proposed €19m tourist development of the HellFire Club

....... · 10-08-2017 12:02pm

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salmocab · 10-08-2017 12:14pm

....... wrote: »

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Out of interest I googled that site and all the news albeit a few years back about development all mention DLR as the local authority.

The rest of your post has nothing to with me.

....... · 10-08-2017 12:18pm

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AndrewJRenko · 10-08-2017 12:21pm

....... wrote: »

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Nope, it is DLR area. DLR looks after Marlay, all of Blackglen Road and Harold's Grange Road.

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Why does every bit of tax payer's money have to go to the "housing crisis"?

This is an attraction for tax payer's to bring their kids to or enjoy it themselves.

Don't tax payer's deserve something in return too?

Everyone pays tax, including homeless people. Every time they buy a can of beer or a sandwich they pay tax. The middle classes don't have a monopoly on paying tax.

ted1 wrote: »

Budgets allocate funding over different areas, you can pump 100% of the budget into housing , that's just daft and totally unfair to tax payers. The homeless get enough of a % off-the-budget.

So change the allocation? A budget allocation is a policy decision, and policies can be changed. They aren't engraved in stone. BTW, what % do the homeless currently get?

Tabnabs wrote: »

Because SDCC has amassed a large budget to develop a "tourism" product and has extremely limited opportunities to exploit develop the tourism potential of their demesne.

Public bodies can't amass budgets. They run on annual allocations from central Goverment. If they can't spend the money well, they can hand it back where a good use will be found for it. This isn't a good reason for a project like this.

Tabnabs · 10-08-2017 12:33pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Public bodies can't amass budgets. They run on annual allocations from central Goverment. If they can't spend the money well, they can hand it back where a good use will be found for it. This isn't a good reason for a project like this.

How does the like of DLRCoCo (for example) have €150m in 'Bank Investments' listed in their audited accounts for 2016 then? Surely their obliged to hand this handsome surplus back as you suggest?

AndrewJRenko · 10-08-2017 12:40pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

How does the like of DLRCoCo (for example) have €150m in 'Bank Investments' listed in their audited accounts for 2016 then? Surely their obliged to hand this handsome surplus back as you suggest?

Ask them if you're interested. It could well be related to the DLR Properties Ltd; http://www.dlrp.ie/

Tabnabs · 10-08-2017 12:54pm

Could be, but then SDCC themselves have €85 million squirrelled away. Plenty of cash in the local authority gig.

AndrewJRenko · 10-08-2017 12:57pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

Could be, but then SDCC themselves have €85 million squirrelled away. Plenty of cash in the local authority gig.

Cash in the bank doesn't mean cash squirrelled away. When you have a large budget, you will have large amounts of cash in the bank at any one time.

ted1 · 10-08-2017 1:28pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Tabnabs wrote: »

How does the like of DLRCoCo (for example) have €150m in 'Bank Investments' listed in their audited accounts for 2016 then? Surely their obliged to hand this handsome surplus back as you suggest?

Ask them if you're interested. It could well be related to the DLR Properties Ltd; http://www.dlrp.ie/

80% of the LPT goes to the council, that's why some councils are cash rich compared to others.

salmocab · 10-08-2017 1:53pm

ted1 wrote: »

80% of the LPT goes to the council, that's why some councils are cash rich compared to others.

Was that not just the plan but never actually happened as only 5 councils would have enough to fund themselves so govt just kept the lot and allocated it out as they see fit?

Tabnabs · 11-02-2019 5:16pm

The plan is on hold over a bird that the experts say won't be affected by the development. Only in Ireland...

It was great fun sitting in the traffic jam for 15 minutes on the Old Military Road yesterday, because of all the people who had to park on the road due to the Hellfire car park being oversubscribed. An issue the emergency services have flagged several times too.

The proposed €19m redevelopment of Dublin's Hellfire Club is being held up for another year because of its potential effects on the Merlin bird of prey.

South Dublin County Council wanted to build a visitor centre and other facilities at the popular tourist and daytripper spot in the Dublin Mountains near Rathfarnham.

The application to An Bord Pleanála provoked a large number of objections from local farmers, hillwalkers and conservationists and an oral heading was held last November.

The board has now written to the council saying that its bird survey was inadequate in relation to the Merlin bird, as it was limited to the summer months of 2018.

The decision has been condemned by the Irish Raptor Study Group who say they advised both sides that the development would not affect Merlins.

Spokesperson Ryan Wilson Parr said the decision was "disappointing" as his group had said they had no issues with the plan.

A statement on their Facebook page said that birds of prey have been subjected to "unnecessary negative stigma" by this decision.

"Unfortunately and without foundation the Merlin has been used as a focus for objection and it has stuck".

It added that An Bord Pleanála had allowed a wind farm on an important breeding ground for hen harriers but refused the Hellfire development because of potential effects".

"The double standards here... is something that should concern our TDs, developers consultants and public alike."

The council has been given until February 2020 to submit further information that would cover all seasons.

The council has also been told to prepare a Natura Impact Statement on the effects of increased visitor numbers on three nearby areas of conservation and protection.

In its submission to the board, South Dublin County Council said the development was necessary because of population growth.

The council wants to build a visitor centre with bigger car parks and a treetop walk, and to more than triple current visitor numbers to 300,000 a year.

The project would include works to preserve a number of national monuments on the site.

Architect Paul Keogh told the oral hearing that the plan was to do "as much as necessary and as little as possible".

But the Save The Hellfire group, who say they have a petition signed by 20,000 people opposing the developments, say it is inappropriate and will have a negative impact on an already fragile environment.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/0211/1028821-hell-fire-club/

Grassey · 11-02-2019 6:16pm

Ticketing & towing illegally parked cars would solve that far quicker than sticking in a coffee shop.

Synode · 11-02-2019 6:21pm

Grassey wrote: »

Ticketing & towing illegally parked cars would solve that far quicker than sticking in a coffee shop.

It should be solved properly. Ticketing and/or towing will not do that

hmmm · 11-02-2019 8:43pm

Grassey wrote: »

Ticketing & towing illegally parked cars would solve that far quicker than sticking in a coffee shop.

Or we could provide safe parking for families who want to take their kids for a walk in the foothills, instead of sitting in a pub stuffing their faces.

People can be awful miserable killjoys in this country.

Grassey · 11-02-2019 8:47pm

How would it not properly solve illegal parking? It's a solid white line. Don't park opposite it. Simple.

If the carpark is full, move on to one of the other many walks in the area, there are a fair few.

If the supermarket car park was full you'd hardly just lamp the car out on the road blocking traffic while you pop in.

Del.Monte · 11-02-2019 8:58pm

hmmm wrote: »

Or we could provide safe parking for families who want to take their kids for a walk in the foothills, instead of sitting in a pub stuffing their faces.

People can be awful miserable killjoys in this country.

I know, we should build centres and carparks in every beauty spot that we can locate in the country. I heard someone on the radio tonight calling for a dual carriageway to the Cliffs of Moher. Only in Ireland. :rolleyes:

hmmm · 11-02-2019 9:05pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I know, we should build centres and carparks in every beauty spot that we can locate in the country. I heard someone on the radio tonight calling for a dual carriageway to the Cliffs of Moher. Only in Ireland. :rolleyes:

The objectors don't want cars, they don't want buses, they don't want a cable car, they don't want anything. I've talked to people objecting to this who haven't been up there in years. Miserable, miserable people with no care for society other than their own miserable life of being miserable old windbags - and they need to be called out on this rather than being indulged.

We need to open these places up, provide good access and encourage people into the hills and the outdoors - particularly kids.

Grassey · 11-02-2019 9:12pm

Here now, you can't paint all objectors with that brush.

Purchasing some of the Orlagh estate to develop a large car park and then have a drop off bus / cable car /segways/ extended walk up via cartys Castle /whatever - all would have been a far better proposals than doubling the existing carpark and throwing in a centre ruining over the 1st km of the current walk.

The place has good access, is open and accessible. Parking has a capacity though. Like most attractions. Plenty of bike racks up there though.

AndrewJRenko · 11-02-2019 9:17pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

It was great fun sitting in the traffic jam for 15 minutes on the Old Military Road yesterday, because of all the people who had to park on the road due to the Hellfire car park being oversubscribed. An issue the emergency services have flagged several times too.

No-one HAS to park on the road. Selfish people CHOOSE to park on the road and endanger people instead of moving off and finding another place/time to park safely and legally.

There isn't enough space on the planet to provide parking for all those who refuse to consider other forms of transportation.

hmmm · 11-02-2019 9:17pm

Grassey wrote: »

The place has good access, is open and accessible. Parking has a capacity though. Like most attractions. Plenty of bike racks up there though.

And that capacity is completely overloaded with families and kids running around the road. I wouldn't cycle with my kids along that road in a million years.

hmmm · 11-02-2019 9:18pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There isn't enough space on the planet to provide parking for all those who refuse to consider other forms of transportation.

What alternative transportation is this?

ganmo · 11-02-2019 9:39pm

hmmm wrote: »

The objectors don't want cars, they don't want buses, they don't want a cable car, they don't want anything. I've talked to people objecting to this who haven't been up there in years. Miserable, miserable people with no care for society other than their own miserable life of being miserable old windbags - and they need to be called out on this rather than being indulged.

We need to open these places up, provide good access and encourage people into the hills and the outdoors - particularly kids.

Particularly dogs for me

Now other than the social aspects they were going to have to drill a well, some kind of sewage treatment works, narrow up the road so much that it would be a single lane at one point

Ya it made total since

AndrewJRenko · 11-02-2019 10:00pm

hmmm wrote: »

What alternative transportation is this?

Ever heard of cycling?

hmmm · 11-02-2019 10:51pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Ever heard of cycling?

That road is not suitable for bringing kids cycling along. Too narrow, too many blind turns, too steep.

AndrewJRenko · 11-02-2019 11:00pm

hmmm wrote: »

That road is not suitable for bringing kids cycling along. Too narrow, too many blind turns, too steep.

Hundreds, if not thousands of cyclists cycle that road every weekend without incident. There's no problem with the road.

There might be a problem with some of the idiot drivers around, but that's a very different problem.

hmmm · 12-02-2019 8:56am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Hundreds, if not thousands of cyclists cycle that road every weekend without incident. There's no problem with the road.

There might be a problem with some of the idiot drivers around, but that's a very different problem.

You can put your kids at risk all you want, most people wouldn't. We could build a segregated bike path, but there would probably be objections to that too.

listermint · 12-02-2019 8:59am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Hundreds, if not thousands of cyclists cycle that road every weekend without incident. There's no problem with the road.

There might be a problem with some of the idiot drivers around, but that's a very different problem.

I'm one of them.

And to advocate bringing kids up that route is as actually frightening. Is this a serious suggestion? Do you have kids ? Do you really cycle that route because you write as if you don't know what it's like.

Even for an experienced cyclist that route is very dangerous.

wowy · 12-02-2019 9:27am

listermint wrote: »

I'm one of them.

And to advocate bringing kids up that route is as actually frightening. Is this a serious suggestion? Do you have kids ? Do you really cycle that route because you write as if you don't know what it's like.

Even for an experienced cyclist that route is very dangerous.

Whatever about getting up there, coming back down is a dangerous and technical descent for experienced adult cyclists, let alone children.

seamus · 12-02-2019 9:33am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No-one HAS to park on the road. Selfish people CHOOSE to park on the road and endanger people instead of moving off and finding another place/time to park safely and legally.

|It's a nice mission statement Andrew, but it's not reality.

There are questions about whether parking fines actually work to cut down illegal parking. On a microcosm scale they do, but the vehicles just move somewhere else. And where there is no "else" to move, people take the risk.

Like you say, the aim should be getting people to not use their cars at all. But parking fines don't do that.

If there were no vehicles parked on the road and all in a car park, then it would be a safer route for cycling, and rather oddly by provided more car parking, you may get more cycling.

listermint wrote: »

And to advocate bringing kids up that route is as actually frightening. Is this a serious suggestion? Do you have kids ? Do you really cycle that route because you write as if you don't know what it's like.

Depends on the age. If they're over 8 and used to cycling on the road, they'll be grand. It's really not dangerous at all.

13-02-2019 4:53am

We cycled up to Hellfire Club/Masseys as kids under 10. Even walked up a couple of times. In transition year, we were brought out as a class on our bikes up the gunny road and onto stocking lane.

And as others have said, the road is littered with recreational cyclists on weekends or on a bright evening.

It remains emblematic of the short-sighted, myopic and downright stupid thinking that is par for the course with SDCC that they let Orlagh House + lands be sold for a pittance while dreaming up a white elephant of a plan to destroy the character of the Hellfire Club.

A historic house & large grounds literally on the foothills of Dublin Mountains, within a few hundred metres of the Dublin Mountain Way and that literally fronts onto a recently upgraded road (with cycle tracks) leading to the M50. Sounds perfect for a visitor centre, car park and recreational facilities without taking away any local character.

But nope, that would have been stupid.

Synode · 13-02-2019 10:23am

Deleted User wrote: »

We cycled up to Hellfire Club/Masseys as kids under 10. Even walked up a couple of times. In transition year, we were brought out as a class on our bikes up the gunny road and onto stocking lane.

And as others have said, the road is littered with recreational cyclists on weekends or on a bright evening.

It remains emblematic of the short-sighted, myopic and downright stupid thinking that is par for the course with SDCC that they let Orlagh House + lands be sold for a pittance while dreaming up a white elephant of a plan to destroy the character of the Hellfire Club.

A historic house & large grounds literally on the foothills of Dublin Mountains, within a few hundred metres of the Dublin Mountain Way and that literally fronts onto a recently upgraded road (with cycle tracks) leading to the M50. Sounds perfect for a visitor centre, car park and recreational facilities without taking away any local character.

But nope, that would have been stupid.

Orlagh house doesn't front on to a road with cycle lanes. The piss poor attempt at a cycle lane only begins at Abbots Grove.

Anyone who thinks those roads are safe to bring kids cycling on needs their head examined.

ganmo · 13-02-2019 3:35pm

Synode wrote: »

Orlagh house doesn't front on to a road with cycle lanes. The piss poor attempt at a cycle lane only begins at Abbots Grove.

Anyone who thinks those roads are safe to bring kids cycling on needs their head examined.

work on 200 yards of a wide road (compared to the one up to the hellfire) would bring you to bus lanes etc

13-02-2019 5:17pm

Synode wrote: »

Orlagh house doesn't front on to a road with cycle lanes. The piss poor attempt at a cycle lane only begins at Abbots Grove.

Anyone who thinks those roads are safe to bring kids cycling on needs their head examined.

You're correct, my apologies. I'd forgotten that!

Entrance to Orlagh House is 220m* from cycle lanes, with plenty of space to extend them to the house itself.

Hellfire Club is 2km away, on roads that simply cannot have additional capacity (whether pedestrian or bicycle) added.

Can you provide any articles about any bicycling accidents on the military road/stocking lane? Can be about adults, nevermind kids. I've lived (and cycled and drove) in the area for the majority of my life and have never seen nor heard of any. The two recent bicycling deaths were in suburban Whitechurch and Butterfield.

On a nice day there are hundreds of cyclists going up the r113/r116, if it's that dangerous there has to be some evidence out there.

AndrewJRenko · 13-02-2019 11:26pm

seamus wrote: »

If there were no vehicles parked on the road and all in a car park, then it would be a safer route for cycling, and rather oddly by provided more car parking, you may get more cycling.

If that were the outcome, that would be fine. The more likely outcome is a full car park and STILL piles of cars parked on the road, endangering all. More parking generally brings more cars.

Synode · 14-02-2019 1:02am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're correct, my apologies. I'd forgotten that!

Entrance to Orlagh House is 220m* from cycle lanes, with plenty of space to extend them to the house itself.

Hellfire Club is 2km away, on roads that simply cannot have additional capacity (whether pedestrian or bicycle) added.

Can you provide any articles about any bicycling accidents on the military road/stocking lane? Can be about adults, nevermind kids. I've lived (and cycled and drove) in the area for the majority of my life and have never seen nor heard of any. The two recent bicycling deaths were in suburban Whitechurch and Butterfield.

On a nice day there are hundreds of cyclists going up the r113/r116, if it's that dangerous there has to be some evidence out there.

There's a memorial to a pedestrian that was killed about half way up gunney hill. The amount of joy riders and people generally driving far too fast up that road is scary.

A couple of years ago I heard a smash from my garden and went out to find a motorbike that came around the corner too fast, on the wrong side of the road and smashed into a jeep. The roads are dangerous (a lot of bends, steep hilled, dark) and some of the drivers on them more so. There's no chance I'd bring my kids up there until they were in their teens and strong, confident cyclists

....... · 14-02-2019 10:23am

Synode wrote: »

There's a memorial to a pedestrian that was killed about half way up gunney hill.

Is that not a traveller roadside memorial to a kid killed when he crashed the car he was joyriding at night?

Grassey · 14-02-2019 3:09pm

Synode wrote: »

The amount of joy riders and people generally driving far too fast up that road is scary.

Could close the road from Orlagh to Stocking Lane. as there is no access along the road bar woodstown cemetery before the stables.

Rat run for cars closed off, safe walking, cycling, horse route from Old Court up to R113 then. And then puts you less than 1 km from the Hellfire. CPO some land on the south side to put in a path etc. Job done. Problem solved.

ganmo · 14-02-2019 3:16pm

Grassey wrote: »

Could close the road from Orlagh to Stocking Lane. as there is no access along the road bar woodstown cemetery before the stables.

Rat run for cars closed off, safe walking, cycling, horse route from Old Court up to R113 then. And then puts you less than 1 km from the Hellfire. CPO some land on the south side to put in a path etc. Job done. Problem solved.

why do you think CPOs weren't explored when they dreamt up the plan?

Grassey · 14-02-2019 4:05pm

Because it's easier to tear up half a wood and tar it than take 1.5m of space from alongside a road to put in a path?

DrumSteve · 14-02-2019 4:13pm

I would never ever walk up there; also, if people don't park there along the side of the road if the car park is full where would they park if they wanted to go to the hellfire club?

It's the same as tibradden, there is not enough capacity for cars but there is no other safe way to get there.

AndrewJRenko · 14-02-2019 5:09pm

DrumSteve wrote: »

I would never ever walk up there; also, if people don't park there along the side of the road if the car park is full where would they park if they wanted to go to the hellfire club?

Somewhere safe and legal - why is it someone else's responsibility to provide storage space for private property?

DrumSteve · 14-02-2019 5:44pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Somewhere safe and legal - why is it someone else's responsibility to provide storage space for private property?

Good shout but I see you left out the second part of my post. There are no paths on the roads outside the hellfire car park so how do they get there safely?

Tabnabs · 15-02-2019 10:51am

No safe access for Massey's Wood from Military Road either, an issue that the proposed development would neatly address.

ganmo · 15-02-2019 11:12am

DrumSteve wrote: »

I would never ever walk up there; also, if people don't park there along the side of the road if the car park is full where would they park if they wanted to go to the hellfire club?

It's the same as tibradden, there is not enough capacity for cars but there is no other safe way to get there.

bus to rockbrook and then up mutton lane, walk in single file and you'll be grand

AndrewJRenko · 16-02-2019 3:12pm

DrumSteve wrote: »

Good shout but I see you left out the second part of my post. There are no paths on the roads outside the hellfire car park so how do they get there safely?

Taxi? Lifts from family or friends? Loads of options.

hmmm · 16-02-2019 9:54pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Taxi? Lifts from family or friends? Loads of options.

Maybe hot air balloon, or they could share a donkey with the other families in their local area?

Let's get the facilities in place to encourage our kids out into the open air in the natural playground we have on our doorstep, and less of the spurious objections. If we expect families to risk their lives getting to and from the mountains, they'll (rightly) stay in the pubs and shopping centres on the weekend.

Grassey · 16-02-2019 10:00pm

Should probably stick a multi story car park in then to make sure anyone who wants to visit can fit, and make it free parking otherwise nobody will pay to enter because you know, public ownership etc.

Synode · 17-02-2019 9:23pm

....... wrote: »

Is that not a traveller roadside memorial to a kid killed when he crashed the car he was joyriding at night?

Is it? I was told years ago it was a pedestrian that was killed

Odelay · 17-02-2019 9:35pm

€19 million??? €19,000,000!! On a tourist spot?? What are they going to do with the money? Is it Disney land they’re building?

AndrewJRenko · 17-02-2019 10:17pm

hmmm wrote: »

Maybe hot air balloon, or they could share a donkey with the other families in their local area?

Let's get the facilities in place to encourage our kids out into the open air in the natural playground we have on our doorstep, and less of the spurious objections. If we expect families to risk their lives getting to and from the mountains, they'll (rightly) stay in the pubs and shopping centres on the weekend.

Sure maybe we'll need an escalator to get them up to the ruin? And a new roof over it too, to keep them dry.

Because we have to encourage blah blah blah.

More parking means more cars. We're going to end up with bigger full car parks AND still lines of cars parked on the road, endangering cyclists and walkers.

proposed €19m tourist development of the HellFire Club

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