Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

westtip · 25-03-2019 11:01am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Looking at that video, going from Claremorris to Athenry, there is mainly just single track, with no room for dual track.

Also there are no places from which it might fnd a few passengers. There are not even very many one-off houses. How could such a train service even pay for the fuel, let alone the wages?

that's it in a nutshell, and now we the taxpayer are spending half a million euro to come up with an independent report on this subject,everyone has been saying it for years there is simply no economic, demographic, business case, or sound transport planning case for this railway probably never will be so let's just get on with the alternative use that people are clamouring for.

marno21 · 30-03-2019 3:44pm

At present, the Western Rail Corridor has not been re-instated on the Trans-European Transport Network. During negotiations on the Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing the Connecting Europe Facility and Repealing Regulations (EU) No 1316/2013 and (EU) No 283/2014, the European Parliament proposed an amendment to the Annex. The Parliament's proposed amendment was to include the alignment of Derry - Sligo - Galway on the North Sea - Mediterranean Core Network Corridor. This amendment was deemed unacceptable by the European Commission on the grounds that alignments of the core network corridors can only include elements of the core TEN-T network, which as presently defined does not include any of Derry, Sligo or Galway. A number of similar proposed amendments by the Parliament concerning other Member States were also rejected on the same grounds.

In late February 2019, my Department received correspondence from European Commissioner for Transport, Violeta Bulc, which stated that the European Commission is considering advancing the review of the comprehensive TEN-T Network, which is due to take place no later than the end of 2023, as stipulated in the TEN-T Regulation. The Commission's review process will include: an evaluation study, to be launched this month and to conclude in spring 2020; a public stakeholder consultation process, opening this month and concluding in June 2019; and targeted consultation with Member States and a wide range of stakeholders, commencing in the second half of 2019. My Department intends to be fully engaged in all stages of this review process.

In addition to our participation in this process, my Department will be making a formal submission to the European Commission shortly, calling for an early review of the TEN-T Network as outlined in the Programme for Government, taking into account our National Development Plan, our National Planning Framework and the implications of Brexit.

The Western Rail Corridor was originally included under the Transport 21 Initiative and was to be developed in Three Phases. Phase 1 involved the reopening of the 36 mile stretch of railway line between Ennis and Athenry and this is part of the TEN-T comprehensive network. This line was opened to the public in March 2010. Exchequer funding of €106.5 million was approved for Phase 1.

The plan for Phase 2 involved the development of the line from Athenry to Tuam. However, this development together with a number of other transport projects was postponed in 2011 due to the economic and fiscal crisis. Phase 3 involved the development of the line from Tuam to Claremorris.

As the Deputy is aware, both the 'Programme for a Partnership Government' and the recently-published 'National Development Plan' commit to an independent review of the costings for a proposal to extend the existing Western Rail Corridor. A process for an independent financial and economic evaluation of WRC phase 2 has commenced and this will include broad consultation. Having conducted a procurement process for contracts of this nature, Irish Rail anticipate the appointed consultants will commence work at the end of the month. The study will take 5 to 6 months to complete and will include a comprehensive public consultation exercise.

The latest from Shane Ross.

Muckyboots · 31-03-2019 2:36pm

marno21 wrote: »

The latest from Shane Ross.

It reads like a cheap circular train set.

trellheim · 31-03-2019 5:55pm

A process for an independent financial and economic evaluation of WRC phase 2

Was this not done before ?

Grandeeod · 31-03-2019 7:23pm

trellheim wrote: »

Was this not done before ?

Many times.

westtip · 01-04-2019 3:36pm

trellheim wrote: »

Was this not done before ?

Yep as GD said many times, the most recent was the national rail review three years ago, but there is something about the mindset of West on Track that has a stranglehold over government. So we are wasting half a million euro on yet another independent survey...its enough to make your blood boil.....:mad:

Del.Monte · 01-04-2019 7:17pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Looking at that video, going from Claremorris to Athenry, there is mainly just single track, with no room for dual track.

Also there are no places from which it might fnd a few passengers. There are not even very many one-off houses. How could such a train service even pay for the fuel, let alone the wages?

Athenry/Claremorris is part of a through route - not a branch from Athenry to Claremorris and no sensible person is suggesting that Ballyglunin, Tuam etc. are going to be major sources of traffic but it all contributes. A proper North/South rail spine down the West side of the island makes sense but it's difficult to argue this point with people such as yourself who appear to know nothing about the route save what they have read on Boards. No personal criticism intended.

serfboard · 01-04-2019 7:50pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Athenry/Claremorris is part of a through route

A through route from where to where?

Grandeeod · 01-04-2019 8:02pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Athenry/Claremorris is part of a through route - not a branch from Athenry to Claremorris and no sensible person is suggesting that Ballyglunin, Tuam etc. are going to be major sources of traffic but it all contributes. A proper North/South rail spine down the West side of the island makes sense but it's difficult to argue this point with people such as yourself who appear to know nothing about the route save what they have read on Boards. No personal criticism intended.

Ah Del.Monte.:D I know all about the route and no matter how much money we have the existing alignment won't cut it. You got Limerick - Galway via Athenry and after my experience last week, it's not too great.

Del.Monte · 01-04-2019 8:17pm

serfboard wrote: »

A through route from where to where?

Take your pick - Limerick/Westport; Limerick/Ballina; Galway/Limerick; Wesport/Galway; Waterford (should be Rosslare)/Gallway/Westport/Ballina etc. or Cork to any of the above. It's not about 'all' those commuters in Athenry who want to get to Ballyglunin/Tuam or Claremorris.

Sam Russell · 01-04-2019 9:35pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Athenry/Claremorris is part of a through route - not a branch from Athenry to Claremorris and no sensible person is suggesting that Ballyglunin, Tuam etc. are going to be major sources of traffic but it all contributes. A proper North/South rail spine down the West side of the island makes sense but it's difficult to argue this point with people such as yourself who appear to know nothing about the route save what they have read on Boards. No personal criticism intended.

I am very familiar with Tuam and Galway. If the population of Tuam travelled from Tuam to Athenry, how would they get to Galway? There is no capacity on the Athenry to Galway to carry them - it is a single track railway.

Why would they go by train when a bus can do the journey quicker down the new motorway?

There is no sense whatsoever to open the line. There are no population centres on the route, and no passengers prepared to wait on a wet and windy platform at Athenry for a connection to Galway.

What would the running time for a train from Tuam to Athenry be?
How many staff would be required to support the service?
What would the subvention be per annum for the service?
How much would the reinstatement of the line cost?

If there is money for trains, there are better candidates than this line. Navan to M3 Parkway - about 30 km, with plenty of would be passengers en route. Or if you like, Navan to Drogheda might be better as the line is there now and in current use for freight (or was until recently).

westtip · 03-04-2019 8:27am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Athenry/Claremorris is part of a through route - not a branch from Athenry to Claremorris and no sensible person is suggesting that Ballyglunin, Tuam etc. are going to be major sources of traffic but it all contributes. A proper North/South rail spine down the West side of the island makes sense but it's difficult to argue this point with people such as yourself who appear to know nothing about the route save what they have read on Boards. No personal criticism intended.

The whole point in this endless debate though is if anyone wants a North/south Rail route from say Derry to Cork then go campaign for a route that can provide a proper train service, reinventing this ramshackle rambling route that twists and turns its way through the countryside is not about creating modern 21st century infrastructure. The road lobby would never have accepted the idea of upgrading the national road system by widening a few national roads and putting a few bypasses akin to lets say for example the Enfield bypass. If the rail lobby had from day one fought for a proper new alignment they would probably have a much better Limerick Galway link now, ie a line that actually goes from point to point. Re-opening the closed railway will deliver a second rate product, is that what West on Track are aiming to deliver? It is a second rate campaign to deliver second rate piece of infrastructure, so why not let go of the old route, let it become a greenway and look for something that will deliver what they yearn?

Isambard · 03-04-2019 8:52am

westtip wrote: »

The whole point in this endless debate though is if anyone wants a North/south Rail route from say Derry to Cork then go campaign for a route that can provide a proper train service, reinventing this ramshackle rambling route that twists and turns its way through the countryside is not about creating modern 21st century infrastructure. The road lobby would never have accepted the idea of upgrading the national road system by widening a few national roads and putting a few bypasses akin to lets say for example the Enfield bypass. If the rail lobby had from day one fought for a proper new alignment they would probably have a much better Limerick Galway link now, ie a line that actually goes from point to point. Re-opening the closed railway will deliver a second rate product, is that what West on Track are aiming to deliver? It is a second rate campaign to deliver second rate piece of infrastructure, so why not let go of the old route, let it become a greenway and look for something that will deliver what they yearn?

there already is a Cork to Derry rail route.

London Correspondent · 03-04-2019 12:59pm

Isambard wrote: »

there already is a Cork to Derry rail route.

Similar to the Cork to Limerick motorway that already exists...

what_traffic · 03-04-2019 3:58pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I am very familiar with Tuam and Galway. If the population of Tuam travelled from Tuam to Athenry, how would they get to Galway? There is no capacity on the Athenry to Galway to carry them - it is a single track railway.

Why would they go by train when a bus can do the journey quicker down the new motorway?

5 NEW bus services added to this route since 01-04-2019 (No APRIL Fools)
Not using the Motorway (servicing Claregalway and Carnmore instead)(possibly using section of the N6 that is Dual Carraigeway)

https://www.gobus.ie/Ballina

Timetables

https://www.gobus.ie/dp.php?c=ballina&t=galway-to-ballina-timetable&id=51
https://www.gobus.ie/dp.php?c=ballina&t=ballina-to-galway-city-timetable-commencing-april-1st-2019&id=49

Isambard · 03-04-2019 3:59pm

London Correspondent wrote: »

Similar to the Cork to Limerick motorway that already exists...

amusing but not comparable.

Muckyboots · 03-04-2019 4:57pm

what_traffic wrote: »

5 NEW bus services added to this route since 01-04-2019 (No APRIL Fools)
Not using the Motorway (servicing Claregalway and Carnmore instead)(possibly using section of the N6 that is Dual Carraigeway)

https://www.gobus.ie/Ballina

Timetables

https://www.gobus.ie/dp.php?c=ballina&t=galway-to-ballina-timetable&id=51
https://www.gobus.ie/dp.php?c=ballina&t=ballina-to-galway-city-timetable-commencing-april-1st-2019&id=49

Ah ya, but it's not a train.

London Correspondent · 03-04-2019 11:23pm

God forbid it would be a train. They’re evil things you know.

serfboard · 03-04-2019 11:44pm

what_traffic wrote: »

5 NEW bus services added to this route since 01-04-2019

Add those to the 2 services provided by Feda O’Donnell, the 13 services provided by Bus Eireann and the 19 (weekday) services provided by Burkes giving a total of 39 weekday buses from Tuam to Galway.

But no - the people of Tuam want a train service instead that’s going to be less frequent, slower and more expensive, which is why they marched in their thousands around the town demanding it.

Except they didn’t.

what_traffic · 04-04-2019 10:14am

Muckyboots wrote: »

Ah ya, but it's not a train.

True - they are very comfortable Volvo 9700 coaches, with free WiFi and power sockets. On board toilet facilities.

westtip · 04-04-2019 11:30am

serfboard wrote: »

Add those to the 2 services provided by Feda O’Donnell, the 13 services provided by Bus Eireann and the 19 (weekday) services provided by Burkes giving a total of 39 weekday buses from Tuam to Galway.

But no - the people of Tuam want a train service instead that’s going to be less frequent, slower and more expensive, which is why they marched in their thousands around the town demanding it.

Except they didn’t.

Tuam? Tuam? What's Tuam got to do with it, this is all about Claremorris, and the billions of tonnes of freight that needs moving from Mayo to Foynes. Tuam where is Tuam anyway....:D

noelfirl · 04-04-2019 12:19pm

London Correspondent wrote: »

God forbid it would be a train. They’re evil things you know.

Sorry, but can we flip that around a bit please? There have actually been several posts on boards.ie through the years which account to little more then shouting 'I WON'T travel on a bus, I WON'T!' and stamping their feet.

London Correspondent · 04-04-2019 12:56pm

Really? Don't get me started on all the whoppers, lies, exaggerations and pure bull**** that have been posted on these various WRC threads over the years. Note that the people who really know whats going on and making things happen will never post here.

serfboard · 04-04-2019 1:04pm

London Correspondent wrote: »

Note that the people who really know whats going on and making things happen will never post here.

Really?

Do tell us more. Who are these "people who really know whats going on and [are] making things happen"?

westtip · 10-04-2019 8:10am

London Correspondent wrote: »

Really? Don't get me started on all the whoppers, lies, exaggerations and pure bull**** that have been posted on these various WRC threads over the years. Note that the people who really know whats going on and making things happen will never post here.

So says London Correspondent who apparently joined Boards in January 2019 and has posted 16 post!:D

Lord Glentoran · 10-04-2019 6:07pm

London Correspondent wrote: »

Similar to the Cork to Limerick motorway that already exists...

Ouch!

monument · 11-04-2019 10:39am

London Correspondent wrote: »

Really? Don't get me started on all the whoppers, lies, exaggerations and pure bull**** that have been posted on these various WRC threads over the years. Note that the people who really know whats going on and making things happen will never post here.

westtip wrote: »

So says London Correspondent who apparently joined Boards in January 2019 and has posted 16 post!:D

Hello London Correspondent,

If you want to come on here and with in your first handful of posts have a good old rant about what’s posted here, make such stark comments and then say who would or would not post here, then you are opening yourself to stark responses.

The response to you is mild and, given your rant, it’s well within the rules.

Please try to be more constructive with future posts.

— moderator

Lord Glentoran · 13-04-2019 2:22pm

Boards might as well go the whole hog and make westtip a mod.

westtip · 13-04-2019 10:23pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Boards might as well go the whole hog and make westtip a mod.

I would endorse that! chill pills required though!:pac:

jasper100 · 17-04-2019 7:25pm

According to the Clare champion Irish Rail expects 420000 passenger journeys this year and its the fast growing line in the country!

the company predicts that journeys on the line will reach 420,000 this year

L1011 · 17-04-2019 7:27pm

jasper100 wrote: »

According to the Clare champion Irish Rail expects 420000 passenger journeys this year and its the fast growing line in the country!

the company predicts that journeys on the line will reach 420,000 this year

How much of this is extra journeys due to Oranmore; which is not on the reopened section?

The figures given always include the pre-existing sections.

serfboard · 17-04-2019 7:48pm

L1011 wrote: »

The figures given always include the pre-existing sections.

Of course they do:

The Clare Champion wrote:

The Ennis to Limerick service and the Athenry to Galway commuter services have shown significant growth.
...
According to Iarnród Éireann, a range of measures to boost demand included ... the opening of the Oranmore Station in 2013.

The Oranmore station car park is very busy.The one at Gort? Not so much.

So Oranmore is working as a Park 'n 'Ride, getting all the car-dependent dispersed commuters out of their cars on the outskirts of the city. A proper use of this resource, but one which did not need over 100 million Euro spent on it.

what_traffic · 17-04-2019 8:18pm

serfboard wrote: »

Of course they do:
The Oranmore station car park is very busy.The one at Gort? Not so much.

So Oranmore is working as a Park 'n 'Ride, getting all the car-dependent dispersed commuters out of their cars on the outskirts of the city. A proper use of this resource, but one which did not need over 100 million Euro spent on it.

If they had spent 100 million Euro between Athenry and Galway City with new stations, dual track - IR would be getting alot more bang for the buck now for sure.

jasper100 · 17-04-2019 8:19pm

L1011 wrote: »

How much of this is extra journeys due to Oranmore; which is not on the reopened section?

The figures given always include the pre-existing sections.

The growth is being experienced across the route, with city to city journeys surging and a particularly strong student demand. The Ennis to Limerick service and the Athenry to Galway commuter services have shown significant growth.

marno21 · 17-04-2019 8:29pm

jasper100 wrote: »

The growth is being experienced across the route, with city to city journeys surging and a particularly strong student demand. The Ennis to Limerick service and the Athenry to Galway commuter services have shown significant growth.

It's little wonder there's "surging" growth with the fares still subsidised (which I agree with - little point in running high fares with empty trains).

Grandeeod · 17-04-2019 8:45pm

marno21 wrote: »

It's little wonder there's "surging" growth with the fares still subsidised (which I agree with - little point in running high fares with empty trains).

Over subsidised fares and free car parking too. GDA rail commuters have big fares and car parking charges. Fish in a barrel stuff, while the WRC is treated like a charity case to increase ridership. Makes me want to puke such is the absolutely thwarted attitude to it.

Del.Monte · 17-04-2019 9:41pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Over subsidised fares and free car parking too. GDA rail commuters have big fares and car parking charges. Fish in a barrel stuff, while the WRC is treated like a charity case to increase ridership. Makes me want to puke such is the absolutely thwarted attitude to it.

The WRC won't achieve anything like its full potential until it reaches Claremorris. Will it ever happen - probably not if the past is anything to go by. The reopened Youghal line stops halfway to its destination; Clonsilla/Navan ends in a field and the Green Luas line ends on top of a hill at Brides Glen instead of Bray. :rolleyes:

L1011 · 17-04-2019 10:16pm

jasper100 wrote: »

The growth is being experienced across the route, with city to city journeys surging and a particularly strong student demand. The Ennis to Limerick service and the Athenry to Galway commuter services have shown significant growth.

Actual figures?

Grandeeod · 17-04-2019 10:36pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

The WRC won't achieve anything like its full potential until it reaches Claremorris. Will it ever happen - probably not if the past is anything to go by. The reopened Youghal line stops halfway to its destination; Clonsilla/Navan ends in a field and the Green Luas line ends on top of a hill at Brides Glen instead of Bray. :rolleyes:

Ya troll!:D

17-04-2019 10:51pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

The WRC won't achieve anything like its full potential until it reaches Claremorris.

Ok, I'll bite, let's imagine pigs fly and it gets opened to Claremorris. A few questions if you don't mind

What do you anticipate the journey time to be from Claremorris to Galway if such a route existed?

How much would it cost for a commuter when compared to the cost for a bus ticket for the same journey?

jasper100 · 17-04-2019 10:54pm

L1011 wrote: »

Actual figures?

The article doesnt say, but I looked on irish rail and its €7.49 each way with 2 trains sold out each way already.

I would think its well busy at those prices!

jasper100 · 17-04-2019 10:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you anticipate the journey time to be from Claremorris to Galway if such a route existed?

Once its double tracked with 100mph line speed I would estimate 30 minutes.

Muckyboots · 17-04-2019 11:12pm

jasper100 wrote: »

Once its double tracked with 100mph line speed I would estimate 30 minutes.

I hear they are planning to run it underground through Tuam and CPOing and demolishing a dozen houses between Milltown and Kilbannon to get speeds up to 150kmh.

JCX BXC · 18-04-2019 3:27am

jasper100 wrote: »

The article doesnt say, but I looked on irish rail and its €7.49 each way with 2 trains sold out each way already.

I would think its well busy at those prices!

The trains never sell out, it's just too late to book them.

I'm a regular user of the WRC, including the infamous Ennis-Athenry section, and ridership is quite good, even at the slow times. Always a good few on the train nowadays. Adrahan could do with closing down to improve journey times, ridership there does not justify a station.

Del.Monte · 18-04-2019 9:53am

Truth is that stations like Ardrahan and Craughwell should have been reopened as request stops thereby cutting down on expensive overkill at said stations - lighting, fencing, car parks, ticket machines...It can be done on the other side of the Irish Sea but not here.

Muckyboots · 18-04-2019 10:27am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Truth is that stations like Ardrahan and Craughwell should have been reopened as request stops thereby cutting down on expensive overkill at said stations - lighting, fencing, car parks, ticket machines...It can be done on the other side of the Irish Sea but not here.

I agree. The technology for this has been around for decades but I think you would have more objections to this idea from rail advocates than you would have from doubters.

L1011 · 18-04-2019 10:27am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Truth is that stations like Ardrahan and Craughwell should have been reopened as request stops thereby cutting down on expensive overkill at said stations - lighting, fencing, car parks, ticket machines...It can be done on the other side of the Irish Sea but not here.

There are minimum requirements for a new station which do not apply to grandfathered old stations. Lighting, fencing etc would be required at a new build request stop also.

Actually - if you've no lighting how the hell do you expect the driver to see you flag them down?

jasper100 · 18-04-2019 10:27am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Truth is that stations like Ardrahan and Craughwell should have been reopened as request stops thereby cutting down on expensive overkill at said stations - lighting, fencing, car parks, ticket machines...It can be done on the other side of the Irish Sea but not here.

If you live in Ardrahan or Craughwell they are each about 10km from Athenry / Gort.

No need for stations in these hamlets at all. Drive to Gort or Ardrahan. There is no station at Long pavement for example which is close to Thomond park and Limerick city and would have much better potential along the WRC.

Lord Glentoran · 18-04-2019 12:50pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

I agree. The technology for this has been around for decades but I think you would have more objections to this idea from rail advocates than you would have from doubters.

Nope, I agree with Del.Monte on this.

Ray Bloody Purchase · 18-04-2019 1:29pm

jasper100 wrote: »

Once its double tracked with 100mph line speed I would estimate 30 minutes.

Best laugh I had all day.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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