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"Women needs to face facts about the link between rape and drinking"

Lollipop95

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-women-need-to-face-facts-about-the-link-between-rape-and-drinking-34794279.html

What do people make of this? Having read the article in full, I actually agree with SOME of the points she makes but I find the RSA comparison absurd. Car accidents ARE accidents, rape is anything BUT. I'm also quite disappointed that Niamh didn't focus on more of the onus being on the man not to rape. But it seems like she's trying to get across in the article that that side has already been discussed and she wants to open up another part of the debate

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Wossack

dr who?

darkpagandeath

Shocking Drunk people more lightly to come to harm. First I have heard of this.

Hande hoche!

I preferred Brendan O’Connor when he was just writing about food in the Sindo.

Story Bud?

Ireland's answer to Katie Hopkins.

She's an attention starved excuse for a "journalist".

Best off ignored. As is almost everything printed in that paper.

Jawgap

Lollipop95 wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-women-need-to-face-facts-about-the-link-between-rape-and-drinking-34794279.html

What do people make of this? Having read the article in full, I actually agree with SOME of the points she makes but I find the RSA comparison absurd. Car crashes are accidents, rape is anything BUT. I'm also quite disappointed that Niamh didn't focus on more of the onus being on the man not to rape. But it seems like she's trying to get across in the article that that side has already been discussed and she wants to open up another part of the debate

Car crashes are rarely 'accidents'

Digs

Even a whiff of suggesting women are responsible due to drink is sending a message that rape is justifiable. It's not, ever.

How about less victim blaming and more just don't rape someone??? Novel idea I know.

She's an awful twit imo.

intheclouds

Given that most rapes are carried out by someone known to the victim and no alcohol is involved I can confidently say that she is talking through her hat.

Her stats from the Rotunda hospital are stats on people who suffered injury as a result of rape.

The proper stats are here:
http://www.rcni.ie/wp-content/uploads/RCNI-National-Statistics-2013.pdf

darkpagandeath

intheclouds wrote: »

Given that most rapes are carried out by someone known to the victim and no alcohol is involved I can confidently say that she is talking through her hat.

Yet they say most rapes go unreported so where are your stats ?

Grayson

I'll agree that there are stupid things that a person can do that will increase the risk of any crime. We all have to be wary and vigilant to an extent. That doesn't mean that we are to blame when something does happen.

intheclouds

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yet they say most rapes go unreported so where are your stats ?

Sorry I added the link in after.

s4uv3

Drinking to the point of oblivion is a bad idea for anybody, man or woman. Nobody needs to explain all the reasons why.
Now. That's a completely separate issue from the fact that having sex with somebody without their consent is just not ok, no matter how many spins you put on it or excuses you come up with.
I've just finished reading "Asking for it" by Louise O'Neill. It's a frightening read, but well worth it for anybody interested in this topic.

Phoebas

Lollipop95 wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/niamh-horan-women-need-to-face-facts-about-the-link-between-rape-and-drinking-34794279.html

What do people make of this? Having read the article in full, I actually agree with SOME of the points she makes but I find the RSA comparison absurd. Car crashes are accidents, rape is anything BUT. I'm also quite disappointed that Niamh didn't focus on more of the onus being on the man not to rape. But it seems like she's trying to get across in the article that that side has already been discussed and she wants to open up another part of the debate

The RSA comparison is fair enough. This is advise to people to prevent them from getting into danger.
In the case of the RSA advice, to be aware of your surroundings, to be aware of the dangers on the roads.
In the case of rape, to be aware of that potential danger.

Horan doesn't focus on the onus being on the man not to rape because that's not who this message is for. A woman going out for a night out can't control the traffic on the road or the intentions of a rapist, but she can control how she deals with these dangers.

armaghlad

I think it's a good idea for a woman (or man I suppose) to curb excessive drinking in general..

I kinda get the point she is trying to make. Surely an inebriated woman is more of a target to a predator than one that is stone cold sober? Not that I am for one minute victim blaming but it is always good for a person to have their wits about them.

Lollipop95

Jawgap wrote: »

Car crashes are rarely 'accidents'

I forgot about the different meanings, was using the two words interchangably. I will change that to car accidents.

Phoebas

Digs wrote: »

How about less victim blaming and more just don't rape someone??? Novel idea I know.

I don't think Niamh Horan is trying to blame the victim at all. She's just giving some practical advise.

When I'm out and about, I'll avoid dark empty laneways and I might cross the road if I spot trouble ahead.
I should be able to walk safely around the city without any fear of attack, but dangers do exist and people should have their wits about them to avoid dangers.

It's all well and good to put the total blame where it belongs - on the perpetrator, but I'd much prefer to avoid the trouble in the first place, even if I have to alter my own, completely innocent, behaviour.

FTA69

Horan is a terrible commentator and is part and parcel of the Indo and its quasi-tabloid clickbait brand of sh*te journalism. Honestly, the minute I see her name at the top of an article I prepare myself for the inevitable deluge of utter crap below it.

On the issue at hand, the blame for rape should lie with the person who decides to commit a rape against a vulnerable person. Being boozed up doesn't make you culpable in any shape or form for being the victim of a terrible crime and comparing a premeditated attack on someone to a road traffic accident is f*cking stupid.

Rape isn't an issue linked to female drunkenness, it's linked to predatory instincts in the minds of some sick or bad people.

meeeeh

As soon as I saw title I knew who the author of the article was. Her comparison to RSA has one problem. Drunk person staggering on the road or walking in front of a car is actually breaking the law. The consequences can be dreadful but it's still breaking the law. Victim staggering on a footpath and being led behind the dumpster to be raped is not breaking the law.

I absolutely agree people should drink less and be more responsible but why not have a campaign 'if you don't drink there is less chance you will rape'?

FTA69

meeeeh wrote: »

As soon as I saw title I knew who the author of the article was. Her comparison to RSA has one problem. Drunk person staggering on the road or walking in front of a car is actually breaking the law. The consequences can be dreadful but it's still breaking the law. Victim staggering on a footpath and being led behind the dumpster to be is not breaking the law.

I absolutely agree people should drink less and be more responsible p

I think you'll find people being raped and sexually assaulted is against the law.

[Deleted User]

This is clickbait journalism at it's best.

IvyTheTerrible

FTA69 wrote: »

I think you'll find people being raped and sexually assaulted is against the law.

I think they meant that if you are drunk and stagger into the road, you're breaking the law, but if you are drunk and raped by someone, you (the rape victim) is not breaking the law.

FTA69

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

I think they meant that if you are drunk and stagger into the road, you're breaking the law, but if you are drunk and raped by someone, you (the rape victim) is not breaking the law.

You're right. Sorry to the person I quoted for jumping the gun.

meeeeh

FTA69 wrote: »

You're right. Sorry to the person I quoted for jumping the gun.

No problem. I actually wasn't finished writing the post when I was rudely interrupted to do some work. By mistake I clicked submit on unfinished and badly written post.

swervring

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less? No matter what way you try to spin it, the effect of linking alcohol consumption to becoming a victim of rape is clearly placing responsibility on the victim for what has happened to them, and that is simply not acceptable. It is never ever the victim's fault and people should think twice about the impact this type of conversation has on those people who have already been victims - they don't deserve to be made to feel responsible for what has happened to them.

GLaDOS

Not surprised to see who the author is.

Phoebas

swervring wrote: »

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less?

I've found myself in plenty of dangerous situations over the years that I would have avoided if I hadn't had drink taken.
That doesn't make me in any way responsible for the dangerous situations, but the danger is the same even when someone else is responsible.

I did have a bike robbed once that I left unlocked outside a shop and I was told that I should've been more careful.
And I'm forever being told not to leave valuables in the car in clear view and to double lock the doors in the house to make it more difficult for thieves.

Practical stuff.

blue note

I saw the programme and while I don't generally like Niamh Horan I felt she was unfairly vilified by one of the other panelists on it. (she was on the brendan oconnor show recently where this article stemmed from). I think really she is trying to articulate better her argument which was largely lost by Ciara kelly using soundbite arguments and also kind of agreeing with her.

Dr Ciara Kelly was saying that of course she tells her daughter not to get drunk because of what might happen to her because she's a responsible mother (which is what Niamh horan is suggesting - as part of the campaigns advising women on limiting how at risk they are). But she said that telling women to not get drunk is victim blaming and we should focus on the men that commit rape.

I haven't heard anyone suggest that the rapists are not the ones at fault or that the women raped are not victims. I think it's a massive stretch to think that giving that advice (as Dr Ciara Kelly does with her own daughter) is victim blaming. And I think it's downright irresponsible not to give that advice.

I am aware by the way that there are levels of shame associated with rape that do make it different to other crimes, but I still think we should be advising people to make themselves as safe as possible, even if in an ideal world we wouldn't have to.

lazygal

These 'take precautions' warnings simply send the message out that someone is going to get raped-so here's how you make sure it isn't you the rapist goes for.

Lollipops23

If a drunk person staggers out into traffic you could argue that it was impossible to not hit them.

Not matter how drunk a person is- it's always possible to not rape them.

The "she was drunk" excuse is an insult to the millions of normal men who avoid raping someone when they're both boozed up.

swervring

lazygal wrote: »

These 'take precautions' warnings simply send the message out that someone is going to get raped-so here's how you make sure it isn't you the rapist goes for.

And I agree that this is a valid warning to make, I just think there needs to be some better way of warning people to look out for themselves without there being a possibility of making a victim feel it was their fault.

Two Tone

swervring wrote: »

Would someone who was beaten up, or robbed, when they were drunk, be told that they should have drank less?

To be fair, yes. It is the rapist/attacker/robber who is completely at fault, the victim is the victim. However, that doesn't change the fact that it's unwise for people to get wasted drunk and wander off, and to advise avoiding it. Minimising risk is just taking safety precautions.

It's a difficult one to rationalise without sounding a bit contradictory, but ultimately the attacker is the one responsible. To say it's the victim's fault is indefensible, and timing and context are important if you're going to say it's best to exercise safety in future (i.e. Probably best not to say it to someone who has just been attacked - it can wait... Although they probably won't need to be told).