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False rape accusation...who would you believe?
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Silentcorner wrote: »But then we have to ask, is all rape the same? Is all sexual assault the same...
I don't have the answer to that by the way.
I do.
Not all rapes are the same; in severity or otherwise.
Not all sexual assaults are the same; in severity or otherwise.
Different crimes are not the same. The crime of rape is not the same as a false accusation of rape and both should be considered seperatly.
I think that should be obvious to all.0 -
If that's true, I'm sure everyone would agree it should be changed.Silentcorner wrote:There is nothing on the statute books about false rape accusations.
I think many/most politicians would be wary of pushing too hard for legislation. A lot of people want the problem of false accusations brushed under the carpet.
I don't believe we live in a patriarchal society where decisions are routinely made to suit men. I think this is one example.0 -
I do.
Not all rapes are the same; in severity or otherwise.
Not all sexual assaults are the same; in severity or otherwise.
Different crimes are not the same. The crime of rape is not the same as a false accusation of rape and both should be considered seperatly.
I think that should be obvious to all.
i course the crimes are diferent.
but a false rape claim should carry a very similar punishment. it is a very serious crime probably one of the worst crimes you could do to someone0 -
I'm not sure that they should receive exactly the same sentence. However I think a strong argument can be made that the severity of the punishment for rape and similar crimes should probably influence the severity of punishment for false accusations.I do.
Not all rapes are the same; in severity or otherwise.
Not all sexual assaults are the same; in severity or otherwise.
Different crimes are not the same. The crime of rape is not the same as a false accusation of rape and both should be considered seperatly.
I think that should be obvious to all.
Falsely accusing someone of stealing €10 say and falsely accusing someone of sexual assault or rape could both be seen as very similar: lies. But that doesn't mean the punishments should be the same for the false accusations.
Currently I get the impression the punishments for false accusations of sexual assault and rape tend to be quite weak and formal discussions about punishments tend not to look how badly can affect people (usually men).
I find it quite unsatisfactory the way some people tend to want tough punishments for men and light ones for women. For example, the new domestic violence laws make having had relationship with the victim an aggravating factor, but when women injure and sometimes kill their men suddenly people want to make lots of excuses and basically it seems having a previous relationship is seen more as a mitigating factor. I can accept that some people are left-wing in terms of the law and order and others are right-wing but I find it very frustrating the way people become left-wing when it's punishment for females generally, and right-wing when it's punishment for males.0 -
the_pen_turner wrote: »i course the crimes are diferent.
but a false rape claim should carry a very similar punishment. it is a very serious crime probably one of the worst crimes you could do to someone
I can hardly imagine a situation where being accused of X is as bad as being a victim of X.
And definitely not rape.0 -
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.. also I agree with wanting more equal treatment for men in how we are are treated in the justice system.
I'd prefer not to hitch my wagon with rapists.0 -
I can hardly imagine a situation where being accused of X is as bad as being a victim of X.
And definitely not rape.
statitory rape for example . the victim could be a very willing recipient and the sex ofender too
so being acused of having sex with a child would be a lot worse that having consentual sex (albe it legally not consentual) with an adult
why do they have to be conected. falsy acusing someone of rape is very serious . it can (and probably does) hae very serious consequenses for the victim .0 -
I can hardly imagine a situation where being accused of X is as bad as being a victim of X.
And definitely not rape.
I don't get this statement, is it a lack of understanding that the accusation and prosecution of an innocent person for rape is a terrible thing?
I honestly believe that I'd rather be butt fxuked by bubba once ! than be convicted for raping some young wan and doing jail (probably get butt fxuked) and having everyone hate me forever and be on the sex offenders list
So in that case I'd rather be raped than accused of rape
But a woman who never has to worry about false accusation of rape can't see that I suppose,0 -
So heres what the metoo era has given us :
Rugby player found not guilty of rape - man bad, court lied
Man guilty of rape - man bad, court correct
Woman lied about rape - man bad, court lied0 -
Eric Cartman wrote: »So heres what the metoo era has given us :
Rugby player found not guilty of rape - man bad, court lied
Man guilty of rape - man bad, court correct
Woman lied about rape - man bad, court lied
Not to mention all the peoples lives who have been ruined by unproven claims who will never make it into the media. Metoo gave license to gossip and mob rule along with cancel culture all of which can occur outside the perception of most people. I know social circles which have imploded because of the claims made through the metoo movement, and the mob mentality that goes along with it.
No trial, no jury, no investigation. Simply guilty without evidence... a life ruined.0 -
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the_pen_turner wrote: »statitory rape for example . the victim could be a very willing recipient and the sex ofender too
so being acused of having sex with a child would be a lot worse that having consentual sex (albe it legally not consentual) with an adult
why do they have to be conected. falsy acusing someone of rape is very serious . it can (and probably does) hae very serious consequenses for the victim .
Rape is a violent crime and handled by the criminal court. A false claim is ‘wasting police time’ and a minor crime but could be followed by a reputational damage claim in the civil court maybe a loss of future earnings etc...0 -
Potatoeman wrote: »Rape is a violent crime and handled by the criminal court. A false claim is ‘wasting police time’ and minor crime but could be followed by a reputational damage claim in the civil court maybe a loss of future earnings etc...
complete rubish.
a false rape claim is an matitius and viscious attack on the victim and an attempt to ruin their good name . it is an atempt to distroy the victim. the consequenses to the victim are very real and life changing. an acusation like that never goes away. and that is ony if they are provn inocent . if they are found guilty then ts a lot worse. sex ofenders register, jail time etc0 -
the_pen_turner wrote: »complete rubish.
a false rape claim is an matitius and viscious attack on the victim and an attempt to ruin their good name . it is an atempt to distroy the victim. the consequenses to the victim are very real and life changing. an acusation like that never goes away. and that is ony if they are provn inocent . if they are found guilty then ts a lot worse. sex ofenders register, jail time etc
I fully support you in your plan to change the criminal justice system. So how are you going to do it?0 -
Yeah, as a man I used to think like this.the_pen_turner wrote: »i course the crimes are diferent.
but a false rape claim should carry a very similar punishment. it is a very serious crime probably one of the worst crimes you could do to someone
But then I had a look at the impact of rape accusations on peoples' lives. And you know, it's not actually the world-ending thing that we traditionally tell ourselves it is.
It is no doubt humiliating and deeply upsetting. Mentally difficult and all the rest.
But it's far from life-destroying. Look at the Belfast rape trial. Paddy Jackson is now back playing rugby professionally and earning a great wage. And that wasn't even a false rape allegation. So even when a plausible rape allegation is made, someone's life isn't destroyed. Paddy Jackson's career was "disrupted" by it, and that's about it. Whatever reputational damage has been suffered, is small and short-lived.
The worst part about rape allegations is the personal relationships that it poisons - for the accused and the accuser. Regardless of the truth, some relationships will break down and be lost forever.
Like I say, I too used to feel that a false rape allegation was indeed a devastating, life-destroying crime against a man. On reflection, in fact it doesn't seem to be. After the intial fallout everyone moves on, including the accused.
It should be treated as a serious crime. But it's not as serious as rape. It's not even close.0 -
silverharp wrote: »why does she have anonymity?
Really don’t know why she still had anonymity after she is being sentenced and reporting bans lifted.0 -
not sure i agree with that. once those alagations are made it will always be hanging over you.Yeah, as a man I used to think like this.
But then I had a look at the impact of rape accusations on peoples' lives. And you know, it's not actually the world-ending thing that we traditionally tell ourselves it is.
It is no doubt humiliating and deeply upsetting. Mentally difficult and all the rest.
But it's far from life-destroying. Look at the Belfast rape trial. Paddy Jackson is now back playing rugby professionally and earning a great wage. And that wasn't even a false rape allegation. So even when a plausible rape allegation is made, someone's life isn't destroyed. Paddy Jackson's career was "disrupted" by it, and that's about it. Whatever reputational damage has been suffered, is small and short-lived.
The worst part about rape allegations is the personal relationships that it poisons - for the accused and the accuser. Regardless of the truth, some relationships will break down and be lost forever.
Like I say, I too used to feel that a false rape allegation was indeed a devastating, life-destroying crime against a man. On reflection, in fact it doesn't seem to be. After the intial fallout everyone moves on, including the accused.
It should be treated as a serious crime. But it's not as serious as rape. It's not even close.
as for the paddy jackson case. the fact it was so public helps him. everyone knows he is inocent. some dont choose to believe it but all the facts are there for everyone to see
if that was an ordinary case im not sure his name would be cleared as much as it is. even the fact we are taalking about it now shows the effect it can have. this will always be following him around0 -
Kind of horrifying to see this thread. I know several people who were raped. I had to give a statement to police about one friend.
Nothing happened to the guy. He DID rape someone and he is doing just fine. Most of them are.
You have to remember most victims don't report it because it's so difficult for anything to come of it.
If it happens in private and you don't the right kind of injuries, or you wait too long and the evidence is gone, you have a very weak case.
The person who raped you will always claim it was consensual. Because if there's no proof, or clear indication it wasn't, nothing happens.
The thing people don't like to hear is that at least some people who claim to be falsely accused ARE actually rapists who know what they did. It's the easiest defense - play the victim.
Of course false accusations happen but I do believe they are are rare because there is nothing to gain from it. We don't worry about people walking into garda stations and saying a lad they don't like assaulted them in a non sexual way. No one here can imagine doing that to a guy, even one they hated - because it doesn't make sense. Inviting the police to comb over a fabricated crime is nothing but bringing trouble on yourself.
Now go look at some of the convicted rape cases in the news.
In so many cases where there is CCTV, injuries, even witnesses - those accused of rape always say they had consensual sex.
Most rapes happen with people you know, People you are in relationships with, friends, behind closed doors. They prey on you when you are drunk or sleeping. Or they don't stop when you tell them too.0 -
the_pen_turner wrote: »i course the crimes are diferent.
but a false rape claim should carry a very similar punishment. it is a very serious crime probably one of the worst crimes you could do to someone
I disagree.
1. The crime you are describing is libel. It already exists.
2. No one here is saying how you PROVE a false conviction. Most instances of rape will not have the evidence for a prosecution to go anywhere. The only way prove an accusation is false to the same extent that we attempt to prove it is true, is to have further time and money spent on a police investigation where it must be proven that the accuser was knowingly lying. Which, even if it happened - is not usually going to be possible.
3. Considering the disregard people in this thread have for protecting actual rape victims, and making it possibly to report crimes, such laws would only serve to dissuade rape victims, leaving more rapists on the streets, and increasing rape over all.
4. Even in this thread we see a lack of evidence that men's lives are being ruined. We hear about it being hard on him, but these men still go onto have families, kids and careers. A lot of rape victims get PTSD, anxiety, struggle to ever have relationships with men or normal sexual relationships. Many attempt suicide.
5. Most instances or rape are not strangers in dark alleys. and as such its possible that rape cases exist where neither party is entirely wrong. They disagree over whether consent was there. This is why an honest belief of consent is a defense. But we also know that psychologically freezing is defense mechanism along with fight or flight. I believe this is one of the biggest reasons we have men claiming they were falsely accused - when the accuser absolutely does not believe themselves to be lying, because they are not.
Instances, often where alcohol is involved where the accuser does honestly believe the accused knew they didn't want it. They were unresponsive, incoherent, they froze, they indicated that they were uncomfortable or in pain and actually thought the other person knew they didn't want it.
Now the accused might have not looked, or cared much about any of these clues (which is why consent is important, and active consent will save many men from this stress). They didn't notice, didn't pay attention, didn't hear her, thought that was normal etc etc.
The accused blames the accuser - "if she didn't want it she would have fought harder! She must have just changed her mind". Is the assumption they come to, because most people don't want to consider that their selfishness, callousness and plain stupidity made them deeply hurt another person.0 -
Yeah, as a man I used to think like this.
But then I had a look at the impact of rape accusations on peoples' lives. And you know, it's not actually the world-ending thing that we traditionally tell ourselves it is.
It is no doubt humiliating and deeply upsetting. Mentally difficult and all the rest.
But it's far from life-destroying. Look at the Belfast rape trial. Paddy Jackson is now back playing rugby professionally and earning a great wage. And that wasn't even a false rape allegation. So even when a plausible rape allegation is made, someone's life isn't destroyed. Paddy Jackson's career was "disrupted" by it, and that's about it. Whatever reputational damage has been suffered, is small and short-lived.
The worst part about rape allegations is the personal relationships that it poisons - for the accused and the accuser. Regardless of the truth, some relationships will break down and be lost forever.
Like I say, I too used to feel that a false rape allegation was indeed a devastating, life-destroying crime against a man. On reflection, in fact it doesn't seem to be. After the intial fallout everyone moves on, including the accused.
It should be treated as a serious crime. But it's not as serious as rape. It's not even close.
I have very little knowledge of that case, but wasn't the argument that she was drunk and could not consent?0 -
Potatoeman wrote: »Really don’t know why she still had anonymity after she is being sentenced and reporting bans lifted.
You can find her name online, but no media are reporting it.
Imo, let the past stay the past in regards to her.0 -
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Noodleworm wrote: »I disagree.
5. Most instances or rape are not strangers in dark alleys. and as such its possible that rape cases exist where neither party is entirely wrong. They disagree over whether consent was there. This is why an honest belief of consent is a defense. But we also know that psychologically freezing is defense mechanism along with fight or flight. I believe this is one of the biggest reasons we have men claiming they were falsely accused - when the accuser absolutely does not believe themselves to be lying, because they are not.
.
Yeah, I really don't like these vague arguments about consent. It's hard to argue against as there is nothing really to argue against, and it is pretty bad if you have to change the notion of consent to show that somebody has been raped.0 -
Die Hard 2019 wrote: »I don't get this statement, is it a lack of understanding that the accusation and prosecution of an innocent person for rape is a terrible thing?
I honestly believe that I'd rather be butt fxuked by bubba once ! than be convicted for raping some young wan and doing jail (probably get butt fxuked) and having everyone hate me forever and be on the sex offenders list
So in that case I'd rather be raped than accused of rape
But a woman who never has to worry about false accusation of rape can't see that I suppose,
Hit the nail on the head. And I am definetly getting defensiveness in a lot of the arguments agaisnt treating the crimes the same.0 -
Noodleworm wrote: »I disagree.
1. The crime you are describing is libel. It already exists.
2. No one here is saying how you PROVE a false conviction. Most instances of rape will not have the evidence for a prosecution to go anywhere. The only way prove an accusation is false to the same extent that we attempt to prove it is true, is to have further time and money spent on a police investigation where it must be proven that the accuser was knowingly lying. Which, even if it happened - is not usually going to be possible.
3. Considering the disregard people in this thread have for protecting actual rape victims, and making it possibly to report crimes, such laws would only serve to dissuade rape victims, leaving more rapists on the streets, and increasing rape over all.
4. Even in this thread we see a lack of evidence that men's lives are being ruined. We hear about it being hard on him, but these men still go onto have families, kids and careers. A lot of rape victims get PTSD, anxiety, struggle to ever have relationships with men or normal sexual relationships. Many attempt suicide.
5. Most instances or rape are not strangers in dark alleys. and as such its possible that rape cases exist where neither party is entirely wrong. They disagree over whether consent was there. This is why an honest belief of consent is a defense. But we also know that psychologically freezing is defense mechanism along with fight or flight. I believe this is one of the biggest reasons we have men claiming they were falsely accused - when the accuser absolutely does not believe themselves to be lying, because they are not.
Instances, often where alcohol is involved where the accuser does honestly believe the accused knew they didn't want it. They were unresponsive, incoherent, they froze, they indicated that they were uncomfortable or in pain and actually thought the other person knew they didn't want it.
Now the accused might have not looked, or cared much about any of these clues (which is why consent is important, and active consent will save many men from this stress). They didn't notice, didn't pay attention, didn't hear her, thought that was normal etc etc.
The accused blames the accuser - "if she didn't want it she would have fought harder! She must have just changed her mind". Is the assumption they come to, because most people don't want to consider that their selfishness, callousness and plain stupidity made them deeply hurt another person.
I don't disagree with any of that except that libel laws arnt enough. This needs to be a criminal matter the same as attacking someone
I know it is very hard to prove a false rape claim , bit if it can be proven then it should be prosecuted as harshly as posible0 -
No, not in that case. The fundamental argument was over consent and whether it had been given. The accused said they believed it had, the accuser said it hadn't.Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »I have very little knowledge of that case, but wasn't the argument that she was drunk and could not consent?
Drunkeness was continually brought up as a factor, but I don't believe "too drunk to consent" was the prosecution's case.0 -
No, not in that case. The fundamental argument was over consent and whether it had been given. The accused said they believed it had, the accuser said it hadn't.
Drunkeness was continually brought up as a factor, but I don't believe "too drunk to consent" was the prosecution's case.
I dunno Seamus, I was reading up a little and it doesn't sound very plausible to me. I'd even go as far to say it is most probably a false allegation based on the evidence.
It's a very dangerous slope to legally say 'a lack of a verbal yes to every act means it's a no and is rape'.
Edit: Do you have a link to the prosecutions case as I can only find the defence's arguments0 -
Intentional False accusations where the person is doing it out of of pure spite or malice is one of the worst things you can do to another human being especially today with the spread of social media. I`m not talking about cases where people have different accounts and opinions of an event that actually took place and alcohol or drugs are involved but a clear case of false allegations. I also believe every case is unique and people rarely read the actual facts in these cases they just repeat what they see on social media0
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Noodleworm wrote: »Kind of horrifying to see this thread. I know several people who were raped. I had to give a statement to police about one friend.
Nothing happened to the guy. He DID rape someone and he is doing just fine. Most of them are.
You have to remember most victims don't report it because it's so difficult for anything to come of it.
If it happens in private and you don't the right kind of injuries, or you wait too long and the evidence is gone, you have a very weak case.
The person who raped you will always claim it was consensual. Because if there's no proof, or clear indication it wasn't, nothing happens.
The thing people don't like to hear is that at least some people who claim to be falsely accused ARE actually rapists who know what they did. It's the easiest defense - play the victim.
Of course false accusations happen but I do believe they are are rare because there is nothing to gain from it. We don't worry about people walking into garda stations and saying a lad they don't like assaulted them in a non sexual way. No one here can imagine doing that to a guy, even one they hated - because it doesn't make sense. Inviting the police to comb over a fabricated crime is nothing but bringing trouble on yourself.
Now go look at some of the convicted rape cases in the news.
In so many cases where there is CCTV, injuries, even witnesses - those accused of rape always say they had consensual sex.
Most rapes happen with people you know, People you are in relationships with, friends, behind closed doors. They prey on you when you are drunk or sleeping. Or they don't stop when you tell them too.
Unfortunately this topic is a can of worms that no one wishes to open, but we are dealing with one of the most serious crimes on the statue book, due process, and the implications of false allegations.
These all need to be discussed rationally as cases are going to come upon us thick and fast over the next few years, no one should be shamed out of expressing an opinion on it, it is too important a topic.
Victims of rape can feel rightly aggrieved by the conviction rate of sexual assault/rape.
People can also feel rightly aggrieved by the fact that boys can be convicted of statutory rape and a girl can't, or that we do not even have a crime on the statue books for making up a false rape allegation, which can destroy a man's marriage/life/relationship with his kids.
I don't have the answers, do you think our society has the ability to discuss this or do you think we should hand control to some other entity like The Church or The UN?
Regarding how rare false allegations are, they are a lot more common than you think, I'm sure we all have anecdotal accounts that back up our respective opinions, but we should all be looking at the Title IX kangaroo court system (in place since 2011 in the US on a huge number of US campuses) for data but it is extremely hard to find...
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/
I saw an online account, I have not being able to find it since, but the amount of cases that were dismissed by even this system was over 50%.
These courts have removed due process to accused men, they are being legally challenged all over the US at this stage....horrifying doesn't even begin to describe it!0 -
Suspected offenders in this country are not named. Anyone who doesn't find themselves on the receiving end of a false accusation, will not be named.
Anyone who is convicted of a sexual offence isn't even automatically named.0 -
Suspected offenders in this country are not named. Anyone who doesn't find themselves on the receiving end of a false accusation, will not be named.
Anyone who is convicted of a sexual offence isn't even automatically named.
While that is true it doesn't mean that people locally don't know or that the victims name isn't tarnished.
The only thing that would sort this out is that in the odd case that can be proven to be fake that the book be thrown at the perpetrator and a very serious punishment aplied0 -
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Noodleworm wrote: »Kind of horrifying to see this thread. I know several people who were raped. I had to give a statement to police about one friend.
Nothing happened to the guy. He DID rape someone and he is doing just fine. Most of them are.
You have to remember most victims don't report it because it's so difficult for anything to come of it.
If it happens in private and you don't the right kind of injuries, or you wait too long and the evidence is gone, you have a very weak case.
The person who raped you will always claim it was consensual. Because if there's no proof, or clear indication it wasn't, nothing happens.
The thing people don't like to hear is that at least some people who claim to be falsely accused ARE actually rapists who know what they did. It's the easiest defense - play the victim.
Of course false accusations happen but I do believe they are are rare because there is nothing to gain from it. We don't worry about people walking into garda stations and saying a lad they don't like assaulted them in a non sexual way. No one here can imagine doing that to a guy, even one they hated - because it doesn't make sense. Inviting the police to comb over a fabricated crime is nothing but bringing trouble on yourself.
Now go look at some of the convicted rape cases in the news.
In so many cases where there is CCTV, injuries, even witnesses - those accused of rape always say they had consensual sex.
Most rapes happen with people you know, People you are in relationships with, friends, behind closed doors. They prey on you when you are drunk or sleeping. Or they don't stop when you tell them too.
Very naive, there is unfortunately a growing contingent of women that know if they make a false accusation against a man, it can be hugely damaging to his mental health, his family, his job/business amongst other things & with the extremely low conviction rate of false accusations of this type, there is nothing for them to lose. Perfect for them if they want to make him suffer especially if their affections are not being reciprocated.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Put the shoe on the other foot. How come there is no way a woman can be convicted of rape in this country (shows the bias), I know plenty of men who have gone through with sex out of fear of upsetting their partner, under threats, etc. Is that right?
Also, how do you know the guy that was accused of rape is doing just fine, do you know personally, intimately.
Serious waft of bull**** of your post0
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