Minimum wage - ten cents increase

LuasSimon · 24-09-2020 7:22pm #1

Reading an article earlier it appears the minimum wage is going up ten cent in the budget from 10.10 Euro to 10.20 Euro .So many people are on minimum wage these days how can any of those workers ever have anything ?

The owner of our local supermarket drives a 201 Landrover yet he pays all his staff minimum wage .
The local AIBP factory manager drives some big BMW jeep yet 95% of staff there are on minimum wage . Something wrong somewhere . We are becoming a nation of minimum wage or close to minimum wage employers to ensure the rich stay rich or even get richer whilst a growing pool of workers many foreigners but often young Irish have nothing at the end of the week .

The Mighty Quinn · 24-09-2020 7:24pm

What should the owners of these places be driving?

Bubbaclaus · 24-09-2020 7:26pm

Anybody that is paid minimum wage for any prolonged period of time mistook a starter job for a career.

PsychoPete · 24-09-2020 7:26pm

You learn to live within your means

SEPT 23 1989 · 24-09-2020 7:29pm

Get a good education or work very hard and you will earn more than ten quid an hour

Seth Brundle · 24-09-2020 7:30pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Reading an article earlier it appears the minimum wage is going up ten cent in the budget from 10.10 Euro to 10.20 Euro .So many people are on minimum wage these days how can any of those workers ever have anything ?

The owner of our local supermarket drives a 201 Landrover yet he pays all his staff minimum wage .
The local AIBP factory manager drives some big BMW jeep yet 95% of staff there are on minimum wage . Something wrong somewhere . We are becoming a nation of minimum wage or close to minimum wage employers to ensure the rich stay rich or even get richer whilst a growing pool of workers many foreigners but often young Irish have nothing at the end of the week .

There's nothing stopping any of the employees from opening their own supermarket or meat processing plant and then buying their own 201 model!
If someone does not want to be on minimum wage then there are plenty of options in terms of upskilling!

Dempo1 · 24-09-2020 7:31pm

"where all in this Together"

Gooey Looey · 24-09-2020 7:31pm

The minimum wage is a terrible idea this country is worse because of it

NickNickleby · 24-09-2020 7:33pm

Completely agree with the thrust of your post. Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever improve. 50 years ago I entered the workforce in a minimum wage dead end job. Minimum wage, dead end jobs still exist. Its unpalatable to describe those jobs in that way, because actual real people do them.

Given my own experience as a youth, I subsequently encouraged my own children to get the best education they can (by this time, thanks to evening classes and hard work, I was now in a much better situation). I told them they could go my route - with definitely risky outcomes - or work hard NOW to ensure their futures. I'm happy to report, it paid off. I think this is the only remedy. In reality, its dog-eat-dog.

edit to say: I'm responding to the OP

Sonics2k · 24-09-2020 7:34pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

The minimum wage is a terrible idea this country is worse because of it

Ah yeah, sure we all know countries that don't have a minimum wage treat their employees much better.

Gooey Looey · 24-09-2020 7:38pm

Sonics2k wrote: »

Ah yeah, sure we all know countries that don't have a minimum wage treat their employees much better.

It costs jobs. I started working at 12 delivering bread every Saturday with my uncle. He's still delivering bread but has no help. The minimum wage cost this job. There are no part time summer jobs for teens and the teens are of the attitude that if a job doesn't pay minimum wage is not worth doing

Fritzbox · 24-09-2020 7:42pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Reading an article earlier it appears the minimum wage is going up ten cent in the budget from 10.10 Euro to 10.20 Euro .So many people are on minimum wage these days how can any of those workers ever have anything ?

The owner of our local supermarket drives a 201 Landrover yet he pays all his staff minimum wage .
The local AIBP factory manager drives some big BMW jeep yet 95% of staff there are on minimum wage . Something wrong somewhere . We are becoming a nation of minimum wage or close to minimum wage employers to ensure the rich stay rich or even get richer whilst a growing pool of workers many foreigners but often young Irish have nothing at the end of the week .

10.20 euro per hour? That's 60 cents better than the minimum wage in Germany. 10.20 € would be a standard wage in many European countries.

Green Mile · 24-09-2020 7:46pm

A respective reply OP, we live under a capitalist system, so if you don’t want to be on minimum wage, you’ll need to do something about it yourself. That’s what’s “wrong somewhere”.

frozenfrozen · 24-09-2020 7:46pm

yes because 700 euro a month on a car is the same as paying 200 people an extra 5 euro an hour or whatever you think they should be earning

gary550 · 24-09-2020 7:50pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Reading an article earlier it appears the minimum wage is going up ten cent in the budget from 10.10 Euro to 10.20 Euro .So many people are on minimum wage these days how can any of those workers ever have anything ?

The owner of our local supermarket drives a 201 Landrover yet he pays all his staff minimum wage .
The local AIBP factory manager drives some big BMW jeep yet 95% of staff there are on minimum wage . Something wrong somewhere . We are becoming a nation of minimum wage or close to minimum wage employers to ensure the rich stay rich or even get richer whilst a growing pool of workers many foreigners but often young Irish have nothing at the end of the week .

I hope the owner of your local supermarket does so well he can buy a Ferrari along with his landrover and really give the abundance of local begrudgers something to talk about.

tastyt · 24-09-2020 7:51pm

I really hate the smug answers of get a better job / education any time these threads crop up.

Sometimes it’s not that easy for people , circumstances etc. Begrudging people an extra 10 cent an hour is a sad reflection on the rat race this country has become

Fritzbox · 24-09-2020 7:52pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

It costs jobs. I started working at 12 delivering bread every Saturday with my uncle. He's still delivering bread but has no help. The minimum wage cost this job. There are no part time summer jobs for teens and the teens are of the attitude that if a job doesn't pay minimum wage is not worth doing

You can pay teenagers a lot less you know:

Since 1 February 2020, the national minimum wage is €10.10 per hour. This does not mean that everyone is automatically entitled to receive this. Young people aged under 18 are only guaranteed up to 70% of the national minimum wage, which is €7.07 per hour.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/starting_work_and_changing_job/young_people_at_work/rights_of_young_workers.html#:~:text=Payment%20of%20wages&text=Since%201%20February%202020%2C%20the,is%20%E2%82%AC7.07%20per%20hour.

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 24-09-2020 7:53pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

It costs jobs. I started working at 12 delivering bread every Saturday with my uncle. He's still delivering bread but has no help. The minimum wage cost this job.

Minimum wage has nothing to do with that... Child exploitation did.

smellyoldboot · 24-09-2020 7:54pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Reading an article earlier it appears the minimum wage is going up ten cent in the budget from 10.10 Euro to 10.20 Euro .So many people are on minimum wage these days how can any of those workers ever have anything ?

The owner of our local supermarket drives a 201 Landrover yet he pays all his staff minimum wage .
The local AIBP factory manager drives some big BMW jeep yet 95% of staff there are on minimum wage . Something wrong somewhere . We are becoming a nation of minimum wage or close to minimum wage employers to ensure the rich stay rich or even get richer whilst a growing pool of workers many foreigners but often young Irish have nothing at the end of the week .

Does stacking shelves or working on a meat line generate enough to warrant payment above €10 an hour? It's not about what you think you deserve or think you are worth. What's the actual value to the business?

Or to look at it another way, If said €10/ hour employee said "Fcuk your wage, I'm off" How quickly and easily could they be replaced for the same or cheaper?

Learn something worthwhile and make yourself valuable if you want to earn a decent living. You have to work for yourself or have an employer over a barrel to the point they'd struggle pretty bad without you to really earn.

Gooey Looey · 24-09-2020 7:57pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

You can pay teenagers a lot less you know:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/starting_work_and_changing_job/young_people_at_work/rights_of_young_workers.html#:~:text=Payment%20of%20wages&text=Since%201%20February%202020%2C%20the,is%20%E2%82%AC7.07%20per%20hour.

Yes, I know that, but at 12 I was doing 12-14 hour days, up at 5 or 6, not home until 4-5pm. You think assisting a bread delivery man is worth paying a teen €70-100 per day?

Gooey Looey · 24-09-2020 8:01pm

Amanda Aggressive Rider wrote: »

Minimum wage has nothing to do with that... Child exploitation did.

It wasn't exploitation, I was happy to work, I enjoyed working and always having money something modern teens don't experience

smellyoldboot · 24-09-2020 8:02pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

It costs jobs. I started working at 12 delivering bread every Saturday with my uncle. He's still delivering bread but has no help. The minimum wage cost this job. There are no part time summer jobs for teens and the teens are of the attitude that if a job doesn't pay minimum wage is not worth doing

This too. I started my first Saturday job in a garage at 13 and got £15 for what was usually a 10 hour day and I was glad to get it. I then improved to £2.50 an hour in a small local shop again glad to have it, my own money as a teenager.

Now they have to be paid what €8 an hour and can only work certain hours etc. Who is going to be bothered when you can pay a full grown adult €2 an hour more and have them work longer hours and have them do more. It's not just jobs, the knock on effect is killing any work ethic in our young people and it shows.

colm_mcm · 24-09-2020 8:03pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Reading an article earlier it appears the minimum wage is going up ten cent in the budget from 10.10 Euro to 10.20 Euro .So many people are on minimum wage these days how can any of those workers ever have anything ?

The owner of our local supermarket drives a 201 Landrover yet he pays all his staff minimum wage .
The local AIBP factory manager drives some big BMW jeep yet 95% of staff there are on minimum wage . Something wrong somewhere . We are becoming a nation of minimum wage or close to minimum wage employers to ensure the rich stay rich or even get richer whilst a growing pool of workers many foreigners but often young Irish have nothing at the end of the week .

Quick version. If you wanna be rich - own a supermarket. Don’t work in a supermarket.

Shocked tbh.

gary550 · 24-09-2020 8:03pm

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Does stacking shelves or working on a meat line generate enough to warrant payment above €10 an hour? It's not about what you think you deserve or think you are worth. What's the actual value to the business?

Or to look at it another way, If said €10/ hour employee said "Fcuk your wage, I'm off" How quickly and easily could they be replaced for the same or cheaper?

Learn something worthwhile and make yourself valuable if you want to earn a decent living. You have to work for yourself or have an employer over a barrel to the point they'd struggle pretty bad without you to really earn.

This is what I think some people forget when they think about employment

If most minimum wage workers asked themselves "could I make the same amount or more money doing exactly what I do now but as a self employed person". 7/10 times the answer is no because they are a small cog in a big wheel and what they do only has value in that particular scenario.

Pedro K · 24-09-2020 8:19pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Anybody that is paid minimum wage for any prolonged period of time mistook a starter job for a career.

That's very unfair on a lot of people. Some people won't have the same opportunities for career progression, career moves, or education as others will have. Some may have taken a low paid job as a "starter" job but then circumstances changed and they had to stay in it.

Not to mention, if everybody treated low paid jobs as starter jobs, we wouldn't have enough people to run the service industry.

We should look at increasing the minimum wage to at least be in line with the cost of living in Ireland these days.

For the record, I have no skin in the game. These changes won't affect me. I'm, quite thankfully, in a pretty well paid job in a skilled field. I still think everyone should get a living wage at the very least.

tuff1 · 24-09-2020 8:26pm

smellyoldboot wrote: »

This too. I started my first Saturday job in a garage at 13 and got £15 for what was usually a 10 hour day and I was glad to get it. I then improved to £2.50 an hour in a small local shop again glad to have it, my own money as a teenager.

Now they have to be paid what €8 an hour and can only work certain hours etc. Who is going to be bothered when you can pay a full grown adult €2 an hour more and have them work longer hours and have them do more. It's not just jobs, the knock on effect is killing any work ethic in our young people and it shows.

What do you mean "it shows"?

Numerous studies have shown that younger generations - Millennials and Gen Z - are working longer hours than any generation before them. Just because they're not down in the coal mines from aged 7 doesn't mean they're lazy, workphobic gremlins :rolleyes:

3d4life · 24-09-2020 8:34pm

tuff1 wrote: »

.......Numerous studies have shown that younger generations - Millennials and Gen Z - are working longer hours than any generation before them. .....

Linkys please

Gooey Looey · 24-09-2020 8:34pm

tuff1 wrote: »

What do you mean "it shows"?

Numerous studies have shown that younger generations - Millennials and Gen Z - are working longer hours than any generation before them. Just because they're not down in the coal mines from aged 7 doesn't mean they're lazy, workphobic gremlins :rolleyes:

Link?

smellyoldboot · 24-09-2020 8:35pm

tuff1 wrote: »

What do you mean "it shows"?

Numerous studies have shown that younger generations - Millennials and Gen Z - are working longer hours than any generation before them. Just because they're not down in the coal mines from aged 7 doesn't mean they're lazy, workphobic gremlins :rolleyes:

I'm an older version of a millennial myself so it's not the best example of "young" we still had the pre tiger, pre Maastricht, old Ireland in my youth.

But from what I see of the youngest, they might be spending longer in work, but half of that is spent ducking and diving, texting/messaging, watchin stuff on phones, waiting to be told what to do.

It's not their fault of course, some of them get their first taste of a workplace at 18 or even later.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-09-2020 8:35pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Anybody that is paid minimum wage for any prolonged period of time mistook a starter job for a career.

This is a very unrealistic view of the world.

1. I dont know if you realized but many people have been let go recently and have to take any job they can.

2. Many are part-time workers supporting themselves while in college or have children.

3. People can have disabilities physical or emotional and would rather do this than be on the dole.

4. Why should we shaft people in starter jobs ?

5. It encourages people to stay on the dole because they are better off.

6. Upskilling education costs .....and to afford them you need...wait for ....a better minimum wage.

tuff1 · 24-09-2020 8:45pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Link?

I mean this is literally a Google search away.

The first two of many -

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hbr.org/amp/2016/08/millennials-are-actually-workaholics-according-to-research

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/millennials-are-actually-having-to-work-harder-than-their-parents-and-why-what-you-earn-in-your-20s-is-so-important_uk_5aafebc1e4b0697dfe193529/

Harvard Business Review and Huffington Post articles

tuff1 · 24-09-2020 8:49pm

smellyoldboot wrote: »

I'm an older version of a millennial myself so it's not the best example of "young" we still had the pre tiger, pre Maastricht, old Ireland in my youth.

But from what I see of the youngest, they might be spending longer in work, but half of that is spent ducking and diving, texting/messaging, watchin stuff on phones, waiting to be told what to do.

It's not their fault of course, some of them get their first taste of a workplace at 18 or even later.

So every 50 year old worker has grinded out results and not wasted a single second of their working life?

Most people finishing school now at 18 will have at least (at least!) 50 years of working life ahead of them, just because they didn't start working at 15 doesn't mean they're completely incapable of picking up a work ethic and building on a career in the following 50 years!

Gooey Looey · 24-09-2020 8:51pm

tuff1 wrote: »

I mean this is literally a Google search away.

The first two of many -

https://www.google.com/amp/s/hbr.org/amp/2016/08/millennials-are-actually-workaholics-according-to-research

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/millennials-are-actually-having-to-work-harder-than-their-parents-and-why-what-you-earn-in-your-20s-is-so-important_uk_5aafebc1e4b0697dfe193529/

Harvard Business Review and Huffington Post articles

None of those are Irish or relevant to this country

tuff1 · 24-09-2020 8:54pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

None of those are Irish or relevant to this country

So in this globalised world of ours, in which Ireland has arguably benefited from more so than any other European country, parallels can't be drawn between Ireland and any other country on the planet, including the UK?.... Ok

Gooey Looey · 24-09-2020 9:05pm

tuff1 wrote: »

So in this globalised world of ours, in which Ireland has arguably benefited from more so than any other European country, parallels can't be drawn between Ireland and any other country on the planet, including the UK?.... Ok

We're not discussing European or even UK minimum wage, the topic is Irish minimum wage

biko · 24-09-2020 9:13pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

Reading an article earlier it appears the minimum wage is going up ten cent in the budget from 10.10 Euro to 10.20 Euro .So many people are on minimum wage these days how can any of those workers ever have anything ?

The owner of our local supermarket drives a 201 Landrover yet he pays all his staff minimum wage .
The local AIBP factory manager drives some big BMW jeep yet 95% of staff there are on minimum wage . Something wrong somewhere . We are becoming a nation of minimum wage or close to minimum wage employers to ensure the rich stay rich or even get richer whilst a growing pool of workers many foreigners but often young Irish have nothing at the end of the week .

What's wrong with your keyboard? Your punctuation isn't working.

tuff1 · 24-09-2020 9:17pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

We're not discussing European or even UK minimum wage, the topic is Irish minimum wage

I agree completely, I was rebutting the young people are lazy comments - which have nothing to do with minimum wage in any country.

Thelonious Monk · 24-09-2020 9:24pm

tastyt wrote: »

I really hate the smug answers of get a better job / education any time these threads crop up.

Sometimes it’s not that easy for people , circumstances etc. Begrudging people an extra 10 cent an hour is a sad reflection on the rat race this country has become

Also, as we have seen during COVID, supermarket workers and food processors etc are more important to society than Fintan or Sorcha who tweets all day for a PR company on 90k a year.

Edgware · 24-09-2020 9:27pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Also, as we have seen during COVID, supermarket workers and food processors etc are more important to society than Fintan or Sorcha who tweets all day for a PR company on 90k a year.

But didnt we clap every evening for them, except when Eastenders was on

Darc19 · 24-09-2020 9:45pm

Personally as someone who employs people, the minimum wage is not currently fit for purpose.

I think it should apply for a maximum of five years of a person's work life or three years if in the same company.

It's self defeating too as people tend not to give anything other than a basic effort if paid minimum wage.

It needs an overhaul, but not sure what the answer is.

BTW, our starting level for part time / entry position is €11 and anyone here over 2 years is on €12-€14 even if they are students and we find we tend to keep them which saves money in the long term.

Plumbthedepths · 24-09-2020 9:47pm

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Yes, I know that, but at 12 I was doing 12-14 hour days, up at 5 or 6, not home until 4-5pm. You think assisting a bread delivery man is worth paying a teen €70-100 per day?

I can smell something, can't quite tell what it is.

rob316 · 24-09-2020 9:54pm

I read an article earlier and I thought it was 10 percent increase and I was like oh that's a good increase. 10c? **** sake why bother. Our business pays 11 an hour we always keep it 1 euro above minimum you tend to attract better staff and they don't quit so easy.

Alejandro68 · 24-09-2020 10:14pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Anybody that is paid minimum wage for any prolonged period of time mistook a starter job for a career.

That is not entirely true. Most people not native here who can't find jobs in their fields, have to take up minimum paying jobs to get by. Until they can find a placement for their career.

I am a trained chef, and when I first came here, worked in fast food places before I could have the opportunity to work in places I was trained for.

LuasSimon · 25-09-2020 9:02am

The meat factory I referred to in my opening post is round a while . When I went to school 30 years or so ago there was 200 hundred men practically all local working there and they all reared families out of it on reasonable wages. Goodman bought it and got rid of all the existing staff over a few years and employed poles mostly but now he has got rid of many of them and their is eighty Latvians or Brazilians there now on minimum wage with toes coming out through their shoes and the factory has never made as much money .
Could he not pay the staff the living wage and still make loads of money ?

Bubbaclaus · 25-09-2020 9:14am

LuasSimon wrote: »

The meat factory I referred to in my opening post is round a while . When I went to school 30 years or so ago there was 200 hundred men practically all local working there and they all reared families out of it on reasonable wages. Goodman bought it and got rid of all the existing staff over a few years and employed poles mostly but now he has got rid of many of them and their is eighty Latvians or Brazilians there now on minimum wage with toes coming out through their shoes and the factory has never made as much money .
Could he not pay the staff the living wage and still make loads of money ?

How do you know how much a private business is making? I don't think any of the meat factories in Ireland are plcs, although happen to be proven wrong.

Laughing with Me · 25-09-2020 12:21pm

NickNickleby wrote: »

Given my own experience as a youth, I subsequently encouraged my own children to get the best education they can (by this time, thanks to evening classes and hard work, I was now in a much better situation). I told them they could go my route - with definitely risky outcomes - or work hard NOW to ensure their futures. I'm happy to report, it paid off. I think this is the only remedy. In reality, its dog-eat-dog.

Apparently in the 80s, the average college graduate earned 60% more than the average non graduate. Now they earn only about 15% more.

mikhail · 25-09-2020 12:37pm

Laughing with Me wrote: »

Apparently in the 80s, the average college graduate earned 60% more than the average non graduate. Now they earn only about 15% more.

I could believe it. There are a hell of a lot more college graduates these days. The value of a degree has been eroded to hell.

smellyoldboot · 25-09-2020 12:40pm

rob316 wrote: »

I read an article earlier and I thought it was 10 percent increase and I was like oh that's a good increase. 10c? **** sake why bother. Our business pays 11 an hour we always keep it 1 euro above minimum you tend to attract better staff and they don't quit so easy.

It's only 10c yes, a number that is ineffectual and pointless tbh. There is a valid argument though that the minimum wage itself is dangerous. You set the minimum wage and in tandem set the entry/exit point point to various benefits, it sets a baseline price for goods and services, HAP contributions towards housing are based on it so there's a baseline price for accommodation.

As the baseline price for these items is tethered to min wage, we can never really from the point it was instated reduce the cost of living. We must always move the minimum wage up instead. However this will never be agreed to or in some cases can not be afforded by business to rise quicker than price inflation. So it ends up hurting the people it was intended to help and worse still it feeds endless inflation in the economy.

Good for neo-liberals, bad for pretty much everyone else.

stefanovich · 25-09-2020 12:40pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

There's nothing stopping any of the employees from opening their own supermarket or meat processing plant and then buying their own 201 model!
If someone does not want to be on minimum wage then there are plenty of options in terms of upskilling!

Access to capital?

stefanovich · 25-09-2020 12:41pm

mikhail wrote: »

I could believe it. There are a hell of a lot more college graduates these days. The value of a degree has been eroded to hell.

Depends on the degree I think. Lots of degrees have a solid chance of landing you a career on graduation. The trick is to study skills that are in high demand and pay well.

stefanovich · 25-09-2020 12:42pm

smellyoldboot wrote: »

It's only 10c yes, a number that is ineffectual and pointless tbh. There is a valid argument though that the minimum wage itself is dangerous. You set the minimum wage and in tandem set the entry/exit point point to various benefits, it sets a baseline price for goods and services, HAP contributions towards housing are based on it so there's a baseline price for accommodation.

As the baseline price for these items is tethered to min wage, we can never really from the point it was instated reduce the cost of living. We must always move the minimum wage up instead. However this will never be agreed to or in some cases can not be afforded by business to rise quicker than price inflation. So it ends up hurting the people it was intended to help and worse still it feeds endless inflation in the economy.

Good for neo-liberals, bad for pretty much everyone else.

Milton Friedman's negative income tax is a more equitable solution. It's a better version of universal basic income.

Minimum wage - ten cents increase

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