Did any of you ever get slapped as a child?

That is why we should not discuss such things in terms of absolutes _or_ individual anecdotes. No statement has legitimacy then if we are going to worry about the exceptions. That is why we do studies and research - to check the effects on groups as a whole.

And last time I checked - and last two times this subject came up on boards and certain pro-violence users were asked again and again for the evidence - only to never produce it and eventually run out of the threads - the general outcomes to violent discipline did not look too good in the studies people actually cited.

I would question too whether "intent" should be the primary focus of our evaluations here. Not to lean too heavily on the old cliche that the road to hell is paved with good intentions - the fact is people can do awful things with the right intentions. Actual outcomes studied over time should be more important than intention.

And if I catch a man - for example - engaging with his underage daughter in various forms of sexual play I am not about to listen to him tell me his "intention" was to introduce her slowly and carefully to the world of sex so she would be ready and educated on it for when she chooses a sexual partner. His intentions - even if genuine - be damned. I will be doing everything I can to ensure the eye of the law falls squarely on him. And for good reason.

People denying their children vaccinnes - or denying them parts of education like Christians do with Evolution in the US - or denying them education at all like the Amish and others have been accused of - likely have great and well meant and genuine good intentions too.

Leaving everything up to the intentions of the parents is not a good approach I fear. With the best of intentions people can do the worst things.

Actually even at 6 my own daughter came home from a friends house who she had witnessed being slapped. In her own words she described it to me and her confusion. But it amounted to essentially her observing - even at age 6 - that her friend now knew not to do it again (whatever it was that earned her the slap) - but not at all why they should not be doing it.

She was confused by the experience because she spoke to her friend once the parent had left and they talked about why the friend was slapped. Neither of them could figure out what was actually wrong with what the child did. The child pretty much knew not to do it again - to avoid a slap - but learned absolutely nothing from the experience more than that.

I can very much understand why people are against using violence as _part_ of parenting and discipline - and the research and studies seem to support their concerns. However parents who use the violence _as_ the parenting and discipline such as the scenario above - should be subject to a whole level of ire and derision way beyond that.

noubliezjamais wrote: »

In what ways would mental abuse be worse than physical

I would say it is hard for anyone without an agenda of supporting one over the other to answer that honestly. Mainly because they rarely occur in isolation. There is very often elements of one in play when one is engaging in the other. I would expect incidents of _purely_ physical abuse or emotional abuse - without the other - to be rare and hard to control for.

If the recommendation for physical violence as a discipline methodology is that it is at least better than anything on an arbitrary cherry picked list of abuse - then that hardly seems a recommendation at all to me. Sounds a bit like a violent mugger claiming "sure I didn't rape or kill you - so that's something".

Assertions that one form of discipline is no better or worse than any other is just that - an assertion. And some actual study or data on the subject is the only thing that will move it past the level of assertion. Certainly individual anecdotes of people who turned out well or badly because of one methodology is not going to do it. Unfortunately when studies actually are cited on the subject the people who like to defend the violence approaches do not find support in them and so simply hand wave at them with excuses like "Ah sure all this academia is just liberals writing what other liberals need to hear".

Thankfully in the real world violence or mental abuse are the extremes on a continuum rather than the only items on a menu. Between these extremes lies all kinds of options of positive and negative reinforcement - as well as normal human education through conversation. And I "as a parent" have not once yet found reason to use violence on my children _or_ abuse them mentally or to use fear as a weapon.

Another user on boards gave a good example of this once which I think highlights the range of options. He was talking about children refusing to brush their teeth. There are a number of options of course on what to do as a parent, the below list are examples not exhaustive:

1) There are violent options there. Hit the child until they do it. And escalate the quantity or force of that violence as required. Or take the toothbrush and forcibly do it for them in a painful way such they they will only want to do it themselves in the future.

2) Some kind of psychological abuse. I dunno what that would even entail? Tell them they are dirty disgusting creatures? Tell them no one will like them if they are not clean? That mammy or daddy will want to leave home and never come back if they have a dirty child? I dunno. My imagination for abuse is not as deep as that of the people who engage in it. Ask them!

3) Use lies such as telling them some boogeyman will come and get them if they do not do it or the tooth fairy will pay out less money for poorly looked after teeth. Or some imaginary god friend is watching and is disappointed in them. The little baby jesus is crying over them. Gag me with a metaphorical spoon!

4) Or simply talk with them. Educate them on why we brush our teeth. Give them the straight facts that if there is food residue on their teeth then little creatures eat that food and excrete their own version of poo. And that poo in their mouth is acidic and damages the teeth over time.

5) Tell them it is their mouth and their choice and that if they do not want to brush that is fine so lets all go to bed now. Make zero issue out of it at the time. But from the next day on start or stop doing things as a consequence. Schedule more trips to the dentist. Reduce their allowance of sugary foods they desire. And when they inevitably ask why - tell them that while it is _their_ choice to brush or not brush their teeth - as their parent it is _your_ choice what food you give them and how you engage in their dental care. And as such their refusal to brush means that as a parent you can not in good conscience give them sugary foods or allow long periods between dental appointments.

6) A lot of positive reinforcement when they do brush telling them they look and or smell great.

Options 4 and 5 and 6 are not abuse and are not violent and either - or in my opinion a combination of the three - and are likely to still reach the goals of discipline we want as a parent. Further we will not just get the outcome we want but the child knows _why_ too which as I said in an earlier post about a child getting hit and not even really understanding what it was they did wrong - is a useful goal to have.

Further I find those options bypass a claim that was made on the thread already. That we do not treat children and adults the same. So we would not throw a child into prison for example for their misbehaviour but we would an adult. And so on. Actually I find a lot of options 4 5 and 6 above _are_ based on treating adults and children the same. And I see that as an advantage because you are not only teaching them discipline in the moment - but in ways that will hold relevance to their adult life.

Because when you misbehave as an adult quite often 4) People will try to educate you with new information to inform you on why your behaviour is bad 5) People will modify what they feel they can in good conscience do or not do based on your behaviours and 6) good behaviour will often receive positive feedback.

While 1) We do not often physically attack adults behaving poorly 2) Psychological abuse is still abuse among adults and 3) Not too many adults are going to be cowed by the boogeyman et al.

So I do not take the "we treat adults and children different" point as a relevant point, argument, criteria or measure at all. Quite the opposite in fact. I would question why we would not be gravitating towards disciplinary methodologies that will remain constant throughout a persons life stages before I would merely assert that no method is inherently any better or worse than any other.