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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    In to Lucan and Chapelizod for most buses. Even X services piss around


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    What meandering is there on the Lucan QBC?

    66/a/b and 67 take the scenic route from LV in. I occasionally hop off my bus and onto a 25a or b if there's one due when we get to Woodies in Lucan as they run straight in the Chapelizod bypass. Mind you since they got rid of the T90 I don't do it so much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Unless there is time based ticketing with no penalty for taking a second trip, and the feeder routes are high frequency, then there is absolutely no point in doing g this.

    Reform of funding and ticketing is absolutely critical. People will not be prepared to pay twice for a trip they can do on a single fare currently.

    What meandering is there on the Lucan QBC?

    Unless there is change then there will be no change? Obvously.:rolleyes: This is obviously a change to take into consideration a new fare structure should it arise!

    You have an awful habit. Sometimes people post here with things like what I said above. It does not mean they are being posted in isolation of other required changes to make them work. It's a case of simplicity of posting. Surely you realise that? Or must every post on any PT subject include ALL solutions and variables?

    There is no need to be so highly strung in response.

    Meandering includes the likes of Foxborough for EVERY bus. Simple things like removing that diversion for EVERY bus through that part of Lucan would improve journey times no end on affected buses and allow people in Willsbrook to actually get a bus on time some mornings.

    Just one example off the top of my head. Not to mention the Chapo sitch on the 66/67.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    n97 mini wrote: »
    66/a/b and 67 take the scenic route from LV in. I occasionally hop off my bus and onto a 25a or b if there's one due when we get to Woodies in Lucan as they run straight in the Chapelizod bypass. Mind you since they got rid of the T90 I don't do it so much.

    Come on - it takes 5 minutes maximum more to go via Chapelizod during the day - and much of the time the buses reach the Quays at the same time. Also, it's hardly meandering as it is mainly in a straight line. Let's not go OTT about it.

    At peak times the 66X and 67X operate to and from Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth along the Chapelizod bypass.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Mind you since they got rid of the T90 I don't do it so much.

    Slightly off topic but now that you mention it. I sometimes that instead of introducing the leap card they should have brought in a system of T90 tickets valid across Bus, Dart and Luas at a maybe say €2 a ticket or €10 for a book of 10. I know a number of cities have that system and I believe it facilitate inter modal journeys better.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    But that did ultimately go through according to the plan - the 4 was extended, the 63 serves the local area, and the 46a takes the direct route.

    It did. But you remember the attempted political interference to stop the change? DO you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Come on - it takes 5 minutes maximum more to go via Chapelizod during the day - and much of the time the buses reach the Quays at the same time. Also, it's hardly meandering as it is mainly in a straight line. Let's not go OTT about it.

    At peak times the 66X and 67X operate to and from Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth along the Chapelizod bypass.

    So you're saying it takes 5min max at rush hour in both directions to make that journey?

    Or maybe at 11am? Whgen less traffic is about?

    If there was that negligible difference why bypass Chapo at all?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Unless there is change then there will be no change? Obvously.:rolleyes: This is obviously a change to take into consideration a new fare structure should it arise!

    You have an awful habit. Sometimes people post here with things like what I said above. It does not mean they are being posted in isolation of other required changes to make them work. It's a case of simplicity of posting. Surely you realise that? Or must every post on any PT subject include ALL solutions and variables?

    There is no need to be so highly strung in response.

    Meandering includes the likes of Foxborough for EVERY bus. Simple things like removing that diversion for EVERY bus through that part of Lucan would improve journey times no end on affected buses and allow people in Willsbrook to actually get a bus on time some mornings.

    Just one example off the top of my head. Not to mention the Chapo sitch on the 66/67.

    The reason I posted my comment re fares and frequency is that is that we do not have a good track record of implementing changes such as that - in fact it has been atrocious. Most feeder routes that have been tried over the years have had terrible frequencies that would mean people waiting for ages, and having to pay twice.

    I wasn't aiming it particularly at you - I was making a general comment.

    Don't take it so personally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    So you're saying it takes 5min max at rush hour in both directions to make that journey?

    Or maybe at 11am? Whgen less traffic is about?

    If there was that negligible difference why bypass Chapo at all?

    At rush hour there are Xpressos - most people from Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth use them at those times.

    Off-peak and going against peak traffic flow the difference between using the bypass and going via Chapelizod is most definitely 5 minutes - I commuted for almost four years on that corridor against peak flow.

    There is also a reasonable traffic flow between Chapelizod and Lucan, Leixlip, Maynooth and Celbridge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The reason I posted my comment re fares and frequency is that is that we do not have a good track record of implementing changes such as that - in fact it has been atrocious. Most feeder routes that have been tried over the years have had terrible frequencies that would mean people waiting for ages, and having to pay twice.

    I wasn't aiming it particularly at you - I was making a general comment.

    Don't take it so personally.

    You make similar comments all the time. You really need to chill when people stress opinions.

    Yes you are completely correct about what went before but you woudl have to assume that that scenario won't happen again (until it does). Frequent feeder routes with coherent timetabling in the absence of mass-rail is the solution we should be shouting for.

    I concentrate on the Lucan QBC as it's what I know best. But imagine the 37/38/39/70 group of routes if they weren't as brutal as now and instead had feeder routes augmenting a more direct service?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It did. But you remember the attempted political interference to stop the change? DO you?

    I do but it failed! It's hardly a good example of political interference stopping change.

    The more recent shenanigans in Sallynoggin would be better as it resulted in an unholy mess inbound between the 7 and 7A.

    On the other hand I also remember ideas such as restricting the 68 and 69 to Red Cow, remaining at low frequency, and local opposition making it clear that wasn't acceptable - no one could predict what time they needed to leave the city centre on a LUAS to get to Red Cow in time, and they would have to pay twice. Yet that was seen as a good idea!

    Another crazy idea was cutting the 11 in two and dropping half the route - again opposition from passengers and local politicans stopped that daft idea as the route has significant cross-city patronage.

    Public consultation is still important - it raises local issues that consultants can not be aware of - the point is that the response needs to be appropriate.

    They don't always get it right, nor indeed do local activists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    At rush hour there are Xpressos - most people from Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth use them at those times.

    Off-peak and going against peak traffic flow the difference between using the bypass and going via Chapelizod is most definitely 5 minutes - I commuted for almost four years on that corridor against peak flow.

    I'm not buying it. It just can't possibly be that quick. Can't.

    Quick googling gives at least 10min difference ca. 830am of a Wednesday with no rain etc.

    (that 12min journey seems to be a phantom 25B that uses Laurences Hill!!! :D:D:D)

    https://goo.gl/maps/VPa7W3BpZ8m

    I used the journey from the stop at the Palmerstown Topaz Eastbound to the stop on Sarsfield Quay which are the only 2 shared stops between routes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    You make similar comments all the time. You really need to chill when people stress opinions.

    Yes you are completely correct about what went before but you woudl have to assume that that scenario won't happen again (until it does). Frequent feeder routes with coherent timetabling in the absence of mass-rail is the solution we should be shouting for.

    I concentrate on the Lucan QBC as it's what I know best. But imagine the 37/38/39/70 group of routes if they weren't as brutal as now and instead had feeder routes augmenting a more direct service?

    Look don't take it in any way personally.

    But I've observed our public transport for over 30 years and nothing yet has indicated to me that we are going to suddenly get this right.

    We have an appalling track record when it comes to implementing change with regard to the bus network, connections, timetable integration and bus priority.

    The current nonsense that are the plans in the city centre (sending southbound cross-city buses in a loop around D'Olier St, College St and Westmoreland St before going into the Quays and then looping back onto Dame St) only reinforces my cynicism.

    Again I'm not aiming that at you - I am just massively frustrated by the crap that the planners keep spewing out, such as re-routing up to 45 extra buses onto Ormond Quay Upper between 08:00 and 09:00 and no extra bus priority on that section.

    I'll continue to point out issues, which may seem to be the "bleeding obvious" to you, because the planners keep making the same mistakes again and again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I'm not buying it. It just can't possibly be that quick. Can't.

    Quick googling gives at least 10min difference ca. 830am of a Wednesday with no rain etc.

    (that 12min journey seems to be a phantom 25B that uses Laurences Hill!!! :D:D:D)

    https://goo.gl/maps/VPa7W3BpZ8m

    I used the journey from the stop at the Palmerstown Topaz Eastbound to the stop on Sarsfield Quay which are the only 2 shared stops between routes.

    I commuted for four years leaving the city between 07:45 and 08:00 and returning between 17:30 and 20:00 and I can tell you that the time difference was 5 minutes between the two options.

    I'm not making this up for the sake of it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I do but it failed! It's hardly a good example of political interference stopping change.

    I know it isn’t a good example per se, based on your metric. But it is a good example of political interference whipped up by politicians against DB rather than politicians being on DB’s side and trying to make transport better for all in their constituency! I worked in DL at the time and was keenly aware of the lengths that local councillors and TD’s went through to mess it up for votes.
    The more recent shenanigans in Sallynoggin would be better as it resulted in an unholy mess inbound between the 7 and 7A.

    An example of political interference is an example of political interference. It is not a pissing contest. The 7/7A sitch is a joke!!! Agreed!
    On the other hand I also remember ideas such as restricting the 68 and 69 to Red Cow, remaining at low frequency, and local opposition making it clear that wasn't acceptable - no one could predict what time they needed to leave the city centre on a LUAS to get to Red Cow in time, and they would have to pay twice. Yet that was seen as a good idea!

    Short workings and feeders only work with higher frequencies (:P) and that was rightly canned as you said. The 68 and 69 continue to be required as a service for Saggart and Rathcoole and as such should be left alone unless increased in frequency.

    The 69 diversion through Inchicore should be dropped though. It’s mental to be on a bus as it swings into the Bulfin [sic] estate!
    Another crazy idea was cutting the 11 in two and dropping half the route - again opposition from passengers and local politicans stopped that daft idea as the route has significant cross-city patronage.

    Yup!
    Public consultation is still important - it raises local issues that consultants cannot be aware of - the point is that the response needs to be appropriate.

    I’m involved in public consultations professionally and they are very important. ESPECIALLY for local information.

    However, it’s interference that is what kills Dublin’s PT!

    Politician’s jobs’ should be to SELL these projects not to hinder them and as such they should be removed form affecting them outside of the normal use of their roles!
    They don't always get it right, nor indeed do local activists.

    Yup!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well certain politicians raison d'etre seems to be nothing but the policy of saying no sadly and that's a fact of life I fear.

    It's being able to counter them that's key.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    To be fair the 68 (yes not the 69!) does create a new link between the SCR and the Naas Road and that's not necessarily a bad idea.

    But the route has very poor priority and and can take ages around James Hospital. Lack of proper priority kills it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I commuted for four years leaving the city between 07:45 and 08:00 and returning between 17:30 and 20:00 and I can tell you that the time difference was 5 minutes between the two options.

    I'm not making this up for the sake of it.

    I just provided evidence from TODAY (or a comparison of googles data for 830am today)!

    You were going against the flow though!

    Most people make the journey from West to East in the morning and East to West in the evening. This is the argument most people are on about. And clearly the bulk of passenger journeys. Your apparent 5min point is moot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I just provided evidence from TODAY (or a comparison of googles data for 830am today)!

    You were going against the flow though!

    Most people make the journey from West to East in the morning and East to West in the evening. This is the argument most people are on about. And clearly the bulk of passenger journeys. Your apparent 5min point is moot.

    I said off peak and against the flow.

    At peak times the outer areas have Xpresso services using the Chapelizod bypass and most people going there use them - so the issue is minimised.

    I think people are overstating the impact for that very reason.

    I do think that four years' recent personal experience would count for something or do I consign that to the dustbin?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well certain politicians raison d'etre seems to be nothing but the policy of saying no sadly and that's a fact of life I fear.

    It's being able to counter them that's key.

    KISS!

    That's what policy makers and consultants need to do.

    Instead of saying "We are going to stop the 69 going past the red Cow", say "We are going to increase the frequency and lower the journey times of your journey to Dublin City/Tallaght etc"

    No one can argue against tat logic! and a politician that does will be murdered next time at the polls. (or should be)

    It is not a fact of life and we should be showing them up for the shams they are at EVERY opportunity.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    To be fair the 68 (yes not the 69!) does create a new link between the SCR and the Naas Road and that's not necessarily a bad idea.

    But the route has very poor priority and and can take ages around James Hospital. Lack of proper priority kills it.

    Sorry the 68. I've only taken it once in years in both directions. But ya get me!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,921 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I said off peak and against the flow.

    At peak times the outer areas have Xpresso services using the Chapelizod bypass and most people going there use them - so the issue is minimised.

    I think people are overstating the impact for that very reason.

    I do think that four years' recent personal experience would count for something or do I consign that to the dustbin?

    But against the flow is irrelevant when the bulk of journeys are made in the other direction and are the arguments that people on here are making about the routes through Chapo AT PEAK TIMES!

    I've got 16 years experience living in Lucan [village and outerreaches] (with a few dalliances with apartment living in the city centre) as well as a childhood growing up in Ballyfermot. My experience is valid too mon frere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well sadly RBB and his cabal have a certain amount of support - small in number but very effective at causing maximum disruption wherever possible.

    I fear they are a fact of life, as there's no sign yet of them being eliminated at the polls.

    I was trying to be realistic rather than optimistic in that regard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    But against the flow is irrelevant when the bulk of journeys are made in the other direction and are the arguments that people on here are making about the routes through Chapo AT PEAK TIMES!

    I've got 16 years experience living in Lucan [village and outerreaches] (with a few dalliances with apartment living in the city centre) as well as a childhood growing up in Ballyfermot. My experience is valid too mon frere.

    But again, most people from the outer areas use the Xpressos at peak times - the Chapelizod diversion on the standard routes becomes pretty much irrelevant at those times as the Xpressos go via the bypass.

    You keep missing that point. The people using the bus at peak time in the morning through Chapelizod tend to be those actually going to/from points along that section.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Come on - it takes 5 minutes maximum more to go via Chapelizod during the day - and much of the time the buses reach the Quays at the same time. Also, it's hardly meandering as it is mainly in a straight line. Let's not go OTT about it.

    You asked and got an answer you didn't like! At rush hour the 25a/b will beat the 66/67 comfortably between Lucan and the city centre, even going against the flow.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    peak times the 66X and 67X operate to and from Leixlip, Celbridge and Maynooth along the Chapelizod bypass.

    The Xpressos don't run into town at evening rush hour. As for mornings there is only one 66X that serves where I live.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    But again, most people from the outer areas use the Xpressos at peak times - the Chapelizod diversion on the standard routes becomes pretty much irrelevant at those times as the Xpressos go via the bypass.

    You keep missing that point. The people using the bus at peak time in the morning through Chapelizod tend to be those actually going to/from points along that section.

    People use the 66X/67X Xpressos because the standard routes are take too long. They're not using them because they're fast (they're not) they're using them because they're​ not as slow.

    Proof of the pudding is that the 25X is virtually non existent in comparison as the 25a/b are direct.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    n97 mini wrote: »
    People use the 66X/67X Xpressos because the standard routes are take too long. They're not using them because they're fast (they're not) they're using them because they're​ not as slow.

    Proof of the pudding is that the 25X is virtually non existent in comparison as the 25a/b are direct.

    But that is the point of the 66x and 67x at peak times.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    But that is the point of the 66x and 67x at peak times.

    Yes, whereas if the standard routes were more direct like the 25a/b there'd be a lot less need for the Xpressos.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    n97 mini wrote: »
    You asked and got an answer you didn't like! At rush hour the 25a/b will beat the 66/67 comfortably between Lucan and the city centre, even going against the flow.

    The Xpressos don't run into town at evening rush hour. As for mornings there is only one 66X that serves where I live.

    Read all of my posts - point me to where I said that at peak time the difference was 5 minutes. All along I said during the day, off peak and at against peak flow.

    At peak times the 66x and 67x provide faster alternatives to going via Chapelizod - no one is forced to take a bus that goes that way. Now let's be honest, you do have a choice at peak times - you also have the train.

    Going into town in the evening peak the buses going via Chapelizod do not take more than five minutes longer than the 25a/25b via the bypass. I should know - I did that precise trip every day for 4 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,350 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Yes, whereas if the standard routes were more direct like the 25a/b there'd be a lot less need for the Xpressos.

    Something has to go via Chapelizod - how do you propose serving it and Islandbridge, and linking them to the points along the Lucan QBC.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Something has to go via Chapelizod - how do you propose serving it and Islandbridge, and linking them to the points along the Lucan QBC.

    Something, not the entire north Kildare bus service.


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