RAF QRA Launch!

Markcheese wrote: »

Cool, 80 to 100 million p/a for the jets ... Add in a few Bob to get jet trainers , do you need hardened hangers ? ,Fuel would be relatively small ...
Now we start to hit the big cost ... Staff... 3 crews per plane ? Each Being 1 pilot , 1 technician and 5(?) More ,
And that's not even the maintenance crowd ... Then the hierarchy above them , and the trainers ,stores and logistics ,
So maybe 1 and half to double the size of the aer corp... And a lot more highly trained / expensive ,difficult to hold onto staff ...

Now ,what this air Force actually for ? Defending the state ? From who ? ( Because who we're defending ourselves from kinda defines the numbers of planes and their type ) ,
Does having 12 or 24 or whatever planes make the state safer ,or does it make it a target ..

Now if Ireland decides it no longer wants to be neutral ,and get involved in European defence or. Nato ,then that's different again ....

Yes all correct as regards manpower, I don't believe we need hardened hangars, but we do need air stations beyond Baldonnell, closer to the Atlantic, I would put a flight of two QRA in both Kerry and Sligo Airports, with associated facilities for fuelling, basic maintenance and crew accommodation.

I agree too about the manpower issue, but I believe the attraction of fast jets dovetailed with a mandatory 5 or 7 years post attestation service would more than cover it. I would think you are looking at perhaps 40 pilot officers and 50 or 60 ground technicians covering minimum 9 of 12 aircraft operational at one time. An element of that would already be in service.

Would a jet capability make the State a target? I don't see why it would. From whom would be defending the air land and sea territory? Clearly the Russian military who have taken an aggressive stance in Western European territory and seek to operate their heavy warplanes with impunity. I don't advocate NATO membership right now and that is precisely why I contend we need an independent air defence capability, as the current arrangement heavily dilutes our military non-alignment. Operation of jets would also allow us to cooperate with our neutral and PfP colleagues in training and peace enforcement, including providing combat air cover for our own peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations in Mali, for example.

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yes all correct as regards manpower, I don't believe we need hardened hangars, but we do need air stations beyond Baldonnell, closer to the Atlantic, I would put a flight of two QRA in both Kerry and Sligo Airports, with associated facilities for fuelling, basic maintenance and crew accommodation.

I agree too about the manpower issue, but I believe the attraction of fast jets dovetailed with a mandatory 5 or 7 years post attestation service would more than cover it. I would think you are looking at perhaps 40 pilot officers and 50 or 60 ground technicians covering minimum 9 of 12 aircraft operational at one time. An element of that would already be in service.

Would a jet capability make the State a target? I don't see why it would. From whom would be defending the air land and sea territory? Clearly the Russian military who have taken an aggressive stance in Western European territory and seek to operate their heavy warplanes with impunity. I don't advocate NATO membership right now and that is precisely why I contend we need an independent air defence capability, as the current arrangement heavily dilutes our military non-alignment. Operation of jets would also allow us to cooperate with our neutral and PfP colleagues in training and peace enforcement, including providing combat air cover for our own peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations in Mali, for example.

Wow, combat air cover in West Africa .... So how many more planes and crews over the 9 to 12 mythical grippens are you thinking ...

But ... Does Ireland ( currently ) have an interest in long-range bombers or submarine and anti submarine war fare ...
As in the start of world war 2, we were in a strategically important location .... To the Germans and the British .. but as it wasn't a conflict of ours ,.. we didn't get involved ..
If we'd aided either Germans or the allies how long would it have been before Ireland had been bombed ...

I'd be concerned about Knock's isolated location, and elevated site, can get foggy, snowy, windy.

It probably wouldn't matter exactly where, I just picked Kerry and Sligo to maximise the coverage and minimise the distance to open ocean in case of supersonic interception.

Psychlops wrote: »

We did aid the allies, who gave you history lessons?

Did we ? Do tell ..., We had a very lax internment system ( for both sides) ,we didn't offer our ports to either side ...
We played it to our advantage ,(maybe not economically ) , anyway back to modern times ..

How much would baldonnal be worth ? For property development ? It's not far from some decent transport links ...
Flog it ... Relocate the aer corp to Shannon ( which has air traffic control and fire service 24/ 7 ,plus a decent runway that the government kinda have to subsidise anyway .., ( keep a helicopter base and offices in baldonnal but relocate everything else down to Shannon ... Feic it ,build a few decent appartment complexes for the aer corp ,at subsidised rents for serving members ..
And invest the proceeds in upgrading the aer corp ...although I've no idea how far you'd get ... pc21s ?Lead in jets ? A decent apprentice ship and training programme for technicians and pilots , and the ability to retire or buy out early leaving room for others to train on and up ...
( Doubt there'd be enough money ,or will enough to start funding supersonic jets though )

I'd say the setup costs, for 16 jets plus purpose built hangars, at least one extra air station, weapons purchase and storage, aprons and fuel infrastructure, training suites, barracks, IT and Comms and most importantly a national military radar would be more like 2-2.5 billion.

Annual running costs, including payroll of 40-50 additional pilots, 50-80 more techs, maintenence, fuel and weapons consumables, upgrades, constant training would be between 200 and 300 million, an increase of about one third to the Defence budget.

I'd still be doing it.

Psychlops wrote: »

Its not Aer Corp, FFS get it right its Air Corps. Why do so many posters here need to get checked on this? Its bad enough its written on alot of the Aircraft they operate.

Fair enough ..

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Not to mention allowing RAF pilots to return to the UK but interning the Luftwaffe pilots.

Not to mention the crew, dressed in Irish uniform, who were collecting one of our MTBs, thinking that it was a good idea to head on over to Dunkirk and lift English and French soldiers off the beaches.

Leonidas BL wrote: »

FA50 is only a fart of a thing. We should get some Eurofighters and share patrol duties with the UK.

Austria would like a word with you.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You are being unnecessarily aggressive.
Why do the RAF or any other country bother with intercepts, then? if having a radar is adequate.

They have historically maintained vast fleets of fighters, bombers and now fighter bombers for war, which are also capable of intercepting these Russian stunts. It is an opportunity to train and for them to test there own readiness generally, given that a scenario in which Britain has to fight another aerial war above in its own skys is unlikely in the extreme.

The intercepting aircraft squawk so they can be seen on secondary radar / TCAS, it's been many decades since primary radar alone was thought adequate for safe conduct of civil aviation.

It can't be inadequate if the same technology manages to successfully detect these Russian aircraft in the first place.

An ideal situation would be a network of radars maintained by the IAA and monitored by their controllers, allowing them to identify anything in the most sensitive and congested parts of our controlled airspace without the need to involve another layer i.e. the AC/Defence Forces at large, as they can barely field controllers at Baldonnel at present.

These Russian aircraft suddenly become no threat at all once commercial aircraft can be made aware of their presence and redirected to continue on their merry way.