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"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

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    #92
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Digs wrote: »
    Yeah my point went completely over your head.

    I get your point, I'm of the opinion that it's horse ****.

    Telling criminals not to be criminals is a waste of time, its not like they just haven't seen the poster campaign

    You don't want people to be victims then give them the tools not to become one


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    #93
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Reading this thread I can't believe that some people would prefer that we didn't talk about the precautions women can take to protect themselves from rapists just in case that message is misconstrued as blaming the victim.

    You are throwing your sisters under the bus.


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    #94
    scream
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 430 ✭✭scream


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It was Chrissie Hynde. It's total bs. Men don't rape women because they wear revealing clothing. I think we do men a disservice by implying they are little more than animals who can't control themselves. She was gang raped so I doubt her footwear would have made much difference one way or another. It's not being a snowflake whatever the fcuk that is to point that out.

    She was a rape victim, are you? If not stop insulting her experiences with your silly special snowflake crap.


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    #95
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    stoplooklisten wrote: »
    Why not sleep with your house door unlocked? In fact, why have a door at all?

    Having a door on your house is basically instilling an irrational fear and paranoia in people, well, those people who are going to take that crap seriously


    We should all live in cardboard boxes then so we don't increase our risk of our houses being burgled. And we should never leave our cardboard boxes because doing so increases our risk of being raped. It's our responsibility then if anything happens to us because we just weren't being careful enough.


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    #96
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    I watched Niamh Horan on the Cutting Edge last week, she made valid points.

    Dr Ciara Kelly was looking for an argument, when the points Niamh Horan made were also valid for males who go out and drink, as drink does make a person more vulnerable, it doesn't mean if something bad happens that they are to blame, but one can reduce risk to their safety.


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    #97
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    scream wrote: »
    She was a rape victim, are you? If not stop insulting her experiences with your silly special snowflake crap.


    You read that arseways.


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    #98
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Tell me how this doesn't blame the victim in some way?
    Something YOU did most certainly led to YOU being raped.

    So not something the rapist did then? Or maybe that passed out drunk girl may have been raped anyway, if she was sober, by the same passing rapist.

    Are you going argue about the logic of the position or just thats not fair?

    If I come home blind drunk and leave my door wide open then wake up to find my house has been robbed, then guess what? something that I did led to my house being robbed, as opposed to my neighbors. That's not perpetuating burglary culture its acknowledging that my behavior made me a victim. I would rather not be a victim so maybe I should learn from that


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    #99
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    scream wrote: »
    She was a rape victim, are you? If not stop insulting her experiences with your silly special snowflake crap.

    I have no idea what you mean by special snowflake but for the record I have been raped and I now work with victims of rape and sexual abuse so yes, I think what she is saying is rubbish and typical of someone who has not dealt with it. But what do I know?


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    #100
    stoplooklisten
    Registered Users Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    We should all live in cardboard boxes then so we don't increase our risk of our houses being burgled. And we should never leave our cardboard boxes because doing so increases our risk of being raped. It's our responsibility then if anything happens to us because we just weren't being careful enough.

    or, you know, we could just take sensible, common sense precautions, without screaming we're being victimized for doing it

    I never said live in fear.

    Take someone passed out on the side of the road. Are you saying that if they were sober, in their right sense, they would choose to lie down and have a little rest in the same spot?


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    #101
    scream
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 430 ✭✭scream


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    You read that arseways.

    :rolleyes:


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    #102
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Most rapes are carried out by someone known to the victim, usually a partner. So, if we're taking reasonable efforts to avoid being raped, I guess we should never enter a romantic relationship with a man, avoid being alone with our male acquaintances and colleagues, and actually try not to have male friends.

    That'd go down a storm.


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    #103
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Woman victim drinks a lot: it's her fault, she was drunk
    Rapist drinks a lot: it's not his fault, sure he was drunk


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    #104
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,134 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    eviltwin wrote: »
    It was Chrissie Hynde. It's total bs. Men don't rape women because they wear revealing clothing. I think we do men a disservice by implying they are little more than animals who can't control themselves. She was gang raped so I doubt her footwear would have made much difference one way or another. It's not being a snowflake whatever the fcuk that is to point that out.

    The way I interpreted those comments was as someone who was a victim of rape herself, trying to make sense of what happened and regain some control of the situation. If she behaves in a certain way she'll be safe now, right? She needs to deal with those feelings with a professional, it doesn't seem like she has at all. It's not uncommon for victims to think that way but it was very irresponsible of her to come out it publicly like that.


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    #105
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users Posts: 8,134 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Reading this thread I can't believe that some people would prefer that we didn't talk about the precautions women can take to protect themselves from rapists just in case that message is misconstrued as blaming the victim.

    You are throwing your sisters under the bus.

    Sure, we'll just put all the onus on women to "protect themselves" from being raped. We'll never talk about what causes some men to think they are entitled to a persons body if they dress or behave a certain way, and even if they don't. Nope, that's not the real issue at all.


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    #106
    stoplooklisten
    Registered Users Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Sure, we'll just put all the onus on women to "protect themselves" from being raped. We'll never talk about what causes some men to think they are entitled to a persons body if they dress or behave a certain way, and even if they don't. Nope, that's not the real issue at all.

    We can talk about both can we not?


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    #107
    Zen65
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    scream wrote: »
    About a year or so ago some famous woman, I think it may have been Blondie, was reminiscing about being a wild child and what she felt were some of the stupid and dangerous things that she'd done in her youth, anyway she made a comment along the lines of ''if you're gonna go somewhere dangerous wearing fcuk me clothes and get drunk make sure you're wearing shoes you can run in''.

    That was Chrissie Hynde (lead singer of The Pretenders) and it was not great advice, insofar as it was her state of mind (drugged up by her own choice) rather than her clothes which was the issue that made her vulnerable. People vilified her for saying it, understandably, because she actually did make make her point in such a manner as to partially blame herself for the rape. It's easy to miss the fact that her sense of guilt probably stems from the fact that the events she referred to happened in (I think) the 70's when victims of rape were often made feel guilty for a range of reasons which today we would dismiss as nonsense.


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    #108
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Woman victim drinks a lot: it's her fault, she was drunk
    Rapist drinks a lot: it's not his fault, sure he was drunk
    Funnily enough (actually , it's not funny at all), the law provides that a drunk woman may be so awfully drunk, that she cannot know what she is doing, therefore she is a rape victim. Yet even if a man becomes so drunk that he doesn't know she hasn;t consented, he has no available defence.

    A woman being too drunk is effectively grounds for prosecuting, but is not available to an EQUALLY drunk man.

    I'm not being sexist, by the way, we can say the same about two gay men or two lesbians. Both out-of-their-tree drunk, but one being drunk becomes a victim, and the other has no defence of intoxication.

    Basically, the current situation is exactly the opposite of what you are saying. And I think there are serious questions about that policy.


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    #109
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    stoplooklisten wrote: »
    or, you know, we could just take sensible, common sense precautions, without screaming we're being victimized for doing it

    I never said live in fear.


    No matter how many sensible precautions you take, none of those precautions will prevent you from being raped. You can take all the sensible, common sense precautions you want, and when you're raped, someone will backwards rationalise all the sensible, common sense precautions you didn't take, because it's easier to do that in hindsight than it is to have foresight over someone else's thoughts.

    Take someone passed out on the side of the road. Are you saying that if they were sober, in their right sense, they would choose to lie down and have a little rest in the same spot?


    I can't know what anyone else would or wouldn't do, that's the whole point - you can't possibly know what goes through someone else's mind as the reason they would want to rape someone. More people who are sober are raped than people who are ossified drunk, so clearly there's more to it than just alcohol intake!


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    #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Bambi wrote: »
    its acknowledging that my behavior made me a victim. I would rather not be a victim so maybe I should learn from that

    And that's the problem, a victim of rape doesn't make themselves a victim. The rapist makes them a victim.
    You don't make yourself a victim by leaving your door open, the burglar makes you a victim.
    See the difference ?
    You don't make yourself a victim, someone else makes you a victim. And you cannot be blamed for something someone else does.


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    #111
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Funnily enough (actually , it's not funny at all), the law provides that a drunk woman may be so awfully drunk, that she cannot know what she is doing, therefore she is a rape victim. Yet even if a man becomes so drunk that he doesn't know she hasn;t consented, he has no available defence.

    A woman being too drunk is effectively grounds for prosecuting, but is not available to an EQUALLY drunk man.

    I'm not being sexist, by the way, we can say the same about two gay men or two lesbians. Both out-of-their-tree drunk, but one being drunk becomes a victim, and the other has no defence of intoxication.

    Basically, the current situation is exactly the opposite of what you are saying. And I think there are serious questions about that policy.


    And you know it's not that simple at all.


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    #112
    Zen65
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Woman victim drinks a lot: it's her fault, she was drunk
    You're pointing out, correctly, the error of a defence made by those accused of raping somebody. However, the courts have not deemed such a defence to be valid per se, so it's not worthy of our time to entertain such positions.
    The courts do, however, consider that a person who cannot recall whether or not they expressed consent while drunk to be less reliable than those who clearly recall denying consent. That's pretty much common sense too.


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    #113
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Sure, we'll just put all the onus on women to "protect themselves" from being raped. We'll never talk about what causes some men to think they are entitled to a persons body if they dress or behave a certain way, and even if they don't. Nope, that's not the real issue at all.

    Why are you saying this? Niamh Horan didn't go anywhere near saying this. Nor did I.

    If you take any crime you care to think of, there is plenty of advice given about how we can protect ourselves.

    Don't leave your bike unlocked.
    Don't leave valuables in your car.
    Don't go into that dodgy area after dark.
    Put the alarm on.
    Don't engage with junkies on the streets.
    Don't flash a lot of cash when you're on a night out.

    It's in our own best interests to protect ourselves because none of us wants to be a victim.
    Its all well and good to put the responsibility where it belongs, but that's a poor substitute for taking practical steps to keep ourselves safe.


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    #114
    scream
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 430 ✭✭scream


    Zen65 wrote: »
    That was Chrissie Hynde (lead singer of The Pretenders) and it was not great advice, insofar as it was her state of mind (drugged up by her own choice) rather than her clothes which was the issue that made her vulnerable. People vilified her for saying it, understandably, because she actually did make make her point in such a manner as to partially blame herself for the rape. It's easy to miss the fact that her sense of guilt probably stems from the fact that the events she referred to happened in (I think) the 70's when victims of rape were often made feel guilty for a range of reasons which today we would dismiss as nonsense.

    What? She's speaking from experience, her experience of having put herself in a dangerous situation that worked out extremely badly for her. There's a lesson to be learned there and you do a disservice to people if you tell them that they should be able to do as they please without there being potential repercussions for those actions. It would be a wonderful world if everyone was lovely all of the time but this is the real world with plenty of predators and instead of filling people's heads with an attitude of entitlement people should prepare others for the fact that there is no Safe Space in the real world and that they do need to protect themselves.

    I could probably argue the point all day here but the reality is that some posters think we all live in a special little safe bubble where nobody is expected to take any personal responsibility and everything is always somebody else's fault. Rape is never the victims fault.


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    #115
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    scream wrote: »
    What? She's speaking from experience, her experience of having put herself in a dangerous situation that worked out extremely badly for her. There's a lesson to be learned there and you do a disservice to people if you tell them that they should be able to do as they please without there being potential repercussions for those actions. It would be a wonderful world if everyone was lovely all of the time but this is the real world with plenty of predators and instead of filling people's heads with an attitude of entitlement people should prepare others for the fact that there is no Safe Space in the real world and that they do need to protect themselves.

    I could probably argue the point all day here but the reality is that some posters think we all live in a special little safe bubble where nobody is expected to take any personal responsibility and everything is always somebody else's fault. Rape is never the victims fault.

    I really hope that last sentence is not sarcastic. It comes across that way


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    #116
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    scream wrote: »
    What? She's speaking from experience, her experience of having put herself in a dangerous situation that worked out extremely badly for her. There's a lesson to be learned there and you do a disservice to people if you tell them that they should be able to do as they please without there being potential repercussions for those actions. It would be a wonderful world if everyone was lovely all of the time but this is the real world with plenty of predators and instead of filling people's heads with an attitude of entitlement people should prepare others for the fact that there is no Safe Space in the real world and that they do need to protect themselves.

    I could probably argue the point all day here but the reality is that some posters think we all live in a special little safe bubble where nobody is expected to take any personal responsibility and everything is always somebody else's fault. Rape is never the victims fault.

    You're right, rape is never the victims fault. The only thing she is guilty of is poor judgement, guess what we all can be a bit naive at times. That doesn't in anyway make her responsible for the actions of another person and she deserves full sympathy for her ordeal.


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    #117
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    And you know it's not that simple at all.
    In practice, there are hundreds of complicating factors, such as proving lack of consent. But that's common to every non-violent rape, where there's alcohol or not.

    I'm saying that once sexual intercourse and lack of consent (due to intoxication) is proven, you're effectively dealing with a rape

    If a man turns around and says "She didn't say no, and I was to drunk to know she was too drunk to consent) he has no defence.

    He is expected to never get too drunk in case he won't be able to see that another person is too drunk.
    A woman can knowingly go out and get as drunk as she wishes, and (quite rightly) will not be held liable to any extent in law.

    We're not talking about violence here. We're talking about men effectively having to assume responsibility for two drunk people, himself and 'his woman'. I actually find that a bit paternalistic.

    I'm not sure what the better solution is, maybe this is the best of a bad lot. I'm just pointing out an anomalous situation, contrary to what another poster suggested.


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    #118
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    I have no idea how this thread has gone from good advice of looking after yourself in public to ... Your blaming the victim. I have another bit of good advice Don't leave your drink unattended in a bar or club either.


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    #119
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,944 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I have no idea how this thread has gone from good advice of looking after yourself in public to ... Your blaming the victim. I have another bit of good advice Don't leave your drink unattended in a bar or club either.

    this story may have already been mentioned on this thread. apologies if so:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0613/795167-qatar-doha-rape/


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    #120
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    this story may have already been mentioned on this thread. apologies if so:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0613/795167-qatar-doha-rape/

    Aye def a place I would not drink in or goto if I was a woman.


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    #121
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    Zen65 wrote: »
    You're pointing out, correctly, the error of a defence made by those accused of raping somebody. However, the courts have not deemed such a defence to be valid per se, so it's not worthy of our time to entertain such positions.

    Pointing out hypocritical attitudes people hold which are harmful to victims of rape is always worthy of time, particularly as this thread is about same and not legal defences


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