"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

Lollipop95 · 14-06-2016 12:03pm #1

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-women-need-to-face-facts-about-the-link-between-rape-and-drinking-34794279.html

What do people make of this? Having read the article in full, I actually agree with SOME of the points she makes but I find the RSA comparison absurd. Car accidents ARE accidents, rape is anything BUT. I'm also quite disappointed that Niamh didn't focus on more of the onus being on the man not to rape. But it seems like she's trying to get across in the article that that side has already been discussed and she wants to open up another part of the debate

Wossack · 14-06-2016 12:04pm

dr who?

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 12:06pm

Shocking Drunk people more lightly to come to harm. First I have heard of this.

Hande hoche! · 14-06-2016 12:06pm

I preferred Brendan O’Connor when he was just writing about food in the Sindo.

Story Bud? · 14-06-2016 12:07pm

Ireland's answer to Katie Hopkins.

She's an attention starved excuse for a "journalist".

Best off ignored. As is almost everything printed in that paper.

Jawgap · 14-06-2016 12:09pm

Lollipop95 wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-women-need-to-face-facts-about-the-link-between-rape-and-drinking-34794279.html

What do people make of this? Having read the article in full, I actually agree with SOME of the points she makes but I find the RSA comparison absurd. Car crashes are accidents, rape is anything BUT. I'm also quite disappointed that Niamh didn't focus on more of the onus being on the man not to rape. But it seems like she's trying to get across in the article that that side has already been discussed and she wants to open up another part of the debate

Car crashes are rarely 'accidents'

Digs · 14-06-2016 12:13pm

Even a whiff of suggesting women are responsible due to drink is sending a message that rape is justifiable. It's not, ever.

How about less victim blaming and more just don't rape someone??? Novel idea I know.

She's an awful twit imo.

intheclouds · 14-06-2016 12:13pm

Given that most rapes are carried out by someone known to the victim and no alcohol is involved I can confidently say that she is talking through her hat.

Her stats from the Rotunda hospital are stats on people who suffered injury as a result of rape.

The proper stats are here:
http://www.rcni.ie/wp-content/uploads/RCNI-National-Statistics-2013.pdf

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 12:15pm

intheclouds wrote: »

Given that most rapes are carried out by someone known to the victim and no alcohol is involved I can confidently say that she is talking through her hat.

Yet they say most rapes go unreported so where are your stats ?

Grayson · 14-06-2016 12:15pm

I'll agree that there are stupid things that a person can do that will increase the risk of any crime. We all have to be wary and vigilant to an extent. That doesn't mean that we are to blame when something does happen.

intheclouds · 14-06-2016 12:20pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yet they say most rapes go unreported so where are your stats ?

Sorry I added the link in after.

s4uv3 · 14-06-2016 12:23pm

Drinking to the point of oblivion is a bad idea for anybody, man or woman. Nobody needs to explain all the reasons why.
Now. That's a completely separate issue from the fact that having sex with somebody without their consent is just not ok, no matter how many spins you put on it or excuses you come up with.
I've just finished reading "Asking for it" by Louise O'Neill. It's a frightening read, but well worth it for anybody interested in this topic.

Phoebas · 14-06-2016 12:23pm

Lollipop95 wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-women-need-to-face-facts-about-the-link-between-rape-and-drinking-34794279.html

What do people make of this? Having read the article in full, I actually agree with SOME of the points she makes but I find the RSA comparison absurd. Car crashes are accidents, rape is anything BUT. I'm also quite disappointed that Niamh didn't focus on more of the onus being on the man not to rape. But it seems like she's trying to get across in the article that that side has already been discussed and she wants to open up another part of the debate

The RSA comparison is fair enough. This is advise to people to prevent them from getting into danger.
In the case of the RSA advice, to be aware of your surroundings, to be aware of the dangers on the roads.
In the case of rape, to be aware of that potential danger.

Horan doesn't focus on the onus being on the man not to rape because that's not who this message is for. A woman going out for a night out can't control the traffic on the road or the intentions of a rapist, but she can control how she deals with these dangers.

armaghlad · 14-06-2016 12:26pm

I think it's a good idea for a woman (or man I suppose) to curb excessive drinking in general..

I kinda get the point she is trying to make. Surely an inebriated woman is more of a target to a predator than one that is stone cold sober? Not that I am for one minute victim blaming but it is always good for a person to have their wits about them.

Lollipop95 · 14-06-2016 12:31pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Car crashes are rarely 'accidents'

I forgot about the different meanings, was using the two words interchangably. I will change that to car accidents.

Phoebas · 14-06-2016 12:31pm

Digs wrote: »

How about less victim blaming and more just don't rape someone??? Novel idea I know.

I don't think Niamh Horan is trying to blame the victim at all. She's just giving some practical advise.

When I'm out and about, I'll avoid dark empty laneways and I might cross the road if I spot trouble ahead.
I should be able to walk safely around the city without any fear of attack, but dangers do exist and people should have their wits about them to avoid dangers.

It's all well and good to put the total blame where it belongs - on the perpetrator, but I'd much prefer to avoid the trouble in the first place, even if I have to alter my own, completely innocent, behaviour.

FTA69 · 14-06-2016 12:33pm

Horan is a terrible commentator and is part and parcel of the Indo and its quasi-tabloid clickbait brand of sh*te journalism. Honestly, the minute I see her name at the top of an article I prepare myself for the inevitable deluge of utter crap below it.

On the issue at hand, the blame for rape should lie with the person who decides to commit a rape against a vulnerable person. Being boozed up doesn't make you culpable in any shape or form for being the victim of a terrible crime and comparing a premeditated attack on someone to a road traffic accident is f*cking stupid.

Rape isn't an issue linked to female drunkenness, it's linked to predatory instincts in the minds of some sick or bad people.

meeeeh · 14-06-2016 12:43pm

As soon as I saw title I knew who the author of the article was. Her comparison to RSA has one problem. Drunk person staggering on the road or walking in front of a car is actually breaking the law. The consequences can be dreadful but it's still breaking the law. Victim staggering on a footpath and being led behind the dumpster to be raped is not breaking the law.

I absolutely agree people should drink less and be more responsible but why not have a campaign 'if you don't drink there is less chance you will rape'?

FTA69 · 14-06-2016 12:51pm

meeeeh wrote: »

As soon as I saw title I knew who the author of the article was. Her comparison to RSA has one problem. Drunk person staggering on the road or walking in front of a car is actually breaking the law. The consequences can be dreadful but it's still breaking the law. Victim staggering on a footpath and being led behind the dumpster to be is not breaking the law.

I absolutely agree people should drink less and be more responsible p

I think you'll find people being raped and sexually assaulted is against the law.

14-06-2016 12:54pm

This is clickbait journalism at it's best.

IvyTheTerrible · 14-06-2016 12:54pm

FTA69 wrote: »

I think you'll find people being raped and sexually assaulted is against the law.

I think they meant that if you are drunk and stagger into the road, you're breaking the law, but if you are drunk and raped by someone, you (the rape victim) is not breaking the law.

FTA69 · 14-06-2016 1:01pm

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

I think they meant that if you are drunk and stagger into the road, you're breaking the law, but if you are drunk and raped by someone, you (the rape victim) is not breaking the law.

You're right. Sorry to the person I quoted for jumping the gun.

meeeeh · 14-06-2016 1:06pm

FTA69 wrote: »

You're right. Sorry to the person I quoted for jumping the gun.

No problem. I actually wasn't finished writing the post when I was rudely interrupted to do some work. By mistake I clicked submit on unfinished and badly written post.

swervring · 14-06-2016 1:06pm

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less? No matter what way you try to spin it, the effect of linking alcohol consumption to becoming a victim of rape is clearly placing responsibility on the victim for what has happened to them, and that is simply not acceptable. It is never ever the victim's fault and people should think twice about the impact this type of conversation has on those people who have already been victims - they don't deserve to be made to feel responsible for what has happened to them.

GLaDOS · 14-06-2016 1:14pm

Not surprised to see who the author is.

Phoebas · 14-06-2016 1:16pm

swervring wrote: »

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less?

I've found myself in plenty of dangerous situations over the years that I would have avoided if I hadn't had drink taken.
That doesn't make me in any way responsible for the dangerous situations, but the danger is the same even when someone else is responsible.

I did have a bike robbed once that I left unlocked outside a shop and I was told that I should've been more careful.
And I'm forever being told not to leave valuables in the car in clear view and to double lock the doors in the house to make it more difficult for thieves.

Practical stuff.

blue note · 14-06-2016 1:19pm

I saw the programme and while I don't generally like Niamh Horan I felt she was unfairly vilified by one of the other panelists on it. (she was on the brendan oconnor show recently where this article stemmed from). I think really she is trying to articulate better her argument which was largely lost by Ciara kelly using soundbite arguments and also kind of agreeing with her.

Dr Ciara Kelly was saying that of course she tells her daughter not to get drunk because of what might happen to her because she's a responsible mother (which is what Niamh horan is suggesting - as part of the campaigns advising women on limiting how at risk they are). But she said that telling women to not get drunk is victim blaming and we should focus on the men that commit rape.

I haven't heard anyone suggest that the rapists are not the ones at fault or that the women raped are not victims. I think it's a massive stretch to think that giving that advice (as Dr Ciara Kelly does with her own daughter) is victim blaming. And I think it's downright irresponsible not to give that advice.

I am aware by the way that there are levels of shame associated with rape that do make it different to other crimes, but I still think we should be advising people to make themselves as safe as possible, even if in an ideal world we wouldn't have to.

lazygal · 14-06-2016 1:20pm

These 'take precautions' warnings simply send the message out that someone is going to get raped-so here's how you make sure it isn't you the rapist goes for.

Lollipops23 · 14-06-2016 1:20pm

If a drunk person staggers out into traffic you could argue that it was impossible to not hit them.

Not matter how drunk a person is- it's always possible to not rape them.

The "she was drunk" excuse is an insult to the millions of normal men who avoid raping someone when they're both boozed up.

swervring · 14-06-2016 1:27pm

lazygal wrote: »

These 'take precautions' warnings simply send the message out that someone is going to get raped-so here's how you make sure it isn't you the rapist goes for.

And I agree that this is a valid warning to make, I just think there needs to be some better way of warning people to look out for themselves without there being a possibility of making a victim feel it was their fault.

Two Tone · 14-06-2016 1:32pm

swervring wrote: »

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less?

To be fair, yes. It is the rapist/attacker/robber who is completely at fault, the victim is the victim. However, that doesn't change the fact that it's unwise for people to get wasted drunk and wander off, and to advise avoiding it. Minimising risk is just taking safety precautions.

It's a difficult one to rationalise without sounding a bit contradictory, but ultimately the attacker is the one responsible. To say it's the victim's fault is indefensible, and timing and context are important if you're going to say it's best to exercise safety in future (i.e. Probably best not to say it to someone who has just been attacked - it can wait... Although they probably won't need to be told).

WinnyThePoo · 14-06-2016 1:40pm

Columnist writes shocking article....Clicks inbound.

meeeeh · 14-06-2016 1:40pm

swervring wrote: »

And I agree that this is a valid warning to make, I just think there needs to be some better way of warning people to look out for themselves without there being a possibility of making a victim feel it was their fault.

I don't think that was Lazygal's point. It is more effective to make sure people don't rape than making sure that a particular person won't be raped because they will be just replaced by another victim.

I hate the discussion about drink less and you won't be raped. I was assaulted and reacted way too slowly even just by being very tired and confused. That still doesn't make me responsible for what happened. And this is where the drink argument comes in. We do a lot of things that put us in danger but that doesn't make us responsible for malicious actions of others.

Jayop · 14-06-2016 1:50pm

I honestly don't understand the outrage any time someone says something like be careful not to drink too much on a night out because it could increase the risk of you being raped. It's just good advice. It doesn't for a second blame the victim and it doesn't for a second excuse the rapist. It doesn't justify anything.

The hyper sensitivity to anything other than saying 'men don't rape' is unhelpful and not really good advise to a young girl going out. My daughter will soon be going out age and I'll be advising her on ways to protect herself and not getting hammered will be one of the things I'd advise. I'll be giving my son the same advise when it's time.

Conall Cernach · 14-06-2016 1:57pm

swervring wrote: »

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less? No matter what way you try to spin it, the effect of linking alcohol consumption to becoming a victim of rape is clearly placing responsibility on the victim for what has happened to them, and that is simply not acceptable. It is never ever the victim's fault and people should think twice about the impact this type of conversation has on those people who have already been victims - they don't deserve to be made to feel responsible for what has happened to them.

If you left the keys in your car and it was subsequently stolen I think the Guards would at least raise an eyebrow when you told them. When traveling abroad we are often given advice on avoiding pickpockets or scam artists. This is so that we can behave in a manner that can keep us safer in a world where there are a great many scumbags. Someone who is so drunk that they pass out or is unaware of their surroundings is an easy target for such a scumbag. I think that in trying to prevent these scumbags from committing their reprehensible crimes that it does no harm to inform people of their modus operandi. This should of course be done in a sensitive manner that places absolutely no blame on victims and not in clickbait type articles such as in the OP.

mariaalice · 14-06-2016 1:58pm

Do nobody think it strange that links to articles of certain journalists appear in Boards every now and them.

darkpagandeath · 14-06-2016 1:59pm

Jayop wrote: »

I honestly don't understand the outrage any time someone says something like be careful not to drink too much on a night out because it could increase the risk of you being raped. It's just good advice. It doesn't for a second blame the victim and it doesn't for a second excuse the rapist. It doesn't justify anything.

The hyper sensitivity to anything other than saying 'men don't rape' is unhelpful and not really good advise to a young girl going out. My daughter will soon be going out age and I'll be advising her on ways to protect herself and not getting hammered will be one of the things I'd advise. I'll be giving my son the same advise when it's time.

Get out of here with being sensible. What next don't leave your drink untended.

Winterlong · 14-06-2016 2:05pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Do nobody think it strange that links to articles of certain journalists appear in Boards every now and them.

Well, some so called 'journalists' do have a habit with coming up with total and utter ****e in their articles which makes most people scratch their heads and makes some people start a thread.

The more attention these muppets get the more ****e they come out with. Stop giving them attention folks!

endacl · 14-06-2016 2:08pm

It's actually quite handy seeing the name 'Niamh Horan' at the top of any article. Saves time. You can skip it, knowing you won't miss anything. Of any substance. Whatsoever.

looksee · 14-06-2016 2:15pm

It seems weird to me that people find it necessary to make these kind of recommendations at all. Sure, you have to say to children - if you eat too much chocolate you will get sick, if you touch that hot thing you will hurt yourself', but adults should really not have to be warned about self evident things.

If you get drunk you are creating a risk situation for yourself - men and women can be assaulted, anyone can fall into the road, get lost, trip and hurt themselves. No-one ever warned me about this, it was something I was aware of because it is obvious/common sense. You can choose to 1. not get drunk, 2. get drunk in a safe environment, or 3. get drunk and accept possible consequences. Its like the whole business of warning that a bag of peanuts may contain peanuts, or a take-away coffee contains hot liquid.

Self appointed experts offering this kind of advice are not victim blaming, they are infantising society.

The J Stands for Jay · 14-06-2016 2:24pm

swervring wrote: »

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less?

That's what I was told.

Jayop · 14-06-2016 2:24pm

But clearly people do need to be warned going by the amount of people, men and women that you see every weekend blind drunk. I say there's hardly a man in the country who hasn't got smashed drunk and got a slap on the way home by some chancer who seen him as an easy target.

Irish Guitarist · 14-06-2016 2:25pm

Sometimes people are too busy being offended to actually take some advice. Telling women they shouldn't drink to excess isn't the same as telling them they deserve whatever they get.

The guards advise you to lock your front door to avoid being burgled. There's no point in advising burglars not to rob houses because they're hardly likely to listen. In much the same way rapists aren't going to listen to anyone telling them not to rape so it makes sense to tell their potential victims to be vigilant and to keep their wits about them.

Having said that I only read half the article because it was badly written and annoying.

eviltwin · 14-06-2016 2:40pm

People need to look after themselves. It's not a good idea for anyone to get blind drunk, anything could happen. It still doesn't make a rape any less of a rape. Someone who attacks a vulnerable person is especially heinous.

meeeeh · 14-06-2016 2:43pm

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

The guards advise you to lock your front door to avoid being burgled. There's no point in advising burglars not to rob houses because they're hardly likely to listen. In much the same way rapists aren't going to listen to anyone telling them not to rape so it makes sense to tell their potential victims to be vigilant and to keep their wits about them.

That's just not true. In quite a few cases the defence is that rapist was drunk and made stupid decision or mistake. People who might behave themselves otherwise often become violent and get into the fights or commit other assaults when drunk. So telling them not to drink might be a better option.

conorhal · 14-06-2016 2:44pm

As a college student when I was living at home, without fail as I headed for the door for a night out I'd get the standard, 'now don't drink too much Conorhal, there can be some nasty and violent people out there that pick on defencless individuals and I worry that you could get hurt coming home through town late a night if you don't have your wits about you' speech from my mum. (Which I duly rolled my eyes to and ignored)
It's advice comes from exactly the same place, a worry that a lad alone and three sheets to the wind might get jumped by a lairy bunch of knackbags is a worry to many a parent, and I suppose and it's not an illigitimate concern. Thankfully I never got jumped by a by that bunch of lairy knackbags, but had I, I suspect that as I got kicked in the head and consciousness faded, my mum's sage advice would probably have been ringing in my ears (along with a recommendation to wear clean underwear, which would have doubtless proved immaterial).

mariaalice · 14-06-2016 2:55pm

Why is the article framed with woman need to instead of framed around the culture of heavy drinking in general and how potentially dangerous it is?. Always be wary of articles that start with woman should or woman need to, another item to look out for would be is the journalist themselves referenced more that the article.

We all have critical reasoning skills and they need to be used.

Print media is cut throat, getting you self out there and well know is probably very useful in salary negotiations

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 14-06-2016 3:52pm

It does not matter if a woman is passed out on the street, wearing absolutely nothing, there is NO DEFENCE at all for raping her. She is not responsible for anyone else's actions. When she drinks, it doesn't mean she's fair game to be raped. When she dresses provocatively she is not inviting men to rape her.

If a man has sex with a woman without her consent then he is 100% a rapist and should be treated as such. If at any time after consenting she tells him to stop and he doesn't, he is a rapist.

blue note · 14-06-2016 4:00pm

LexieOnRale wrote: »

It does not matter if a woman is passed out on the street, wearing absolutely nothing, there is NO DEFENCE at all for raping her. She is not responsible for anyone else's actions. When she drinks, it doesn't mean she's fair game to be raped. When she dresses provocatively she is not inviting men to rape her.

If a man has sex with a woman without her consent then he is 100% a rapist and should be treated as such. If at any time after consenting she tells him to stop and he doesn't, he is a rapist.

I don't think I saw a single post that would contradict that.

Lyaiera · 14-06-2016 4:02pm

Making yourself safe anywhere is really important.

Someone who is raped is a victim and in no way responsible for what happened to them.

But there are much better, and more salient reasons to avoid getting extremely drunk, such as falling down stairs, twisting your ankle, losing your phone or bag, withdrawing most of your bank account and heading to the casino, and avoiding getting vomit stuck up your nose.

Maireadio · 14-06-2016 4:06pm

I'm not sure how to take this. I hate victim-blaming but an slightly scary incident that happened to me years ago made me realise that I need to not get so drunk on nights out that I am practically powerless. In this incident, the fact that I was drunk absolutely was a factor in someone attempting to take advantage of me. Of course nobody should be assaulted because they are drunk, but I think it needs to be accepted that some people will take advantage of drunk individuals. Saying it's wrong for it to happen won't stop it happening. I'd rather be safe than right.

By saying the above, I am kind of victim-blaming. I'm very conflicted on this topic.

"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

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