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Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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    #1142
    Thephantomsmask
    Registered Users Posts: 1,356 ✭✭✭Thephantomsmask


    If this were a strike to get rid of the two tier pay system that punishes *all* new entrant employees then I could get behind it 100% but not a blanket increase for all nurses while still leaving new staff on a lower payscale. The INMO were the main ones quite happy to pull the ladder up on new entrants, to protect existing members interests, when this system came in yet members on the old payscale still expect a pay rise over and above the staff on the lower pay scale. Nope, I don't agree with that.

    We all lost money due to FEMPI, the country can't afford to pay us all what we used to get, maybe the INMO could divert that energy to really helping the newbies get pay parity instead of thinking of me fein for a change.

    I am not impressed with the way the HSE blanket cancelled all out patient appointments with no local consultation. I am an allied health professional, there is no nursing involvement in my job, no reason that I cannot work as normal, yet all of my patients have been cancelled for the day. Why? There is an absolute waste of resources across multiple disciplines, who are not on strike and available to do their job all around the country today because of the HSE's response to one specific group. It leaves a sour taste tbh that I am being dragged into INMO action by default, our waiting lists being dragged out will end up bolstering their position, when I just want to get on with my work.


    TL:DR get rid of the two tier pay scheme and bring back pay parity for all new entrants, not just nurses. The rest of us need to accept the government just can't pay us our old salary.


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    #1143
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    After waiting a couple of years for an appointment with a consultant, I took a relative to an evening appointment (after 6pm) in Ardkeen outpatients. There was ONE nurse, ONE receptionist and 4 consultants on duty. They went through the patients in record time. Why can’t this be the norm?

    Personally I feel that nurses are paid enough. They are let down by bureaucracy and lack of common sense.


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    #1144
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    Whenever people think of the pensions/conditions that public sector staff get they always have hark back to the days when public sector workers got defined benefit pensions and almost constant pay increases.

    Those days are gone and have been for quite a while but its this myth that helps so many arguments.

    If you are 50+ in the public sector/semi states and have been there for 20 15 years + then yeah you are probably on a sweet deal.

    If you arent one of the above but still in the public sec/semi states then you are not- you are on a highly reduced pay with substantially reduced T&Cs relative to the older guy/gal sitting next to you.

    A lot of the seasoned veterans in both industries have more or less downed tools as their pay has been capped and progression opportunites have dwindled- so this lumps extra work on the newer workers as their only way of getting up the ladder is take on a large workload.

    The public sector/semi states are hemorrhaging staff of a certain demographic but it goes unnoticed in absolute terms as none of the oul lads are goin anywhere cos they wont get half of their current deal elsewhere.

    In a few years the public sector /semi states is going to consist of mainly people about 3 years from retirement and grads- unless they try to fix it.

    My suggestion- try introduce a similar system to that late entry loading in the health insurance, but flip it, so that once your salary/pension hits a certain level that it gets hit with a levy that goes back into a pool to increase the wages of the bottom end staff.

    It might sound like it will never work but something has to be done- if people disagree then try come up a suggestion yourself.

    Barring this- we'll just end up privatising everything


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    #1145
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,845 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Poor_old_gill wrote:
    Barring this- we'll just end up privatising everything


    Whereby, the majority would probably lose


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    #1146
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Whereby, the majority would probably lose

    Exactly! But at least they'd be happy that "the country wasnt being held to ransom by those damn public sector workers"


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    #1147
    autumnbelle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭autumnbelle


    I dont think they will get it, the goverment arent going to agree to a pay increase with the uncertainty of brexit ahead


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    #1148
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    autumnbelle wrote: »
    I dont think they will get it, the goverment arent going to agree to a pay increase with the uncertainty of brexit ahead

    TD's & Senators salaries went up last October/November.

    Which was quite ironic considering that quite a few Senators had previously campaigned for the Seanad to be shut down to save money.


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    #1149
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Poor_old_gill wrote: »
    TD's & Senators salaries went up last October/November.

    Which was quite ironic considering that quite a few Senators had previously campaigned for the Seanad to be shut down to save money.

    Their salaries went up as part of the same public sector pay deal which all public sector workers signed up to.


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    #1150
    TheRiverman
    Registered Users Posts: 6,075 ✭✭✭TheRiverman


    The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »
    €30,000 starting rising to €45,000 over 8-10 years. I'm sorry but that's about right for someone making close to 0 clinical decisions.

    But Nurses are the gold standard for whatever reason. It's political suicide to stand against them. Whatever they demand they'll have the support of the public.

    You obviously have never worked in a hospital Emergency Department or on a ward,or never have been a patient in a hospital.


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    #1151
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    TheRiverman wrote: »
    You obviously have never worked in a hospital Emergency Department or on a ward,or never have been a patient in a hospital.

    Those working in A&E departments get an additional payment on top of the figures quoted I understand.


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    #1152
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Their salaries went up as part of the same public sector pay deal which all public sector workers signed up to.

    Refer to my previous post about moving towards a pay equalisation structure.
    If they are part of this agreement then surely their travel expenses/etc should be removed.

    Let me guess- you're are just one of those pointlessly obtuse people on here who argues over everything for the sake of satisfying their own general life unhappiness- good stuff.


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    #1153
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    autumnbelle wrote: »
    I dont think they will get it, the goverment arent going to agree to a pay increase with the uncertainty of brexit ahead

    We just can’t afford it, it’s as simple as that. They may look at modest pay restoration for junior grades but anything more just isn’t a runner.


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    #1154
    Outkast_IRE
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    Having reviewed the payscale I think the wages are right and fair.

    If they upskill and move up the ladder their salaries can be considerable.

    I would be all in favour of their conditions being improved , knocking any unpaid overtime on the head etc. I think that is the real gripe in the background for many.


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    #1155
    storker
    Registered Users Posts: 5,645 ✭✭✭storker


    mad muffin wrote: »
    If the TD’s can give themselves a handsome pay rise. I see no reason why nurses shouldn’t get a well deserved rise.

    This is the nub of it. The nurses are supposed to put the country first ahead of the own wishes. Where is the example of the altruism that they're supposed to be displaying? Who is setting it? Nobody, that's who. We've had the look-after-number-one philosophy rammed down our throats for so long that everyone is at it. Why shouldn't the nurses agitate for what they want too?


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    #1156
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    mad muffin wrote: »
    If the TD’s can give themselves a handsome pay rise. I see no reason why nurses shouldn’t get a well deserved rise.


    TDs did not "give themselves" a handsome pay rise. Their pay is linked directly to public sector pay rates - one reason for this being that they cannot give themselves special rises (or be prevented from getting a rise when others are doing so). THe public service unions negotiated a general pay rise (or restoration) - the the TDs got this the same as others in the public sector.


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    #1157
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    mad muffin wrote: »
    If the TD’s can give themselves a handsome pay rise. I see no reason why nurses shouldn’t get a well deserved rise.

    Again, the TDs did not give them a payrise.

    All public servants, TDs and nurses included, are in the same process to restore pay.

    Ministers actually agreed to not give themselves the pay restoration.


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    #1158
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    1641 wrote: »
    TDs did not "give themselves" a handsome pay rise. Their pay is linked directly to public sector pay rates - one reason for this being that they cannot give themselves special rises (or be prevented from getting a rise when others are doing so). THe public service unions negotiated a general pay rise (or restoration) - the the TDs got this the same as others in the public sector.

    But you're just looking at headline statement and regurgitating it without actually looking behind the figures or providing any analysis of the agreement.

    The agreement is just a subset of TD's pay- they still get large expense payments for travel, etc.

    Also its the way the agreement has been negotiated- a % of a higher number will always be a higher and thus never contributes towards pay equalisation- its a regressive agreement in terms of pay equalisation, essentially.

    I just really cant fathom how people can throw out the type of explanation you've attempted- it's devoid of any real engagement in the question- just dont bother answering if you aren't going to engage your brain


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    #1159
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    It isn't happening though. It has not happened. That is part of the reason for the strike - the government have ignored them cause they wouldn't strike previously

    Pay restoration is happening.

    Under the LRA and the 2018-2020 deal, all PS are getting cuts in PRD and increases in pay.


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    #1160
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Poor_old_gill wrote: »
    B
    Also its the way the agreement has been negotiated- a % of a higher number will always be a higher and thus never contributes towards pay equalisation- its a regressive agreement in terms of pay equalisation, essentially.

    Yes, % pay changes do tend to widen pay gaps.

    Note that one pay restoration under the LRA was +1,000 for all staff, on 1-April 2017.


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    #1161
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I think they will eventually but it’ll be a long drawn out process. They certainly deserve it.

    I would suggest though that the Health Service in general needs an overhaul and simply paying nurses and midwives more won’t fix it.

    Anyone who thinks there’s an easy fix here such as ‘tax the rich’ ‘cut TDS salaries ‘ or change the government’ is at best woefully naive.


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    #1162
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Hear Stephen Donnelly on Newstalk- since when did a Nursing qualification become comparable to Physiotherapy?
    This is insanity. This is like comparing an Accounts assistant with the Senior Financial Controller and saying they should be paid the same. No way a Nursing qualification is the same thing


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    #1163
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Poor_old_gill wrote: »
    Refer to my previous post about moving towards a pay equalisation structure.
    If they are part of this agreement then surely their travel expenses/etc should be removed.

    Let me guess- you're are just one of those pointlessly obtuse people on here who argues over everything for the sake of satisfying their own general life unhappiness- good stuff.

    Are you f*cking serious? You edited your post to include the piece in bold?

    You really want to take that approach on a discussion forum. As an often used phrase in the last few years. You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.


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    #1164
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    Poor_old_gill wrote: »
    But you're just looking at headline statement and regurgitating it without actually looking behind the figures or providing any analysis of the agreement.

    The agreement is just a subset of TD's pay- they still get large expense payments for travel, etc.

    Also its the way the agreement has been negotiated- a % of a higher number will always be a higher and thus never contributes towards pay equalisation- its a regressive agreement in terms of pay equalisation, essentially.

    I just really cant fathom how people can throw out the type of explanation you've attempted- it's devoid of any real engagement in the question- just dont bother answering if you aren't going to engage your brain


    Thanks for the civil and constructive engagement!



    The pay rise was as negotiated by the public service unions - and it wasn't a straight percentage for all. Staff earning up to €30k got a seperate 1% in January 2019 and staff earning up to €32k wil get a seperate 0.5% in January 2020. They also get the same increases as other grades.


    However, I suspect boring details are beside the point - it must be my poor brain. Good brains think like yours, of course.


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    #1165
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Are you f*cking serious? You edited your post to include the piece in bold?

    You really want to take that approach on a discussion forum. As an often used phrase in the last few years. You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

    Your post was just a general statement without even a shred of analysis or understanding of current public sector pay agreement.

    Its pointless trying to even reason if thats your starting point.

    Relating the increase in TD's pay to that of an average public sector working is akin to justifying an increase in interest rates with the logic that although loads of people will end up paying more on their debts/mortgages- those with savings will make it back.


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    #1166
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    1641 wrote: »
    Thanks for the civil and constructive engagement!



    The pay rise was as negotiated by the public service unions - and it wasn't a straight percentage for all. Staff earning up to €30k got a seperate 1% in January 2019 and staff earning up to €32k wil get a seperate 0.5% in January 2020. They also get the same increases as other grades.


    However, I suspect boring details are beside the point - it must be my poor brain. Good brains think like yours, of course.

    Your last post was implying that the increase for TD's was equivalent to that of public sector workers- when its just not as TD's get a multitude of side payments- along with extremely long holidays and large pensions.

    I presume you are moving off that point so and attempting to go on to a new one?

    And when discussing the pay agreement that was negotiated- it clearly hasnt worked as the turnover of nursing staff is extremely high as they are leaving the system and emigrating.

    So the options are- carry on with a pay agreement that isnt working or look to change it- the latter is the better solution, surely


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    #1167
    jay0109
    Registered Users Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭jay0109


    road_high wrote: »
    Hear Stephen Donnelly on Newstalk- since when did a Nursing qualification become comparable to Physiotherapy?
    This is insanity. This is like comparing an Accounts assistant with the Senior Financial Controller and saying they should be paid the same. No way a Nursing qualification is the same thing

    This was always going to happen once Nurses were put on a 4yr degree programme.
    As sure as night follows day


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    #1168
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    jay0109 wrote: »
    This was always going to happen once Nurses were put on a 4yr degree programme.
    As sure as night follows day

    That's very true but it would be hard to row that back now.


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    #1169
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Poor_old_gill wrote: »
    You're post was just a general statement without even a shred of analysis or understanding of current public sector pay agreement.

    Its pointless trying to even reason if thats your starting point.

    Relating the increase in TD's pay to that of an average public sector working is akin to justifying an increase in interest rates with the logic that although loads of people will end up paying more on their debts/mortgages- those with savings will make it back.

    I pointed out a fact in relation to your statement. Maybe go and read about percentages, why they are used and how.
    Your posts are the quintessential 'but what about the gubbernent" strawman.

    You think this discussion only started when you joined the thread?
    Read my posts on here if you want to know my opinion. You can start with post #1044 if you wish.


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    #1170
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    The is talk of the government/HSE suing the unions its possibly a tactic by the government, but it is interesting because this is not playing ou the way there things usually do, its not the usual bit of a dance between the government and unions of you stepped out and I stepped in again until it's all resolved.

    It will be interesting to see how this one pans out.


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    #1171
    Poor_old_gill
    Registered Users Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭Poor_old_gill


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I pointed out a fact in relation to your statement. Maybe go and read about percentages, why they are used and how.
    Your posts are the quintessential 'but what about the gubbernent" strawman.

    You think this discussion only started when you joined the thread?
    Read my posts on here if you want to know my opinion. You can start with post #1044 if you wish.

    Did you come up with that 'gubbernent' one yourself? It's very good.

    There's not any attempt to use a strawman here- there is a pay agreement that is encouraging staff to leave the system so surely it's not working.


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