Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

mariaalice · 04-02-2019 12:13pm

Lillyfae wrote: »

They are the ones telling us that they get into nursing because they want to look after people- I'm just pointing out that if that was the case then the nurse-patient ratio would be the only thing to strike about, and they wouldn't be leaving in droves. I'm not talking about going back to the old days where the nuns were scrubbing everything with Jeyes fluid all day and all night- I'm saying that we don't need more managers than nurses and not all nurses need every qualification. We need nurses to be nurses, not doctors.

Its going the other way though Simon Harris even saying it the 'lower skilled' elements need to done by HCA and theater assistants and nurses doing more stand-alone work. Its the same everywhere no health care system can afford to pay someone 30k to 50k to do semi-skilled work.

04-02-2019 12:17pm

mariaalice wrote: »

........... no health care system can afford to pay someone 30k to 50k to do semi-skilled work.

Indeed, we are looking at decades of bad management in the HSE. Let's face it, the nurses don't really want that fixed as it won't improve their pay packets and the unions most definitely don't want it fixed either.

mariaalice · 04-02-2019 12:22pm

Augeo wrote: »

Indeed, we are looking at decades of bad management in the HSE. Let's face it, the nurses don't really want that fixed as it won't improve their pay packets and the unions most definitely don't want it fixed either.

Do you really think there are 23-year-old sitting around thinking its all grand let's not change anything?

It would improve their pay packets because doing stand-alone work or higher skilled profession work is better paid so they would be better paid.

04-02-2019 12:25pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Do you really think there are 23-year-old sitting around thinking its all grand let's not change anything?............

By nurses I was referring to the entire group not the 23 year old ones.
I'm sure the 23 year old ones would prefer for the pay increase being looked for be a non linear % across the board

But again, nurses (as a group) and the unions don't seem to want that

If the shtt shovelling was removed from their activites and done by heath care assistants we'd probably have more than enough nurses so the patient care would no longer be an issue so there'd be no issue

The current noise is over patient care iirc, not wages

Isn't it?

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 12:32pm

professore wrote: »

How the **** is the problem with the private sector workers? They don't have big powerful unions to look after them in general. The pay in the public sector is twice that in the private sector. What do you think private sector workers start on? And if its so great, why not work there yourself?

Why don’t you join a union and ask your colleagues to do the same?

04-02-2019 12:36pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Why don’t you join a union and ask your colleagues to do the same?

When given the choice most modern folk won't join a union as they see them as what they are; archaic, outdated and largely of no use.

04-02-2019 12:59pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Why don’t you join a union and ask your colleagues to do the same?

Was that of any use to the workers in SR Technic?

04-02-2019 1:04pm

salonfire wrote: »

Was that of any use to the workers in SR Technic?

Or the teachers

Who are looking on with interest at the nurses being mollycoddled (for the time being).

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 1:05pm

Augeo wrote: »

When given the choice most modern folk won't join a union as they see them as what they are; archaic, outdated and largely of no use.

Yet wages have stagnated completely while profits have skyrocketed and a race to the bottom has taken place across huge swathes of the workforce with falling pay and the introduction of precarious conditions.

I’m currently working with airport workers, security guards on a poverty wage, no overtime rate and no sick pay. This in an airport that has £32m after tax profit last year and a CEO on half a million pounds a year. They’ve organised and are balloting for strike action. Fair play to them.

It always makes me laugh when workers come out with “waaaaa I don’t have a union in my workplace so why should other workers have one” etc. Basically if you’re happy to get shafted that’s your own look out, but don’t criticise other workers who are willing to fight back.

gmisk · 04-02-2019 1:06pm

professore wrote: »

How the **** is the problem with the private sector workers? They don't have big powerful unions to look after them in general. The pay in the public sector is twice that in the private sector. What do you think private sector workers start on? And if its so great, why not work there yourself?

Where are you getting the fact that "The pay in the public sector is twice that in the private sector."
Is that for nurses or in general?

I can only really speak for myself.
I work in IT, if I took a similar role in the Private sector I would probably make an extra 20k a year (In fact I have been offered jobs at that level in last year or so).
But in meantime I moved departments to another role.
Generally at least in IT IMO you will get paid a good bit more in a comparable role in the private sector, but at this stage I am happy with the other benefits of public sector (e.g. flexitime) so i am not complaining.

BTW i joined union about 5 years ago, and they helped me to push through a move (the current department at the time were arguing the new role wasnt a promotion....despite it paying more....so were refusing to let me go).

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 1:07pm

salonfire wrote: »

Was that of any use to the workers in SR Technic?

We took 900 hospital cleaners out on strike in 2017 and won the London Living Wage, restoration of break times, an end to zero hours contracts and a weekend overpayment. A colleague of mine organised baggage handlers in Luton Airport and they won 8% payrise with the threat of strike action.

04-02-2019 1:07pm

FTA69 wrote: »

............... Basically if you’re happy to get shafted that’s your own look out, but don’t criticise other workers who are willing to fight back.

I'm a self employed one (ish) man show.
I've never been shafted and don't intend to start any day soon.

So you can direct your speel at someone else

Security guards not happy with their lot need to find a different job, it's a sh1t gig and paid accordingly.

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 1:09pm

Augeo wrote: »

I'm a self employed one (ish) man show.
I've never been shafted and don't intend to start any day soon.

So you can direct your speel at someone else

Grand. You’re a self-employed business owner so you’d have no need of a union presumably.

However your rhetoric about collective bargaining being outdated etc doesn’t ring true for low paid workers. So you can direct that speel at someone else.

04-02-2019 1:11pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Grand. You’re a self-employed business owner so you’d have no need of a union presumably.

However your rhetoric about collective bargaining being outdated etc doesn’t ring true for low paid workers. So you can direct that speel at someone else.

Not really, you are threatening hospitals and airports with strike action.
Try that with multinational manufacturer and they'll tell you to get fncked

FTA69 wrote: »

..................

I’m currently working with airport workers, security guards on a poverty wage, no overtime rate and no sick pay. This in an airport that has £32m after tax profit last year and a CEO on half a million pounds a year. They’ve organised and are balloting for strike action. Fair play to them.
....................

FTA69 wrote: »

We took 900 hospital cleaners out on strike in 2017 and won the London Living Wage, restoration of break times, an end to zero hours contracts and a weekend overpayment. A colleague of mine organised baggage handlers in Luton Airport and they won 8% payrise with the threat of strike action.

gmisk · 04-02-2019 1:15pm

Augeo wrote: »

Not really, you are threatening hospitals and airports with strike action.
Try that with multinational manufacturer and they'll tell you to get fncked

Didnt some tescos and lloyds pharmacy stores go on strike fairly recently?
And I think Pfizer are threatening too at the minute.

Greengrant · 04-02-2019 1:17pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Yet wages have stagnated completely while profits have skyrocketed and a race to the bottom has taken place across huge swathes of the workforce with falling pay and the introduction of precarious conditions.

I’m currently working with airport workers, security guards on a poverty wage, no overtime rate and no sick pay. This in an airport that has £32m after tax profit last year and a CEO on half a million pounds a year. They’ve organised and are balloting for strike action. Fair play to them.

It always makes me laugh when workers come out with “waaaaa I don’t have a union in my workplace so why should other workers have one” etc. Basically if you’re happy to get shafted that’s your own look out, but don’t criticise other workers who are willing to fight back.

Do you have statistics to support your assertion that wages are falling?

If someone doesn't believe they are paid enough they are free to hand in their notice or not sign the contract to begin with.

04-02-2019 1:19pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Grand. You’re a self-employed business owner so you’d have no need of a union presumably.

However your rhetoric about collective bargaining being outdated etc doesn’t ring true for low paid workers. So you can direct that speel at someone else.

Aren't you a great fella. I noticed that you are targeting places where you can can use the public to strike against.

Nip into your local independent business operating on slim margins and try your antics there. See how long it lasts.

04-02-2019 1:22pm

gmisk wrote: »

....
And I think Pfizer are threatening too at the minute.

What Pfizer plant?
There are no unions in Pfizer Grange Castle.
I think Pfizer are after announcing investment in Newbridge, folk there are hardly glum enough to threaten strike action you'd imagine.
All staff are very well paid too in both plants I would think.

gmisk · 04-02-2019 1:25pm

Augeo wrote: »

What Pfizer plant?
There are no unions in Pfizer Grange Castle.
I think Pfizer are after announcing investment in Newbridge, folk there are hardly glum enough to threaten strike action you'd imagine.
All staff are very well paid too in both plants I would think.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/pfizer-staff-set-to-strike-in-dispute-over-pensions-901591.html
Two cork plants in row over pensions - 01/02/18

Almost 400 workers in two of Cork’s Pfizer plants are to go on strike in little over a fortnight in a row over pensions.
Last week it emerged that Siptu members at Pfizer’s two pharmaceutical plants in Ringinskiddy and Little Island had voted overwhelmingly to reject Labour Court recommendations on the company’s plans to discontinue their defined benefit (DB) pension scheme.

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 1:29pm

Augeo wrote: »

Not really, you are threatening hospitals and airports with strike action.
Try that with multinational manufacturer and they'll tell you to get fncked

The hospital cleaners work for multinational giant Serco, the baggage handlers work for Menzies, another multinational. The majority of multinational plants in the UK and the continent have collective bargaining and unions present.

04-02-2019 1:30pm

gmisk wrote: »

..........

Almost 400 workers in two of Cork’s Pfizer plants are to go on strike in little over a fortnight in a row over pensions.............

Seems reasonable alright (not)..........."Pfizer had first proposed the introduction of a direct contribution (DC) pension scheme to replace non-contributory DB schemes in 2014. It said that would be for future accrual only, and it would continue to fund the existing DB schemes in accordance with its obligations"

04-02-2019 1:31pm

FTA69 wrote: »

The hospital cleaners work for multinational giant Serco, the baggage handlers work for Menzies, another multinational. The majority of multinational plants in the UK and the continent have collective bargaining and unions present.

So the hospital and airports wouldn't have been effected by the strikes :cool:
Well done so.

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 1:32pm

salonfire wrote: »

Aren't you a great fella. I noticed that you are targeting places where you can can use the public to strike against.

Nip into your local independent business operating on slim margins and try your antics there. See how long it lasts.

They weren't striking against "the public" they were challenging their immensely profitable private sector employers who were exploiting them and running them into the ground so they could make even more profit from publically-funded contracts.

These were workers who were being paid a below-living wage, had their breaks stripped and were about to be subjected to precarious zero-hour style working. Fair play to them for organising and fighting back. And the fact you'd sooner side with some predatory outsourcing company rather than decent people who are an integral part of our health services says a lot about you really.

Twenty Grand · 04-02-2019 1:41pm

gmisk wrote: »

Didnt some tescos and lloyds pharmacy stores go on strike fairly recently?
And I think Pfizer are threatening too at the minute.

Big MNC operators are usually on big money anyways to prevent them striking.
Lads I work go in with maybe only a leaving cert to a 40-50k job and near unlimited overtime.

gmisk · 04-02-2019 1:46pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Big MNC operators are usually on big money anyways to prevent them striking.
Lads I work go in with maybe only a leaving cert to a 40-50k job and near unlimited overtime.

I agree but I was responding to statement below, which clearly isnt true.

Not really, you are threatening hospitals and airports with strike action.
Try that with multinational manufacturer and they'll tell you to get fncked

omega man · 04-02-2019 1:46pm

Call a GE and be done with it.
Let the opposition parties propose how they'll fund a pay rise for nurses and the follow up PS claims along with hard brexit plans while they’re at it.

04-02-2019 1:47pm

FTA69 wrote: »

They weren't striking against "the public" they were challenging their immensely profitable private sector employers who were exploiting them and running them into the ground so they could make even more profit from publically-funded contracts.

These were workers who were being paid a below-living wage, had their breaks stripped and were about to be subjected to precarious zero-hour style working. Fair play to them for organising and fighting back. And the fact you'd sooner side with some predatory outsourcing company rather than decent people who are an integral part of our health services says a lot about you really.

The fact that you use places where you can strike against the public in an attempt to justify your Union says a lot about you.

Why not go into some of the unionized businesses that don't involve the public but have multiple competitors. Let's see if you are so boastful then.

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 1:52pm

salonfire wrote: »

The fact that you use places where you can strike against the public in an attempt to justify your Union says a lot about you.

Why not go into some of the unionized businesses that don't involve the public. Let's see if you are so boastful then.

Have done mate. I’ve organised poultry workers outside of London, Christmas 2017 I organised a large group of construction formworkers in Liverpool St to get their holiday pay (around £300k in total). I’ve worked with loads of different types of workers.

Basically it comes down to whether you believe that workers have the right to have a living wage or not, and if you do then you should blame exploitative and opportunistic contractors for not paying it when a dispute kicks off.

04-02-2019 1:55pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Have done mate. I’ve organised poultry workers outside of London, Christmas 2017 I organised a large group of construction formworkers in Liverpool St to get their holiday pay (around £300k in total). I’ve worked with loads of different types of workers.

Basically it comes down to whether you believe that workers have the right to have a living wage or not, and if you do then you should blame exploitative and opportunistic contractors for not paying it when a dispute kicks off.

And after you increase costs to businesses, you would be there to takeover in the case of any job losses?

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 1:57pm

Greengrant wrote: »

Do you have statistics to support your assertion that wages are falling?

If someone doesn't believe they are paid enough they are free to hand in their notice or not sign the contract to begin with.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-44455541

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2018/07/26/how-to-fix-stagnant-wages-dump-the-worlds-dumbest-idea/amp/

The whole chestnut of “jog on if you don’t like it” is rubbish, because unless workers collectivise then wages across those sectors will remain chronically low thus leading to lives of precarity and poverty. You can work 50 hours in London and still be below the poverty line, usually working for companies that make an absolute f*cking fortune. Why shouldn’t security guards or restaurant workers or cleaners earn a living wage? We need workers like them and they do a necessary and productive job so why should they be condemned to poverty so some outsourcing contractor like Serco or OCS can make even more profit (often from the public purse)

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 1:59pm

salonfire wrote: »

And after you increase costs to businesses, you would be there to takeover in the case of any job losses?

Weren’t any job losses in any successful dispute I’ve been involved in. Just a rebalance in the profits and wages scale. The idea companies have to rob holiday pay and pay the bare minimum poverty wage or they’re going to go belly up is nonsense to be honest.

04-02-2019 2:11pm

Augeo wrote: »

Seems reasonable alright (not)..........."Pfizer had first proposed the introduction of a direct contribution (DC) pension scheme to replace non-contributory DB schemes in 2014. It said that would be for future accrual only, and it would continue to fund the existing DB schemes in accordance with its obligations"

It will be interesting to see how the Pfizer one ends - but is will hardly encourage the company to expand (or even stay) there. The company and SIPTU both agreed to refer the matter to the Labour Court for arbitration and recommendation. The LC recommendation required compromise from both sides. The company accepted the recommendation but SIPTU rejected it and are now going for strike action.
Now just imagine if the Labour Court issued a recommendation for settlement in the nurses' dispute which INMO accepted and management rejected. There would be mass outrage across social media and the internet at this "outrageous behaviour".
Its not as if the recommended settlement is a measly one:
“The Labour Court recommendation's proposals are very generous including lump sums of up to €35K, company contributions of up to 15pc of pensionable pay, early transition incentives of up to an extra 14pc of pensionable pay per annum on top of company contributions, or for those who do not transition early, 3 to 7 extra years of accrual in the defined benefit schemes based on a colleague's age at 30 June 2018 and the opportunity for colleagues over 50 on 30 June 2018 to stay in the defined benefit scheme until such time as they retire or leave the company.
“The company would also commit to funding what is accrued already in the defined benefit schemes and would continue to do so at considerable cost, so colleagues benefit from what is held in their DB pension.”

Greengrant · 04-02-2019 2:28pm

FTA69 wrote: »

whole chestnut of “jog on if you don’t like it” is rubbish, because unless workers collectivise then wages across those sectors will remain chronically low thus leading to lives of precarity and poverty. You can work 50 hours in London and still be below the poverty line, usually working for companies that make an absolute f*cking fortune. Why shouldn’t security guards or restaurant workers or cleaners earn a living wage? We need workers like them and they do a necessary and productive job so why should they be condemned to poverty so some outsourcing contractor like Serco or OCS can make even more profit (often from the public purse)

Those links show that wages are continually rising, just not as fast as prior to the financial crisis. I suspect the gargantuan QE programmes around the globe are a factor in the slow growth of wages. If you want more money the opportunity is there, if you have valuable skills you will be rewarded. I doubled my salary in just over three years. In my last job when I didn't get a wage increase I simply left and got a 20k rise. You can't just be passive and expect money to come your way, you have to give employers a reason to pay you more.

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 2:33pm

Greengrant wrote: »

Those links show that wages are continually rising, just not as fast as prior to the financial crisis. I suspect the gargantuan QE programmes around the globe are a factor in the slow growth of wages. If you want more money the opportunity is there, if you have valuable skills you will be rewarded. I doubled my salary in just over three years. In my last job when I didn't get a wage increase I simply left and got a 20k rise. You can't just be passive and expect money to come your way, you have to give employers a reason to pay you more.

No they don’t mate, they specifically say wages are stagnating and often don’t even match inflation.

I don’t advocate being passive. I advocate collectivising and demanding more from employers. They tend to have a pressing reason to pay up more when they face a strike.

04-02-2019 2:35pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Weren’t any job losses in any successful dispute I’ve been involved in. Just a rebalance in the profits and wages scale. The idea companies have to rob holiday pay and pay the bare minimum poverty wage or they’re going to go belly up is nonsense to be honest.

Thanks for proving my point. Unions can be effective in profitable times, which I agree with.

When it comes to downturns in the economy and business start to close, unions are not worth it. As we saw a few years ago. That's why people in the private sector have turned away from them.

FTA69 · 04-02-2019 2:45pm

salonfire wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point. Unions can be effective in profitable times, which I agree with.

When it comes to downturns in the economy and business start to close, unions are not worth it. As we saw a few years ago. That's why people in the private sector have turned away from them.

Unions were systematically attacked with the advent of people like Reagan and Thatcher and the shift into a neo-liberal globalised system. Inequality has risen massively and a small minority make astronomical profits at the expense of wages.

In short, capital has far more power than labour and that’s a bad thing. Only collective bargaining and aggressive unions can redress that balance.

Greengrant · 04-02-2019 3:09pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Unions were systematically attacked with the advent of people like Reagan and Thatcher and the shift into a neo-liberal globalised system. Inequality has risen massively and a small minority make astronomical profits at the expense of wages.

In short, capital has far more power than labour and that’s a bad thing. Only collective bargaining and aggressive unions can redress that balance.

People are wealthier than ever on average, poor people today are better off than 20 years ago who were better off than poor people 40 years ago and so on. Let "greedy" people make as much money as they want, that brings jobs and innovation.

Elemonator · 04-02-2019 3:15pm

They likely deserve a reasonable rise but not overly so. I find it a bit crazy that it is characterised as "pay restoration" when it was some people's exorbitant wages in the boom times that caused many problems in the first place.

04-02-2019 3:19pm

Elemonator wrote: »

They likely deserve a reasonable rise but not overly so. I find it a bit crazy that it is characterised as "pay restoration" when it was some people's exorbitant wages in the boom times that caused many problems in the first place.

are you claiming that public sector wages caused ..... the economic crash

04-02-2019 3:26pm

FTA69 wrote: »

. Only collective bargaining and aggressive unions can redress that balance.

I would have thought that there is a considerable limitation as to what unions can achieve in a large part of the private sector. In a free trading environment larger companies can (and do) shift their investment elsewhere, if there bottom line is overly threatened. Even in most local industries there are limits.

Going back to the 1980s -even without Reagan and Thatcher, "aggressive" unions contributed handsomely to there own downfall. The once mighty British car industry was practically destroyed in the 70s and early 80s, characterised by strike after strike and refusal to adapt to changing practices and modernisation. As the strikes carried on, the actual cars turned out were away behind schedule, over-priced and badly assembled junk. The indigenous British car industry died (and the workers left unemployed) while the German car industry thrived. Once in the EU (open competition) failure to adapt meant death.

I am not saying that unions were the only factor but they contributed handsomely. Like almost everything else, unions can be both good and bad. When they have to much power (as they have in our public sector) the balance is towards the bad.

Amirani · 04-02-2019 3:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

are you claiming that public sector wages caused ..... the economic crash

They were a driver of a significant current budget deficit and the ensuing structural fiscal problems.

So the crash pretty much caused Government revenues to collapse from their unrealistic levels and then the public sector spending became a big problem.

04-02-2019 3:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

are you claiming that public sector wages caused ..... the economic crash

Not "caused" the crash - although the excess wage increases contributed to the inflating bubble lead up to the crash. But when the downturn happened it left us very exposed. Leaving the bank bailout aside, we were still grossly unable to pay for our day to day government spending out of our income. Ordinary people had built up debts based on incomes which were way above our capacity to afford. Adaptation to the reality of this was very painful, as we know.
Was it Warren Buffett who said "when the tide goes out you see who is swimming naked"? When the economic tide went out we were. Will we be still naked when the tide goes out again?

facehugger99 · 04-02-2019 3:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

are you claiming that public sector wages caused ..... the economic crash

They were a massive factor - I would say the biggest factor in the length and depth of the recession caused to the country.

Only a fool would claim otherwise.

The PS were also shielded from the worst of the crash while hundreds of thousands of private sector workers faced redundancy and emigration.

The bitching and moaning from the pampered PS brigade over the very minor cuts they had to 'endure' is nauseating as is the constant clamoring to get their snouts back into the trough as soon as the economy showed sign of improvement.

04-02-2019 3:43pm

im swimming as fast away from ye two as i can and i dont care if thats with or agin the tide tbh

Wanderer78 · 04-02-2019 3:57pm

1641 wrote:

Not "caused" the crash - although the excess wage increases contributed to the inflating bubble lead up to the crash. But when the downturn happened it left us very exposed. Leaving the bank bailout aside, we were still grossly unable to pay for our day to day government spending out of our income. Ordinary people had built up debts based on incomes which were way above our capacity to afford. Adaptation to the reality of this was very painful, as we know. Was it Warren Buffett who said "when the tide goes out you see who is swimming naked"? When the economic tide went out we were. Will we be still naked when the tide goes out again?

Public debt was actually slowly falling leading up to the crash, the rapid rise of private debt was one of the main causes of the crash, largely created by deregulation of the financial sector, flooding our economies with cheap credit, we all know this story!

04-02-2019 4:15pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Public debt was actually slowly falling leading up to the crash, the rapid rise of private debt was one of the main causes of the crash, largely created by deregulation of the financial sector, flooding our economies with cheap credit, we all know this story!

There was no one cause if the crash - but you have hit on one of them. Nevertheless, in Ireland we had a property bubble which was not prevalent in much of the rest of Europe. And the crash was worse here than in most other places. So we had our own unique factors at play.

Public debt was falling prior to the crash due to a hugh tax take from an economic bubble. Stamp duty was huge contributor to the tax take - it disappeared. Economic downturn internationally meant a large fall in corporation tax, related collapse in the private sector meant a collapse in income tax. It shows the folly of basing public spending on ever increasing taxes when the economy is going well without factoring in how it will be payed for when there is a downturn (which there always is) - never mind a crash.
Now imagine if we had used that temporary surge in tax in the boom to pay off our national debt in full and build up healthy reserves - run a surplus. We would have added less fuel to the inflating bubble for a start (thus lessening the extent of the crash) and would have faced much less serious cutbacks (and the associated pain and hardship) subsequently.
But we have been around this circuit many times before, Wanderer, so no point in repeating ourselves ?

04-02-2019 4:19pm

1641 wrote: »

..........Wanderer, so no point in repeating ourselves ?

Wanderer is on single track repeat as long as I'm on boards.

backspin. · 04-02-2019 4:25pm

Greengrant wrote: »

People are wealthier than ever on average, poor people today are better off than 20 years ago who were better off than poor people 40 years ago and so on. Let "greedy" people make as much money as they want, that brings jobs and innovation.

Are they, I was just thinking earlier of a neighbor of mine, a lorry driver, wife never worked and he managed to raise 4 kids and owns a decent house. That would be very difficult to do starting out now.

04-02-2019 4:28pm

backspin. wrote: »

Are they, I was just thinking earlier of a neighbor of mine, a lorry driver, wife never worked and he managed to raise 4 kids and owns a decent house. That would be very difficult to do starting out now.

Try it in the 80s when there was fooook all lorry driving jobs going and emmigration to the UK and the USA was rampant.

backspin. · 04-02-2019 4:30pm

Augeo wrote: »

Try it in the 80s when there was fooook all lorry driving jobs going and emmigration to the UK and the USA was rampant.

It was the 80's.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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