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13-05-2017, 23:07   #61
LXFlyer
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Originally Posted by n97 mini View Post
Updated timetables on poles at bus stops would be another immediate improvement. My regular route has timetables that are around 5 years out of date, showing the wrong times and the wrong terminus. They have up to date fares so they're recent prints.

No attention to detail at all...
I think that you will find that they are correct.

Lucan QBC routes have timetables from the terminus, and then also intermediate times from Pearse Street - the stops beyond that point display those times

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey...imetables/66a/
http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/11...l_Dec_2015.pdf (also linked on the timetable page).
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13-05-2017, 23:59   #62
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Originally Posted by Spanish Eyes View Post
Flat fare, no interraction with driver, prepaid tickets, like abroad.

Expand the distances between bus stops.

ORBITAL ROUTES please. The lack thereof is causing much of the gridlock in the city centre.

I live in hope.
Orbital routes are considered heresy, seems the preference is to pretend that dublin can runs routes like its a rail system.

Whoever's on about updating the timetable, why would you do that? the timetables have little to do with whats actually running at a given point. an real time system that actually operates in real time would be a better investment
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14-05-2017, 00:05   #63
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I think that you will find that they are correct.

Lucan QBC routes have timetables from the terminus, and then also intermediate times from Pearse Street - the stops beyond that point display those times

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey...imetables/66a/
http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/11...l_Dec_2015.pdf (also linked on the timetable page).
Why mislead customers into thinking the route starts at Pearse St (historically it started outside Trinity), and also have a printed timetable different from the online timetable.

From experience the time they supposedly leave Pearse St is the time they're at Grattan Bridge. I got on the "22.40" tonight at 22.38 at the Workman's.

Last edited by n97 mini; 14-05-2017 at 00:24.
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14-05-2017, 00:21   #64
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Nonsense. Everybody wants the bus stop at their door but nobody wants the bus stopping every 300m. It just doesn't work.

It's long overdue that the network be redrawn from scratch for the city that exists today. People will have to accept that to deliver a system that works effectively, we need an actual network that is designed around changing bus (or mode).

At major interchanges bus stations should be built that enable changing bus without stepping I to the rain.

i believe that as the people use it, they are entitled to have a say on it's operations. an individual must not expect to get everything or even anything they might want, but they do have a right to be consulted on their services. it's reasonable in a democratic society. nothing stopping the relevant people from implementing as you suggest but there is a duty to consult the people and that does have to continue. people also must engage with the process however.
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14-05-2017, 00:24   #65
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What needs to happen with this review is examining how to reduce our car dependence. For example, lets look at the M50. It is exceeding boom levels and is regularly an impromptu car park. While this is largely due to accidents, it is also the result of people opting for the car because the public transport alternative is either far more time consuming or non-existent.

In my case, I am doing a round trip from Dalkey to Citywest Monday to Friday because it is 30 minutes by car each way versus 2 hours per direction by DART and Luas. Now, if there was a public transport alternative which took an hour door-to-door, I might consider it. Sadly, the lack there of as a result of an equal lack of will power prolongs my dependence on the car.

Unfortunately, many of the bus journeys exceed an hour in length because of bus stops in quick succession and meandering through housing estates. As a result, would-be commuters along these routes end up driving to their destination given that it can be done in a fraction of the time. A lot of people might defend the meandering through housing estates because that is where people live. With this logic, why not have train lines operating through housing estates with stations every 100 meters?

The answer to this is, you don't as doing so would be ludicrous. Most housing estates are built next to distributor (or arterial) roads where buses currently operate (or at least should). In my opinion, buses need to behave more like a rapid transit system by using distributor (or arterial) roads and less like a chauffeur service with the current meandering that goes on.

After all, a lot of housing estates are currently being considered either for 30 KM/H speed limits, traffic calming or both which will likely lengthen the bus journeys even further. So, my take on this is that if you want to have traffic calming along roads then don't expect buses or their passengers to be inconvenienced by them.

I've said it numerous times before and I will say it again, speed is one of the crucial factors in public transport planning. So, we should be looking at reducing the length of time it takes to get from A to B to make the bus an attractive alternative to the car. Ergo, current motorists will be able to get to work in a timely manner leading to better punctuality.

For the sake of current regular Dublin Bus users, I hope that this is not another Network Direct Project. All this did was merging routes which in a twist of irony, made them less direct given the higher instances of meandering leading to the nickname Network "They Wrecked". If it is, I expect congestion on the M50 and the city to get exponentially worse.

Given the increasing number of cyclists, it would be a good time for Dublin Bus to retro-fit its current fleet with toe-bars and bike trailers for people who might be cycling part of their way to work. That way, if the nearest bus stop is a good distance away and where the overall journey is difficult to cycle, commuters could cycle to their nearest bus stop and mount their bike on the carrying trailer. This would be a good way of encouraging multi-modal or hybrid journeys!
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14-05-2017, 00:27   #66
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Originally Posted by end of the road View Post
i believe that as the people use it, they are entitled to have a say on it's operations. an individual must not expect to get everything or even anything they might want, but they do have a right to be consulted on their services. it's reasonable in a democratic society. nothing stopping the relevant people from implementing as you suggest but there is a duty to consult the people and that does have to continue. people also must engage with the process however.
A very simple requirement should be bus stops are a minimum of 5 minutes walk apart. I live equidistant from two stops, and it's a one minute walk to both.
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14-05-2017, 01:16   #67
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Originally Posted by patrickbrophy18 View Post
What needs to happen with this review is examining how to reduce our car dependence. For example, lets look at the M50. It is exceeding boom levels and is regularly an impromptu car park. While this is largely due to accidents, it is also the result of people opting for the car because the public transport alternative is either far more time consuming or non-existent.

In my case, I am doing a round trip from Dalkey to Citywest Monday to Friday because it is 30 minutes by car each way versus 2 hours per direction by DART and Luas. Now, if there was a public transport alternative which took an hour door-to-door, I might consider it. Sadly, the lack there of as a result of an equal lack of will power prolongs my dependence on the car.

Unfortunately, many of the bus journeys exceed an hour in length because of bus stops in quick succession and meandering through housing estates. As a result, would-be commuters along these routes end up driving to their destination given that it can be done in a fraction of the time. A lot of people might defend the meandering through housing estates because that is where people live. With this logic, why not have train lines operating through housing estates with stations every 100 meters?

The answer to this is, you don't as doing so would be ludicrous. Most housing estates are built next to distributor (or arterial) roads where buses currently operate (or at least should). In my opinion, buses need to behave more like a rapid transit system by using distributor (or arterial) roads and less like a chauffeur service with the current meandering that goes on.

After all, a lot of housing estates are currently being considered either for 30 KM/H speed limits, traffic calming or both which will likely lengthen the bus journeys even further. So, my take on this is that if you want to have traffic calming along roads then don't expect buses or their passengers to be inconvenienced by them.

I've said it numerous times before and I will say it again, speed is one of the crucial factors in public transport planning. So, we should be looking at reducing the length of time it takes to get from A to B to make the bus an attractive alternative to the car. Ergo, current motorists will be able to get to work in a timely manner leading to better punctuality.

For the sake of current regular Dublin Bus users, I hope that this is not another Network Direct Project. All this did was merging routes which in a twist of irony, made them less direct given the higher instances of meandering leading to the nickname Network "They Wrecked". If it is, I expect congestion on the M50 and the city to get exponentially worse.

Given the increasing number of cyclists, it would be a good time for Dublin Bus to retro-fit its current fleet with toe-bars and bike trailers for people who might be cycling part of their way to work. That way, if the nearest bus stop is a good distance away and where the overall journey is difficult to cycle, commuters could cycle to their nearest bus stop and mount their bike on the carrying trailer. This would be a good way of encouraging multi-modal or hybrid journeys!
To be fair I dont think too many people apart from yourself really want to go from Dalkey to Citywest. I could be wrong mind you. Public should at where a group of people in a particular area want to go and not individuals like yourself. If there there is sufficient demand then it should certainly be considered I hope we have learned our lesson of running riddiculous routes with low demand like the old 86.

Quite a lot of bus routes that take longer than an hour exist not because people want go from terminus to terminus but people make journeys in between the two termini for example the 75 not many really want to go from Dun Laoghaire all the way to Tallaght but rather people want to go from Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum, Dundrum to Tallaght, Stillorgan to Nutgrove, Nutgrove to Firhouse, Dundrum to Deansgrange or Ballinteer to Firhouse.

There isn't really that many bus routes that go into housing estates most veer off the main roads to serve Villages, Shopping Centres, Hospitals etc. rather housing estates.

Some of what Network Direct did made sense unfortunately a lot of the changes proposed had to be scaled back due to local opposition. One of the successes was the 46a having it skip its diversions to serve Monkstown Farm and Stillorgan Village. Sending the 145 to Hueston IMO was a success it gave passengers from Bray and South Dublin better access to Hueston and The Quays.

I dont know if putting bike toebars on its vehicles as it would probably drive drivers crazy, increase dwell times and create a potenial H and S problem. Imagine the following scenario Bike owner fails to secure bike properly, bike falls off rack, bus runs over bike and crashes and a lawsuit follows. A more practical solution would probably be allowing bike owners to board with their bike with a special area on board for storing bikes thats not blocking the wheelchair area I could only see this working off peak. This system has only really been used in North America and never in Europe where PT tends to be of lower quality than Europe. I find this somewhat strange as Europe tends to be more cyclist and PT friendly
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14-05-2017, 01:25   #68
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public consultation is the only acceptible way now and rightly so. we are the users of the service and we are entitled to a say on how our service is operated, and a say we must get. it's the users who will know if the service meets their needs after all.
As someone involved in politics for years let me assure you public consultations are not about consulting the public, they are about pretending you have consulted them so they can't complain later.

The problem, like (most) TD clinics, is, while you do get a few genuine submissions and even the odd shockingly coherent intelligent submission, they also tend to attract the professional moaner brigade like the Richard Boyd Barrets of the world and their cohort, not to mention the classic moaning Liveline caller who will, with a str8 face, when confronted with the fact that a rail line has only a handful of passengers a week counter you with "well I use it"...and thinks this is some kind of devastating point.

I don't mean to sound undemocratic, but there are some things that should be primarily (primarily...PRIMARILY!!!!!!) left to professionals. If you want to have an idea of how disastrously uninformed the average voter is (NOT stupid, uninformed) just look at the Guardians focus group series for the election in the UK, you'll hear things like "i want to vote labour but nothings changing so I'll be voting conservative (the former having been out of power for 7 years, thus not changing anything). You'll hear people say they vote for May because she's dressing better than Corbyn, you'll hear people say they voted remain but are now voting UKIP...it's mental. The IT did one on Irish voters before the last election, they thought we spent I think it was 25% of the budget on overseas aid, they thought we spent billions on refugees and that politicians expenses were one of the main budget items...people haven't a f___king clue, it's not PC to say it but really...they don't.

Sure they know they'd prefer to keep the 45 and all but they are looking at it from their own individual perspective but these decisions should be made with the strategic picture in mind, zoomed out looking at the big picture. I'm not saying they should not be consulted, as I said you do, quite by accident, get a few intelligent submissions at these things (they make up maybe 1% or less though), but we should not put too much weight on them.

Remember, everyone near the Port Tunnel who now praises it whinged and moaned about it, everyone along most of the Luas routes whinged and moaned about the disruption and now they take it 100% for granted to have a Luas.
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14-05-2017, 01:31   #69
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A US based consultancy will redesign our bus system, because yanks are great at public transport and this is a FG lead initiative, cost reduction will be central. The plan will probably result in removing bus lanes and building more central car parks.

Also I note the timeline public consultation to completion inside 12 months, hmm something tells me this was supposed to be done long before the new luas opens.
Keep in mind the US is not one stereotypical red state capitalism on steroids monolith. Plenty of states value good quality public transport like California, NY, Vermont, even individual cities in red states.
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14-05-2017, 01:52   #70
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Originally Posted by Stephen15 View Post
To be fair I dont think too many people apart from yourself really want to go from Dalkey to Citywest. I could be wrong mind you. Public should at where a group of people in a particular area want to go and not individuals like yourself. If there there is sufficient demand then it should certainly be considered I hope we have learned our lesson of running riddiculous routes with low demand like the old 86.
It was merely an example. However, a journey like this wouldn't be non-stop if that is how it came across. It would traverse all the key areas without the type of meandering that plagues the likes of the 75.

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Quite a lot of bus routes that take longer than an hour exist not because people want go from terminus to terminus but people make journeys in between the two termini for example the 75 not many really want to go from Dun Laoghaire all the way to Tallaght but rather people want to go from Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum, Dundrum to Tallaght, Stillorgan to Nutgrove, Nutgrove to Firhouse, Dundrum to Deansgrange or Ballinteer to Firhouse.
From using this particular route the entire way from Dun Laoghaire to Tallaght, it did penetrate quite a few housing estates. This is where the 175 is badly needed so that there are 2 dedicated faster routes than a single convoluted and less direct one. That way, it's more effective and current motorists might be dissuaded from using their cars.

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There isn't really that many bus routes that go into housing estates most veer off the main roads to serve Villages, Shopping Centres, Hospitals etc. rather housing estates.
In this case, a lot of the villages, shopping centers and hospitals are part of or at least en route to the destination from an alignment perspective. Having said that, some hospitals such as Laughlinstown Hospital are built in such a way which gives rise to detours on routes like the 111. In such instances, I think that there could either be mobility scooters (for disabled or mobility impaired patients), shuttle buses to the main road or airport style conveyor belts provided. The intention here would be to relieve buses from having to take detours.

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I dont know if putting bike toebars on its vehicles as it would probably drive drivers crazy, increase dwell times and create a potenial H and S problem.
If implemented correctly, their shouldn't be a H and S Problem nor one for dwell times. There would be if the implementation was sloppy.

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Imagine the following scenario Bike owner fails to secure bike properly, bike falls off rack, bus runs over bike and crashes and a lawsuit follows.
Think of the trailer as a cluster of bike lockers. It wouldn't be a rack like those seen mounted to cars where it would be a lawsuit waiting to happen.

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A more practical solution would probably be allowing bike owners to board with their bike with a special area on board for storing bikes thats not blocking the wheelchair area I could only see this working off peak.
Peak hours are the most crucial time from a travel perspective. Moreover, given the capacity issues of buses due to their finite size, a module such as a bike locker cluster trailer could alleviate this problem.

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This system has only really been used in North America and never in Europe where PT tends to be of lower quality than Europe. I find this somewhat strange as Europe tends to be more cyclist and PT friendly
This is where Ireland could be the best of both worlds!
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14-05-2017, 02:05   #71
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As someone involved in politics for years let me assure you public consultations are not about consulting the public, they are about pretending you have consulted them so they can't complain later.

The problem, like (most) TD clinics, is, while you do get a few genuine submissions and even the odd shockingly coherent intelligent submission, they also tend to attract the professional moaner brigade like the Richard Boyd Barrets of the world and their cohort, not to mention the classic moaning Liveline caller who will, with a str8 face, when confronted with the fact that a rail line has only a handful of passengers a week counter you with "well I use it"...and thinks this is some kind of devastating point.

I don't mean to sound undemocratic, but there are some things that should be primarily (primarily...PRIMARILY!!!!!!) left to professionals. If you want to have an idea of how disastrously uninformed the average voter is (NOT stupid, uninformed) just look at the Guardians focus group series for the election in the UK, you'll hear things like "i want to vote labour but nothings changing so I'll be voting conservative (the former having been out of power for 7 years, thus not changing anything). You'll hear people say they vote for May because she's dressing better than Corbyn, you'll hear people say they voted remain but are now voting UKIP...it's mental. The IT did one on Irish voters before the last election, they thought we spent I think it was 25% of the budget on overseas aid, they thought we spent billions on refugees and that politicians expenses were one of the main budget items...people haven't a f___king clue, it's not PC to say it but really...they don't.

Sure they know they'd prefer to keep the 45 and all but they are looking at it from their own individual perspective but these decisions should be made with the strategic picture in mind, zoomed out looking at the big picture. I'm not saying they should not be consulted, as I said you do, quite by accident, get a few intelligent submissions at these things (they make up maybe 1% or less though), but we should not put too much weight on them.

Remember, everyone near the Port Tunnel who now praises it whinged and moaned about it, everyone along most of the Luas routes whinged and moaned about the disruption and now they take it 100% for granted to have a Luas.

oh i'm well aware of why consultations happen and yes we still have an undemocratic system when it comes to them and outcomes from them. however we have to hope that 1 day we might get actual democracy and those in charge will listen, even if our suggestions genuinely can't be implemented.
professionals don't know whether the service meets one's needs or not, whereas the user does, so they can't simply be left to implement whatever, we all ready have proof of what happens when that route is taken.
i'm well aware how some of the electorate think both here and in the uk and i agree it would make you want to drink yourself into oblivian and as always some fellow irish love to moan whinge and all else sadly it's in their nature and won't change any time soon.
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14-05-2017, 03:15   #72
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Stop frequency can certainly be reviewed. But route coverage is an entirely different matter. Coverage is required in large suburban housing estate areas. Potentially the way to win the war here is buying imp type buses and putting them to work as people carriers from the depths of large estates out to main arteries. In the Ballyfermot / Finglas area I think the portions of the 79 / 40 that would be considered "extraneous" could be served in this fashion.

That's not easy mind. You need to plan in a manner completely different to the way in which the current network operates though and would require integrated ticketing and fare structures that don't currently exist for non Leap Card users (the bulk of the users affected by this particular topic).

But notions of just cutting service like this aren't realistic to be blunt about it.
Are there any of those type of feeder routes that have ever worked? The 56 did not, the proposed 68/69 to Red Cow under Network Direct was thankfully shouted down (69 certainly should never have thought to be a feeder).

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The 40 is far too long for a bus route. It should be split up into separate Northside and Southside routes.
Absolutely. The 13 must be longer and the same split should happen, but I would be astonished if they're touched.
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14-05-2017, 08:45   #73
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Are there any of those type of feeder routes that have ever worked? The 56 did not, the proposed 68/69 to Red Cow under Network Direct was thankfully shouted down
I grew up in Newcastle. The 68 is a slow bus compared to when I was a child, pulling into housing estates in Inchicore and along Monastery Road and following the SCR (it used to go direct from Clondalkin village to the Red Cow along Monastery Road and from there the most direct route into town along the Naas Road, Con Colbert Road, Heuston Station, North Quays, Parliament Street, Dame Street, Fleet Street.). I think people would be far better served by feeding in to Luas as long as the fare structure is changed so people aren't penalised for changing mode/bus.

We need a mesh of routes that are frequent enough to genuinely allow rapid changes. In an ideal world with an arterial/orbital mesh, you should be able to reach the vast majority of destinations with 1 change and most people will continue to the city centre on the arterial routes anyway.

The poster who said routes should as far as possible stick to distributor roads is spot on.
People have to make their own way on foot out to the distributor roads to reach a quality, dependable service.
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14-05-2017, 12:56   #74
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There's some really interesting stuff on the blog of the company brought in to advise on this.
e.g. http://humantransit.org/2015/07/mega...ip-recipe.html

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Services whose purpose is not ridership are called coverage services – or at least I’ve been calling them that for over a decade and the term is catching on. Coverage is an apt term because the result is usually to spread out service over a vast area so that everyone gets a little bit, no matter where they live.
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So you will not begin to make clear transit choices until you are clear, at every moment, about whether you want transit service to have high ridership. To the extent that you do, you need to tell transit agencies to think like businesses, which means deploying the service not where people feel entitled to it, or where they need it badly, but where the maximum ridership will result. On the other hand, if you do want to respond to people’s expectations and needs, you need to carve out an exception to your desire for high ridership, because high ridership is not, in fact, what you’re advocating.
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14-05-2017, 14:05   #75
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As a user of the cursed 18 bus (which goes everywhere in pairs) I would like to see the timetables reviewed. It's just nuts where I live, the buses are like the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse (none for ages and then they all come at once).
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