since.

Madigan is not a 9.

He probably does need a run at 9 against the Canadians or Romanians given he is now effective cover for this position after Murray and Reddin.

Trabejo · 08-09-2015 12:02am

Tompatrick wrote: »

He probably does need a run at 9 against the Canadians or Romanians given he is now effective cover for this position after Murray and Reddin.

Where is this coming from, since when is he effective cover? I would say effective cover for Murray and Reddan will be Isaac Boss back in Ireland. I doubt we will see Madigan ever starting 9 or covering 9 on the bench for ireland.

I can't believe I am actually having this debate. Sean O'Brien is more likely to play 12 again than Madigan is to ever start for Ireland at 9.

Stheno · 08-09-2015 12:09am

Trabejo wrote: »

Where is this coming from, since when is he effective cover? I would say effective cover for Murray and Reddan will be Isaac Boss back in Ireland. I doubt we will see Madigan ever starting 9 or covering 9 on the bench for ireland.

I can't believe I am actually having this debate. Sean O'Brien is more likely to play 12 again than Madigan is to ever start for Ireland at 9.

Eh you do realise that Boss is not in the RWC cup squad? It's Murray/Reddan/Madigan? Have you just started posting here to post nonsense?

08-09-2015 12:11am

Trabejo wrote: »

Where is this coming from, since when is he effective cover? I would say effective cover for Murray and Reddan will be Isaac Boss back in Ireland. I doubt we will see Madigan ever starting 9 or covering 9 on the bench for ireland.

I can't believe I am actually having this debate. Sean O'Brien is more likely to play 12 again than Madigan is to ever start for Ireland at 9.

Joe Schmidt, Ireland team head coach, said he is 3rd choice 9. In a press conference. It came from there.

We were all surprised.

Edit: Guy

rrpc · 08-09-2015 12:14am

Trabejo wrote: »

Listen pal, my entire point was that he has never played 9 so the consistent discussion about him being used as a 9 is stupid. As I said before and will say again this all started years ago when Reddan was incapacitated for a few minutes and Madigan was used to pass the ball from the base of the rucks.

You've actually defended my position, pal.

Well pal, I think you've misunderstood me.

What I'm saying, pal is that officially, pal, it's now a real thing and not just an internet wet dream based on a ten minute cameo 'years ago'.

So no, pal. I'm not defending your position...

irishbucsfan · 08-09-2015 12:21am

Hey guy, Joe Schmidt himself said he will cover 9, you should watch the press conference from last Tuesday

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 08-09-2015 12:28am

I'm pretty sure Madigan will cover 9 if we end up in a scenario like the England game where we're out of subs and he's already on the field and there's nobody else there to do it. If Murray or Reddan get seriously injured Boss will get the call. Actually having him at 9 or 21 (?) would be madness.

irishbucsfan · 08-09-2015 12:56am

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Madigan will cover 9 if we end up in a scenario like the England game where we're out of subs and he's already on the field and there's nobody else there to do it. If Murray or Reddan get seriously injured Boss will get the call. Actually having him at 9 or 21 (?) would be madness.

I agree, the only way I think we'll see him named at 21 would be if one of our scrum halves goes down after the deadline for calling up Boss, but we still need a plan in case that happens and that appears to be Joe's.

Trabejo · 08-09-2015 1:29am

If Murray or Reddan get seriously injured Boss will get the call. Actually having him at 9 or 21 (?) would be madness.[/QUOTE]

That's what I'm saying pal.

Trabejo · 08-09-2015 1:30am

If Murray or Reddan get seriously injured Boss will get the call. Actually having him at 9 or 21 (?) would be madness.

That's what I'm saying pal.

irishbucsfan · 08-09-2015 1:34am

Trabejo wrote: »

That's what I'm saying pal.

Unless Murray or Reddan get injured within 48 hours of a match, in which case it will be Madigan.

Trabejo · 08-09-2015 1:47am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Unless Murray or Reddan get injured within 48 hours of a match, in which case it will be Madigan.

Trust me pal it would never come to that. There would be excuses made about faxes not processing or some other such nonsense explaining why the switch wasn't made before deadline day. You will never, and I repeat NEVER, see Ian Madigan playing 9 or covering 21 in a big Irish game.

irishbucsfan · 08-09-2015 2:03am

Trabejo wrote: »

Trust me pal it would never come to that. There would be excuses made about faxes not processing or some other such nonsense explaining why the switch wasn't made before deadline day. You will never, and I repeat NEVER, see Ian Madigan playing 9 or covering 21 in a big Irish game.

Hah, OK whatever you say! :pac:

Trabejo · 08-09-2015 2:12am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Hah, OK whatever you say! :pac:

You've just got to trust me pal. We're all on the same side here. Shoulder to shoulder, in this together. If Schmidt actually considered Madigan as the third choice 9 I would drive Uncle Joe to the mental ward myself.

kuang1 · 08-09-2015 5:25am

I feel a bit left out.

Can I be someone's pal?

Trabejo · 08-09-2015 7:11am

kuang1 wrote: »

I feel a bit left out.

Can I be someone's pal?

I need a few pals after being perm banned from AH for being 'provocative' after posting a pic of my womans double fs (with bra on) in front of an open boards.ie page in the longford thread. Some welcome to the community

rrpc · 08-09-2015 8:38am

Trabejo wrote: »

You've just got to trust me pal. We're all on the same side here. Shoulder to shoulder, in this together. If Schmidt actually considered Madigan as the third choice 9 I would drive Uncle Joe to the mental ward myself.

Well pal, you'd better get the car warmed up because this is what 'Uncle' Joe said:

"Ian Madigan will cover scrum half. It was in the back of our minds. I spoke to Ian about it last season. It's not suddenly. It's something Ian did some work on it off season so he's been quietly preparing himself for that to potentially happen.

"It wasn't what we were going to do. We had discussions with various players to play different positions. We knew we couldn't have total coverage with 31 players. Ian has done individual training. He hasn't trained in the team very much but in the last week he's started to slot in and do a little bit with the team.

"The decision (regarding the scrum halves) was based on minimising risk and while it is a risk in itself, I would like to think it is calculated. and we've
given it as much thought as we could. It allowed us a little more flexibility
further out (in the back-line)."

Buer · 08-09-2015 8:51am

Thornley's gripe with EOS continues to run deep in his article today comparing the warm ups in 2007 to those of 2011. We lost all of our games in 2011 but GT seems to be pretty content with the preparation compared to 2007 when he is in his usual sneering tone towards EOS.

the starting team (aka the 15 “untouchables”), woefully undercooked in terms of cohesion.

they struggled so badly that they were virtually a beaten team by the time they encountered France and Argentina.

Starkly contrasts in terms of how gently he discusses the 4/4 defeats in the 2011 build up:

it is akin to 2011, when Declan Kidney and company juggled their resources for four fitful performances

Ireland found some rhythm against the USA and Russia, before beating Australia and thrashing Italy.

Except we struggled against the USA only crossing the whitewash in the second half, failing to secure a BP and turned it around against Australia in the next game before playing Russia....

awec · 08-09-2015 9:01am

Trabejo wrote: »

I need a few pals after being perm banned from AH for being 'provocative' after posting a pic of my womans double fs (with bra on) in front of an open boards.ie page in the longford thread. Some welcome to the community

Stop being a total dick please. You're about as funny as syphilis, give it up.

wittycynic · 08-09-2015 9:02am

Buer wrote: »

Thornley's gripe with EOS continues to run deep in his article today comparing the warm ups in 2007 to those of 2011. We lost all of our games in 2011 but GT seems to be pretty content with the preparation compared to 2007 when he is in his usual sneering tone towards EOS.

Starkly contrasts in terms of how gently he discusses the 4/4 defeats in the 2011 build up:

Except we struggled against the USA only crossing the whitewash in the second half, failing to secure a BP and turned it around against Australia in the next game before playing Russia....

Thornley is just staying in Kidney's good books so that he can profit upon Kidney's inevitable post-Schmidt return to the Ireland job.

Deccie II: Munster Been Something I Said

Coming to a rugby pitch near you in summer 2017.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

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