proposed €19m tourist development of the HellFire Club

hmmm · 17-02-2019 10:56pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

More parking means more cars. We're going to end up with bigger full car parks AND still lines of cars parked on the road, endangering cyclists and walkers.

Not true, there will be double yellow lines on the road. Same as Glendalough. They'd do it now only there'd be uproar.

As for the number of cars, I'd be happy to see us having to deal with the problems of success, I'm sure we'll figure it out.

AndrewJRenko · 17-02-2019 11:07pm

hmmm wrote: »

Not true, there will be double yellow lines on the road. Same as Glendalough. They'd do it now only there'd be uproar.

As for the number of cars, I'd be happy to see us having to deal with the problems of success, I'm sure we'll figure it out.

We'll figure it out in the same way that we figure out illegal parking elsewhere in the city, presumably.

Ah sure, it's grand. Ah sure, he won't be long. Ah sure, he's only blocking most of the path, sure you can go out on the road with your wheelchair or your buggy or your family member with sight loss.

Grassey · 17-02-2019 11:41pm

hmmm wrote:

Not true, there will be double yellow lines on the road. Same as Glendalough. They'd do it now only there'd be uproar.

There is already double yellows and a solid white line...

20-02-2019 5:17pm

There are double yellows around the entrance to Hellfire and a continuous white line before or after. No parking in any of those areas. Most people forget that in the absence of other signage, a continuous white line in the centre of the road makes parking illegal.

Also, induced demand absolutely is a phenomenon.

hmmm · 20-02-2019 11:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, induced demand absolutely is a phenomenon.

What a terrible thing that would be. Imagine all those families going for a walk up around the Hellfire and Marley when they could be in the pub watching football.

Meanwhile families will continue to go up there, will continue to park on the road, and their kids will continue to run in and out of cars at risk of getting run over.

Grassey · 20-02-2019 11:27pm

So let's keep condoning illegal parking because people are outdoors? Even if its causing a risk to people walking along the road to Masseys/Hellfire/Timber trove. What an odd outlook!

27-02-2019 10:28am

hmmm wrote: »

What a terrible thing that would be. Imagine all those families going for a walk up around the Hellfire and Marley when they could be in the pub watching football.

Meanwhile families will continue to go up there, will continue to park on the road, and their kids will continue to run in and out of cars at risk of getting run over.

It's always unpleasant to see a relatively simple point fly so far above someone's head.

McGrath5 · 29-06-2020 5:05pm

Glad to see this has been approved by ABP.

Del.Monte · 29-06-2020 5:58pm

Mr Keogh said that the aim of the development was to “accommodate a large number and wider range of users” and that there would be economic benefits as the visitor centre would increase the “dwell time” of Hellfire Club visitors.

What does the mean? Ice cream and burger vans in the car park or is it just hyperbole?

Grassey · 29-06-2020 6:39pm

Freshly made Starbucks you can carry around the loop lest you die of dehydration on the 3k loop

Edgware · 30-06-2020 9:37am

Del.Monte wrote: »

Mr Keogh said that the aim of the development was to “accommodate a large number and wider range of users” and that there would be economic benefits as the visitor centre would increase the “dwell time” of Hellfire Club visitors.

What does the mean? Ice cream and burger vans in the car park or is it just hyperbole?

A bigger and more accessible car park will be welcomed by dogging enthusiasts

30-06-2020 3:19pm

It means nothing. Someone had this idea for a boondoggle and got enough people onboard to push ahead with it. There's absolutely no economic justification for it but the people behind it want to add legitimacy to it by waffling about jobs/the economy.

This fad about 'interpretative centres' is absolutely an ego thing. Build a decent website that explains the history of the building if putting up physical infor boards is somehow no longer possible as it has been for generations.

I don't mind more parking spaces (though it won't help at all with the illegal parking in the long run) or a cafe/toilets, but this is such a vacuous vanity project.

The DMW is 42km long, the Dublin Mountains in SDCC lands includes the likes of Kilmashogue, Cruagh, Tibradden, Ticknock & Bohernabreena Waterworks that could do with additional parking + proper cafe/toilet facilities. There's no shortage of roads that could be slightly but meaningfully improved accessing all of these too.

It doesn't even make sense as a 'gateway to the Dublin Mountains' given it's location or that Montpelier Hill is the smallest and least interesting walk up the mountains.

To go over the arguments for it:

Parking is bad (but I don't understand what induced demand is or that adding more parking spaces won't help with illegal parking)
I want toilets/cafe (great, so do I! Why does that need a €19million project? Why can't we divvy that €19m up and build several sets?)
It's great that people can learn about the history of the area (The history is fascinating, including being mentioned in several really good local history books - why does it need a €19million project?)
....?

Grassey · 30-06-2020 4:00pm

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/we-havent-been-heard-anger-over-plans-for-hellfire-club-amid-fears-for-beauty-spot-39327254.html

salmocab · 30-06-2020 4:10pm

I like the sound of it, used to use both the HFC and masseys regularly and extra parking, a toilet and somewhere for a cup of tea would get me back regularly

Garzard · 25-07-2020 12:24am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If that were the outcome, that would be fine. The more likely outcome is a full car park and STILL piles of cars parked on the road, endangering all. More parking generally brings more cars.

Must have had my head under a rock the last few years - don't think I've even heard of this plan until recently, and I'm from near the HFC.

But agree 110% on this point. Usually love to see developments like this but you only have to pass through that area on any average weekend and it's a mess, incredibly frustrating having to navigate your way through oncoming traffic in both directions due to convoys of cars dumped along that road and turning it into a single lane for about 200m or more. I'm pretty skeptical of this improving even with the new carparks - this is Ireland, you can guarantee that the new novelty will attract far too much traffic up to the area and won't do any favours for congestion even on the off-chance that the parking capacity itself is met. Instead of admitting defeat at the sight of a packed carpark and finding somewhere else to go for the day, people will continue to dump their cars along that spot.

27-07-2020 2:47pm

The money would be better spent divided up among multiple recreation sites across the mountains. Car park, cafe+toilet at say 5 or 8 sites vs this monument to conceit.

Cruagh, Ticknock, Kilmashogue, Hellfire Club, Tibradden, Glenasmole Valley, Ballyedmonduff - all are close enough a) to each other to act as substitutes so that people shift to the less popular ones & b) to Dublin, to retain year-round traffic for the viability of on-site facilities.

Tabnabs · 28-07-2020 9:56am

Cafe and toilets means a massive undertaking for services to be provided, and likely at great expense. Do we need cafe's on every mountainside in Dublin? I've noticed an increase in disposable coffee cups in locations that have coffee vans our outlets nearby. People have shown clearly, this summer in particular, how ignorant and selfish they are around littering in the countryside.

Better car parking and outsourced parking management and on site security would be my preference. To know you can find a safe place to park and your car will be there on your return would be a much higher priority for me.

ganmo · 28-07-2020 11:03am

I know of one such outlet who's septic tank was been a problem for a long time, not sure if its sorted yet.
From what understand of the coffee side of it is that its intended to be leased to someone for them to run meaning there will be nobody capable of doing anything onsite other than selling coffee

Del.Monte · 28-07-2020 12:12pm

Everything must be sanitised in the countryside, Bord Failte signage, information boards, lighting, seating, and of course an Interpretive Centre with toilets for a bottoms down experience.

29-07-2020 1:23am

Tabnabs wrote: »

Cafe and toilets means a massive undertaking for services to be provided and likely at great expense.

They are? What's your basis for this?

Do we need cafe's on every mountainside in Dublin?

According to people on this thread, cafe's are a human right at rural hiking/beauty spots. In fairness, toilets are needed and other countries (and places around Ireland) don't seem to find it so incredibly onerous or difficult to provide as you suggest.

I've noticed an increase in disposable coffee cups in locations that have coffee vans our outlets nearby. People have shown clearly, this summer in particular, how ignorant and selfish they are around littering in the countryside

Agreed. The advantage of a physical cafe is that they can be required to only offer sit-down service with no disposable cutlery or cups.

Better car parking and outsourced parking management and on site security would be my preference. To know you can find a safe place to park and your car will be there on your return would be a much higher priority for me.

You talk about "great expense" and then talk about outsourcing parking management and on site security? Do you have any idea how many hundreds of thousands that would cost each and every year?!?

A busy carpark that has people coming and going all day is a natural deterrent.

Tabnabs · 29-07-2020 9:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

They are? What's your basis for this?

Speaking with one of the services engineers on the SDCC team who is involved in the current Hellfire Club project.

Deleted User wrote: »

According to people on this thread, cafe's are a human right at rural hiking/beauty spots. In fairness, toilets are needed and other countries (and places around Ireland) don't seem to find it so incredibly onerous or difficult to provide as you suggest.

Having hiked quite a bit in Scandinavia, I have rarely come across public toilets in the mountains, unless they have a accommodation attached. Curious that Irish people suddenly need this "human right" as you put it. Have you done a survey of hillwalkers to confirm this? Suggest EU funding likely available to carry one out.

Deleted User wrote: »

You talk about "great expense" and then talk about outsourcing parking management and on site security? Do you have any idea how many hundreds of thousands that would cost each and every year?!?

A busy carpark that has people coming and going all day is a natural deterrent.

I haven't given the matter the same depth of thought that you clearly have. Hundreds of thousands you say, how many tenders did you receive for the job?

A busy carpark means very little if the glass from smashed windows is anything to go by in various carparks in the Dublin hills. Parking in Wicklow is equally lawless and a significant disincentive to using the upland areas for recreation. That €19m would go along way to giving a safer experience, likely 30 years if we use your figures.

BTW, some of the mountains you referenced are not even in the SDCC area, so DLRCC could cough up too and we could get 40 years of stress free parking.

hmmm · 29-07-2020 11:29pm

In the Alps, it's extremely common to have mountain huts with accomodation & food/coffee on offer. These are the places people hike too, and either stay overnight or use it as a half-way point.

However, the Hellfire is not a mountain - it's a hill on the outskirts of a major city. It's a daytrip destination for people, usually families, and those families are currently having to park on the road because of a lack of parking, and kids are running across a busy road to get from the Hellfire over to Masseys. The current situation is unsustainable, and simply expecting people to stay away from the area was never going to happen.

Where I have a small problem with the development is the idea of a "visitors centre". It needs parking, the walkway to Masseys is good, and a cafe is a nice to have to make it a nice place to visit. Not everything in this country has to be miserable, we can have nice things. There isn't a "cafe on every mountain top in Dublin", if anything we are hugely under-served by recreational facilities in the Dublin & Wicklow mountains.

Del.Monte · 29-07-2020 11:43pm

What recreational facilities does the wild landscape of the Dublin/Wicklow mountains need? People have been accessing the area for hundreds of years without as much as a portaloo.

Grassey · 30-07-2020 9:33am

hmmm wrote: »

Where I have a small problem with the development is the idea of a "visitors centre". It needs parking, the walkway to Masseys is good, and a cafe is a nice to have to make it a nice place to visit.

Some of the plans are good - a path down Gunny Hill to link to the estates on old court road and marked cyclelanes and traffic calming measures to remove reliance on 'having' to drive up as it's not safe to walk/cycle at the moment. [and remove the ability to illegally park on the road]

A pedestrian crossing at the redesigned entrance to Masseys would serve the same purpose of the skybridge though.

There are already 2 cafe's there, is a third at the carpark required? Really?
I agree that the visitor centre is OTT.

hmmm · 30-07-2020 9:40am

Del.Monte wrote: »

What recreational facilities does the wild landscape of the Dublin/Wicklow mountains need? People have been accessing the area for hundreds of years without as much as a portaloo.

To bring us in line with European norms it needs marked routes/paths, and safe access to those paths at particular points (e.g. a bridge over the river at Glenmacnass car park). For too long the mountains have been accessible only to the hard-core, when there should be a reasonable balance between wildness/environment/recreation. Car-parking facilities is also a huge problem, but this doesn't necessarily mean car-parks in the mountains - it might mean car-parks in places like Roundwood where the pubs and shops would love the business, with safe off-road hiking routes leading into the mountains.

ganmo · 30-07-2020 10:58am

Grassey wrote: »

Some of the plans are good - a path down Gunny Hill to link to the estates on old court road and marked cyclelanes and traffic calming measures to remove reliance on 'having' to drive up as it's not safe to walk/cycle at the moment. [and remove the ability to illegally park on the road]

A pedestrian crossing at the redesigned entrance to Masseys would serve the same purpose of the skybridge though.

There are already 2 cafe's there, is a third at the carpark required? Really?
I agree that the visitor centre is OTT.

They're not going to widen the road, so the footpaths and cycle lane are going to be on the existing road footprint.

Grassey · 30-07-2020 11:14am

Some widening...

provision of minimum 1.5m footpath, and advisory 1.5m cyclelane... retention of 2-way traffic except at one location where a single lane traffic shuttle is proposed. The proposed modifications ... do require localised widening of the R115 by 1.2m at the hellfire for 100m

ganmo · 30-07-2020 11:26am

Grassey wrote: »

Some widening...

100m of widening over 4k of required distance to hook up to the nearest footpath.
And still narrowing the road enough that wont let 2 cars pass

Grassey · 30-07-2020 12:03pm

I never said (originally) they were going to widen the road, the plans seem quite clear that its:
* 100m widening outside hellfire
* provision of 1.5m path on existing roadspace and narrow it for cars but allow 2 way traffic
* 1 section that is too narrow to allow 2 way cars to have a single lane shared by both directions for a short distance [it doesn't state, but presumably 1 direction will have priority if good sight lines, or signal etc to allow for bi-directional travel]

Garzard · 30-07-2020 8:45pm

hmmm wrote: »

It's a daytrip destination for people, usually families, and those families are currently having to park on the road because of a lack of parking, and kids are running across a busy road to get from the Hellfire over to Masseys. The current situation is unsustainable, and simply expecting people to stay away from the area was never going to happen.

Just on this point - whenever I drive out to a scenic spot and find the carpark packed, I simply switch to Plan B and head somewhere else. I'd never in a million years just dump the car on the road like what you always see up at the HFC. Don't get why many people can't do the same.

Hopefully that'll be rendered impossible with the changes to the road etc that Grassey posted earlier, and hopefully there'll be enough parking spaces. It all looks and sounds great as a development, but I'm convinced the net result will be a cobra effect of horrendous traffic jams during good (and snowy) weather which are already bad enough on weekends with everyone trying to get up the area. See the photo below and that was only during a bit of snow we had one weekend a couple years ago.

If this is how it turns out, I'll definitely be avoiding the area by heading up the mountains through Rockbrook or something.

AndrewJRenko · 30-07-2020 9:30pm

Garzard wrote: »

Just on this point - whenever I drive out to a scenic spot and find the carpark packed, I simply switch to Plan B and head somewhere else. I'd never in a million years just dump the car on the road like what you always see up at the HFC. Don't get why many people can't do the same.

Hopefully that'll be rendered impossible with the changes to the road etc that Grassey posted earlier, and hopefully there'll be enough parking spaces.

There's never enough parking spaces. The more parking spaces you provide, the more people will drive there. It is a vicious cycle.

hmmm · 30-07-2020 10:45pm

Garzard wrote: »

Just on this point - whenever I drive out to a scenic spot and find the carpark packed, I simply switch to Plan B and head somewhere else. I'd never in a million years just dump the car on the road like what you always see up at the HFC. Don't get why many people can't do the same.

That's all very well for someone who knows the mountains, but someone who has heard of the "Hellfire club" and goes to visit for the first time isn't likely to know where else they can go. Besides which, there are little in the way of signposts or information signs telling them what else is in the area.

The more parking spaces you provide, the more people will drive there.

If we took that attitude for everything we'd have nothing in this country. It's not an unusual request to provide facilities at a popular spot, and it's particularly untenable having families walking along a busy road to reach it. Whatever about the cars, I'd personally be more worried about the almost silent racing bikes coming down the hill at that stretch.

Garzard · 31-07-2020 12:07am

hmmm wrote: »

That's all very well for someone who knows the mountains, but someone who has heard of the "Hellfire club" and goes to visit for the first time isn't likely to know where else they can go. Besides which, there are little in the way of signposts or information signs telling them what else is in the area.

Wouldn't disagree with that, but just before Christmas I got completely lost in Cavan looking for a certain B&B near Bailieborough I'd booked with friends, was driving in pitch black, in the thickest fog I'd ever seen and in unlit, narrow rural roads with just myself in the car so I was fairly on edge. A few quick 30sec checks of Google Maps however helped me regain my bearings. Not strictly relevant but almost everyone these days has access to a SatNav or Google Maps in the car to update them on traffic conditions etc.

There's a few other parking areas reasonably nearby the HFC that don't involve leaving cars on the side of the road. I just don't see any excuse for it to be honest - it obstructs an entire lane and causes huge inconvenience and danger to cyclists and motorists alike. If parking can't be found in one spot, there's plenty of other scenic areas they could alternatively go to. Leaving cars there boils down to poor planning and laziness above anything else IMO on the part of those visitors.

AndrewJRenko · 31-07-2020 11:35am

hmmm wrote: »

If we took that attitude for everything we'd have nothing in this country. It's not an unusual request to provide facilities at a popular spot, and it's particularly untenable having families walking along a busy road to reach it. Whatever about the cars, I'd personally be more worried about the almost silent racing bikes coming down the hill at that stretch.

I didn't say anything about what level of parking should or shouldn't be provided. I'm just pointing out that this 'nirvana' of enough parking is rarely achieved, anywhere. The more parking you provide, the more cars arrive.

I hope that whatever parking is provided is paid parking, so they don't subsidise car owners over those who choose other methods.

salmocab · 31-07-2020 11:47am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I didn't say anything about what level of parking should or shouldn't be provided. I'm just pointing out that this 'nirvana' of enough parking is rarely achieved, anywhere. The more parking you provide, the more cars arrive.

I hope that whatever parking is provided is paid parking, so they don't subsidise car owners over those who choose other methods.

Not quite the same but Marley park closed one car park and extended another a few years back and as they properly lined the spaces, there is now always space available where in the past people would park on the grass as without lines they parked too far apart and used up more space. Now with about the same amount of parking space there is always free spaces.

Grassey · 31-07-2020 11:54am

Not on a Saturday morning, still cars abandoned everywhere there is an inch of space at the 'main entrance', because the empty extended car park is a bit far.... can't be walking <100m to the grounds, it'd ruin the experience of the Market....

salmocab · 31-07-2020 11:58am

Grassey wrote: »

Not on a Saturday morning, still cars abandoned everywhere there is an inch of space at the 'main entrance', because the empty extended car park is a bit far.... can't be walking <100m to the grounds, it'd ruin the experience of the Market....

Is Saturday morning not packed because of the run each week? But yeah there are generally spots up back even then.

AndrewJRenko · 31-07-2020 12:00pm

salmocab wrote: »

Not quite the same but Marley park closed one car park and extended another a few years back and as they properly lined the spaces, there is now always space available where in the past people would park on the grass as without lines they parked too far apart and used up more space. Now with about the same amount of parking space there is always free spaces.

And yet, you'll still find people parked illegally in the main car park (beside the House), or on the grass verges outside BSJ, because they can't be bothered finding a proper space.

salmocab · 31-07-2020 12:02pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And yet, you'll still find people parked illegally in the main car park (beside the House), or on the grass verges outside BSJ, because they can't be bothered finding a proper space.

Yeah definitely it’s infuriating but the back car park always has space.

Grassey · 31-07-2020 12:05pm

Space which is available... Yet people still insist on parking as close as possible even if it means up on the footpath, the hatching, grass etc for the sake of 'saving' a 30 seconds walk

hmmm · 31-07-2020 1:00pm

Garzard wrote: »

There's a few other parking areas reasonably nearby the HFC that don't involve leaving cars on the side of the road. I just don't see any excuse for it to be honest - it obstructs an entire lane and causes huge inconvenience and danger to cyclists and motorists alike. If parking can't be found in one spot, there's plenty of other scenic areas they could alternatively go to. Leaving cars there boils down to poor planning and laziness above anything else IMO on the part of those visitors.

It's become accepted to park on the road by Masseys, "everyone" does it. There's also a concern about car theft in the official carpark. I know a few hikers who do it because the carpark closing times meant they risk getting locked in, I'm not sure if that has changed.

This was a nuisance level for a long time, but in recent months because of Covid it has become a bit of a disaster-zone for parking. Masseys and the Hellfire will only become more popular for families as doing outdoor stuff has become so much more popular.

Garzard · 31-07-2020 10:30pm

hmmm wrote: »

It's become accepted to park on the road by Masseys, "everyone" does it. There's also a concern about car theft in the official carpark. I know a few hikers who do it because the carpark closing times meant they risk getting locked in, I'm not sure if that has changed.

This was a nuisance level for a long time, but in recent months because of Covid it has become a bit of a disaster-zone for parking. Masseys and the Hellfire will only become more popular for families as doing outdoor stuff has become so much more popular.

Surprised to hear this. Always thought car break-ins / theft were mainly limited to further up e.g. Sally Gap and Glendalough which are much more isolated and with owners likely to be gone for the best part of the day off hiking and the like, areas like that would be the main target for chancers? Although I'm not quite sure what difference it makes using the HFC carpark or parking outside the entrace, against determined scum. Personally, if I found myself parking outside, I'd be much more concerned about damage to my car from passing traffic, cyclists etc.

I've always wondered why the Council (or Coilte?) have never attempted to obstruct that spot in such a way as to prevent parking there but also leaving both lanes completely free for traffic. What about fines even? Surely they must have received endless complaints about it.

proposed €19m tourist development of the HellFire Club

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