Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 3:33pm

blanch152 wrote: »

If all of that is true, and I am not bothered to challenge it for the moment, it only backs up my statement that there is evidence of individual members of the British security forces involvement.

However, it does nothing to back up your statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state". You have no evidence of British government approval or involvement or even knowledge in advance of actions by individuals.

Another thing I don't know if you've heard of the MRF it was a top secret section of the British army unit was formed during the summer of 1971 and operated until late 1972 or early 1973. MRF teams operated in plain clothes and civilian vehicles, equipped with pistols and submachine guns they were tasked with tracking down and arresting, or killing, members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

Martin Dillon described the MRF's purpose as being "to draw the Provisional IRA into a shooting war with loyalists in order to distract the IRA from its objective of attacking the Army".

MRF operatives patrolled the streets in these cars in teams of two to four, tracking down and arresting or killing suspected IRA members. They were armed with Browning pistols and Sterling sub-machine guns. Former MRF members admitted that the unit shot unarmed people without warning, both IRA members and civilians.Former MRF members claim they had a list of targets they were ordered to "shoot on sight".One member interviewed for the BBC's Panorama, Soldier F, said "We were not there to act like an army unit, we were there to act like a terror group". Soldier H said "We operated initially with them thinking that we were the UVF", to which Soldier F added: "We wanted to cause confusion". Another said that their role was "to draw out the IRA and to minimise their activities".They said they fired on groups of people manning defensive barricades, on the assumption that some might be armed.The MRF member who made a statement in 1978 opined that the unit's role was one of "repression through fear, terror and violence". He said that the unit had been trained to use weapons favoured by the IRA.

In 1972, MRF teams carried out a number of drive-by shootings on random civilians in Catholic and Irish nationalist areas of Belfast, most of which were attributed to Ulster loyalist paramilitaries.

At least fifteen civilians were shot. MRF members have affirmed the unit's involvement in most of these attacks. There are also allegations that the unit helped loyalists to carry out attacks.

Now a secret British army unit that has self admittedly by its members been involved in false flag terrorism should be enough to make you believe that just maybe the British state used loyalists as pseudo gangs, do you really believe that a top secret British army unit of just 40 members some of which were taken from special forces like the SAS were acting as individuals and nothing to do with the British state all?

I won't bring up all the false flag terror bombings they are alleged to be behind as there is no "hardcore evidence" of which you don't believe anything without, I could say way more about this group but I don't want it to be too long

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 3:38pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Now, we are getting somewhere, you are referring to "claims", rather than making statements of historical fact.

The facts are, there is no proof and no evidence of British government approval, advance knowledge or involvement generally in loyalist killings rendering your statement that "most loyalist killings were orchestrated by the British state" untrue. There are claims from nationalist sources of involvement in a minority of such loyalist actions by individuals in the British security services, and potentially senior people within organisations, but there is little hard evidence of the latter, and none to suggest that where it took place, it was anything other than rogue elements acting without the government's knowledge and approval.

In the same way, there were Gardai who helped supply information and intelligence to the IRA, but that isn't taken by anyone to mean that the IRA terrorist activities were orchestrated by the Irish State.

You seem so ignorant I don't think you'll ever believe it as you don't want to believe it, anyway read my last post about the MRF it might help you come around as there is actually solid evidence of that one as you won't believe anything without solo evidence no matter how obvious it is.

blanch152 · 13-07-2020 3:38pm

jm08 wrote: »

So, can you explain this then.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/loyalists-told-charles-haughey-mi5-asked-us-to-execute-you-1.3339804?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Floyalists-told-charles-haughey-mi5-asked-us-to-execute-you-1.3339804

Another claim?

where's the proof, the smoking gun?

Not there, not anywhere. Certainly not on the basis of your original statement.

blanch152 · 13-07-2020 3:40pm

Adam9213 wrote: »

You seem so ignorant I don't think you'll ever believe it as you don't want to believe it, anyway read my last post about the MRF it might help you come around as there is actually solid evidence of that one as you won't believe anything without solo evidence no matter how obvious it is.

Not in the least ignorant, lived through the 1970s and 1980s, have read an awful lot as well, clear in my own mind that the vast vast majority of the blame for the conflict falls on the IRA, Sinn Fein and the men like Bobby Storey who still run them.

jm08 · 13-07-2020 3:46pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Another claim?

where's the proof, the smoking gun?

Not there, not anywhere. Certainly not on the basis of your original statement.

The letter from the UVF to Haughey is in the State papers. If you bothered to read the link you would know that.

“In 1985 we were approached by a MI5 officer attached to the NIO (Northern Ireland Office) and based in Lisburn, Alex Jones was his supposed name,” the UVF said.
“He asked us to execute you.”
The previously secret letter, on UVF headed paper, showed the loyalists told Mr Haughey that the MI5 operative gave details of his cars, photographs of his home, his island, Inishvickillane, and his yacht, Celtic Mist.
“We refused to do it, we were asked would we accept responsibility if you were killed we refused,” the UVF said in the letter.
Signed in block capitals “Capt W Johnston”, the name used by the UVF in all its formal statements, it closed with the line: “We have no love for you but we are not going to carry out work for the Dirty Tricks Department of the British.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/loyalists-told-charles-haughey-mi5-asked-us-to-execute-you-1.3339804

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 3:48pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Not in the least ignorant, lived through the 1970s and 1980s, have read an awful lot as well, clear in my own mind that the vast vast majority of the blame for the conflict falls on the IRA, Sinn Fein and the men like Bobby Storey who still run them.

Do you believe that my post about the MRF a top secret British army unit specifically created to fight the IRA consisting of about 40 members that included members of soldiers from special forces like the SAS who were only allowed use IRA and loyalist weapons were coincidentally acting as individuals and not on behalf of the British state?

Truthvader · 13-07-2020 3:50pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I do not turn a blind eye to any criminal activity.

And it wasn't the point, the point you are desperately trying to deflect for is that, if I know and can see this going on why are the security forces ignoring it.

It is easier for you and others to portray the community as silent in complicity.

Right so no complaint made then. Don't blame you to be honest but lets stop pretending Gerry Adams and his merry men have gone away

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 3:53pm

jm08 wrote: »

The letter from the UVF to Haughey is in the State papers. If you bothered to read the link you would know that.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/loyalists-told-charles-haughey-mi5-asked-us-to-execute-you-1.3339804

That's how they usually carried out proxy killings they gave their agents all the information needed and asked them to kill them, that way there's no evidence that the British state commited the killings apart from the word of loyalists which dozens have claimed the killings they committed were on behalf of British intelligence but for whatever reason they refused to kill Haughey.

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 3:54pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Right so no complaint made then. Don't blame you to be honest but lets stop pretending Gerry Adams and his merry men have gone away

Do you just ignore the posts you have no answer to?

Do you believe that my post about the MRF a top secret British army unit specifically created to fight the IRA consisting of about 40 members that included members of soldiers from special forces like the SAS who were only allowed use IRA and loyalist weapons were coincidentally acting as individuals and not on behalf of the British state?

McMurphy · 13-07-2020 4:04pm

Ok, let's dig into this and assume you're not on a piss take.

Considering there's an outside police force investigation taking place looking specifically at:

The Chief Constable of the PSNI has asked for a senior police officer from outside Northern Ireland to lead the investigation into alleged breaches of Covid-19 restrictions at the funeral of veteran republican Bobby Storey last week.

I'll drill down into your response.

blanch152 wrote: »

I think there are a number of significant differences that have become clearer over time.

(1) The Horkan funeral was an official State funeral giving it a different status.

And the virus will care about that

(2) Whatever about locals, Gardai paid their respects from a distance, in Garda stations around the country, as did most of the politicians. We didn't have people travelling from Cork for the Horkan funeral etc.

The virus must have evolved now to know who is observing the social distancing guidelines, whether or not they're locals or Gardai personell and how far they will be travelling to spread it?

(3) Some sort of unofficial white-shirted militia-type group, looking and acting an awful lot like a US white supremacist group, marshalled the Storey funeral without any legal authority.

The virus doesn't care if you're wearing white shirts or your birthday suit blanch. Wise up.

(4) The Horkan funeral was a real funeral, the Storey funeral included a fake procession to a fake burial, complete with fake eulogies, for politically staged reasons, before a real cremation elsewhere.

The virus can be contacted and spread between hosts anywhere and any place, be it at a "real funeral" or a pretend one. Again wise up.

(5) The Storey funeral, a funeral of an ordinary criminal thug, was given precedence over the funerals of ordinary decent people in Belfast.

The virus will multiply and spread itself just as easily in a maximum security state penitentiary full of hardened criminals, as quickly as it would among a care home for retired clowns if people aren't observing social distancing guidelines.

It wasn't just about the protocols, there were a whole heap of other reasons to be concerned about the Storey funeral, not least what he was, and not to mention the stupid silly selfies by Michelle.

I repeat back to this bit so.

The Chief Constable of the PSNI has asked for a senior police officer from outside Northern Ireland to lead the investigation into alleged breaches of Covid-19 restrictions at the funeral of veteran republican Bobby Storey last week.

You are complaining because it was a Sinn Fein funeral and that's all blanch, at least have the decency to be honest with yourself, as that's the only person you are fooling.

jm08 · 13-07-2020 4:17pm

Adam9213 wrote: »

That's how they usually carried out proxy killings they gave their agents all the information needed and asked them to kill them, that way there's no evidence that the British state commited the killings apart from the word of loyalists which dozens have claimed the killings they committed were on behalf of British intelligence but for whatever reason they refused to kill Haughey.

CAIN have compiled a chronical of State collusion with loyalist paramilitaries (from the Stevens Enquiry).

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/collusion/chron.htm

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2020 4:21pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Right so no complaint made then. Don't blame you to be honest but lets stop pretending Gerry Adams and his merry men have gone away

Deflect from the question by creating a lie. You wouldn't believe what I said anyway.

So the big question hangs in the air still - why have these people been allowed to operate with impunity? Why did it take 8 years for Gardai to act in the Quinn affair and why did they only act when a high power within the gardai got involved?

jm08 · 13-07-2020 4:26pm

blanch152 wrote: »

(2) Whatever about locals, Gardai paid their respects from a distance, in Garda stations around the country, as did most of the politicians. We didn't have people travelling from Cork for the Horkan funeral etc.

There might not have been people from Cork, but there was someone from New York. There is a man in a New York PD uniform marching right behind the coffin holding the arm of who I think maybe Colm Horkan's mother.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/murdered-garda-colm-horkan-laid-to-rest-after-funeral-in-native-mayo-39303602.html

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 4:30pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Right so no complaint made then. Don't blame you to be honest but lets stop pretending Gerry Adams and his merry men have gone away

What do you mean by gone away? If you mean they handed up their weapons and are no longer active as a guerrilla army anymore then yes beyond doubt they have gone away, but if you mean that the people who were in the IRA are no longer trying to further Irish unity politically then no they haven't "gone away"

blanch152 · 13-07-2020 4:30pm

jm08 wrote: »

The letter from the UVF to Haughey is in the State papers. If you bothered to read the link you would know that.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/loyalists-told-charles-haughey-mi5-asked-us-to-execute-you-1.3339804

The Brits told us to kill you, but we were nice enough to say no, so be nice to us.

That is your proof?

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 4:38pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The Brits told us to kill you, but we were nice enough to say no, so be nice to us.

That is your proof?

Do you not believe anything without solid evidence? If they were using loyalist agents as proxies to carry out assassinations how do you expect these things to be "proved"?

Many things like all the high ranking loyalists having been British agents and the countless claims from the highest ranking of loyalists that they committed their murders on behalf of British intelligence along with some of the highest ranking intelligence officers during the troubles having claimed that loyalist paramilitaries were little more than pseudo gangs operating on behalf of British intelligence among many other things doesn't even make you a little bit suspicious?

blanch152 · 13-07-2020 4:40pm

McMurphy wrote: »

Ok, let's dig into this and assume you're not on a piss take.

Considering there's an outside police force investigation taking place looking specifically at:

I'll drill down into your response.

And the virus will care about that

The virus must have evolved now to know who is observing the social distancing guidelines, whether or not they're locals or Gardai personell and how far they will be travelling to spread it?

The virus doesn't care if you're wearing white shirts or your birthday suit blanch. Wise up.

The virus can be contacted and spread between hosts anywhere and any place, be it at a "real funeral" or a pretend one. Again wise up.

The virus will multiply and spread itself just as easily in a maximum security state penitentiary full of hardened criminals, as quickly as it would among a care home for retired clowns if people aren't observing social distancing guidelines.

I repeat back to this bit so.

You are complaining because it was a Sinn Fein funeral and that's all blanch, at least have the decency to be honest with yourself, as that's the only person you are fooling.

No, you are wrong, there are many reasons to complain about the Storey funeral, not all are related to the virus.

The private militia in white shirts is certainly one (don't give me the usual tripe about scouts, GAA clubs, they all have legitimate uniforms).

There is a difference between a State funeral and an ordinary person's funeral, as anyone who recognises the legitimacy of the State would agree.

There is quite a difference between the dignity being shown by the Orange Order and the unionist community in how they are celebrating the 12th and the fake pageantry of the Storey funeral (and that is really surprising me how well they are behaving).

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0713/1153008-12th-july-marches/

The leadership being shown by Arlene Foster also shows up Sinn Fein in a bad light.

""I know people are frustrated when they saw the scenes in west Belfast Tuesday-week ago and say if that happened there, why can't I do it."

She was referring to the large-scale republican gathering last month for the funeral of IRA veteran Bobby Storey.

Ms Foster said people should not fall below the standard requirement of the community just because others do so."

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0712/1152773-twelfth-bonfires-orange-order/

It is interesting that this is still hitting the news. Sinn Fein should have got out early with a real apology, their arrogance on this will continue to cause them problems.

blanch152 · 13-07-2020 4:43pm

Adam9213 wrote: »

Do you not believe anything without solid evidence? If they were using loyalist agents as proxies to carry out assassinations how do you expect these things to be "proved"?

Many things like all the high ranking loyalists having been British agents and the countless claims from the highest ranking of loyalists that they committed their murders on behalf of British intelligence along with some of the highest ranking intelligence officers during the troubles having claimed that loyalist paramilitaries were little more than pseudo gangs operating on behalf of British intelligence among many other things doesn't even make you a little bit suspicious?

Well, there is more reliable evidence, from the PSNI, that the IRA leadership is still in place and controlling Sinn Fein, and you refuse to accept that.

McMurphy · 13-07-2020 4:49pm

blanch152 wrote: »

No, you are wrong, there are many reasons to complain about the Storey funeral, not all are related to the virus.

The private militia in white shirts is certainly one (don't give me the usual tripe about scouts, GAA clubs, they all have legitimate uniforms).

There is a difference between a State funeral and an ordinary person's funeral, as anyone who recognises the legitimacy of the State would agree.

There is quite a difference between the dignity being shown by the Orange Order and the unionist community in how they are celebrating the 12th and the fake pageantry of the Storey funeral (and that is really surprising me how well they are behaving).

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0713/1153008-12th-july-marches/

The leadership being shown by Arlene Foster also shows up Sinn Fein in a bad light.

""I know people are frustrated when they saw the scenes in west Belfast Tuesday-week ago and say if that happened there, why can't I do it."

She was referring to the large-scale republican gathering last month for the funeral of IRA veteran Bobby Storey.

Ms Foster said people should not fall below the standard requirement of the community just because others do so."

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0712/1152773-twelfth-bonfires-orange-order/

It is interesting that this is still hitting the news. Sinn Fein should have got out early with a real apology, their arrogance on this will continue to cause them problems.

I am not interested in your rabbit holes, there was only one main reason for complaints ref the shinners funeral, that being of ignoring social distancing guidelines, our own politicians were calling for those who attended the funeral to stay away from the Dail for 2 weeks for Christ sake, ignore it if you want.

They soon wound their necks in when it was pointed out about Billy Kelleher, Mariead McGuinness both ignoring the quarantine restrictions both were supposed to observe, and also mourners at Garda Horkans funeral also ignoring social distancing guidelines.

You have not and cannot give me any reasons at all as to why you think the mourners at Garda Horkans funeral ignoring the social distancing guidelines were any different to the mourners at Bobby Storey's funeral.

As such I'll continue to point out that your only problem is your borderline obsessive compulsive disorder with Sinn Fein.

Both were wrong to flout the guidelines.

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 4:54pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, there is more reliable evidence, from the PSNI, that the IRA leadership is still in place and controlling Sinn Fein, and you refuse to accept that.

Where is your solid evidence?

Even though there is no "proof" in this matter either I don't refuse to accept that it is true that former high ranking members of the IRA are still in SF and former high ranking members have a say in SF politics.

IRA releases a statement saying "The leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann has formally ordered an end to the armed campaign. This will take effect from 4pm [1600 BST] this afternoon [Thursday 28 July 2005]. All IRA units have been ordered to dump arms. All Volunteers have been instructed to assist the development of purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means. Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever."

They never said they were going to just "go away" only that they would pursue their goals through peaceful means which they have obviously done.

blanch152 · 13-07-2020 4:58pm

McMurphy wrote: »

I am not interested in your rabbit holes, there was only one main reason for complaints ref the shinners funeral, that being of ignoring social distancing guidelines, our own politicians were calling for those who attended the funeral to stay away from the Dail for 2 weeks for Christ sake, ignore it if you want.

They soon wound their necks in when it was pointed out about Billy Kelleher, Mariead McGuinness both ignoring the quarantine restrictions both were supposed to observe, and also mourners at Garda Horkans funeral also ignoring social distancing guidelines.

You would like to think there was only one main reason, but there have been many reasons given across the national media and social media since it happened. I am entitled to my opinion that there were other reasons to be disgusted by the fake funeral, and that there were significant differences between the two.

At the end of the day, because it was all a fake, it was particularly disgusting and the politicising of a funeral by Sinn Fein all the more repugnant.

On Mairead McGuinness, that was a complete lie. She wasn't at the Convention Centre. Amazing that you were taken in by the spin on that one.

https://www.thejournal.ie/billy-kelleher-coronavirus-5142030-Jul2020/

Billy Kelleher apologised as soon as it was raised. Sinn Fein should have learned the lesson from that. Get out ahead of the story and apologise.

This will continue to run and run, especially when the Belfast City Council investigation runs its course. Can see compensation claims ahead.

jm08 · 13-07-2020 5:01pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, there is more reliable evidence, from the PSNI, that the IRA leadership is still in place and controlling Sinn Fein, and you refuse to accept that.

But that isn't an accurate statement. What was said:

In a 2015 report for the UK government, the PSNI and MI5 concluded IRA members believed the army council “oversees” both the IRA and Sinn Féin with an “overarching strategy”, based on current intelligence, historical materials and analysis. The PSNI has said recently that the assessment remains true. “We judge this strategy has a wholly political focus,” the 2015 report said. IRA members “have been directed to actively support Sinn Féin within the community including activity like electioneering and leafleting”.

https://www.ft.com/content/058e757a-54c3-11ea-90ad-25e377c0ee1f

Would you prefer for them to get back to shooting and bombing rather than electioneering and leafleting?

McMurphy · 13-07-2020 5:08pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You would like to think there was only one main reason, but there have been many reasons given across the national media and social media since it happened. I am entitled to my opinion that there were other reasons to be disgusted by the fake funeral, and that there were significant differences between the two.

At the end of the day, because it was all a fake, it was particularly disgusting and the politicising of a funeral by Sinn Fein all the more repugnant.

On Mairead McGuinness, that was a complete lie. She wasn't at the Convention Centre. Amazing that you were taken in by the spin on that one.

I didn't mention the convention center, so I'll just leave this here.

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1279830021742505988?s=19

https://www.thejournal.ie/billy-kelleher-coronavirus-5142030-Jul2020/

Billy Kelleher apologised as soon as it was raised. Sinn Fein should have learned the lesson from that. Get out ahead of the story and apologise.

This will continue to run and run, especially when the Belfast City Council investigation runs its course. Can see compensation claims ahead.

The virus doesn't care for apologies either blanch, and as for the "get ahead of the story" I have a more pertinent cliché for you.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

jm08 · 13-07-2020 5:11pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The Brits told us to kill you, but we were nice enough to say no, so be nice to us.

That is your proof?

How would Charlie be nice to the UVF? Why would they even want him to be? MI5 clearly pissed them off and they probably wanted the evidence of collusion in a safe place.

The dogs in the street knew that the British strategy was to drag the Republic into their dirty war because they were pissed off with the Provos escaping over the border to safety. Thatcher wanted a 15 mile zone on either side of the Border that the UK could enter with reciprocal arrangements if the ROI wanted to enter NI.

That was never going to be allowed by the Irish Government.

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 5:12pm

jm08 wrote: »

But that isn't an accurate statement. What was said:

https://www.ft.com/content/058e757a-54c3-11ea-90ad-25e377c0ee1f

Would you prefer for them to get back to shooting and bombing rather than electioneering and leafleting?

I don't know what he's talking about tbh he has such hate for SF he'll believe whatever suits the agenda.

Truthvader · 13-07-2020 6:06pm

Adam9213 wrote: »

What do you mean by gone away? If you mean they handed up their weapons and are no longer active as a guerrilla army anymore then yes beyond doubt they have gone away, but if you mean that the people who were in the IRA are no longer trying to further Irish unity politically then no they haven't "gone away"

No I mean still operating their little protection rackets and criminal enterprises and local intimidation. Read back a bit. Your pal Francie was trying to sell us all the Mary Lou nonsense about Slab and the boys and telling us all there was no Sinn Fein IRA crime and everything was all normal but he lost the run of himself then and in a different context let it slip that he knew several places involved in the diesel game so I challenged him to report all this crime he knew about. Wisely he decided it might be better to keep the head down and say nothing.

IRA were never more than a self interested criminal gang pursuing power using all this Fenian crap as a cover. They have that now so no need for the United Ireland nonsense now. Gerry happy on his trampoline in one of his houses

13-07-2020 6:08pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Well, there is more reliable evidence, from the PSNI, that the IRA leadership is still in place and controlling Sinn Fein, and you refuse to accept that.

Where is this evidence issued by the psni?

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 6:12pm

Truthvader wrote: »

No I mean still operating their little protection rackets and criminal enterprises and local intimidation. Read back a bit. Your pal Francie was trying to sell us all the Mary Lou nonsense about Slab and the boys and telling us all there was no Sinn Fein IRA crime and everything was all normal but he lost the run of himself then and in a different context let it slip that he knew several places involved in the diesel game so I challenged him to report all this crime he knew about. Wisely he decided it might be better to keep the head down and say nothing.

IRA were never more than a self interested criminal gang pursuing power using all this Fenian crap as a cover. They have that now so no need for the United Ireland nonsense now. Gerry happy on his trampoline in one of his houses

Your British army counterparts don't seem to agree with you that the IRA were little more than a "self interested criminal gang"

An internal British Army document written by General Sir Michael David Jackson and two other senior officers was released in 2007 under the Freedom of Information Act. It examined the British Army's 37 year of deployment in Northern Ireland, and described the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups were described as "little more than a collection of gangsters".

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 6:13pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where is this evidence issued by the psni?

Exactly, I'm looking forward to seeing the "hardcore evidence" he keeps talking about anytime anyone else brings something up.

Truthvader · 13-07-2020 6:15pm

Adam9213 wrote: »

Do you just ignore the posts you have no answer to?

Do you believe that my post about the MRF a top secret British army unit specifically created to fight the IRA consisting of about 40 members that included members of soldiers from special forces like the SAS who were only allowed use IRA and loyalist weapons were coincidentally acting as individuals and not on behalf of the British state?

Not sure how this is answer to or connected anything. Maybe you just got excited.

Anyway you point to a top secret (but not to you at any rate) British Army Unit and then waffle on a bit to ask whether I believe they were acting on behalf of the British State. Well the British Army usually do act on behalf of the British State so not sure what the point is.

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 6:35pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The uvf and uda also operated on behalf of british state,given 85% of their intel come from the uk government sources??

The glennane gang (combined force of security and paramilitary)killed 151 people,150 of which had no connection to republican activity......they statistically likely should have killed more republicans.....

Its almost as if the british wanted to wipe out the nationlist population,in 2 pronged effort,using paramilitarie to kill civilans and sec forces to kill militants

and only people to stand for civilans,was the provos,god bless our patriot dead

It's a lot harder to understand the psychological warfare aspect of the conflict so you wouldn't understand the effect those killings would have but they greatly hurt the IRA more than even killing their members could.

One example is it would be an attempt to draw the IRA away from its war against the state and into a sectarian conflict, if that happened which it did to an extent is it would weaken IRA support greatly making the IRA more vulnerable it would also put pressure on people who supported the IRA in those areas to stop supporting the campaign due to the effect it was having on the ordinary Catholic.

There are so many reasons but that's just a couple of examples.

Also some of the people killed may not have been members but they were probably assisting the IRA in some kind of way which is why they were targeted, also some of them were members of IRA members families which would have been a deterrent to people who wanted to join.

timthumbni · 13-07-2020 7:03pm

Very different 12th this year in Norn Iron. I know this is the 13th but as Sunday would be a no no for parades anyway then today should have been when the main 12th celebrations would take place.

Most towns and villages had one or 2 of their local bands parade locally but very low key and most appear to have socially distanced as per the advice and request from the OO and unionist leaders.

On the news one of the OO spokesmen said something along the lines of “for our wee country’s health, we cancelled the twelfth”

He was a poet and he didn’t know it.

Edgware · 13-07-2020 7:20pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The uvf and uda also operated on behalf of british state,given 85% of their intel come from the uk government sources??

The glennane gang (combined force of security and paramilitary)killed 151 people,150 of which had no connection to republican activity......they statistically likely should have killed more republicans.....

Its almost as if the british wanted to wipe out the nationlist population,in 2 pronged effort,using paramilitarie to kill civilans and sec forces to kill militants

and only people to stand for civilans,was the provos,god bless our patriot dead

The same provos slaughtered a good few civilians as well, many of them Catholics

13-07-2020 7:26pm

Edgware wrote: »

The same provos slaughtered a good few civilians as well, many of them Catholics

Also held defended communities across the north from being overrun,removed police presence and broke up the intel gathering operartions targeting catholics by the ruc

They done piles wrong,noone disputes this,but only for them,catholics had noone to stand up for em,in face of attacks,intimidation and helped provide safety for many elderly people living in isolated areas,who otherwise would been burnt out/shot

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 7:27pm

Edgware wrote: »

The same provos slaughtered a good few civilians as well, many of them Catholics

True, according to CAIN 29% of their victims were civilians.

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 7:44pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Also held defended communities across the north from being overrun,removed police presence and broke up the intel gathering operartions targeting catholics by the ruc

They done piles wrong,noone disputes this,but only for them,catholics had noone to stand up for em,in face of attacks,intimidation and helped provide safety for many elderly people living in isolated areas,who otherwise would been burnt out/shot

The battle of St Matthews one of the most popular ones because it was when the PIRA had only started arming up and before there was a guerilla war, it was their first major action.

As the situation worsened, Catholic residents feared that the gathering crowds of loyalists would attempt to invade the Short Strand and burn them from their homes. Local IRA members retrieved weapons from arms dumps. A young resident, Jim Gibney, recalled: "I saw neighbours, people I knew, coming down the street carrying rifles. I was just dumbstruck by this experience. I'd never seen such a thing before".

British soldiers eventually arrived in armoured vehicles and cordoned off the roads around the Short Strand, which denied the IRA "any hope of reinforcement".
A small group of IRA members and members of the Citizens' Defence Committee took up positions in the church grounds and in adjoining streets. The IRA members were armed with M1 carbines.

This action brought a great deal of support for armed conflict on one hand you had the peaceful SDLP who after the shooting began, Stormont MP Paddy Kennedy went with Short Strand residents to the local RUC base and demanded protection for their homes which never came, and on the other hand you had the IRA who risked their lives some of whom were killed trying to protect the local people, ask the families who were shaking and scared in their homes do they think the IRA men who died were terrorists I doubt they'll say they were.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_St_Matthew's

Truthvader · 13-07-2020 7:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The uvf and uda also operated on behalf of british state,given 85% of their intel come from the uk government sources??

The glennane gang (combined force of security and paramilitary)killed 151 people,150 of which had no connection to republican activity......they statistically likely should have killed more republicans.....

Its almost as if the british wanted to wipe out the nationlist population,in 2 pronged effort,using paramilitarie to kill civilans and sec forces to kill militants

and only people to stand for civilans,was the provos,god bless our patriot dead

Oh deary me. The answer to criminal thuggery is not more criminal thuggery. The provos who you laughably describe as patriots soent a deal of their time killing and maiming their own people. Murdering people is not acceptable

Truthvader · 13-07-2020 7:59pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Very different 12th this year in Norn Iron. I know this is the 13th but as Sunday would be a no no for parades anyway then today should have been when the main 12th celebrations would take place.

Most towns and villages had one or 2 of their local bands parade locally but very low key and most appear to have socially distanced as per the advice and request from the OO and unionist leaders.

On the news one of the OO spokesmen said something along the lines of “for our wee country’s health, we cancelled the twelfth”

He was a poet and he didn’t know it.

Is there any hope they will grow up?

Truthvader · 13-07-2020 8:04pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Also held defended communities across the north from being overrun,removed police presence and broke up the intel gathering operartions targeting catholics by the ruc

They done piles wrong,noone disputes this,but only for them,catholics had noone to stand up for em,in face of attacks,intimidation and helped provide safety for many elderly people living in isolated areas,who otherwise would been burnt out/shot

Actually the British Army wete sent over to protect catholiv areas. Didn't suit Gerry Adams and the lads who had failed to protect anyone so they set about poisoning the effort. Abley assisted by idiots in the Parachute regiment

celt262 · 13-07-2020 8:05pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Is there any hope they will grow up?

At least they are acting responsibly for once.

RandomViewer · 13-07-2020 8:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And what would yous propose,to do when entire streets of catholics being burnt out and noone to defend them??

Seriously come on big man....you wouldnt bother to defend your home or community and sit on side of road looking for a handout after being burnt out and several of your neighbours killed,would you.......its our country,nationlists shouldnt need put up with this

Be a cold day in hell before i weep over killing likes of billy wright or georgy seawright.....but ya....keep turning other cheek,maybe they mightnt shoot your family members in the face,when their gang calls to your house and leave yous not needing a closed coffin

He's an ex guard , it's how they're trained to think.

Truthvader · 13-07-2020 8:09pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And what would yous propose,to do when entire streets of catholics being burnt out and noone to defend them??

Seriously come on big man....you wouldnt bother to defend your home or community and sit on side of road looking for a handout after being burnt out and several of your neighbours killed,would you.......its our country,nationlists shouldnt need put up with this

Be a cold day in hell before i weep over killing likes of billy wright or georgy seawright.....but ya....keep turning other cheek,maybe they mightnt shoot your family members in the face,when their gang calls to your house and leave yous not needing a closed coffin

Well that is total bollocks. Whatever the provos did they did not protect catholic areas in 1969. I Ran Away. As above the British army actually protected catholic areas in 1969

13-07-2020 8:11pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Well that is total bollocks

What part is??......they had noone else to stand up.for them

Whatever the provos did they did not protect catholic areas in 1969. I Ran Away. As above the British army actually protected catholic areas in 1969

The provos didnt exist in 1969.

Actually remind me,how.many streets of cathoics were burnt out when the provos got up.and running???

They done piles and piles wrong,but when noone else there,they stepped up and defended their communities and its a shame,the state has never given em,the credit they deserve

RandomViewer · 13-07-2020 8:14pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Well that is total bollocks. Whatever the provos did they did not protect catholic areas in 1969. I Ran Away. As above the British army actually protected catholic areas in 1969

That's officials, PIRA didn't exist in 1969

timthumbni · 13-07-2020 8:16pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Is there any hope they will grow up?

Who? The OO?

Truthvader · 13-07-2020 8:18pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Who? The OO?

The marchy marchy goons trying to annoy their neighbours

RandomViewer · 13-07-2020 8:19pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Who? The OO?

Funny that Tommy Gorman wasn't reporting from the 11th night bonfires, RTE being impartial and all that

timthumbni · 13-07-2020 8:22pm

RandomViewer wrote: »

Funny that Tommy Gorman wasn't reporting from the 11th night bonfires, RTE being impartial and all that

Sorry, I have no idea who Tommy Gorman is.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2020 9:10pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Well that is total bollocks. Whatever the provos did they did not protect catholic areas in 1969. I Ran Away. As above the British army actually protected catholic areas in 1969

I have been around Boards for a while and barring one or two posters I have never come across a more woefully or is it willfully biased interpreter of the the facts of history.
The BA was sent in by a Labour government to protect Catholic areas but within months had managed to turn that Catholic community against them as they began to shore up the sectarian state rather than take it on. That was the tagedy and the crime...had they taken on the Orange sectarian state as they were eventually forced to do, none of it would have happened.

Read the factual history...here's the timeline of 1969...hardly a mention, much less an action by the IRA. How many bombs by loyalists and killings of Catholics, not to mention beatings can you count?
https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch69.htm

Adam9213 · 13-07-2020 9:24pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have been around Boards for a while and barring one or two posters I have never come across a more woefully or is it willfully biased interpreter of the the facts of history.
The BA was sent in by a Labour government to protect Catholic areas but within months had managed to turn that Catholic community against them as they began to shore up the sectarian state rather than take it on. That was the tagedy and the crime...had they taken on the Orange sectarian state as they were eventually forced to do, none of it would have happened.

Read the factual history...here's the timeline of 1969...hardly a mention, much less an action by the IRA. How many bombs by loyalists and killings of Catholics, not to mention beatings can you count?
https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch69.htm

The battle of St Matthews one of the most popular ones because it was when the PIRA had even started attacking tand before there was a guerilla war, it was their first major action.

As the situation worsened, Catholic residents feared that the gathering crowds of loyalists would attempt to invade the Short Strand and burn them from their homes. Local IRA members retrieved weapons from arms dumps. A young resident, Jim Gibney, recalled: "I saw neighbours, people I knew, coming down the street carrying rifles. I was just dumbstruck by this experience. I'd never seen such a thing before".

British soldiers eventually arrived in armoured vehicles and cordoned off the roads around the Short Strand, which denied the IRA "any hope of reinforcement".
A small group of IRA members and members of the Citizens' Defence Committee took up positions in the church grounds and in adjoining streets. The IRA members were armed with M1 carbines successfully preventing the incursion of loyalist mobs and militants.

This action brought a great deal of support for armed conflict on one hand you had the peaceful SDLP who after the shooting began, Stormont MP Paddy Kennedy went with Short Strand residents to the local RUC base cried and demanded protection for their homes which never came, and on the other hand you had the IRA who risked their lives some of whom were killed trying to protect the local people, ask the families who were shaking and scared in their homes do they think the IRA men who died were terrorists I doubt they'll say they were.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_St_Matthew%27s

Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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