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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    n97 mini wrote: »
    A simple improvement that could be done right now is have the validator on the right charge the maximum fare from the current location to the end of the route, not the absolute maximum fare. I have noticed when I get the bus (usually one of the 66s) once we get to Heuston Station everyone boarding has to interact with the driver from there on in, as the validator is still charging €2.60 even though there are less than 13 stages left on the route.

    This has to affect every single route.

    Totally agree here...I wonder why some intern has'nt spotted the ease with which this could be done...?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭boobycharlton


    I always assumed it was because the old, crap ticketing machines don't have the capability to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    KD345 wrote: »
    There's an article in today's Irish Times detailing the timeline. Local authority meetings start next month, public consultations then follow, with the plan finalised by the end of 2017. Changes to be implemented in the first six months of 2018.
    Public consultations are going to lead to bus stops every hundred yards and buses going down every back alley.

    We need less public consultation, and more of a dictatorial approach by professionals.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,768 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    hmmm wrote: »
    Public consultations are going to lead to bus stops every hundred yards and buses going down every back alley.

    We need less public consultation, and more of a dictatorial approach by professionals.

    public consultation is the only acceptible way now and rightly so. we are the users of the service and we are entitled to a say on how our service is operated, and a say we must get. it's the users who will know if the service meets their needs after all.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭KD345


    hmmm wrote: »
    Public consultations are going to lead to bus stops every hundred yards and buses going down every back alley.

    We need less public consultation, and more of a dictatorial approach by professionals.

    I think there can be room for both. The bus service is funded by the public and its important communities have a voice in their services.

    I think the difference between this project and Network Direct back in 2010 is that this is not a cost cutting exercise. Although presented as improvements, the public were not fooled by the cuts that came with Network Direct. It was widely reported how the bus fleet was being reduced, and for all the positives that came with Network Direct it was very often overshadowed by routes being cut. I remember protests happening across many parts of the city, and even a "save the 19" street party in Inchicore. Residents in Tolka Valley tied balloons to bus stops when the 83a was introduced after weeks of campaigning to restore a bus service through the estate.

    I understand some people get annoyed when it appears buses take long winding routes to destinations, but the fact is that the service is being used by locals. Not every route needs to be direct. In Finglas, the 40 meanders its way across the housing estates but is always full, on the flipsde the 140 does an excellent job running directly along the Finglas Road.

    I agree with murphaph, getting the fare structure right is crucial. Ideally, any new fare system should be launched when the Luas cross city line opens. There needs to be one fare per journey, regardless of what mode you use or how many connections required.

    I'm looking forward to seeing the plans and improvements. This will probably see the first of the 24 hour routes come into place and also the introduction of new orbital services.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭VG31


    KD345 wrote: »
    I understand some people get annoyed when it appears buses take long winding routes to destinations, but the fact is that the service is being used by locals. Not every route needs to be direct. In Finglas, the 40 meanders its way across the housing estates but is always full, on the flipsde the 140 does an excellent job running directly along the Finglas Road.

    The 140 is a good, reasonably fast direct route but it is not frequent enough. Before the route was changed a few years ago it ran on a 10 min frequency but now it's been cut to a 15-20 min frequency which is ridiculous considering the sheer volume of people that use the route. It needs to be every 5-7 mins in the height of the morning rush-hour rather than 10-15 mins. I cannot get the 140 after 07:30 as all the buses are full.

    The 40 is far too long for a bus route. It should be split up into separate Northside and Southside routes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,149 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    KD345 wrote: »
    There's an article in today's Irish Times detailing the timeline. Local authority meetings start next month, public consultations then follow, with the plan finalised by the end of 2017. Changes to be implemented in the first six months of 2018.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/redesign-of-dublin-bus-network-to-begin-next-month-1.3081356?mode=amp

    A US based consultancy will redesign our bus system, because yanks are great at public transport :rolleyes: and this is a FG lead initiative, cost reduction will be central. The plan will probably result in removing bus lanes and building more central car parks.

    Also I note the timeline public consultation to completion inside 12 months, hmm something tells me this was supposed to be done long before the new luas opens.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Actually you will find that the consultancy was selected following an open tender process and has experience of designing and working on transport briefs throughout the world and not just across America.

    It's also no co-incidence the implementation s planned to happen after the Cross City Luas works are completed because that will have a substantial impact on traffic flow, passenger flows and Dublin Bus routes.

    But lets not have facts get in the way of a good rant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    devnull wrote: »
    It's also no co-incidence the implementation s planned to happen after the Cross City Luas works are completed because that will have a substantial impact on traffic flow, passenger flows and Dublin Bus routes.
    I'm concerned that this will be used as a get-out-of-jail card by transport managers (including the Minister) if the LUAS turns into a disaster for bus users. It will be very convenient to deflect criticism by saying there is a review underway.

    I don't understand the timing of this at all. This should have been done before the LUAS implementation, or after we knew the impact - not during.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    public consultation is the only acceptible way now and rightly so. we are the users of the service and we are entitled to a say on how our service is operated, and a say we must get. it's the users who will know if the service meets their needs after all.
    Public consultations tend to attract the usual busybodies with lots of time on their hands. They tend to attract politicians who are eager to pack as many services as possible into their local areas. They don't much care if the bus takes 2 hours to get from the city centre to the terminus, as long as someone can walk out their front door to get on a bus and pick up their pension once a week.

    Consultations don't tend to attract younger people, or people who work during the day - ironically some of the key users of buses.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,149 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    devnull wrote: »
    Actually you will find that the consultancy was selected following an open tender process and has experience of designing and working on transport briefs throughout the world and not just across America.

    It's also no co-incidence the implementation s planned to happen after the Cross City Luas works are completed because that will have a substantial impact on traffic flow, passenger flows and Dublin Bus routes.

    But lets not have facts get in the way of a good rant.

    I remain sceptical, yes things will change after BXD and there is sufficient data available to model that change and design a new bus system around that. Waiting until after the fact to do a review just smacks of a little last-minute syndrome that's endemic in Irish officialdom.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,199 ✭✭✭markpb


    KD345 wrote: »
    Changes to be implemented in the first six months of 2016

    That's hilarious. How long did it take to get Network Direct past the unions? They'll be lucky to get agreement that there should even be any changes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,768 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    hmmm wrote: »
    Public consultations tend to attract the usual busybodies with lots of time on their hands. They tend to attract politicians who are eager to pack as many services as possible into their local areas. They don't much care if the bus takes 2 hours to get from the city centre to the terminus, as long as someone can walk out their front door to get on a bus and pick up their pension once a week.

    that's democracy for you. as the people own and use the dublin bus service, we are entitled to a say on how it operates via a public consultation. the authorities have a democratic duty to take our views on board, even if our suggestions can't be implemented. people who know nothing of whether the service meets the people's needs have been the main reason why our transport system is nothing near what it could be. even currently i'm not sure how much our views are taken on board.
    hmmm wrote: »
    Consultations don't tend to attract younger people, or people who work during the day - ironically some of the key users of buses.

    according to who? if people don't take part in a democratic process that is their choice but they can't be surprised then when they won't have their needs in terms of service provision met.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,802 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Flat fare, no interraction with driver, prepaid tickets, like abroad.

    Expand the distances between bus stops.

    ORBITAL ROUTES please. The lack thereof is causing much of the gridlock in the city centre.

    I live in hope.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,768 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.

    it actually is very much everything to do with unions if there could be potential for any proposed changes to effect the members negatively.
    in saying that, i would agree staff currently have nothing to be consulted on as no specifics have been proposed.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.

    This is the crux of many of the problems with public transport in this country.

    Too much interference and people putting their own agendas over the bigger picture, you're seeing it with the car park owners dictating the way our roads are used and who gets priority, you see it with unions demanding to be consulted on changes to how the bus service is managed, you see it with politicians also interfering in order to win votes in their area even if it leads to a far worse service for a higher number of people.

    The trouble is in reality if you try and please everyone you end up pleasing nobody, which is one of the reasons that the network is the way it is at the moment, it's trying to be everything to all people and give everyone what they want, which means what you end up with is the mess we have at present.

    There's an excellent article from around 5 years ago on the same thing that says it well:
    https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2012/10/confusing-and-nonsensical-grandeur-dublin-transport/3657/
    A greater problem might be the city's transit history: the local bus system is so engrained in the culture that people fear losing a "direct" connection to the city center — even though the BRT network that could replace the local buses would get them there more quickly.

    The likes of O'Leary couldn't care less about the public service element of the jobs that their members do. They simply care about doing whatever is best for their members, ironically spending their whole time moaning about management not managing properly, whilst the whole time not allowing management to manage because everything has to be approved by them first and saying that they should be consulted.

    This is fundamentally why the public and semi-state sector is flawed in Ireland, it was intended to be set-up to serve the public first and foremost but is not effective in doing so because the Public Sector unions believe that they should be consulted on every single change that is made well before the good of the public is considered, which is against the whole idea of a public sector company which is set-up to avoid vested interests. This is something that does not happen in the likes of Germany where the public is First and last.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    it actually is very much everything to do with unions if there could be potential for any proposed changes to effect the members negatively.

    It's a public service, the public must come first, that is the whole idea of a public company, ahead of the vested interests of private gain and other parties* as the unions have been happily stating over and over again after the last number of months.

    * Unless it's them, in which case it's perfectly allowed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,768 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    devnull wrote: »
    The likes of O'Leary couldn't care less about the public service element of the jobs that their members do. They simply care about doing whatever is best for their members, ironically spending their whole time moaning about management not managing properly, whilst the whole time not allowing management to manage because everything has to be approved by them first and saying that they should be consulted.

    but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.

    So tell me how are route changes going to effect workers and t+c's.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,529 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.

    Do you think the interests of a private group of people should come before the public when it comes to the provision of a public transport system for the state?

    Or do you think that a public transport system should be run for the benefit of the public first and foremost?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,174 ✭✭✭KD345


    but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.

    Can you explain that more in the context of these plans? I don't understand how rerouting some buses would affect members of NBRU in a negative way. If there were planned redundancies I could understand, but if anything, these changes may protect the jobs of his members into the future.

    I actually agree bus drivers should have an input into any changes. They probably know the city and the bus users better than anyone and could be really valuable in devising plans. But I would see this as a positive rather than a union looking after the interests of their members.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    So tell me how are route changes going to effect workers and t+c's.
    As a driver I personally could not give a hoot about route changes as long as the bus fits, I get breaks on time and there is a place to use a toilet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,768 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    So tell me how are route changes going to effect workers and t+c's.

    ask the union leaders. i'm sure they will tell you if and how the changes would negatively effect the workers should they do, when the changes are known.
    devnull wrote: »
    Do you think the interests of a private group of people should come before the public when it comes to the provision of a public transport system for the state?

    Or do you think that a public transport system should be run for the benefit of the public first and foremost?

    what has that got to do with what i said? you all ready know the answer to the question. the service must benefit the user. the unions still have to look after their members interests.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,002 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    public consultation is the only acceptible way now and rightly so. we are the users of the service and we are entitled to a say on how our service is operated, and a say we must get. it's the users who will know if the service meets their needs after all.
    Nonsense. Everybody wants the bus stop at their door but nobody wants the bus stopping every 300m. It just doesn't work.

    It's long overdue that the network be redrawn from scratch for the city that exists today. People will have to accept that to deliver a system that works effectively, we need an actual network that is designed around changing bus (or mode).

    At major interchanges bus stations should be built that enable changing bus without stepping I to the rain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,244 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I think this news from the NTA sounds very encouraging.

    If they were to radically change the Dublin Bus network by aiming to run 7 days a week; they would have to make changes to current arrangements regarding bus services not running on Sundays & Bank Holidays/Public Holidays. I live along Newtownpark Avenue in Blackrock. The local bus service to Blackrock village the 114 from Ticknock in it's many variations has not run a Sunday service to this area for 30 years. It currently serves a total of 2 Luas stops in Sandyford & Stillorgan Luas stop nearby it's own bus stops. I suppose that if the 114 was changed to an entirely new route; it would mean that it will have to include a Sunday service to it's timetable which would bring a lot of good to the purpose of the route.

    If major wholesale changes are around for the network from next year; the route could possibly be scrapped to make way for a new route if that was necessary.

    The 7B & 7D that run along the Fleurville & Benamore Road in Newtownpark Avenue, even though they are peak service routes, has the same problem in not running on the weekends or the Bank Holidays.

    The 111 was recently changed last year to include connections to connect with the DART in Dalkey, Glenageary, Sandycove & Glasthule & Dun Laoghaire Station all the way to the Luas Terminus in Bride's Glen. It also has a link to St Columcille's Hospital in Loughlinstown and still it has no Sunday service since it received it's new route & timetable which is a crying shame. If Dublin Bus & the NTA are serious about including services along major Luas corridors when Luas CC opens; they would need to have routes run daily services along them to address needs from Luas passengers.

    Dublin Bus would need to modernize arrangements to include Sunday & Bank Holiday timetables for routes which currently do not run services on these days to cater for connecting services like the DART & Luas. They would also need to address changes to arrangements & current demands for routes that solely run at peak times.

    Dublin Bus would also probably need to address what new route changes are necessary to the North Wicklow area including Bray.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,069 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    hmmm wrote: »
    Public consultations are going to lead to bus stops every hundred yards and buses going down every back alley.

    We need less public consultation, and more of a dictatorial approach by professionals.

    Here's part of Jarrett Walker's take on it... They seem to be about more than box ticking...
    We?ve all heard the cynical responses to public outreach:

    ?They?ve already made their decision. This outreach is just for show.?
    ?They?re not answering our questions.?
    ?Why are the meetings way over there, at a time when I can?t get to them??
    ?I don?t like any of these alternatives!?

    Still, great planning can?t move forward without effective engagement with the public and stakeholders. Key players who have major influence over a project must feel involved in a way that respects their influence. Meanwhile, the largest possible public must be engaged in substantive, two-way conversation.

    Great outreach isn?t a public meeting where everyone testifies for five minutes and then goes home, or writes online comments and gets nothing back but an automated thank-you. It?s a two-way engagement in which the participants are heard but also educated about the real choices that are before the community, and encouraged to think about different perspectives on the question, not just the one they came in with.

    Jarrett Walker has been innovating on public outreach for over a decade, designing distinctive outreach approaches for each problem while pioneering new techniques. His theatre background also makes him attentive to crucial issues of room layout, furnishing, lighting, and so on, which can have profound impacts on the proceedings.

    The keys to his approach are to:

    Encourage citizens to discuss the issue with each other, not just with officials. Citizens at round tables talking with each other can explore their disagreements in intimate discussion, and come away better understanding the range of views that the agency is hearing. They can also begin probing, on their own, possible paths to consensus.

    Engage participants in solving the real problem. Avoid presenting the issue as ?Here is our proposal, what do you think?? Instead, construct interactive exercises in which the participants can work on the problem themselves, testing their own ideas. Jarrett is especially engaged in the development of online tools of this type, as well as meeting techniques.

    Present multiple alternatives designed to illustrate the real issue. When doing network designs and similar transit plans, Jarrett often recommends developing multiple alternatives that are carefully sculpted to draw public discussion to a difficult policy issue and build understanding of it.

    An example of the last item is the tradeoff between planning for ridership and planning for coverage or social service outcomes, the subject of Chapter 10 of Human Transit and of his Journal of Transport Geography paper, ?Purpose driven public transport: creating a clear conversation about public transport goals.?

    Ridership goals (?maximize ridership? or ?minimize subsidy/passenger?) are inevitably in tension with Coverage goals (?respond to social service needs,? or ?ensure that __% of population/jobs are within __m walk of a transit stop?). Few policymakers, and even fewer citizens, have been asked to think clearly about the choice. Jarrett often recommends developing multiple network scenarios ? even if not credibly proposed for implementation ? simply for the purpose of illustrating this tradeoff and building understanding of it.

    MORE: http://jarrettwalker.com/consulting-services/outreach/

    I don't know much about them until I heard Walker on the Strong Towns podcast recently.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    What annoys about these public consultations is its usually a vocal majority ruining it for a silent majority. These people who get inolved are usually the kind who think Dublin Bus is perfect because it goes outside their door they dont complain about how things are currently they only complain when they try to change things for the better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Updated timetables on poles at bus stops would be another immediate improvement. My regular route has timetables that are around 5 years out of date, showing the wrong times and the wrong terminus. They have up to date fares so they're recent prints.

    No attention to detail at all...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,313 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Updated timetables on poles at bus stops would be another immediate improvement. My regular route has timetables that are around 5 years out of date, showing the wrong times and the wrong terminus. They have up to date fares so they're recent prints.

    No attention to detail at all...

    I think that you will find that they are correct.

    Lucan QBC routes have timetables from the terminus, and then also intermediate times from Pearse Street - the stops beyond that point display those times

    http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/66a/
    http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/11979/66a_(2)_from_pearse_st_towards_leixlip_captains_hill_Dec_2015.pdf (also linked on the timetable page).


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