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Non members shooting in gun club land with permission?

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  • 28-02-2021 11:21pm
    #1
    John Doe 54
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭


    Looking for some advice please, I have a good idea on the answer but I just want to get clarification:
    If someone is not a member of a gun club but they have written/verbal permission from the land owner to shoot on their land and are fully insured, are they OK to shoot there or does the gun club have any right to tell them not to shoot there?


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    #2
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    If the gun club only has permission, like you, then you're golden.

    If the gun club has leased/bought the shooting rights then no. They have final say.
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    #3
    John Doe 54
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭John Doe 54


    Cass wrote: »
    If the gun club only has permission, like you, then you're golden.

    If the gun club has leased/bought the shooting rights then no. They have final say.

    Will have to look into that, the reason I ask is that a farmer had given permission to shoot on his land because the gun club there never helps him out with pest control e.g. pigeon, crows etc. But as soon as the gun club caught wind that a non member was shooting on that land there was toys being thrown out of the prams


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    #4
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,602 ✭✭✭Feisar


    John Doe 54 wrote: »
    Will have to look into that, the reason I ask is that a farmer had given permission to shoot on his land because the gun club there never helps him out with pest control e.g. pigeon, crows etc. But as soon as the gun club caught wind that a non member was shooting on that land there was toys being thrown out of the prams

    Yea there’s a big difference between having permission and having the sporting rights.

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #5
    John Doe 54
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭John Doe 54


    Feisar wrote: »
    Yea there’s a big difference between having permission and having the sporting rights.

    The land owner should be able to answer that question fairly quickly I guess


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    #6
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    I had the same issue, local gun club won't put in the time to do the crop protection.

    What I did certainly didn't do was hunt the ground for game. Crop protection with decoys over winter rape, standing crop and stubble.


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    #7
    John Doe 54
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭John Doe 54


    cookimonster wrote: »
    I had the same issue, local gun club won't put in the time to do the crop protection.

    What I did certainly didn't do was hunt the ground for game. Crop protection with decoys over winter rape, standing crop and stubble.

    That's pretty much it, the other person I shoot with is a member and we started shooting together, I just go out with him on decoy shoots in the hide, haven't shot any game like pheasants, as I understand they may put in the time, money and effort the rare the birds.


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    #8
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    John Doe 54 wrote: »

    ........, the other person I shoot with is a member and we started shooting together, I just go out with him on decoy shoots in the hide,....

    ...and that maybe the issue / confusion within the club. From the little I know most gun clubs don't allow guests on thier lands. If you are shooting with a club member then it may be assumed you are availing of the club bounties.
    You could contact the club Chairman or Secretary and clear the air. I did something similar when I got permission to shoot fox on a couple of farms that were hunted by a club, the Secretary was delighted to hear that I was out hitting the foxs.


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    #9
    slipperyox
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    If you purchase a pheasant.
    And free it, (the act of releasing it in a non enclosed region).
    And someone outside a club has permission to shoot in same area/field, I can't see any reason why they can't, as the club doesn't own the land.

    sporting rights....Is that in writing with the land owner?


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    #10
    garrettod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Hi,

    You could offer to join the club, as a goodwill gesture - assuming you've an interest in hunting regularly, and they don't ask for some daft joining fee.

    Like Cookimonster has suggested, another option is to have a chat with the secretary of the club, if you can track them down, see if you can have a reasonable conversation with them, and get them to have a chat with the members. The reality is that you are only one gun, not twenty guns, and it's only one permission - the club most likely have many permissions.

    Final option is to mention it to the land owner - if the owner see's that you are out there helping to protect the crops, while the hunting club are not, then the hunting club may be the ones who get told where to go.

    Thanks,

    G.



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    #11
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    slipperyox wrote: »
    If you purchase a pheasant.
    And free it, (the act of releasing it in a non enclosed region).
    And someone outside a club has permission to shoot in same area/field, I can't see any reason why they can't, as the club doesn't own the land.

    Would you apply that same thought process to racing pigeons? They are someone's property. Domesticated animals, of which reared game birds are classed are the property of the owners.

    sporting rights....Is that in writing with the land owner?

    The issue here is that the land owner may not in fact have legal rights to the 'sporting rights' of the land. Although they may have legal ownership over the land the sporting rights may be retained by a third party regardless as to who sells or buys the land. If this right is not exercised for 12 years then the rights may be cancelled upon application to the relevant government agency- Register of Titles.


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    #12
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Would you apply that same thought process to racing pigeons? They are someone's property. Domesticated animals, of which reared game birds are classed are the property of the owners.



    The issue here is that the land owner may not in fact have legal rights to the 'sporting rights' of the land. Although they may have legal ownership over the land the sporting rights may be retained by a third party regardless as to who sells or buys the land. If this right is not exercised for 12 years then the rights may be cancelled upon application to the relevant government agency- Register of Titles.

    Cookimonster, I think the situation with released pheasants is slightly different. Once they are released they become wild animals and can only become property again by means of lawful hunting. If you applied the line of reasoning that released game is still the property of the one who released it than the Slazenger family own all the Sika deer in Ireland since they own Powerscourt where Sika were originally released from.

    A racing pigeon on the other hand is not released in the hope of maybe being able to successfully hunt it at some time in the future. The intention of the release is that it returns to the loft as soon as possible and continues to be a domesticated animal while underway.


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    #13
    John Doe 54
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭John Doe 54


    garrettod wrote: »
    Hi,

    You could offer to join the club, as a goodwill gesture - assuming you've an interest in hunting regularly, and they don't ask for some daft joining fee.

    Like Cookimonster has suggested, another option is to have a chat with the secretary of the club, if you can track them down, see if you can have a reasonable conversation with them, and get them to have a chat with the members. The reality is that you are only one gun, not twenty guns, and it's only one permission - the club most likely have many permissions.

    Final option is to mention it to the land owner - if the owner see's that you are out there helping to protect the crops, while the hunting club are not, then the hunting club may be the ones who get told where to go.

    I had thought about that but unlike fishing clubs where anyone can join from anywhere the gun clubs seem to be living in the past and only allow local shooters who live I the parish, if it was possible you would imagine it would encourage more people and especially younger people. Looking at the rape field last week the birds have it down to the ground where it should already be getting close to knee high. Unfortunately as the club got nasty about this we won't do want the hassle and will have to wait with helping the farmer until we find out the permission craic


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    #14
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    meathstevie wrote: »
    If you applied the line of reasoning that released game is still the property of the one who released it than the Slazenger family own all the Sika deer in Ireland since they own Powerscourt where Sika were originally released from.

    Deer would be different, they are now protected under the Wildlife Act, no one has the right to hunt them except under licence and with in the terms of the Act. There are many a post here from lads arguing that if they own the land then they don't need any license or are under any legal obligation to hunt them. This is not true, as wild animals they are not owned by anyone.


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    #15
    John Doe 54
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭John Doe 54


    It seems the gun club is now going out of their way to buy rights to the areas they did not have rights to, as we received a phone call from one of the landowners. So end of the day the gun club doesn't care about the farmers crop and just want all the land for themselves for when pheasant season comes around. Looks like we'll just stick with the farmer we usually help out in a different area. Thanks all for the advice on this. One piece of advice to anyone starting or looking for a gun licence, do a lot of research on the gun club in your area, I'm not saying all are the same as this one I have come across but most are, the big shots in the clubs have clicks and will only breed and release pheasant for the click members not new/young members all they want is their money to buy more birds not help encourage the sport. The only way to go is permission and it's a case of asking a land owner and it will be a yes or no answer if you can shoot there. Maybe someone else can recommend some decent clubs, this whole not living in the parish/area to be able to join a club is a load of $**t if you ask me.


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    #16
    slipperyox
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Would you apply that same thought process to racing pigeons? They are someone's property. Domesticated animals, of which reared game birds are classed are the property of the owners.



    The issue here is that the land owner may not in fact have legal rights to the 'sporting rights' of the land. Although they may have legal ownership over the land the sporting rights may be retained by a third party regardless as to who sells or buys the land. If this right is not exercised for 12 years then the rights may be cancelled upon application to the relevant government agency- Register of Titles.

    Yes I would apply the same reasoning.

    The racing pigeons are free to go where ever. but they don't 99 times out of a 100 because they are returning to a good deal (food,water predator free area, mates)
    The act of releasing them to the wild, as sentient beings, absolves (at least temporaraly) the person of ownership.

    Releasing = freeing

    Free = no longer the property of..

    I have permissions in other club lands, but would not shoot pheasants purely out of courtesy. Even though I mentioned, nothing stopping me.

    When the reverse happens in our club, our policy is: "better have them pissing outside the tent than inside"
    So convince them to join.


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    #17
    garrettod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭garrettod


    John Doe 54 wrote: »
    I had thought about that but unlike fishing clubs where anyone can join from anywhere the gun clubs seem to be living in the past and only allow local shooters who live I the parish, if it was possible you would imagine it would encourage more people and especially younger people. Looking at the rape field last week the birds have it down to the ground where it should already be getting close to knee high. Unfortunately as the club got nasty about this we won't do want the hassle and will have to wait with helping the farmer until we find out the permission craic

    Unfortunitely, that goes on a lot in Ireland.

    It's just pure greed, in most cases, with the clubs having more land then they can properly cover. Ironically, in most cases, the club in question doesn't own any of the land that the members hunt on, albeit in some cases they may be paying a fee of some description.

    The attitude goes against the spirit of encouraging new people into the sport, which really disappoints me.

    I've often wondered why the NARGC don't do a bit more, to help encourage every club to take in a minimum number of new members each year.

    All you can do when you come across this, is speak with the landowner, and if they have given exclusive access to a club, ask them directly how much help they are getting from the hunting club, when it's needed and not pheasant season.

    Thanks,

    G.



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    #18
    Excavo
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭Excavo


    Some clubs are extreme in restricting members. This closed shop attitude may well be a large contributing factor in the downfall of our sport long term.

    In my local club there is no younger guys coming in at all, not even on the horizon which is quite sad. We need more cooperation amongst shooters and openness now more than ever.


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    #19
    John Doe 54
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭John Doe 54


    Excavo wrote: »
    Some clubs are extreme in restricting members. This closed shop attitude may well be a large contributing factor in the downfall of our sport long term.

    In my local club there is no younger guys coming in at all, not even on the horizon which is quite sad. We need more cooperation amongst shooters and openness now more than ever.

    That's for sure, I was only thinking what would be the harm in a club having a certain Limited license for someone outside the club, if they don't want their pheasants shot, if the person has full insurance themselves and maybe a small fee of €30 or €40 for the year to shoot on the land for possibly pigeon, crows, foxes, rabbits


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    #20
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    slipperyox wrote: »
    Yes I would apply the same reasoning.

    The racing pigeons are free to go where ever. but they don't 99 times out of a 100 because they are returning to a good deal (food,water predator free area, mates)
    The act of releasing them to the wild, as sentient beings, absolves (at least temporaraly) the person of ownership.

    Well this may not deal with your interpretation of 'releasing' and 'free' but it does deal with the legal issue of shooting 'racing pigeons' and such like.

    Back ground -

    Wild Life Act

    Protection of wild birds-

    Section 19
    —Wild birds and their nests and eggs, other than wild birds of the species mentioned in the Third Schedule to this Act, shall be protected.
    Third Schedule

    Species of wild birds excluded (subject to Section 22 (2)) from Sections 19 and 22

    Sections 19 , 22 , 31 and 35 .

    Bullfinch

    Carrion Crow

    Greater Black-backed Gull

    Herring Gull

    Hooded (Grey) Crow

    House Sparrow

    Jackdaw

    Jay

    Lesser Black-backed Gull

    Magpie

    Pigeons, including Wood Pigeon, but not including carrier pigeons, racing homing pigeons or doves

    Rook

    Starling

    So we will agree to differ on whether or not released game birds are the property of those who released them. By the way I am not suggesting that if they stray onto other lands that they shouldn't be shot, but in this case it is about shooting released game birds on club land that you may share permissions with. But were I will stand firm is that it is illegal to shoot racing pigeons and thier ilk.


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    #21
    slipperyox
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    @cookiemonster.

    maybe lost in translation there..

    I never mentioned shooting racing pigeons.

    I was referring to the similarity of non "ownership on release". cf Pheasants.

    On releasing racing pigeons, while free, the owner acknowledges the potential for loss outside of his/her control, and forfeits possession temporarily.


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    #22
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    slipperyox wrote: »
    @cookiemonster.

    On releasing racing pigeons, while free, the owner acknowledges the potential for loss outside of his/her control, and forfeits possession temporarily.

    Can you show that some where re 'forfeits possession temporarily'.

    It clearly states they carrier pigeons, racing homing pigeons and doves, are protected, yes he may lose some to a predator, act of God or an unwise shot, but they are still the property of the owner. Sheep grazing on open hill are still the property of the owner, just because they are released into an area with no boundaries doesn't mean they are free.


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    #23
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    cookimonster wrote: »
    Deer would be different, they are now protected under the Wildlife Act, no one has the right to hunt them except under licence and with in the terms of the Act. There are many a post here from lads arguing that if they own the land then they don't need any license or are under any legal obligation to hunt them. This is not true, as wild animals they are not owned by anyone.

    Correct, all lawful deer hunting is subject to a licence. The same pretty much applies to all other birds and mammals (hare), protected unless lawfully hunted during times an open season order is in effect. The main difference with deer being that no specific licence from NPWS is required to hunt during the open season.


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    #24
    deeksofdoom
    Registered Users Posts: 2,016 ✭✭✭deeksofdoom


    I would have thought that its the land owner has the final say, if the gun club aren't doing their part for the landowner and he finds someone else then that's his decision its his land. It doesn't take much for the landowners in the local area to get their backs up and tell the gun club where to go. If you can talk to the local club and they are okay to deal with then fair enough, but if it becomes a problem and it escalates e.g. intimidation, interfering with your vehicle etc.... contact the Gardaí straight away. Had a similar issue with a couple of assholes in a neighboring club and I was sorry I didn't ring the Guards and have them come out at the time, as I travelled down the road after the incident only to find out they had interfered with my tyres although it was nearly too late to prove anything at that stage. At the time I let it go but I'm still mad over it...

    Just be careful, gun clubs have a lot of idiots who think they can take the law into their own hands, don't become a victim.


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    #25
    cookimonster
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    In most cases you are 100% the landowner has the say, but if he doesn't own or have the sporting rights then he has little authority to intervene.

    Theres a interesting legal piece on the subject of 'sporting rights' unfortunately I can't repost it as it is copyrighted but if you Google 'Fishing and Sporting Rights Legal Guide' you'll get it. Interesting read.


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    #26
    JP22
    Registered Users Posts: 554 ✭✭✭JP22


    The farmer/landowner has the ultimate say in who has permission to shoot their lands and the type of shooting permitted.

    Most farmer/landowners who allow game clubs access also have a few local, well known to them lads who also have permission and land access.
    Excavo wrote: »
    Some clubs are extreme in restricting members. This closed shop attitude may well be a large contributing factor in the downfall of our sport long term.

    In my local club there is no younger guys coming in at all, not even on the horizon which is quite sad. We need more cooperation amongst shooters and openness now more than ever.

    Its a balancing act and has to be carefully managed by game clubs, some farmer/landowners don't want large numbers of outsiders on their lands, its just the way it is.


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    #27
    garrettod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭garrettod


    JP22 wrote: »
    ...
    Its a balancing act and has to be carefully managed by game clubs, some farmer/landowners don't want large numbers of outsiders on their lands, its just the way it is.

    I was with you, until the last bit.

    What difference do you think it makes, as to where someone comes from?

    There's an obvious difference between large and small groups on a property, but I don't see how it matters where someone comes from. What matters is how they behave.

    In fact, one land owner that I know, doesn't want any locals on his property, as he thinks they are too arrogant, almost acting like they own the land. Furthermore, he'd rather not have all the locals on his property, and later discussing his personal circumstances, such as how many head of cattle he might have, or if he's bought a new high end tractor etc.

    It's also easier for a farmer to revoke a permission, if the hunter isn't a local - as there's less of a connection to have to consider, or potential backlash. That gives the farmer a greater feeling of being in control, I would imagine.

    Thanks,

    G.



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    #28
    Uinseann_16
    Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭Uinseann_16


    Im not in a gun club and at my last estimate using land direct to get an estimate of acerage ive about 8,000 acres of permission ,
    Much of that overlaps gun clubs and quite a bit of it is "no shooting":P land with signs up because alot of gun club lads will shoot just about anywhere they want
    Landowners are always happier when theyve chatted you and actually confirmed insurance and given written permission because they know youre not a messer
    And no as said above unless they own/rent the sporting rights essentially the only thing the gun club entitled to do is go and **** themselves :pac:


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    #29
    JP22
    Registered Users Posts: 554 ✭✭✭JP22


    garrettod wrote: »
    I was with you, until the last bit.

    What difference do you think it makes, as to where someone comes from?

    There's an obvious difference between large and small groups on a property, but I don't see how it matters where someone comes from. What matters is how they behave.

    In fact, one land owner that I know, doesn't want any locals on his property, as he thinks they are too arrogant, almost acting like they own the land. Furthermore, he'd rather not have all the locals on his property, and later discussing his personal circumstances, such as how many head of cattle he might have, or if he's bought a new high end tractor etc.

    It's also easier for a farmer to revoke a permission, if the hunter isn't a local - as there's less of a connection to have to consider, or potential backlash. That gives the farmer a greater feeling of being in control, I would imagine.

    Totally agree with you but its not my views, yours or others that count, end of day we have to abide by the farmer/landowners views and wishes.

    Some will allow anyone onto their lands, others prefer local clubs, others allow no clubs but most will allow a local club and some individuals who they personally know.


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    #30
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,024 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    JP22 wrote: »
    The farmer/landowner has the ultimate say in who has permission to shoot their lands and the type of shooting permitted.
    The sporting rights owner has the real say, not the landowner. Often the landowner is also the sporting rights owner.


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    #31
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,024 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    slipperyox wrote: »
    Yes I would apply the same reasoning.

    The racing pigeons are free to go where ever. but they don't 99 times out of a 100 because they are returning to a good deal (food,water predator free area, mates)
    The act of releasing them to the wild, as sentient beings, absolves (at least temporaraly) the person of ownership.

    Releasing = freeing

    Free = no longer the property of.

    I don’t think this logic holds up.
    They are released for the purpose of returning to a coop. There’s no legal precedent that says releasing from control absolves you of ownership.
    If that were true, anyone would be free to claim ownership of a dog off the lease.

    On the pheasant situation. If they are are reared in a coop or domesticated in anyway, they belong to the owners. When they are released in the wild, they are feral pheasant and no longer the property. It is being feral that’s makes them fair game.

    A racing pigeon isn’t a feral pigeon when in flight. Although, if he never came home, and took roost in a tree. It would then become a feral pigeon and be fair game.


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