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Marathon Improvers Thread.

24567…39

Comments

  • #52
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Progression runs are my favourite and I always feel I come on great in the weeks after them. McMillan has a few as well as what he calls fast finish long runs where you run most of the run easy and do the last 2 miles as close to 10k pace as you can. P+D recommends a range of paces for long runs and your supposed to move towards the faster end of this range over the course of the run - the runs where I managed this were great. I've enjoyed the long runs with "stuff" in the Meno plan too. There's always a couple of a sessions towards the end of any plan that look way too hard when you start the plan and banging out any of these is great for the confidence. And overall view would be the more aerobic easy miles I did the more I progressed, regardless of individual sessions. Also doing P+D greatly improved my ability to recover from hard sessions and long runs.


  • #53
    chickey2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭chickey2


    adrian522 wrote: »
    For me it was lots of miles @ MP, during the long run and also just on their own. Both of the plans I followed had plenty of this. Long run with MP at the end is very good also.

    Meno has 14 Miles @ MP at the end of his plan, you know if you can get through that you are pretty well set for the race.

    Was just about to post the same! Knowing I could do 14 miles at MP gave me the confidence to know I could do 26.2. Knowing my MP so well also prevented me from going out too fast at the beginning. My first marathon had a a huge positive split, but my second (using the meno plan) was almost equal splits (1:58/2:00).

    I've no plans for any marathons this year but this thread is already tempting me!


  • #54
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    Yeah, I'd even splits from following the meno plan too. 1:43:05/1:43:51


  • #55
    JohnDozer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭JohnDozer


    adrian522 wrote: »
    For me it was lots of miles @ MP, during the long run and also just on their own. Both of the plans I followed had plenty of this. Long run with MP at the end is very good also.
    e day
    Meno has 14 Miles @ MP at the end of his plan, you know if you can get through that you are pretty well set for the race.

    I think this is the element of the marathon training I'm most looking forward to this time around. I do have a recollection of doing some MP tempo sessions, along with speedwork intervals and long runs on other efforts, but nothing like the volume of MP miles on this plan. I'd imagine it lends itself to a great confidence in the ability to hold the pace when race day comes around?


  • #56
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    The graduates plan has beginner and intermediate versions. Is beginner a little ahead of novices, but not quite immediate standard? Both look manageable. It's some of the more complicated spreadsheets in the thread is where I get lost easily. I'm not sure what to


    I'd say beginner is same as Novice , so probably intermediate plan would suit, if you do about 9 miles on you LR, run first 3 easy, second 3 about 30 sec slower than MP and last 3 at MP, you wouldn't need to be running any more than 10 miles on LR before training begins for DCM. If you are running 5 days not really time to be cutting down just keep up 5 days. I think these type of runs bring you along and are good introduction to running MP sessions.
    This website is still down, unfortunately. http://www.runningprs.com/calc2/index.php



    What does LT refer to?


    LT about 20 sec mile slower than 5k race pace, or pace you could race at for about an hour. So about 8.45-8.50 a mile. LT pace will continue to decrease as your race times improve.
    Last point - yes, bit of an issue at times... :o

    I think if you build from where you are now and keep reassessing every 5 weeks or so, and after each race you do over cycle, you may find your time target comes to nearer where you want, but no point in picking a target time yet just work from where you are.


  • #57
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    JohnDozer wrote: »
    I think this is the element of the marathon training I'm most looking forward to this time around. I do have a recollection of doing some MP tempo sessions, along with speedwork intervals and long runs on other efforts, but nothing like the volume of MP miles on this plan. I'd imagine it lends itself to a great confidence in the ability to hold the pace when race day comes around?

    It does but it is important to run to actual MP effort not aspirational MP. In other words run to your current ability not your target pace for 3-4 months time.

    Don't feel de-motvated if MP seems harder than you were expecting at the start. Just trust in the plan etc.


  • #58
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    I really enjoyed MP sessions on Meno plan, gave real confidence of being able to hit MP effort, also liked progression runs and running 20 sec faster and slower than MP as it prepares you for some faster running on the day, when mile markers don't line up with Garmin and it doesn't frighten you to see 10 or 15 sec
    Faster than planned popping up on watch, defiantly makes you mentally prepared.

    But I have been doing good bit of LT running lately and it makes MP miles feel easy, as long as you stick to correct effort, definitely getting better feel for effort rather than exact pace on watch and it can change from run to run depending on terrain and weather and general tiredness.


  • #59
    JohnDozer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭JohnDozer


    adrian522 wrote: »
    It does but it is important to run to actual MP effort not aspirational MP. In other word run to your current ability not your target pace for 3-4 months time.

    Don't feel de-motvated if MP seems harder than you were expecting at the start. Just trust in the plan etc.

    That's actually something I'm thinking about quite a bit at present, in terms of what to do. Plugging race results from the last few months into various calculators (mainly McMillan and VDOT) have me in the vicinity of 3:15/3:20. The only thing is, past experiences have me in a very cautious mindset, to the extent that I would take your hand off for 3:30, and probably even settle for a 3:40 as a next step on the journey. What I really want and haven't managed it yet, is to run from the start line to the finish line without stopping. I do recall saying that somewhere before, but it's still important. Anyway, back on track, what this in effect means is that my MP would be in or around what I am currently doing some of my shorter easy runs in. I still haven't worked out how to approach this particular scenario. On one level I should just train at the paces generated by the predictor, but I've been bitten a few times.

    I'm actually feeling an awful sense of deja vu even writing those words.


  • #60
    average_runner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,855 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    JohnDozer wrote: »
    That's actually something I'm thinking about quite a bit at present, in terms of what to do. Plugging race results from the last few months into various calculators (mainly McMillan and VDOT) have me in the vicinity of 3:15/3:20. The only thing is, past experiences have me in a very cautious mindset, to the extent that I would take your hand off for 3:30, and probably even settle for a 3:40 as a next step on the journey. What I really want and haven't managed it yet, is to run from the start line to the finish line without stopping. I do recall saying that somewhere before, but it's still important. Anyway, back on track, what this in effect means is that my MP would be in or around what I am currently doing some of my shorter easy runs in. I still haven't worked out how to approach my own particular scenario. On one level I should just train at the paces generated by the predictor, but I've been bitten a few times.

    I'm actually feeling an awful sense of deja vu even writing those words.

    McMillan is always a bit optimistic.


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  • #61
    cullenswood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭cullenswood


    overthebridge wrote: »
    I amended/butchered the 18 week P&D to suit my work/life pattern. I can send it onto you if you wish ?

    That'd be great alright. Thanks. Always interested in other / amended plans. I'll PM you my email.


  • #62
    Wottle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Wottle


    There's two things rattling round my head
    1. I'm in a good running place right now, what if marathon training jeopardises this?
    2. I only want to do it if I can run sub 3:30, won't really know that until a half in September, so when does the marathon sell out as I definitely won't be registering till after half.

    Background
    Marathon PB is from Dublin 2008 after only getting back into running around Feb that year (2002 before that) and running the Great Ire 10K in April in 54 mins. I ran 3:37 and it was my 3rd marathon in 9 weeks. Made loads of mistakes, my enthusiasm tends to get the better of me, all guns blazing for a brief period and then I disappear into nothing land.
    Any thoughts welcome.


  • #63
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    Wottle wrote: »
    There's two things rattling round my head
    1. I'm in a good running place right now, what if marathon training jeopardises this?
    2. I only want to do it if I can run sub 3:30, won't really know that until a half in September, so when does the marathon sell out as I definitely won't be registering till after half.

    Background
    Marathon PB is from Dublin 2008 after only getting back into running around Feb that year (2002 before that) and running the Great Ire 10K in April in 54 mins. I ran 3:37 and it was my 3rd marathon in 9 weeks. Made loads of mistakes, my enthusiasm tends to get the better of me, all guns blazing for a brief period and then I disappear into nothing land.
    Any thoughts welcome.

    You won't really know till you cross the line and finish, that's the best and worst thing about Marathon, big commitment and lots of uncertainty till 26.2xx completed, now you need to decide if it's worth the journey. I think if you pick right plan and train you have a good shot based on your quick improvements over a few months. Best of luck what ever you decide:)


  • #64
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    JohnDozer wrote: »
    I think this is the element of the marathon training I'm most looking forward to this time around. I do have a recollection of doing some MP tempo sessions, along with speedwork intervals and long runs on other efforts, but nothing like the volume of MP miles on this plan. I'd imagine it lends itself to a great confidence in the ability to hold the pace when race day comes around?

    I'll let you know on Sunday. :D


  • #65
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    I came across theses Steve Way BAC sessions while back:

    Steve Way blogpost

    I searched on this forum for something similiar and found the in AMK's training log:

    AMK log

    which links to here:

    http://www.bournemouthac.co.uk/training/BAC_Marathon_Sessions_2016.pdf

    These look like great sessions. I made half an attempt to incorporate them into the meno plan for Dublin, but gave up half way through. What do ye think? Would one of these sessions plus a long run or long run with "stuff" be enough or should there be one more LT or Tempo effort during the week as well?
    I know I said I was doing P+D, but I think If I could put the BAC sessions into some sort of coherent plan I'd do that instead.


  • #66
    kin9pin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭kin9pin


    Wottle wrote: »
    2. I only want to do it if I can run sub 3:30, won't really know that until a half in September, so when does the marathon sell out as I definitely won't be registering till after half.

    I think it sold out around 10th August last year and they then had a waiting list. Pretty sure I saw something a few days ago that 10,500 had already registered for this year.


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  • #67
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Wottle wrote: »
    There's two things rattling round my head
    1. I'm in a good running place right now, what if marathon training jeopardises this?
    2. I only want to do it if I can run sub 3:30, won't really know that until a half in September, so when does the marathon sell out as I definitely won't be registering till after half.

    Background
    Marathon PB is from Dublin 2008 after only getting back into running around Feb that year (2002 before that) and running the Great Ire 10K in April in 54 mins. I ran 3:37 and it was my 3rd marathon in 9 weeks. Made loads of mistakes, my enthusiasm tends to get the better of me, all guns blazing for a brief period and then I disappear into nothing land.
    Any thoughts welcome.


    Pull the trigger now and register. Pick a plan and get stuck in. Commit to it, plan for it, train for it. Run the half and you should see signs of improvement from marathon training alone. You might surprise yourself. What's the worse that could happen? Do any of your recent race times point to 3:30 marathon?


  • #68
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    hot buttered scones wrote: »
    I came across theses Steve Way BAC sessions while back:

    Steve Way blogpost

    I searched on this forum for something similiar and found the in AMK's training log:

    AMK log

    which links to here:

    http://www.bournemouthac.co.uk/training/BAC_Marathon_Sessions_2016.pdf

    These look like great sessions. I made half an attempt to incorporate them into the meno plan for Dublin, but gave up half way through. What do ye think? Would one of these sessions plus a long run or long run with "stuff" be enough or should there be one more LT or Tempo effort during the week as well?
    I know I said I was doing P+D, but I think If I could put the BAC sessions into some sort of coherent plan I'd do that instead.

    Where you changing Wednesday session for SW session.


  • #69
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    Where you changing Wednesday session for SW session.

    Yeah, that's what I did - all I did was stick the runs into a spreadsheet. The meno plan is 18 weeks long and SW has 15 weeks of Sessions, so I had a bit more to do wrt working in recovery from Cork and making sure I was running at least 15 at the weekend before starting the plan.

    I was thinking of maybe doing the odd parkrun too when I was off on a Saturday morning -which might only be two or three times over the course of the plan.

    If you look here http://www.steveway.co.uk/?page_id=864 you can see how the man himself did it for VLM13, but obviously he's a different breed altogether, so there's no way I'd be attempting anything like that!!


  • #70
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    hot buttered scones wrote: »
    Yeah, that's what I did - all I did was stick the runs into a spreadsheet. The meno plan is 18 weeks long and SW has 15 weeks of Sessions, so I had a bit more to do wrt working in recovery from Cork and making sure I was running at least 15 at the weekend before starting the plan.

    I was thinking of maybe doing the odd parkrun too when I was off on a Saturday morning -which might only be two or three times over the course of the plan.

    If you look here http://www.steveway.co.uk/?page_id=864 you can see how the man himself did it for VLM13, but obviously he's a different breed altogether, so there's no way I'd be attempting anything like that!!

    On my fist Marathon cycle, there was a Parkrun at tempo effort with w/u & c/d mile before an easy LR, think these where a benift and definitely prepared legs for the second half of the Marathon, just being used to that tired leg feeling that comes in latter part of LR, especially having given some effort the previous run.
    Maybe I'll experiment a bit more after this cycle, but think I'll stick with tried and tested for this one.


  • #71
    jaggiebunnet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭jaggiebunnet


    just registered for Dublin -- sub 3.30 attempt here we go. Done P&D for cork last year and did 3.32 heat got to me i have to admit. will follow same plan this year, maybe not as aggressive for MP - was attempting a 3.15 last year!


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  • #72
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Hi guys , just having a read of this thread good luck all.
    My own story is I ran a marathon in 2007 off not much training and ran 3:55 ish ( can't remember exactly just happy to be under the 4 hours at the time) .
    Between 2007 - 2015 I did little or no regular running. I started running consistently 3 days a week from about mid 2016 and have kept it up till now so I am as fit as I have ever been. So I took the plunge and signed up for Dublin, exactly 10 years after my one and only marathon I'm hoping to break 3:20 (that might be a tad optimistic).

    My pb's are - 5k 18:45 / 10k 40:20 (both of them are from this calendar year) haven't ran any other race distances yet.
    My weekly training looks like this
    Monday Rest
    Tuesday 10km easy
    Wednesday bike to work 30k round trip
    Thursday bike to work 30k and interval session 12*400 and 3k warm up
    Friday bike to work 30k
    Saturday Rest
    Sunday Half marathon slow
    I've ran a half marathon at relaxed pace the last 4 Sundays in a row I did these in 1hr 44mins.

    My plan is to keep going as I am and gradually increase the long run , do the race series and the 3/4 marathon in Athlone as my longest run. My only concern is I am not running enough? Is sub 3:30 a more realistic target? I could add another day running just not sure where to fit it in . Thanks


  • #73
    denis b
    Registered Users Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭denis b


    Murph_D wrote: »
    What kind of sessions do people feel have brought them on over the first few marathons?

    For me the progression runs certainly leave a very positive impression. Always feel as though I could manage plenty more of that. Have been keeping a sensible DCM 17 time in mind to see how a faster finish on the progression run feels at an even faster pace. Appreciate that it is an apple and oranges comparison but it sits well with me for now.


  • #74
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    Hi guys , just having a read of this thread good luck all.
    My own story is I ran a marathon in 2007 off not much training and ran 3:55 ish ( can't remember exactly just happy to be under the 4 hours at the time) .
    Between 2007 - 2015 I did little or no regular running. I started running consistently 3 days a week from about mid 2016 and have kept it up till now so I am as fit as I have ever been. So I took the plunge and signed up for Dublin, exactly 10 years after my one and only marathon I'm hoping to break 3:20 (that might be a tad optimistic).

    My pb's are - 5k 18:45 / 10k 40:20 (both of them are from this calendar year) haven't ran any other race distances yet.
    My weekly training looks like this
    Monday Rest
    Tuesday 10km easy
    Wednesday bike to work 30k round trip
    Thursday bike to work 30k and interval session 12*400 and 3k warm up
    Friday bike to work 30k
    Saturday Rest
    Sunday Half marathon slow
    I've ran a half marathon at relaxed pace the last 4 Sundays in a row I did these in 1hr 44mins.

    My plan is to keep going as I am and gradually increase the long run , do the race series and the 3/4 marathon in Athlone as my longest run. My only concern is I am not running enough? Is sub 3:30 a more realistic target? I could add another day running just not sure where to fit it in . Thanks

    Your 5k and 10k times suggest 3.20 and faster would be on the cards,just need to get a plan to suite you, I think you need more running days when you start
    into full Marathon training. I think if you had a look at the MENO plan which I think is posted earlier in thread it would give you a better idea of a full on Marathon plan. Best of luck.


  • #75
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    Your 5k and 10k times suggest 3.20 and faster would be on the cards,just need to get a plan to suite you, I think you need more running days when you start
    into full Marathon training. I think if you had a look at the MENO plan which I think is posted earlier in thread it would give you a better idea of a full on Marathon plan. Best of luck.

    Thank you that plan looks very similar to what I'm doing so perfect, I'll follow that roughly and add days to make up mileage, there are 3:20 pacers so I'll use 3:20 as my planned marathon pace for runs .


  • #76
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,508 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    I think if you build from where you are now and keep reassessing every 5 weeks or so, and after each race you do over cycle, you may find your time target comes to nearer where you want, but no point in picking a target time yet just work from where you are.

    Couldn't run tonight due to working late. I'll try tomorrow, Thurs and Sat and/or Sun.

    If I'm reading correctly, I wouldn't need to start the intermediate marathon graduates plan until the week of July 24th, to reach DCM 2017. In the meantime, I was thinking of starting the 10k-HM to keep myself ticking over. I'm not sure how progression runs would fit in on that front. Use the last bit of 1 hour 45 on Sundays to run at MP? :confused: Is that sufficient? Or lengthen each Sunday gradually, whilst still running the last 2-3 miles at MP. Maybe reassess paces at the end of June, after testing myself out at a park run as you alluded to in post 46.

    I'm a little thrown by the nitty gritty of the Meno to tackle that, tbh. Well, some of the Wednesdays, certainly. If I may whine further for the moment, it always feels like I'll just be an average runner - primarily by ability, not a lack of willingness to try. If I ran 4:15 I'd be disappointed, to say the least (not overthinking times before this thread, honest). Life can get in the way of extensive training too and perhaps I should leave my expectations at 4:XX+.

    Appreciate the feedback, Kenny.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #77
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    I ran 3:22 last year off a 19:58 5k and a 42:01 10k so I'd agree with Kennyg71 - 3:20 or even faster. Plenty of MP sessions should give you an idea of what's achievable.


  • #78
    Spirogyra
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Spirogyra


    I'm hoping to do the DCM in October. My p.b. (from 2 previous attempts) is 3'59 , am fitter now again, so hoping that 3'50 at least might be achievable now. Do others here still do Interval Training or Tempo Runs as part of their 'plan'?:)


  • #79
    kin9pin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭kin9pin


    Spirogyra wrote: »
    I'm hoping to do the DCM in October. My p.b. (from 2 previous attempts) is 3'59 , am fitter now again, so hoping that 3'50 at least might be achievable now. Do others here still do Interval Training or Tempo Runs as part of their 'plan'?:)

    Check out the "meno" plan from the first post, there's some really interesting sessions on Wednesdays. I'll be following it for DCM (also my 3rd marathon) and I think quite a few others on here are also looking at it.


  • #80
    Wottle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Wottle


    hot buttered scones wrote: »
    Pull the trigger now and register. Pick a plan and get stuck in. Commit to it, plan for it, train for it. Run the half and you should see signs of improvement from marathon training alone. You might surprise yourself. What's the worse that could happen? Do any of your recent race times point to 3:30 marathon?

    What have I Done :-) as you said above, what's the worst that can happen?

    Only times so far is a half back in April off no training or very little 2:05 and most recently a 37:28 from Terenure off 35 days training, that gives a 3:40 but I've never had a 5 mile time translate into a realistic marathon time, need a 10 miler or half at least.

    Regarding plans, I've never stuck to one and can't see myself following one, I've a decent grasp of what has to be done and will more than likely do out some guidelines based around consistency.


  • #81
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Yevon wrote:
    Can I just pick up a plan in August after the R&R Half and complete the final 8 weeks or so of it? Or should I be rolling back my distance and starting from scratch? I'm keen to break 4 hours, from reading up on it people seem to say running the first half in 1.50 and the second in 2.10 is the way people usually get there. Do the pacers just run at a steady 2 hour HM pace throughout?


    Just a quick answer for now - there's plenty of 12 week plans out there which should be ok for you.
    What your talking about in terms of marathon times is a positive split. You should generally try for even splits (2+2) or preferably slightly negative (2:02+1.58 e.g.). Positive splits generally result from going out too fast and fading. I'd view a 20 minute positive split as a bit of disaster (for me personally).


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  • #82
    clickerquicklic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 812 ✭✭✭clickerquicklic


    I've the opposite problem I normally start too slow and run the second half much more aggressively , psychologically for me anyway I leave races feeling better after finishing stronger , even if I didn't better my time. My latest 10k which was a pb for me I ran 21:30 for first 5k and 18:50 for second half . For me second halves of races I am motivated by passing people and seem to go faster.
    As a disclaimer I'm not a great runner so take advice with pinch of salt !
    For the marathon my plan will be 3:20 so I'll go with pacers but no matter how good I feel ( I am expecting 3:20 pace to feel slow as it does in easy runs ) I'll be sticking with them till 32k and if I'm still feeling good I'll be giving it all I can for last 10k . Going out and doing 1:50/2:10 means your slowing down and trying to hang on it doesn't sound like a good plan imo


  • #83
    boydkev
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭boydkev


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    I've the opposite problem I normally start too slow and run the second half much more aggressively , psychologically for me anyway I leave races feeling better after finishing stronger , even if I didn't better my time. My latest 10k which was a pb for me I ran 21:30 for first 5k and 18:50 for second half . For me second halves of races I am motivated by passing people and seem to go faster.
    As a disclaimer I'm not a great runner so take advice with pinch of salt !
    For the marathon my plan will be 3:20 so I'll go with pacers but no matter how good I feel ( I am expecting 3:20 pace to feel slow as it does in easy runs ) I'll be sticking with them till 32k and if I'm still feeling good I'll be giving it all I can for last 10k . Going out and doing 1:50/2:10 means your slowing down and trying to hang on it doesn't sound like a good plan imo

    I think i need to look at my longer races over 10k in this mindset. I have been going out too fast and getting time in the bank but what happens is i have a slow mile and think i am fine as i have made up time, but that gets worse near the end of the race.


  • #84
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    Couldn't run tonight due to working late. I'll try tomorrow, Thurs and Sat and/or Sun.

    If I'm reading correctly, I wouldn't need to start the intermediate marathon graduates plan until the week of July 24th, to reach DCM 2017. In the meantime, I was thinking of starting the 10k-HM to keep myself ticking over. I'm not sure how progression runs would fit in on that front. Use the last bit of 1 hour 45 on Sundays to run at MP? :confused: Is that sufficient? Or lengthen each Sunday gradually, whilst still running the last 2-3 miles at MP. Maybe reassess paces at the end of June, after testing myself out at a park run as you alluded to in post 46.

    I'm a little thrown by the nitty gritty of the Meno to tackle that, tbh. Well, some of the Wednesdays, certainly. If I may whine further for the moment, it always feels like I'll just be an average runner - primarily by ability, not a lack of willingness to try. If I ran 4:15 I'd be disappointed, to say the least (not overthinking times before this thread, honest). Life can get in the way of extensive training too and perhaps I should leave my expectations at 4:XX+.

    Appreciate the feedback, Kenny.

    Just count back 14 weeks from race to get start time, you could keep ticking over on 10k plan and build your LR towards 2 hrs running for start of plan, progression run would be starting at your slow run pace then every 30 mins or so increasing pace slightly till you reach slightly higher than your current mp for last 20 mins or so, it will teach your body to adjust to increase in speed and get it out of the 1 gear Hal hig plan. You only need to do this every other week, maybe the week of you slow LR, do a park run the previous day and give it a bit of effort but not flat out. You should start to see improvements over a few weeks and maybe in about 5 weeks give Park run a full blast out then gauge your training paces for Marathon plan, graduates plan just runs by time instead of miles but will get you to same place.


  • #85
    Clearlier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    I've the opposite problem I normally start too slow and run the second half much more aggressively , psychologically for me anyway I leave races feeling better after finishing stronger , even if I didn't better my time. My latest 10k which was a pb for me I ran 21:30 for first 5k and 18:50 for second half . For me second halves of races I am motivated by passing people and seem to go faster.
    As a disclaimer I'm not a great runner so take advice with pinch of salt !
    For the marathon my plan will be 3:20 so I'll go with pacers but no matter how good I feel ( I am expecting 3:20 pace to feel slow as it does in easy runs ) I'll be sticking with them till 32k and if I'm still feeling good I'll be giving it all I can for last 10k . Going out and doing 1:50/2:10 means your slowing down and trying to hang on it doesn't sound like a good plan imo

    I think that aiming to run a negative split (2nd half faster) can be the perfect strategy for many people but all other things being equal (no dramatic change in course profile etc.) I'd work on reducing the size of the difference. Most people with a PB of 41 flat for a 10k wouldn't be able to run an 18:50 5k never mind as the second half of a 10k.

    Incidentally 18:50 for a 5k has you pretty close to 3 hour marathon territory assuming that you're appropriately trained for a marathon and 41:20 would be somewhere around 3:10.


  • #86
    Clearlier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    hot buttered scones wrote: »
    I came across theses Steve Way BAC sessions while back:

    Steve Way blogpost

    I searched on this forum for something similiar and found the in AMK's training log:

    AMK log

    which links to here:

    http://www.bournemouthac.co.uk/training/BAC_Marathon_Sessions_2016.pdf

    These look like great sessions. I made half an attempt to incorporate them into the meno plan for Dublin, but gave up half way through. What do ye think? Would one of these sessions plus a long run or long run with "stuff" be enough or should there be one more LT or Tempo effort during the week as well?
    I know I said I was doing P+D, but I think If I could put the BAC sessions into some sort of coherent plan I'd do that instead.

    Hi HBS - I was running in the same club as Steve when we started doing those sessions. They were designed with the help/inspiration of Liz Yelling (British Olympic marathon runner) and I wouldn't really prescribe them for intermediate runners.

    They're sexy and tick a lot of the boxes that we think we need to tick for successful marathon running. The people who did best with them had a background of several years running though, usually of medium to high mileage and coming into the training cycle they were coming from a base of doing relatively hard intervals at least once a week i.e. they were well accustomed to running at high intensity twice a week.

    For the average intermediate marathon runner who has been running a couple of years and has run one or two marathons off 30 - 40 mpw, maybe touching 50mpw occasionally I'd advise something a little simpler. There's so much scope still for improvement at that stage that you don't need to get into complicated multi-pace sessions. You get more bang for you buck elsewhere. I'd certainly do P&D before doing the BAC sessions.


  • #87
    Spirogyra
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Spirogyra


    Have others ran 'good' marathons, running just 3 days per week ? , I'm running really well, on just 3 days per week, plus usually a fitness class in a gym, but do I need to up to 4 for marathon ?.

    The tedium of lsr today, slowly on my own, was driving me a bit...then my back-pack was robbed I later discovered.....


  • #88
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    Clearlier wrote: »
    Hi HBS - I was running in the same club as Steve when we started doing those sessions. They were designed with the help/inspiration of Liz Yelling (British Olympic marathon runner) and I wouldn't really prescribe them for intermediate runners.

    They're sexy and tick a lot of the boxes that we think we need to tick for successful marathon running. The people who did best with them had a background of several years running though, usually of medium to high mileage and coming into the training cycle they were coming from a base of doing relatively hard intervals at least once a week i.e. they were well accustomed to running at high intensity twice a week.

    For the average intermediate marathon runner who has been running a couple of years and has run one or two marathons off 30 - 40 mpw, maybe touching 50mpw occasionally I'd advise something a little simpler. There's so much scope still for improvement at that stage that you don't need to get into complicated multi-pace sessions. You get more bang for you buck elsewhere. I'd certainly do P&D before doing the BAC sessions.

    +1 on this

    Training does not have to be overly complicated

    Just look at Alyson Dixon's training in the build up to her London marathon where she was top British finisher.

    Plenty of miles, consistent training and long runs on tired legs.


  • #89
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    Clearlier wrote:
    For the average intermediate marathon runner who has been running a couple of years and has run one or two marathons off 30 - 40 mpw, maybe touching 50mpw occasionally I'd advise something a little simpler. There's so much scope still for improvement at that stage that you don't need to get into complicated multi-pace sessions. You get more bang for you buck elsewhere. I'd certainly do P&D before doing the BAC sessions.


    Thanks for the insight and advice. I'll come back to this another day when I'm feeling a bit stronger!!

    No improvement for me today anyway. Ran with the 3:15 pacers but lost them around mile 12 and did a death march home to finish in 3.29:45. Conditions got the better of me and my breathing was all over the place. I'll go into more detail in my log but it was a bit of a Murphy's law day. Still, that's marathon no. 4 done. Dublin next. Same goal as today. I need to have a think about the plan. I also need to stop messing around with S+C work.


  • #90
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,508 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    Just count back 14 weeks from race to get start time, you could keep ticking over on 10k plan and build your LR towards 2 hrs running for start of plan, progression run would be starting at your slow run pace then every 30 mins or so increasing pace slightly till you reach slightly higher than your current mp for last 20 mins or so, it will teach your body to adjust to increase in speed and get it out of the 1 gear Hal hig plan. You only need to do this every other week, maybe the week of you slow LR, do a park run the previous day and give it a bit of effort but not flat out. You should start to see improvements over a few weeks and maybe in about 5 weeks give Park run a full blast out then gauge your training paces for Marathon plan, graduates plan just runs by time instead of miles but will get you to same place.

    Looks like my start date for the graduates intermediate plan would be the week of July 24th. Mocked up a spreadsheet a few days ago. Do you mean bring my Sundays from 1 hour 45 to 2 hours, every second week? Or do a few weeks of the 10k-HM plan and tweak after that? Warm up, LR easy, every 30 mins increase, as per your suggestion? Happy to consider changes - are watches good for logging the runs with paces chopping and change? Just asking from the point of view of usefulness and feedback if I do follow what you say. Thinking the data will become messy to interpret.

    Need to knock my snacking habits on the head. Not good.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

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  • #91
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    Looks like my start date for the graduates intermediate plan would be the week of July 24th. Mocked up a spreadsheet a few days ago. Do you mean bring my Sundays from 1 hour 45 to 2 hours, every second week? Or do a few weeks of the 10k-HM plan and tweak after that? Warm up, LR easy, every 30 mins increase, as per your suggestion? Happy to consider changes - are watches good for logging the runs with paces chopping and change? Just asking from the point of view of usefulness and feedback if I do follow what you say. Thinking the data will become messy to interpret.

    Need to knock my snacking habits on the head. Not good.

    Start to increase LR time by 2-3 mins a week up to 24th,no harm every 3 weeks to
    hold for a week before increasing again. Stick to HM structure if you do 1 session midweek as per plan and add in progression LR and Parkrun to plan and keep mileage ticking over till you start Marathon plan, your Marathon plan starts with 2 hour LR, so would be a big jump from 1.45 toe 2 hours if you don't start to build slowly from now. The watch is a good tool as you will see pace increasing as run progress, you can hit lap button at end of each section to get clearer picture, when you settle after few mins running at increased pace check out how you are feeling and how pace feels, at end 6 weeks or so MP pace should be becoming
    comfortably hard and should give you a good indication of pace you may be able to sustain for MP miles.


  • #92
    Testosterscone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭Testosterscone


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    Looks like my start date for the graduates intermediate plan would be the week of July 24th.

    Does the Graduates plan not have a base phase for 6 weeks also? (I thought the one I downloaded did anyway)


  • #93
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,508 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Testosterscone wrote: »
    Does the Graduates plan not have a base phase for 6 weeks also? (I thought the one I downloaded did anyway)

    Yes, it's in tab/sheet after the notes section of the spreadsheet.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8/edit#gid=950799331

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

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  • #94
    Kennyg71
    Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Kennyg71


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    Yes, it's in tab/sheet after the notes section of the spreadsheet.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOkLQ_a9NHWe97yaRkfF6ArFmCHmtf9y1tU0LR7uMr8/edit#gid=950799331

    Follow the base plan so, I use my phone, didn't spot the base phase, you have tempo runs, and progression runs built in and it builds to 2 hrs running so the jobs is oxo and its a natural fit with the rest of the plan.


  • #95
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,508 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    Follow the base plan so, I use my phone, didn't spot the base phase, you have tempo runs, and progression runs built in and it builds to 2 hrs running so the jobs is oxo and its a natural fit with the rest of the plan.

    I completed the base plan in January, followed by the 5-10k plan into the new year/Spring. Sounds like it's worth redoing the base rather than using the 10k-HM as a stop gap until the marathon plan?

    Coincidentally, I got an email today from McMillan re progression runs. Haven't read it all...yet.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

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  • #96
    S.L.F.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭S.L.F.


    Kennyg71 wrote: »
    Follow the base plan so, I use my phone, didn't spot the base phase, you have tempo runs, and progression runs built in and it builds to 2 hrs running so the jobs is oxo and its a natural fit with the rest of the plan.

    I think I'll follow Kenny's advice for this also and hop into the base plan. This will take me to the Fingal 10 km and then its start of marathon plan next day.


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  • #97
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    I finally decided that I'll definitely follow P+D for Dublin, but which one?
    First of all I'm going to follow one of there 5 week recovery plans form the book. This suits me because it coincides with the family holiday and I just don't want to train hard when I'm away this year. I've done it for the last two years - I enjoy running when I'm away, but I just don;t want to train hard this year.
    Anyway that brings me to the 9th of July. A 12 week programme would start on the 31st of July. So I'd have 3 weeks were I could just add a bit more mileage and just increase the long run a small bit and maybe fit in a couple of Wednesday evening races too.
    Or - and this where I'm leaning more - I could do a bit of a mix. If I do mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then jump into the 18 week plan I get a 15 week plan. I loose out of some of the endurance weeks, but I'm hoping that the training I've done for Cork will stand to me for this.
    The only question that remains is which plan - up to 55 or up to 70. I had good results with the up to 55 last year. For Cork though my mileage peaked at 67, and I had a few more weeks above 55. I think the ideal mileage for me is somewhere between the up to 55 and the up to 70. Also 6 days a week running suits me too. I have a few weeks left to decide what to do.


  • #98
    boydkev
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭boydkev


    I have seen a few people talking about the P&D plans, I have decided to go for a 3.30 DCM and still looking for a plan to keep me on track. Was looking at the HH Advanced but the weekend mileage looks tough with quite alot done at MP.
    Is it worth buying the Advanced Marathoning P&D book?


  • #99
    Itziger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭Itziger


    boydkev wrote: »
    I have seen a few people talking about the P&D plans, I have decided to go for a 3.30 DCM and still looking for a plan to keep me on track. Was looking at the HH Advanced but the weekend mileage looks tough with quite alot done at MP.
    Is it worth buying the Advanced Marathoning P&D book?

    Yes, I bought it years ago and even though it didn't quite do it for me, that was probably me more than the book :)


  • #100
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    boydkev wrote: »
    I have seen a few people talking about the P&D plans, I have decided to go for a 3.30 DCM and still looking for a plan to keep me on track. Was looking at the HH Advanced but the weekend mileage looks tough with quite alot done at MP.
    Is it worth buying the Advanced Marathoning P&D book?

    It's essential if you want to follow the plans. I went with the P+D up to 55 plan for Dublin last year. I started out with a goal of 3:30 which shifted to 3:25 during training and I ended up running 3:21:4x. It starts out handy enough, but it builds quickly, and I did find it quite tough in the end. I got a good result from it though. I don't think you'll find it any easier than the HH advanced plan though. for example 8 weeks out you'll do the following:
    Mon: Rest or C/T Tues: 7 miles Recovery with 6x100m strides: Wed: 11 miles with 7@LT (10m to HMP) Thurs: Rest or C/T Fri: 12 miles Medium Long Run Sat: 5 recovery Sun: 20 long. Total: 55
    P+D long runs aren't exactly LSRs either. You start out at MP+20% and you slowly increase pace until you finish off with around 5 miles at MP+10%. He also has a 3 tune up races on Saturday of around 10k with a long run of 16 or 17 miles on the Sunday. It is an advanced plan.


  • #101
    Megager
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭Megager


    I'm not sure where to go from here.

    I started running Jan 2016, did clontarf half in July 16 and dublin marathon in 2016. I'm 42 this year.

    I signed up for Dublin before cork marathon. Did my own version of a plan for cork which improved my time between 1st and second marathon s from 3:54 DCM 2016 to 3:25.40 in cork.
    In 2017 ive got half marathon down to 1:29:58 and 5 km to 18:27, so it seemed to suit to a point.

    Basically just went with 7m 5@ mp, 7m 5 @ mp, speed session, 7m easy, 7 (tempo) , rest and long runs and stuck to that most weeks. On occasion if I had rest days Fridays followed by a park run and few very easy miles. However I did my long runs too close to mp for a few months, in fact rather worryingly many of my long runs were a bit faster than I managed on the day. I think that may have contributed to my late race fade, i lost a minute or so in last 2 miles.

    I am limited a bit by time and real life as we all are but will commit to at least 5 days and most weeks 6 day running. The problem is I'm in Canada for 2 weeks in early August and that the nature of the trip is such that for 2 weeks I am unlikely to get any long runs in.

    I am not sure what improvement if any ive in me. I may have reached my limit, though there is a nagging dissatisfaction that I ran slower on the day than I did on many long runs. Should I stick to what I'm doing or is there a more efficient plan I should try. Also when would training for dublin need to start, bearing in mind ive just finished a cycle. I do think some rest is needed now before another assault.

    Thanks a million for reading this ramble.


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