Who would be called in?

true567 · 08-03-2015 9:00pm #1

If something like the Australian or Paris terrorist attacks happened in Dublin, or anywhere in Ireland for that matter, who would be the forces deployed?

I would assume it would be the Army Ranger Wing or does the Garda have a special force group for such matters? (i.e. the snipers providing support from a distance and the men entering the building)

This question is not a result of such attacks but instead is a curious thought regarding our defense forces. So please don't derail the thread by discussing such groups.

Also, perhaps it is just me but I would like more information regarding the Ranger Wing but cannot find the entry requirements regarding them? I was on the official website scrolling around but could not find a set list of requirements, so if anyone can better direct me that would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Zambia · 09-03-2015 2:00pm

In the Sydney case I would see it as an garda eru deployment just like the nsw police carried out that one.

Same in Paris

Alkers · 09-03-2015 2:12pm

I would think that if anyone was to storm any buildings it would be the rangers in place of the ERU

Zambia · 09-03-2015 2:17pm

Simona1986 wrote: »

I would think that if anyone was to storm any buildings it would be the rangers in place of the ERU

Why ? It's a police matter. The military is an aid to the civil power. Hence the gardai would have to ask the Rangers. Chances are they might not.

Alkers · 09-03-2015 2:37pm

Zambia wrote: »

Why ? It's a police matter. The military is an aid to the civil power. Hence the gardai would have to ask the Rangers. Chances are they might not.

It's just an opinion - in such a high-profile incident I would think that they would want the best guys on the job and I'd have thought the Rangers are more-advanced than the ERU? I know they do train together etc.

OP: I don't think you'll find much more than what is on the defence forces page, to apply you need to be in the PDF.

true567 · 09-03-2015 3:50pm

I appreciate the dialogue, I suppose its better we don't know the answer. I respect the secretiveness of the defense forces as on their page there is limited information, among other attributes of course.

I just wanted to know after watching both those sieges, because I know there are those in Ireland training hard- and I am also interested in possibly going out for the Ranger Wing- not saying I'd make it, not at all. But its truly an honorable way to make a living. Cheers

arybvtcw0eolkf · 09-03-2015 7:15pm

Zambia wrote: »

Why ? It's a police matter. The military is an aid to the civil power. Hence the gardai would have to ask the Rangers. Chances are they might not.

'Hire a thief to catch a thief'

Why use cops to go after militiamen/terrorists possibly armed to the teeth with military spec weapons & training (and possibly combat experience)?.

CharlieCroker · 09-03-2015 7:21pm

Kori Aggressive Wristband wrote: »

'Hire a thief to catch a thief'

Why use cops to go after militiamen/terrorists possibly armed to the teeth with military spec weapons & training (and possibly combat experience)?.

The ERU aren't going in with a big stick and pepper spray, they're as well armed and trained as any other comparable special operations unit.

Zambia · 09-03-2015 11:45pm

Kori Aggressive Wristband wrote: »

'Hire a thief to catch a thief'

Why use cops to go after militiamen/terrorists possibly armed to the teeth with military spec weapons & training (and possibly combat experience)?.

With respect the weaponry of the ERU would be on par with a lot of sf units. The Sydney seige was one deranged eejit with a shotgun. While he was a fanatic he was by no means a seasoned terrorist.

Now a siege with a shotgun is the bread and butter of the garda armed units. Sieges occur quite regularly and dissipate as the police tend to know how they pan out.

The Paris attack on the Charlie hebdo office was not a siege, the responding general duties units would never have suspected the force they encountered. However from that piont on the French police looked very formidable. The supermarket siege afterwards was also a police matter.

In all cases I don't think the military could guarantee no loss of life.

While both options get the job done within ireland should be seen as the Gardai's patch.

donvito99 · 10-03-2015 1:28am

It would be up to AGS to delegate to the DF and the Ranger Wing. They'd most likely be called upon in cases where the ERU are absolutely stretched in manpower and resources.

roundymac · 10-03-2015 7:41pm

For fecks sake Joan Burton was trapped in her car and the Gardai could do nothing about it.dealing with terrorists the ARW are the only people capable of dealing with. The seige at Abbylara was another Garda f**k up.

cppilot98 · 11-03-2015 11:54am

You can be quite sure or at least I would hope it's sure that various scenarios have been rehearsed and considered.

It's fairly certain that the ARW would come into play in the event of an obvious terrorist incident. They train for that scenario and in all probability have some experience already.

I very much doubt the ERU are on a par with any SF unit let alone the ARW. Which isn't to denigrate their expertise. But they're police at the end of the day and with due respect not the equivalent of the CIGN or GSG9.

It's also likely international expertise would be called on in the event of a non domestic terrorist incident like a hijacking or an embassy siege.

Zambia · 11-03-2015 2:26pm

cppilot98 wrote: »

You can be quite sure or at least I would hope it's sure that various scenarios have been rehearsed and considered.

It's fairly certain that the ARW would come into play in the event of an obvious terrorist incident. They train for that scenario and in all probability have some experience already.

I very much doubt the ERU are on a par with any SF unit let alone the ARW. Which isn't to denigrate their expertise. But they're police at the end of the day and with due respect not the equivalent of the CIGN or GSG9.

It's also likely international expertise would be called on in the event of a non domestic terrorist incident like a hijacking or an embassy siege.

Whats an obvious terrorist incident?

If you have one IS bandana wearing bloke with a knife and 1 hostage a terrorist incident?

Remember both the OP's examples were both handled by the countries/states police forces.

Fratton Fred · 11-03-2015 6:12pm

Am I correct in thinking the the ERU train regularly with the Met's SO19? If so, I would have thought they would be trained in anti terrorist operations.

riffmongous · 11-03-2015 8:29pm

cppilot98 wrote: »

You can be quite sure or at least I would hope it's sure that various scenarios have been rehearsed and considered.

It's fairly certain that the ARW would come into play in the event of an obvious terrorist incident. They train for that scenario and in all probability have some experience already.

I very much doubt the ERU are on a par with any SF unit let alone the ARW. Which isn't to denigrate their expertise. But they're police at the end of the day and with due respect not the equivalent of the CIGN or GSG9.

It's also likely international expertise would be called on in the event of a non domestic terrorist incident like a hijacking or an embassy siege.

GSG9 are a police unit though right? KSK is the army SF unit. Also the premier anti-terrorist unit in Austria is part of the police, EKO Cobra.

cppilot98 · 12-03-2015 12:51am

Zambia wrote: »

Whats an obvious terrorist incident?

Slightly surprised you don't understand the difference. But clearly it's an incident involving an individual group from an illegal para military organisation or other group with a political agenda as opposed to a mentally ill or drunk man waving a shotgun out the window of a cottage or someone attempting to rob a post office.

Ok?

riffmongous wrote: »

GSG9 are a police unit though right? KSK is the army SF unit. Also the premier anti-terrorist unit in Austria is part of the police, EKO Cobra.

GIGN is military, GSG9 are police too but essentially recruited from an armed para military force. Neither are directly comparable to the ERU which recruits from an unarmed police force.

Not sure why it seems to bother you that there might be a role for ARW in certain scenarios. The ERU work with the ARW and it's no secret that the ARW have a role in counter terrorism. The defence forces Facebook page was recently highlighting an exercise involving ARW boarding a ferry at sea. The also practice other hostage situation involving aircraft and buildings. They do have a domestic role but obviously not involving watching bank robbers or drug dealers.

Zambia · 12-03-2015 1:17am

cppilot98 wrote: »

Slightly surprised you don't understand the difference. But clearly it's an incident involving an individual group from an illegal para military organisation or other group with a political agenda as opposed to a mentally ill or drunk man waving a shotgun out the window of a cottage or someone attempting to rob a post office.

So your saying as soon as someone shouts something political the Garda should hand everything over to the Army?

No not ok.

cppilot98 wrote: »

GIGN is military, GSG9 are police too but essentially recruited from an armed para military force. Neither are directly comparable to the ERU which recruits from an unarmed police force.

What how much time do you think a European Police force spends on the range? The fact they are routinely armed does not equate to them all being crack shots.

cppilot98 wrote: »

Not sure why it seems to bother you that there might be a role for ARW in certain scenarios. The ERU work with the ARW and it's no secret that the ARW have a role in counter terrorism. The defence forces Facebook page was recently highlighting an exercise involving ARW boarding a ferry at sea. The also practice other hostage situation involving aircraft and buildings. They do have a domestic role but obviously not involving watching bank robbers or drug dealers.

I don't dispute they can be called in but the days are fast declining that they will be. The fact of the matter is Drug Gangs are now far more likely to be involved in police shootouts than terrorists in Ireland.

The Garda do have the men, weapons and training to handle any foreseeable siege type event on the mainland of Ireland. If they dont well then they should be brought up to speed quickly.

Atlantic Dawn · 12-03-2015 1:19am

They would simply wait until the time the hostage takers said their daily prayers and then hit the place, simple, it's their one idiotic weakness with all their fancy planning and equipment.

evo2000 · 12-03-2015 1:29am

Call in the army rangers because it would be soooo much coooler send em in 300 style phalanx and all just for added badassness, also im going to be a ranger because rangers are cool go rangers....

all piss taking aside tho of course the ERU would be able to handle a situation like that and be just aswell armed as the rangers if not better for such a scenario, there wouldnt be much point in the ERU if they couldnt manage situations like that.

qt3.14 · 12-03-2015 1:29am

I've no particular basis for the opinion but I wouldn't expect to see the armed forces called into a single continuing situation like Paris or Sydney. If there was a sustained assault on the state ie multiple attacks over time I could see the ERU getting overstretched and then the nod given.

knucklehead6 · 12-03-2015 8:34am

cppilot98 wrote: »

It's also likely international expertise would be called on in the event of a non domestic terrorist incident like a hijacking or an embassy siege.

Are you for real with this one???

I know we depend on the RAF to defend our skies (an argument for another thread) but i don't see any possible reason for any "international involvement" in an incident that happens in Ireland.

The ARW are fairly highly regarded internationally.

AbusesToilets · 17-03-2015 8:31pm

I'd be pretty surprised if it was actually a police unit that responded to the siege in Sydney.

Zambia · 17-03-2015 10:35pm

It was the NSW police tactical operations group.

imperator567 · 17-03-2015 11:44pm

Outdated drill in the pic, these days a snake formation is used (learned the hard way in Afghanistan) and point man has an anti ballistic shield.

They have no experience of dealing with suicide bombers, especially at multiple entry/exit points.

Nor equipment that Special Forces anti terrorism units use like Wall Breaching Cannon/Harvey wallbangers.

In any significant terrorist incident the Wing would be called in.

In any complex and extended incident, UK SF who they now train with would support with logistics and expertise.

Zambia · 17-03-2015 11:52pm

imperator567 wrote: »

Outdated drill in the pic, these days a snake formation is used (learned the hard way in Afghanistan) and point man has an anti ballistic shield.

They have no experience of dealing with suicide bombers, especially at multiple entry/exit points.

Nor equipment that Special Forces anti terrorism units use like Wall Breaching Cannon/Harvey wallbangers.

In any significant terrorist incident the Wing would be called in.

In any complex and extended incident, UK SF who they now train with would support with logistics and expertise.

describe a significant terrorist threat?

imperator567 · 17-03-2015 11:57pm

Zambia wrote: »

describe a significant terrorist threat?

A well armed and significant number of terrorists in a complex ongoing operation, could be a cinema, theater, school and more then one location.

Highly unlikely but possible.

imperator567 · 18-03-2015 12:00am

Also multiple terrorists armed with heavy machine guns, RPGs, grenades etc.

The ERU are not trained for such scenarios.

imperator567 · 18-03-2015 12:03am

Apologies, its not letting me edit, poison gas, chemical, biological weapons etc.

evo2000 · 18-03-2015 12:05am

imperator567 wrote: »

Apologies, its not letting me edit, poison gas, chemical, biological weapons etc.

All highly highly unlikely, its safe to say unless of the rarest of circumstances the arw would never be called in.

There was an incident near where i live where grenades were being used and it was the ERU that was called in also.

imperator567 · 18-03-2015 12:10am

evo2000 wrote: »

All highly highly unlikely, its safe to say unless of the rarest of circumstances the arw would never be called in.

There was an incident near where i live where grenades were being used and it was the ERU that was called in also.

Hijacking of a ferry or airplane is another, the Wing rappelled onto a ferry only a couple of years ago.

Its on you tube, excellent drills.

Zambia · 18-03-2015 12:14am

imperator567 wrote: »

Also multiple terrorists armed with heavy machine guns, RPGs, grenades etc.

The ERU are not trained for such scenarios.

Not quite what we are talking about but in the case above chances are the military would be summoned.

But I stress it's highly unlikely to occur.

imperator567 · 18-03-2015 12:35am

Zambia wrote: »

Not quite what we are talking about but in the case above chances are the military would be summoned.

But I stress it's highly unlikely to occur.

But even in a fluid and evolving Paris type incident with armed terrorists roaming loose after a significant incident, ie a multiple murder, the Wing would be called in. As French Special Forces were.

Zambia · 18-03-2015 12:45am

French police had two major events unfolding , no surprise they required another tactical unit.

Maoltuile · 19-03-2015 2:06am

Simona1986 wrote: »

I would think that if anyone was to storm any buildings it would be the rangers in place of the ERU

Definitely. I remember the so-called Athy 'shootout', among (rumoured) other f**kups. Not the Guards' finest moment.

Zambia · 19-03-2015 3:02pm

Maoltuile wrote: »

Definitely. I remember the so-called Athy 'shootout', among (rumoured) other f**kups. Not the Guards' finest moment.

Doesn't read terribly

In January 1990, one of five armed criminals was killed by a team from the Garda Emergency Response Unit, during a hostage-taking at a bank in Athy, County Kildare. Five raiders, each armed, from a prominent Dublin based criminal gang attempted to steal cash from the bank, but had been followed by an undercover unit from the ERU, following a spate of violent robberies in the Greater Dublin Area. When the armed gang attempted to raid the bank, they were surrounded by ERU operatives, and resorted to taking staff, customers and passers-by hostage. An ERU marksman shot one gang member in the head from long range. Austin Higgins (26), who was on bail from robbery charges at the time, was fatally wounded. Eight people were injured during the incident, but all of the hostages were freed and survived. The remaining gang of four who were armed, but did not fire their weapons, were apprehended (two of whom were shot but survived) by Gardaí and later received 12 year prison sentences.[26]

What is your issue?

evo2000 · 19-03-2015 6:10pm

Zambia wrote: »

Doesn't read terribly

What is your issue?

The issue is the eru are not as cool as the ARW clearly...

Morpheus · 19-03-2015 6:13pm

Closing this thread until ive time to read to ensure there are no OPSEC issues... please bare with me.

Morpheus · 23-03-2015 11:40am

Thread reopened, please observe OPSEC at all times, thanks.

DarkyHughes · 23-03-2015 5:48pm

The INLA or some paramilitary that has real life experience with terrorist & anti-terrorist situations.

evo2000 · 23-03-2015 8:03pm

Morpheus wrote: »

Thread reopened, please observe OPSEC at all times, thanks.

Are you for real? lol This is what happens when u get a small bit of power in the most insignificant of places you go mad! lol if the irish army is compromised by boards.ie then i think it has bigger issues than OPSEC...lol

Maoltuile · 23-03-2015 11:13pm

Zambia wrote: »

Doesn't read terribly

What is your issue?

You need to re-read, then. The ERU showed up, blasted anyone and everything in sight (including civilians and other Guards) like the Dirty Harry wannabes they are. The initial press reports - of course, since the 'crime correspondents' live by transcribing from leaks from the boys in blue - claimed that there was a shoot-out which caused all of these casualties, but it eventually came out that the gentlemen in the bank didn't fire a single shot.

If you think that this is fine, then you no doubt also think the Alamo was a roaring success.

Zambia · 24-03-2015 1:21am

Maoltuile wrote: »

You need to re-read, then. The ERU showed up, blasted anyone and everything in sight (including civilians and other Guards) like the Dirty Harry wannabes they are. The initial press reports - of course, since the 'crime correspondents' live by transcribing from leaks from the boys in blue - claimed that there was a shoot-out which caused all of these casualties, but it eventually came out that the gentlemen in the bank didn't fire a single shot.

If you think that this is fine, then you no doubt also think the Alamo was a roaring success.

Please provide a link to those accounts .

Morpheus · 24-03-2015 11:39am

evo2000 wrote: »

Are you for real? lol This is what happens when u get a small bit of power in the most insignificant of places you go mad! lol if the irish army is compromised by boards.ie then i think it has bigger issues than OPSEC...lol

No need to target a mod like this, real life got in the way
For those wondering, I saw the title, as a mod i temporarily decided to close the thread and I intended to just check over it for any opsec issues which may be there .however when i got home from work real life intervened and i didnt get the chance to read over it and subsequently forgot. . if any poster here might have any issues with how anyone moderates, consider engaging via PM.

Yellow card issued.

galwaycyclist · 24-03-2015 8:53pm

Maoltuile wrote: »

You need to re-read, then. The ERU showed up, blasted anyone and everything in sight (including civilians and other Guards) like the Dirty Harry wannabes they are. The initial press reports - of course, since the 'crime correspondents' live by transcribing from leaks from the boys in blue - claimed that there was a shoot-out which caused all of these casualties, but it eventually came out that the gentlemen in the bank didn't fire a single shot.

If you think that this is fine, then you no doubt also think the Alamo was a roaring success.

That is also my recollection.

Zambia · 24-03-2015 9:45pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

That is also my recollection.

Well then a link showing how you based your account should be easy for you to find.

evo2000 · 24-03-2015 11:02pm

Morpheus wrote: »

No need to target a mod like this, real life got in the way
For those wondering, I saw the title, as a mod i temporarily decided to close the thread and I intended to just check over it for any opsec issues which may be there .however when i got home from work real life intervened and i didnt get the chance to read over it and subsequently forgot. . if any poster here might have any issues with how anyone moderates, consider engaging via PM.

Yellow card issued.

It wasnt targeting you and i was not being uncivil, but seriously you are checking a post on boards.ie for OPSEC...its abit much dont yeah think? lol

The yellow card was also well over the top, are we not allowed to question some mod actions, since when is it uncivil to disagree with something?

salthillflyer · 24-03-2015 11:03pm

Now this is what is needed , I proposed this several times and it has fallen on deaf ears

There are many highly motivated members and ex members of the RDF , who be more that happy to assist with regional set ups for anti terrorist duties and any other roles that would require the use of force,

We are locally based and could be called out in minutes , just equip us with weapons , vehicles and away we go .

tac foley · 24-03-2015 11:20pm

Ah, you mean a militia?

Not sure if that's not prohibited under the current constitution. The real problem there might be handing over military firearms and other VERY specialised equipment to civilians acting in loco ARW.

Serving members of the PDF, who do this kind of thing, are already called the ARW. The 'ASU' bit does not trip off the tongue well, especially if you will recall that PIRA and their ilk - the RIRA, call themselves by this title.

Under whose overall authority are they likely to fall, AGS or the military?

You seem to be rather caught up with the 'use of force' part of it, too, and that in itself is a worrying thing to most people in government. If you had said 'sufficient force to effect control of situation that are outside the scope of AGS/ERU personnel, in the absence, or in support of the ARW' that might have flown better with me - not, of course, that it matters a hoot in my case.

Does the RoI have the equivalent of the UK's Aid to Civil Powers [in times of emergency]?

tac

Zambia · 24-03-2015 11:34pm

salthillflyer wrote: »

Now this is what is needed , I proposed this several times and it has fallen on deaf ears

There are many highly motivated members and ex members of the RDF , who be more that happy to assist with regional set ups for anti terrorist duties and any other roles that would require the use of force,

We are locally based and could be called out in minutes , just equip us with weapons , vehicles and away we go .

This just sounds like the Black and Tans

daithi55 · 24-03-2015 11:36pm

salthillflyer wrote: »

Now this is what is needed , I proposed this several times and it has fallen on deaf ears

There are many highly motivated members and ex members of the RDF , who be more that happy to assist with regional set ups for anti terrorist duties and any other roles that would require the use of force,

We are locally based and could be called out in minutes , just equip us with weapons , vehicles and away we go .

bob hope and no hope the pdf arent let do feck all ie have this kind of responsibility ... they aint going to give warlord part timers this role..

as a matter of interest where would said weapons be kept
under lock and key in an army barracks where their pdf falling over each other everyday looking for something to do... there not going to drag in a part timer from 20 miles out the road who is in the middle of wiring a socket or stacking a shelf or teaching school kids to come in and fill a role like this

stop dreaming... you refer to it as motivated id call it day dreaming

ohnonotgmail · 25-03-2015 12:24am

tac foley wrote: »

Ah, you mean a militia?

Not sure if that's not prohibited under the current constitution. The real problem there might be handing over military firearms and other VERY specialised equipment to civilians acting in loco ARW.

Serving members of the PDF, who do this kind of thing, are already called the ARW. The 'ASU' bit does not trip off the tongue well, especially if you will recall that PIRA and their ilk - the RIRA, call themselves by this title.

Under whose overall authority are they likely to fall, AGS or the military?

You seem to be rather caught up with the 'use of force' part of it, too, and that in itself is a worrying thing to most people in government. If you had said 'sufficient force to effect control of situation that are outside the scope of AGS/ERU personnel, in the absence, or in support of the ARW' that might have flown better with me - not, of course, that it matters a hoot in my case.

Does the RoI have the equivalent of the UK's Aid to Civil Powers [in times of emergency]?

tac

Pay no heed to him. He's a fantasist that has already been banned from the Aviation forum. And after only 3 posts. That must be a record.

To answer the last question yes they do have something very similar. EOD in the state is done by the defence forces for example.

Who would be called in?

Comments