Canadian parent raising child as gender-neutral.

gizmo81 · 04-07-2017 12:27am

This is happening right now and has for sometime.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/ireland-s-transgender-children-1.2171777

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Is that a rabbit hole you would go down?

Ok so now the child gets to decide what path it takes to its gender expression. Goody goody. When the child is 13-15 and full of this knowledge of you have bestowed upon it. The child tells you it does not fit their biological body and wants to be a male or female. it wants an operation to correct that. How do you proceed gizmo81? I mean you did say a child gets to choose right?

mzungu · 04-07-2017 12:31am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not sure if you ever look around you, or read the statistics on gender inequality; but yes, gender constraints do exist, especially when it comes to incomes and family obligations.

And by gender strait-jackets, I'm talking about people imposing gender-based rules upon their children or their pupils ... most five-year-olds have learned that dolls are for girls and tractors are for boys. Thankfully, this trend is now diminishing, and cases like that stated in the OP are at the vanguard of that trend.

That's not down to social conditioning or "gender strait-jackets". For example, research has shown that male monkeys preferred playing with traditionally masculine toys like trucks and diggers while female moneys went for both dolls and wheeled toys. Not much different to what one would observe among humans. Raising the child as gender neutral won't circumvent its biological instincts.

Pero_Bueno · 04-07-2017 12:31am

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Before anyone attacks OP. I'm in no way homophobic or transphobic or any kind of phobic. You can self identify as an attack helicopter for all I care, but when you start pushing you're thing onto other people, expecting people to call you by your correct pronoun of "THEY" ****ing they, well then that's a different matter, and when you start pushing it onto kids, well fück you.

Yep these idiots don't see that they are just as bad (worse in fact) than parents that want their little Johnny ultra macho or little Susie ultra girly ..by pushing stereotypical boy/girl toys on them.

Will I Am Not · 04-07-2017 12:31am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So he/she should raise their kids to be bad, narrow-minded and insensitive people who compromise themselves in order to be liked?

Yes. That's exactly what I said :rolleyes:

Yourself isit · 04-07-2017 12:32am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I was yeah.

I know why I have problems with bestiality, it churns my stomach. But my gastric fragility is hardly a reason to ban something.

Why are you digging that up here? Do you have no logical point to advance, or is that thread somehow relevant here?

Grand. Lets assume you're correct: what's the problem here, so?

There's a bit of hysteria about this particular decision. After all the child can amend the birth cert later on.

In general though the gender is a fluid construct is an anti scientific doctrine. A religious belief. It uniques humans. No scientist has traditionally thought that gender is constructed in other sexual dimorphic species. Or that in such species (of which homo sapiens is one) there are not evolutionary reasons for sexual differences. Or that these sexual differences have no behavioural effects.

Pero_Bueno · 04-07-2017 12:33am

Xir, Xirs, Xirself ....

iguana · 04-07-2017 12:37am

SterlingArcher wrote: »

Is that a rabbit hole you would go down?

Ok so now the child gets to decide what path it takes. Goody goody. When the child is 13-15 and full of this knowledge of you have bestowed upon it. The child tells you it does not fit their biological body and wants to be a male or female. it wants an operation to correct that. How do you proceed gizmo81? I mean you did say a child gets to choose right?

I think raising a child with at least some degree of gender neutrality might actually lessen the chances of that happening. I've read quite a bit of writing from post-transgender young adults, people who went through the sex change process as a teen and later regretted it and have changed back as much as they could. And a common feature in their experience was a childhood of being expected to like gendered toys, clothes and activities. And when a little girl was told that the thing she really, really liked was for boys so she couldn't have it, she started saying she wished she was a boy and and so was started down a medical and surgical path she would never have been on if she had just been allowed to box/play football/have short hair in the first place. About half of the stories I've read from parents of trans-children have the parents knowing their boy was really a girl because he liked the pink ball best when he was a baby and as a toddler carried a baby doll everywhere. Allowing a child to just like whatever the fúck they like seems to me like it would lead to less children growing up wishing they were the opposite sex.

gizmo81 · 04-07-2017 12:38am

Do you honestly believe this stands up?

Wallen’s team offered the monkeys two categories of toys: “wheeled” and “plush”. The wheeled toys, intended to be masculine, included wagons and vehicles. The more feminine plush toys included Winnie the Pooh and Raggedy-Ann dolls.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Dig deeper and the actual research states it's probably to do with the properties of the toys.

For example, a toy such as a plastic shopping cart, one of our wheeled toys, might appeal to boys or rhesus monkey males for its physical properties,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

mzungu wrote: »

That's not down to social conditioning or "gender strait-jackets". For example, research has shown that male monkeys preferred playing with traditionally masculine toys like trucks and diggers while female moneys went for both dolls and wheeled toys. Not much different to what one would observe among humans. Raising the child as gender neutral won't circumvent its biological instincts.

Arcade_Tryer · 04-07-2017 12:39am

Gender is a social construct.

Sex is a scientific result.

What is the major problem? Seems the people with the biggest issue about this are those objecting to other people's choices concerning choosing or determining their own gender. Sad!

Professor Moriarty · 04-07-2017 12:40am

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Yes. That's exactly what I said :rolleyes:

Thought so.

When he said:

You raise your kids to be good, open-minded, compassionate people; not to be 'popular'.

You said:

Anyone can be bullied but you may as well stick a sandwich board with 'bully me' written on it as do this.

So the only logical conclusion that can be inferred is that you believe he/she should raise their kids to be bad, narrow-minded and insensitive people who compromise themselves in order to be liked. Or else they'll be bullied.

gizmo81 · 04-07-2017 12:41am

Intersex is a mental illness?

marsbandit wrote: »

Male and female. Anything else is mental illness.

Yourself isit · 04-07-2017 12:42am

iguana wrote: »

I think raising a child with at least some degree of gender neutrality might actually lessen the chances of that happening. I've read quite a bit of writing from post-transgender young adults, people who went through the sex change process as a teen and later regretted it and have changed back as much as they could. And a common feature in their experience was a childhood of being expected to like gendered toys, clothes and activities. And when a little girl was told that the thing she really, really liked was for boys so she couldn't have it, she started saying she wished she was a boy and and so was started down a medical and surgical path she would never have been on if she had just been allowed to box/play football/have short hair in the first place. About half of the stories I've read from parents of trans-children have the parents knowing their boy was really a girl because he liked the pink ball best when he was a baby and as a toddler carried a baby doll everywhere. Allowing a child to just like whatever the fúck they like seems to me like it would lead to less children growing up wishing they were the opposite sex.

True. We've always had tom boys, and girls surrounded by male siblings would often try to join in. If disallowed they would "wish" they were boys.

This wasn't and isn't an expression of transgenderism.

Another thing that kids do is wish they were the sex of the new child – because that child is getting all the attention and they associate it with the gender of the new baby (if different).

That also isn't transgenderism.

That said - a U on a birth cert isn't much harm. It's pre adult surgery that bugs me.

Will I Am Not · 04-07-2017 12:45am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Thought so.

When he said:

You raise your kids to be good, open-minded, compassionate people; not to be 'popular'.

You said:

Anyone can be bullied but you may as well stick a sandwich board with 'bully me' written on it as do this.

So the only logical conclusion that can be inferred is that you believe he/she should raise their kids to be bad, narrow-minded and insensitive people who compromise themselves in order to be liked. Or else they'll be bullied.

So you get that I'm saying the literal, exact opposite of everything they said in every line of their post from that?
Jesus... what a dumb way to debate.

Arcade_Tryer · 04-07-2017 12:45am

Yourself isit wrote: »

True. We've always had tom boys, and girls surrounded by male siblings would often try to join in. If disallowed they would "wish" they were boys.

This wasn't and isn't an expression of transgenderism.

.

That's a really good point, and especially relevant in Catholic and Muslim societies. Society and culture plays a huge role in this.

Yourself isit · 04-07-2017 12:46am

gizmo81 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe this stands up?

Wallen’s team offered the monkeys two categories of toys: “wheeled” and “plush”. The wheeled toys, intended to be masculine, included wagons and vehicles. The more feminine plush toys included Winnie the Pooh and Raggedy-Ann dolls.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Dig deeper and the actual research states it's probably to do with the properties of the toys.

For example, a toy such as a plastic shopping cart, one of our wheeled toys, might appeal to boys or rhesus monkey males for its physical properties,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

Why would the physical properties appeal to male monkeys? Who constructed that?

Samaris · 04-07-2017 12:48am

Mod: Closing temporarily for review and troll rebridging.

Samaris · 04-07-2017 8:05pm

Mod: Re-opening this thread as there's discussion to be had around the article still.

bubbles o hara
marsbandit
Ballstein
mickoleary

-don't post in this thread again. If the thread spirals into snipery and personal attacks again it will be closed.

LadyMacBeth_ · 04-07-2017 8:12pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'm not picking on your post in particular, but it's fairly representative of a lot of the narrative here: I don't have a problem with transgender people, but for God's sake assign this child the a gender associated with their sex, or else you're damaging them.

That position appears to assume there is something harmful about not being raised in a particular gender.

Why should that be harmful? It seems just as spurious, to my mind, as the argument that every child needs a male and a female parent.

I wouldn't be surprised if children who are raised without gender constraints actually end up happier, more well-rounded, and more open-minded as individuals, without feeling any of the gender constraints that most of us (male or female, but especially female) have felt at some stage.

I don't see any evidence of harm. I do see a great positive potential here. No child should be reared in a gender strait-jacket in this day and age.

Most people are cisgender, so to assume that the child is cisgender is pretty likely. If the child turns out to be trans then the matter can be addressed then. As for raising the child gender neutral, I don't believe this is necessary, by all means let the child play with whatever toys he/she wants to play with and if he/she wants to wear a dress then let him/her, some little boys want to wear a dress because their older sister has one, not because they are trans and there is no need to deny their gender either. Let them be kids and let them defy gender roles if they wish, not deny them entirely.

Ficheall · 04-07-2017 8:25pm

We should probably remove a baby's weight from the birth cert, too - it might change that later on, and it wouldn't do to be labelled fat from the get-go...

Omackeral · 04-07-2017 8:28pm

Ficheall wrote: »

We should probably remove a baby's weight from the birth cert, too - it might change that later on, and it wouldn't do to be labelled fat from the get-go...

My god I love the little fat rolls babies have on their wrists and on their cankles.

cgcsb · 04-07-2017 8:33pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

You can scientifically test that, you can't test for gender therefore its not real.

You can't test for CJD either but I'd say it'd feel pretty god damn real to you. :rolleyes: Honestly, that's some silly statement

soups05 · 04-07-2017 8:37pm

gizmo81 wrote: »

Knowledge Base!!! Correct.

But if some of you want to measure d1cks be warned

One study analysing the self-reported Kinsey data set found that the average penis of a homosexual man was larger than the average penis of their heterosexual counterparts

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10410197

oh crap, does that mean i have to be gay now? the wife won't be happy about that i can tell ya. not to mention that i don't fancy blokes at all. I got nothing against gays but its not for me, i heard its a pain in the .....aw never mind.

RobbingBandit · 04-07-2017 8:39pm

The person gave birth to this child if they themselves now identify as gender fluid/neutral and wish to offer their child the same opportunity who are we society as a whole to deny them that right or privilege.

mzungu · 04-07-2017 8:47pm

gizmo81 wrote: »

Do you honestly believe this stands up?

Ah c'mon now, I could ask you the same question about treating Adrienne Rich's opinion as fact.

gizmo81 wrote: »

Wallen’s team offered the monkeys two categories of toys: “wheeled” and “plush”. The wheeled toys, intended to be masculine, included wagons and vehicles. The more feminine plush toys included Winnie the Pooh and Raggedy-Ann dolls.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/

Dig deeper and the actual research states it's probably to do with the properties of the toys.

For example, a toy such as a plastic shopping cart, one of our wheeled toys, might appeal to boys or rhesus monkey males for its physical properties,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

There are still innate biological differences, raising the child as genderless won't be able to circumvent biology. Besides, roughly the same result was found with children in a study from Todd, Barry and Thommessen (2016. Preferences for ‘Gender-typed’ Toys in Boys and Girls Aged 9 to 32 Months. Infant and Child Development) who found that significant sex differences were evident at an earlier age than when gendered identity is usually demonstrated. The boys in the study choose the toys that were specific to their own gender, as did the girls. Both boys and girls with age showed an increasing preference for boys toys. There was no social conditioning at play and they still made the choice.

Whether the child is raised genderless or not, chances are that they will still go for toys that fit their gender stereotype.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 04-07-2017 9:03pm

RobbingBandit wrote: »

The person gave birth to this child if they themselves now identify as gender fluid/neutral and wish to offer their child the same opportunity who are we society as a whole to deny them that right or privilege.

Because the child's mother, yes that's mother not "they" as she wants to be known (biology...) as clearly has a twisted addenda along with being mentally ill and now she's forcing her mental illness on her child.

Irish Guitarist · 04-07-2017 9:08pm

They's a moron.

cgcsb · 04-07-2017 9:18pm

It's an interesting subject. I can't help but feel that the parent in question is doing this because s/he probably had a pretty difficult time being themselves as a child, perhaps s/he was pushed into some pretty extreme gender roles by parents (e.g. forcing girls into beauty patents and dissuading them from education is not unheard of in that part of the world). If that's the case it must have been awful and I can somewhat identify with that as a gay man who, as a child, had my head filled with Disney bu11**** in which male role models only function was to rescue the princess and talk her into marrying you. Obviously being trans is a much larger cross to bear especially if your parents dissuade you from being yourself. As much sympathy as I have for the parent, I can't help but feel that they are dumping a lot of baggage onto their child, after all 99.9999999% of the population are CIS-gendered so I don't see the harm in raising them as their birth sex while also not forcing them into any roles they don't want to be in.

gizmo81 · 04-07-2017 9:31pm

And you understand the limitations of that study?

http://www.pitt.edu/~bertsch/Todd_et_al-2016-Infant_and_Child_Development.pdf

-Peer presence may have decreased the likelihood of play with other-gender- typed toys
-Potential effects of observers is chal- lenging;
-The effect of parent,
-Other adult or peer presence is likely to vary by age and sex of the participant,
-By sex and role of observer and
-By wider cultural context.
-In future studies, the relationship between young infants’ preferences and the beliefs and behaviour of their parents could be explored.

-However, it is possible that preferences relate to previous positive experiences of play with similar gender-typed toys selected by caregivers

-The results suggest both biological and developmental–environmental com- ponents to sex differences in object preferences.

It's impossible to know what role environmental factors had in play with the children.

mzungu wrote: »

Ah c'mon now, I could ask you the same question about treating Adrienne Rich's opinion as fact.

There are still innate biological differences, raising the child as genderless won't be able to circumvent biology. Besides, roughly the same result was found with children in a study from Todd, Barry and Thommessen (2016. Preferences for ‘Gender-typed’ Toys in Boys and Girls Aged 9 to 32 Months. Infant and Child Development) who found that significant sex differences were evident at an earlier age than when gendered identity is usually demonstrated. The boys in the study choose the toys that were specific to their own gender, as did the girls. Both boys and girls with age showed an increasing preference for boys toys. There was no social conditioning at play and they still made the choice.

Whether the child is raised genderless or not, chances are that they will still go for toys that fit their gender stereotype.

hatrickpatrick · 04-07-2017 9:44pm

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Gender is a social construct.

Sex is a scientific result.

What is the major problem? Seems the people with the biggest issue about this are those objecting to other people's choices concerning choosing or determining their own gender. Sad!

What is "gender" then, if not merely a set of roles to conform to?

So if we abolish the roles and regard gender and sex as one and the same, in other words mere physical characteristics, isn't that a better solution than introducing all of this bizarre and counter intuitive crap?

Here's an example:

Like... As a straight person what exactly are you supposed to say in response to this kind of stuff? I wouldn't touch another person's weiner if you paid me, but if the definition of "straight" can include having sex with people who are biologically the same sex as you, then what is the word for somebody who is only attracted to the same biological sex, without necessarily caring about "gender identity"?

It's very peculiar. Transsexual is intuitive - one who feels they were born in the wrong body and would like to swap. Nothing contradictory about that. Somebody who identifies as a woman and yet is happy to have a male body - what exactly are they saying, then? That they don't want to conform to male gender roles? That's perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned! But get rid of the roles themselves rather than trying to rewrite the entire English language to get around them, thus introducing ridiculous paradoxes along the way.

Again, those who do so come across as attention seeking - particularly when you get into the new new stuff like pan sexual, gender fluid, etc. It's rapidly becoming a meme among far right types to use the abbreviation "LGBTADSDFGHHKL;-/:(" or "LGBTOMGWTFBBQ" - and can you really blame them? The fact that people are being accused of being horrible people just because they don't approve of the "look at me, I'm special and unique" types who are undoubtedly driving a lot of the overly convoluted new concepts in all of this is ridiculous.

Hammer89 · 04-07-2017 9:50pm

If I had to guess I'd say the mother derives from First Nations' people in Canada and a lot of them have FIVE genders in their culture - female, male, male body female spirit, female body male spirit, and transgender.

Edit - I've just Googled the mother and she has a better beard than me. Refusing to give the baby a gender is definitely an Indian thing.

I spent time with a bunch of them in Canada and although they're nice, friendly and harmless people, they're a bit odd. This one day we're driving around looking for willow trees to build a sweat lodge with, and we find them, but we can't snip them out of the ground without rubbing rolling tobacco on them first, as a way to say thanks.

donegaLroad · 04-07-2017 9:54pm

Hunky Monster wrote: »

So I just read this article from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40480386

To quote a small bit from the article...

Before post #3 asks what's OP's opinion....

Absolutely ridiculous. The poor child. As for its mother or whatever "THEY" want to be called, well you're a fücking idiot. I sincerely hope your child is taken from you to save HIM/HER from a life of absolute fücking misery. Hey read a science book you gowl.

that is a pretty typical Canadian thing to do alright

mzungu · 04-07-2017 11:03pm

gizmo81 wrote: »

And you understand the limitations of that study?

http://www.pitt.edu/~bertsch/Todd_et_al-2016-Infant_and_Child_Development.pdf
-Peer presence may have decreased the likelihood of play with other-gender- typed toys
-Potential effects of observers is chal- lenging;
-The effect of parent,
-Other adult or peer presence is likely to vary by age and sex of the participant,
-By sex and role of observer and
-By wider cultural context.
-In future studies, the relationship between young infants’ preferences and the beliefs and behaviour of their parents could be explored.

-However, it is possible that preferences relate to previous positive experiences of play with similar gender-typed toys selected by caregivers

-The results suggest both biological and developmental–environmental com- ponents to sex differences in object preferences.

It's impossible to know what role environmental factors had in play with the children.

Hardly impossible, one can draw their own conclusions aside from the obligatory caveat. Besides, you can observe typically different behaviour patterns among children. Environment is in there, but internally we are hardwired differently and that is always going to be the case. It is why children raised as the wrong gender after being born with ambitious genitalia will either eventually identify with their biological sex, or will report mental health problems. It it was all environment then they would not suffer all that distress, but they do suffer distress so we can rule out environment as being a major factor.

Will I Am Not · 04-07-2017 11:29pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

What is "gender" then, if not merely a set of roles to conform to?

So if we abolish the roles and regard gender and sex as one and the same, in other words mere physical characteristics, isn't that a better solution than introducing all of this bizarre and counter intuitive crap?

Here's an example:

Like... As a straight person what exactly are you supposed to say in response to this kind of stuff? I wouldn't touch another person's weiner if you paid me, but if the definition of "straight" can include having sex with people who are biologically the same sex as you, then what is the word for somebody who is only attracted to the same biological sex, without necessarily caring about "gender identity"?

It's very peculiar. Transsexual is intuitive - one who feels they were born in the wrong body and would like to swap. Nothing contradictory about that. Somebody who identifies as a woman and yet is happy to have a male body - what exactly are they saying, then? That they don't want to conform to male gender roles? That's perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned! But get rid of the roles themselves rather than trying to rewrite the entire English language to get around them, thus introducing ridiculous paradoxes along the way.

Again, those who do so come across as attention seeking - particularly when you get into the new new stuff like pan sexual, gender fluid, etc. It's rapidly becoming a meme among far right types to use the abbreviation "LGBTADSDFGHHKL;-/:(" or "LGBTOMGWTFBBQ" - and can you really blame them? The fact that people are being accused of being horrible people just because they don't approve of the "look at me, I'm special and unique" types who are undoubtedly driving a lot of the overly convoluted new concepts in all of this is ridiculous.

My word... that conversation :eek:
Please tell me this kind of stuff only happens in America?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 04-07-2017 11:43pm

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

My word... that conversation :eek:
Please tell me this kind of stuff only happens in America?

Unfortunately not. This way of thinking has infected our own colleges and universities. Only a matter of time before the school curriculum is going to be reviewed to change actual science and tell us all there's 72 different genders to keep some mental people happy.

It's happening.

Oh and if you don't like it, intolerant, insensitive, sexist, misogynistic, transphobic, you're literally hitler.

Professor Moriarty · 05-07-2017 12:22am

Well, perhaps a perspective about a boy/mother relationship is apt. These are Muddy Waters (couldn't resist) so perhaps it's an appropriate time to listen to Mannish Boy.

Samaris · 05-07-2017 12:37am

Mod: Enough with calling trans, intersex and/or non-binary people mentally ill. Cards happening on that [polite edit] nonsense from here out.

suicide_circus · 05-07-2017 12:48am

Isnt this the logical next step of a world in which gender is none binary? Looks like people are tolerant enough to "humour" transgender adults but are writing cheques their conscience can't cash when it comes to making this notion of gender the default approach.

uck51js9zml2yt · 05-07-2017 12:58am

suicide_circus wrote: »

Isnt this the logical next step of a world in which gender is none binary? Looks like people are tolerant enough to "humour" transgender adults but are writing cheques their conscience can't cash when it comes to making this notion of gender the default approach.

Of course gender is binary...male and female.
It's nuts to say anything else!

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 05-07-2017 1:22am

Samaris wrote: »

Mod: Enough with calling trans, intersex and/or non-binary people mentally ill. Cards happening on that [polite edit] nonsense from here out.

I wasn't saying alltrans people are mentally ill. Not at all. Most trans people know it's weird and they don't try and inflict their preferred pronouns on everyone. This is woman is directly affecting a childs life. I however 100% believe that this woman (and she IS a woman) has some sort of mental condition. Apart from all the weirdness that is transitioning from f to m she's also trying to force her world view on a newborn baby, as is the child has already been refused a birth certificate, i can see a lot more problems on the way for this child as it grows older.

I mean her mother want's to be referred to as "they" ffs!! Absolute looper.

THEY.

Anyone see this bit at the end of the article..

The family's lawyer, barbara findlay, who chooses to spell her name without capital letters, told Global News: "The assignment of sex in.............

Batsh*t, the lot of them.

KKkitty · 05-07-2017 1:55am

This is ridiculous beyond words. This child didn't ask for this at all. Whatever his/her's mother's agenda is it shouldn't transcend to the child. Slate me if you want but the internet has a lot to answer for with people identifying as makey uppey terms. You are born with a penis means you're male, you're born with a vagina you're female. If you have a sex change you don't get ovaries and a womb if you're male going to female. If you're female going to male you don't get testicles that can produce sperm. This child should be removed from it's so called mother before he/she becomes f**ked up because of it.

jackofalltrades · 05-07-2017 2:34am

There's a special place in hell for posters who upside down quote.
Seriously Gizmo81 your posts are nightmare to read.

This all seems to be based about the sex recorded on official documents.
Since very few official documents record gender.
The argument seem to be we should give parents the ability to stop recording this, based on an absolutely tiny minority who could be discommoded in later life.
If we stop recording the sex of babies, how will we keep a track of this vital statistic.
What if there is a sudden change and we have no statistics to show.
This is a dangerous case of ideals above practicality.

05-07-2017 2:40am

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

God I miss the days when men where men and women where women....

Now I dunno what the **** is going on half the time!

Simpler times I guess.

Rest assured, men are still men and women are still women. They'll go on raising babies with penises as boys who in time will become men and babies with vaginas as girls who in time will become women. Whether they're straight or gay is absolutely irrelevant when it comes their time to become parents.

It's the few who can't really figure out themselves if they're a man or a woman who are leading to all of this absolutely unnecessary guff. It can't be easy for them, but aside from having a bit of compassion and acceptance as a society for the individual and personal struggle those people face, there's ZERO reason for men and women to bother with any of the rest of the BS that surrounds them.

That baby is being used as a pawn now in a game where the parent has had a difficult personal journey and a whole bunch of interest groups are trying to use it to make a move on the board.

It's wrong. Plain and simple. If the baby has a penis, he's a boy and 'M' should be entered on the register. If the baby has a vagina, it should be 'F'. If in time that baby grows up and thinks that's the wrong entry, support should be given to correct it.

Sex and Gender are the same thing in the context of a Birth Certificate. If there's no evidence suggesting abnormal genitalia, the situation should not require nor facilitate any of this utter dung on the part of the parent(s) or associated interest groups. Boy or Girl. Write it down and get on with being a decent PARENT.

05-07-2017 2:52am

cgcsb wrote: »

As much sympathy as I have for the parent, I can't help but feel that they are dumping a lot of baggage onto their child

Now this is interesting.

You're a gay man, so obviously you are part of a minority whose activities, throughout the centuries, have been vilified as being contrary to natural law. Eventually, human civilisation progressed to the point where the argument has been broadly won, that gender-based presuppositions are a vain and irrational attempt to classify individuals.

So I'm curious, what exactly is the "baggage" you fear has been dumped on this child, growing up in a home where they are liberated from exactly the same presuppositions which criminalised and tormented gay men for so long?

Can you please spell-out for me what exactly the harm is, in raising children never to be constrained by gender 'roles'?

Frank O. Pinion · 05-07-2017 9:09am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

On the subject of things I recently found out bisexual is now called pansexual.

Things be crazy.

No, it's not.

LLMMLL · 05-07-2017 1:18pm

Noveight wrote: »

It's one of the most fundamental parameters by which someone can be identified. It's completely relevant on a birth certificate.

In what way do they need to be identified? What do you think birth certs are for?

LLMMLL · 05-07-2017 1:23pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

There's a special place in hell for posters who upside down quote.
Seriously Gizmo81 your posts are nightmare to read.

This all seems to be based about the sex recorded on official documents.
Since very few official documents record gender.
The argument seem to be we should give parents the ability to stop recording this, based on an absolutely tiny minority who could be discommoded in later life.
If we stop recording the sex of babies, how will we keep a track of this vital statistic.
What if there is a sudden change and we have no statistics to show.
This is a dangerous case of ideals above practicality.

A sudden change in the constant for millions of years near 50/50-ness of male/female births? LOL

cgcsb · 05-07-2017 3:36pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Now this is interesting.

You're a gay man, so obviously you are part of a minority whose activities, throughout the centuries, have been vilified as being contrary to natural law. Eventually, human civilisation progressed to the point where the argument has been broadly won, that gender-based presuppositions are a vain and irrational attempt to classify individuals.

So I'm curious, what exactly is the "baggage" you fear has been dumped on this child, growing up in a home where they are liberated from exactly the same presuppositions which criminalised and tormented gay men for so long?

Can you please spell-out for me what exactly the harm is, in raising children never to be constrained by gender 'roles'?

The baggage being that all the other kids have a gender and a certain role laid out for them and this individual does not at behest of their parent. Invariably the child will experience otherness despite the fact that there's a 99.9% chance they will not be 'other' in the gender stakes. It is now possible to relax that gender role a lot, while still acknowledging that the child is a boy or girl, I think that is a better model giving the child freedom to explore their own identity without forcing them into the realm of oddness from day 1.

You are correct I was bestowed with similar baggage as a child, as a 7 year old I was full on, flush faced, in love with my best pal who I used to rough-house with. It seemed that society took every opportunity to tell me how gross I was and I mustn't verbalise how I felt because it was simply too taboo. That was unfortunate for me, but the key difference here is my parents didn't put that baggage on me to placate their world view, wider society put that on me out of swivel-eyed ignorance.

Gay people are not free from supposition btw. I'm often asked about my wife, for example. The introduction of the subject of my boyfriend and possible future husband raises eyebrows. I expect it'll always be this way. It doesn't bother me to be honest because very few men have husbands.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 05-07-2017 4:54pm

I vividly remember going through a phase at around 5 or 6 where I wanted to play with girls toys, I wanted dolls and a cooker for Christmas. My poor parents must have been crippled with worry but they went along with it. Then the phase passed after a couple of months.

Talking to people down through the years I realised I wasn't the only male child who went through such a phase.

What worries we is kids who experience something like this in the modern day. If I had been born 20 years later would my parents have been encouraged to send me to school in a dress a start me on hormone treatment?

Sleepy · 05-07-2017 5:28pm

If anyone cares to find it, there was a great post on reddit from a guy raised like this in the US in the 80's. He eventually got taken into care and after a few years of boucing around the foster care system was finally adopted by a family who gave him a real home.

He ended up in a heterosexual marriage and had kids of his own but held onto a deap-seated hatred for his mother and believed she had robbed him of his boyhood...

Now, maybe this child won't experience that. Hopefully he/she won't but the parent's choice is idiotic imo and the Canadian government are worse for catering to his/her snowflakery in allowing an invalid entry on the child's passport.

osarusan · 05-07-2017 5:34pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Now, maybe this child won't experience that. Hopefully he/she won't but the parent's choice is idiotic imo and the Canadian government are worse for catering to his/her snowflakery in allowing an invalid entry on the child's passport.

There's no reason to believe they issued a passport.

In fact, the Canadian government are refusing to issue a birth cert:

In the case of Searyl Atli, the parent said that the authorities have refused to issue the birth certificate without a gender designation and so the parent has applied for a judicial review of the case.

They have issued a health card - I would imagine they did this as the case/review might take months and the child needs something right now to record doctor's visits/ vaccinations etc.

Canadian parent raising child as gender-neutral.

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