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Third Irish forestry fund.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    Money :) Managed commercial forestry is not environmentally sound bar some carbon sequestration - the forests themselves are monoculture, with almost no eco diversity under that dark canopy and the side effect of adding acid to the soil, watercourses.

    Would agree with you there, I had thought of investing in native hardwoods.
    Pine forests are nice for us and maybe pine martins but very dead otherwise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 IrForestryQ


    On the 97 prospectus it states once the trees are harvested and the land cleared then the land will be sold. Not before I assumed.

    So if the trees are not all cleared there may be grounds to notify the Ombudsman or PSRA, or we do not get what was promised ie 500 = 30,000 or near that per share.

    If it is gonna be a windfall and we do receive near to that, its fine. As the prospectus points out the projections are "reasonable" so there should be no reason for us to think or receive substantially less.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33 ForFsSake


    On the 97 prospectus it states once the trees are harvested and the land cleared then the land will be sold. Not before I assumed.

    So if the trees are not all cleared there may be grounds to notify the Ombudsman or PSRA, or we do not get what was promised ie 500 = 30,000 or near that per share.

    If it is gonna be a windfall and we do receive near to that, its fine. As the prospectus points out the projections are "reasonable" so there should be no reason for us to think or receive substantially less.


    I think the reason I am apprehensive about whats coming is the 10 year funds massively underperformed and investors didn't get much more than their money back. I don't believe the management ever gave a real reason why. So I struggle to believe these ones could go that well when the others, covering 13 years of the same time period, didn't.

    I hope your right though!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    I'd like to think the poor returns from the likes of the 10th Fund were down to timing - post fiscal crash and all that. The annual update letters were clear enough - warning us of the "difficult trading environment" in the run up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33 ForFsSake


    I'd like to think the poor returns from the likes of the 10th Fund were down to timing - post fiscal crash and all that. The annual update letters were clear enough - warning us of the "difficult trading environment" in the run up.

    Makes sense - am hoping the same!


  • Registered Users Posts: 30 pauljw11


    What is the latest here? We received a letter saying that cheques would be issued at the end of July, but no sign of it. Has anybody received one?


  • Registered Users Posts: 30 paris24


    They were delayed. They are being posted on Friday 16th Aug - so presumably received by Monday 19th?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Shaun73


    The stated reason for the delay in issuing cheques is "the sheer volume of change of contact details". There is another and different delay.
    An excerpt from the FAQ supplement that accompanied the letters dated 15 May 2019, which were signed by Paul Brosnan, Chairman:

    "Q. When can I get the latest set of Financial Statements?

    Once the audited financial statements have been completed by Deloitte at the end of June they will be made freely available to download at the Irish Forestry Funds website"

    Today is 13 August 2019. These financial statements have not been uploaded to the IFS website.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 IrForestryQ


    Very worrying that the accounts have not been posted on the website.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 dan1981


    The accounts for 2018 were only published for the various funds across the month of March this year.

    As they've said to me and others they're not going to reveal final dividends until cheques are issued. This may be why nothing for the working year to date have been put online yet.

    I don't particularly buy the argument that people cannot be told at this point - what I can only suspect is that it keeps people in the dark.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10 Hatters


    It’s very annoying, the cheques are most likely printed by now, what difference does it make by not disclosing the dividend at this stage? Not even a leak! All Veon staff must have signed a non disclosure agreement! I’d love to know what Paul Brosnan is going to pay himself....


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 IrForestryQ


    Looks like they invested in infrastructure to build more roads to harvest in 2018 so the land is very accessible now.

    We better get what was promised in the prospectus maturity end. Doesn't make sense to sell for anything less this early if the fund was being managed with the best interests of investors in mind. As they stated in the FY 2018 theres massive demand for timber now so theres value to be had in the land.

    I don't get why they are leaving it to the last minute to disclose the deal, most likely cuz people may kick up a fuss.


  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    The meeja could come in for a bit of criticism with all that summer bonanza stuff.
    Anyway hope for the best.


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Count Hairyfoot


    So today's supposed to be the day. Anybody feeling confident?


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 dan1981


    Cautiously optimistic that there will be some kind of return, just not optimistic that the return will actually be anywhere near what the returns were pitched at 20 years ago.

    I did notice on the VEON careers page they make reference to managing 30,000 acres of forest with an estimated value of €100 million. A third of that land has now been sold - but the 20-year (to date) funds sold would be the majority of the sales I would have thought across the bulk of the funds- so would assume perhaps the funds have been sold for 80m? Who can say...

    If they sold the whole thing to AXA for €100m and the Indo article (which they are now linking to from their own website) says investors put in a total of €40m the average investor is probably going to see a return of about 5%.

    But this is all assumptive speculation in the absence of any communication.


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Count Hairyfoot


    I'm clueless at how these this are calculated. What would 5% work out at - assuming 3rd fund bought for 500 in 1998?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭Tow


    £500 at 5% over 20 years = £1,326.65 = €1,684.50

    Year Year Interest Total Interest Balance
    1 £25.00 £25.00 £525.00
    2 £26.25 £51.25 £551.25
    3 £27.56 £78.81 £578.81
    4 £28.94 £107.75 £607.75
    5 £30.39 £138.14 £638.14
    6 £31.91 £170.05 £670.05
    7 £33.50 £203.55 £703.55
    8 £35.18 £238.73 £738.73
    9 £36.94 £275.66 £775.66
    10 £38.78 £314.45 £814.45
    11 £40.72 £355.17 £855.17
    12 £42.76 £397.93 £897.93
    13 £44.90 £442.82 £942.82
    14 £47.14 £489.97 £989.97
    15 £49.50 £539.46 £1,039.46
    16 £51.97 £591.44 £1,091.44
    17 £54.57 £646.01 £1,146.01
    18 £57.30 £703.31 £1,203.31
    19 £60.17 £763.48 £1,263.48
    20 £63.17 £826.65 £1,326.65

    Using: https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.php

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 dan1981


    I'm clueless at how these this are calculated. What would 5% work out at - assuming 3rd fund bought for 500 in 1998?

    I've been using a compound interest calculator on a site called MoneyChimp.

    £500 (€634.87) over 21 years at 5% would now be €1,768.72. If it was at the value Irish Forestry/Veon was promoting it at (14.4%) it would be worth €10,706.10 now - and would be worth €35,930.69 at maturity in the full 30 years. That's why it's the next 9/10 years which are the most important to the trees given this is where all the value actually is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Count Hairyfoot


    Damn I'm not as clueless as I thought - I got that figure and foolishly assumed I couldn't be correct. At that return I'd have been better off spending the initial 500 on scratch cards.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    The weather is so bad I'm not sure if the postie is late or has in fact gone past my door!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭Tow


    They are only posting the cheques today... If actually posted you are looking at Monday at the earliest.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19 tomgilboy


    Well ..today's the day ..but off course it's not ..it's Monday ..assuming they are dispatched today ??

    Will that be confirmed online ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Count Hairyfoot


    I rang Veon and they say they're in the post but wouldn't say what the return was.

    If we're unhappy do we have any avenue to complain?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 tomgilboy


    I rang Veon and they say they're in the post but wouldn't say what the return was.

    If we're unhappy do we have any avenue to complain?

    Yes off course you can ... especially if you talk to yourself ..coz there ain't anyone else to talk to ..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Fair to say they'll be happy to be shot of this.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25 dan1981


    tomgilboy wrote: »
    Well ..today's the day ..but off course it's not ..it's Monday ..assuming they are dispatched today ??

    Will that be confirmed online ?

    Best ask Veon mate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 IrForestryQ


    Tow wrote: »
    £500 at 5% over 20 years = £1,326.65 = €1,684.50

    Year Year Interest Total Interest Balance
    1 £25.00 £25.00 £525.00
    2 £26.25 £51.25 £551.25
    3 £27.56 £78.81 £578.81
    4 £28.94 £107.75 £607.75
    5 £30.39 £138.14 £638.14
    6 £31.91 £170.05 £670.05
    7 £33.50 £203.55 £703.55
    8 £35.18 £238.73 £738.73
    9 £36.94 £275.66 £775.66
    10 £38.78 £314.45 £814.45
    11 £40.72 £355.17 £855.17
    12 £42.76 £397.93 £897.93
    13 £44.90 £442.82 £942.82
    14 £47.14 £489.97 £989.97
    15 £49.50 £539.46 £1,039.46
    16 £51.97 £591.44 £1,091.44
    17 £54.57 £646.01 £1,146.01
    18 £57.30 £703.31 £1,203.31
    19 £60.17 £763.48 £1,263.48
    20 £63.17 £826.65 £1,326.65

    Using: https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/finance/calculators/compoundinterestcalculator.php

    Well perhaps, however they sold the land also which should be taken into consideration with the sale so I believe the estimation should be much higher.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Shaun73


    SWS Forestry Services is a Clonakilty based forestry services company similar to VEON. According to its website:

    “Growing for the Future – A Strategic Plan for the Forest Sector in Ireland estimated the real rate of return in forestry (sitka spruce) as 5% including land costs. Irish Forest Unit Trust (IFUT) estimates the return from forestry as being within the range of 5% to 7%.

    This figure does not include Grants and Premiums payable. Rates of return on investment in forestry are sensitive to many parameters, particularly land and timber prices. Over the years, timber prices world-wide have kept pace with inflation and most analysts agree that this scenario is likely to continue into the future.”

    IFUT website
    "Established in 1994, IFUT manages Irish pension fund and charity investment in forestry. IFUT’s unit holders include many of the major Irish pension funds and investment managers."


  • Registered Users Posts: 17 IrForestryQ


    dan1981 wrote: »
    I've been using a compound interest calculator on a site called MoneyChimp.

    £500 (€634.87) over 21 years at 5% would now be €1,768.72. If it was at the value Irish Forestry/Veon was promoting it at (14.4%) it would be worth €10,706.10 now - and would be worth €35,930.69 at maturity in the full 30 years. That's why it's the next 9/10 years which are the most important to the trees given this is where all the value actually is.

    True,

    They also sold the land so this should be a factor in the sale. If we don't get what was promised (and the promise was conservative) the ombudsman should be contacted as there is 10 years to go and value to be had for AXA otherwise why would they do the deal. I fear if we don't get a good buy out the fund has been sold on the cheap from investors that have waited a substantial time and at the end get shafted. Just my thoughts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Shaun73


    Reminder
    Extracts from letters to shareholders dated 15 May 2019, which were signed Paul Brosnan, Chairman.

    Paragraph 2
    ”The directors are very pleased to announce that we have accepted a strong offer from one of a number of parties following a competitive process and lengthy due diligence. The strength of this offer is compelling and it represents a strong secure return on investment.”

    Paragraph 5
    “This is a very positive development for the Preference Shareholders and an indication of how the market has rebounded for high-quality professionally managed assets over the last few years.”

    The information leaflet enclosed with the letters is similarly positive.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Shaun73


    Further reminder

    An extract from a statement dated 2 July 2019 on the VEON website in relation to the IFS sale:

    “Commenting on the transaction, Paul Brosnan, Chairman of the Irish Forestry Funds stated “this is a very positive development for our 12,400 shareholders, with the portfolio’s value and returns serving as a strong endorsement of the Irish forestry and timber sector” “


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Shaun73


    Actually there was more than one letter format dated 15 May 2019. I quoted above from the letter dealing with the Fourth Forestry Growth Plan. I have four other letters which have a different format and are headed “Important Announcement” but the very positive slant is identical:

    “strong offer”, “The strength of this offer is compelling ...” a strong secure return on investment”, “this robust offer”. “This is a very positive development for Preference Shareholders”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭Tow


    Shaun,

    It is a far cry from his Chairman's Letter two months earlier. Brexit waffle, illiquidity of the market, volatile economic cycles, macro-economic issues, risks etc. Buttering up share holders for what was in the pipeline.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Tow wrote: »
    Shaun,

    It is a far cry from his Chairman's Letter two months earlier. Brexit waffle, illiquidity of the market, volatile economic cycles, macro-economic issues, risks etc. Buttering up share holders for what was in the pipeline.

    That literally makes no sense. If they were paving the way for a poor return the tone wouldn't have shifted as it did.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭Tow


    Don't forget the fund is run by an expert in marketing.

    Paul Brosnan - Education: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-brosnan-919456/?originalSubdomain=ie

    Trinity College Dublin
    BSc MA Management Science & Marketing
    Dates attended or expected graduation 1982 – 1986

    College of Marketing & Design DIT
    Diploma in Advanced Marketing Techniques 1986

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25 dan1981


    I’m gonna assume nobody has gotten anything today...


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Count Hairyfoot


    I got my Super Valu club points notification. Hopefully Veon aren't paying that way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10 Hatters


    Still think it’s outrageous that they won’t disclose the dividend and the cheques gone out.... what is their motive behind this? If I get less than €3000 I’ll be raging! One share in 2nd fund.. 1997...grrrr


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Shaun73


    Tow

    I take the point to the extent that in pre-15 May correspondence the directors were widening their options to include early sale of the IFS assets.

    In the letters dated 15 May, the directors set very high benchmarks for their own performance. We'll know soon enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 dan1981


    ** Looks like updated accounts have been put live on the site in the past little while. **


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33 ForFsSake


    dan1981 wrote: »
    ** Looks like updated accounts have been put live on the site in the past little while. **

    I am not qualified to make any sense of the numbers but page 3 of the accounts on the 3rd forestry fund reads to me like we need to start expecting the worst. The positive tone from the previous letter is certainly missing here.... This isn't good!


    "As reported in prior years, the Company is facing significant new risks with others beginning to emerge. The new risks facing the company could not have been foreseen when the Company launched and have only developed over recent years. These include Brexit and a worsening US-China international trade war. Britain remains the largest export market for Irish timber products with upwards of 60% of Irish processed timber being exported into the British market. While Britain will continue to require timber imports, there are many sources for such timber, and it remains unclear what customs tariffs and administrative procedures will emerge which could act as barriers to Irish exports. The impact of tariffs, or any delays to the export of timber products into the British market, is likely to cause a fall in timber prices for forest owners, the magnitude of which is unknown at the current time.

    Equally, the emerging international trade war creates significant new risks for the company. If existing trade flows for timber are interrupted, especially where these impact substantial export markets such as Scandinavia, it is likely that the British market will become better supplied by markets that compete with Ireland for access to the UK. Clearly this will result in falls in timber prices and such a situation has been experienced in the past.

    New risks that are now emerging and which may impact on the company’s future performance include climate change and Ireland’s general economic performance. There are increasing warnings emerging about the risks facing the Irish economy. Should the Irish economy experience another downturn in the coming years it will have an impact on the Company. Experience demands that the Company must avoid seeking to sell its portfolio during such recessionary times. It is to be noted that Brexit is often cited as being the most likely catalyst for such a downturn and therefore this subject matter could have an even greater impact on the Company’s performance than has been outlined earlier in this report.

    Climate change is currently impacting timber flows across Europe. Unusually hot and dry summers in central Europe have promoted the outbreak of a particular pest and this has resulted in a glut of timber emerging into the European timber market as local governments seek to control the outbreak. While the Irish forestry sector must remain vigilant against the introduction of the pest into Ireland, the oversupply of timber in central Europe is resulting in more imports entering Britain from the continent. The effects of this are already visible in Ireland with reductions in timber prices being reported in the first half of 2019.

    As reported in prior years, the directors have been investigating various strategic initiatives for the benefit of the Preference Shareholders. It was noted in prior years that this strategic flexibility would include the early disposal of the Company’s forestry assets. During the period the Company received a compelling offer from a significant international investor for the Company’s forest portfolio. In light of the information available to the Company, and in consideration of the new risks identified in this and in prior year’s reports together with those pre-existing risks intrinsic to forestry, the directors are convinced that it is in the Preference Shareholders’ best interest to lock in the value that they already have in their portfolio. The directors have therefore taken the strategic decision to dispose of the Company’s forestry assets and return all profits to the Preference Shareholders."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭brophs


    ForFsSake wrote: »
    I am not qualified to make any sense of the numbers but page 3 of the accounts on the 3rd forestry fund reads to me like we need to start expecting the worst. The positive tone from the previous letter is certainly missing here.... This isn't good!


    "As reported in prior years, the Company is facing significant new risks with others beginning to emerge. The new risks facing the company could not have been foreseen when the Company launched and have only developed over recent years. These include Brexit and a worsening US-China international trade war. Britain remains the largest export market for Irish timber products with upwards of 60% of Irish processed timber being exported into the British market. While Britain will continue to require timber imports, there are many sources for such timber, and it remains unclear what customs tariffs and administrative procedures will emerge which could act as barriers to Irish exports. The impact of tariffs, or any delays to the export of timber products into the British market, is likely to cause a fall in timber prices for forest owners, the magnitude of which is unknown at the current time.

    Equally, the emerging international trade war creates significant new risks for the company. If existing trade flows for timber are interrupted, especially where these impact substantial export markets such as Scandinavia, it is likely that the British market will become better supplied by markets that compete with Ireland for access to the UK. Clearly this will result in falls in timber prices and such a situation has been experienced in the past.

    New risks that are now emerging and which may impact on the company’s future performance include climate change and Ireland’s general economic performance. There are increasing warnings emerging about the risks facing the Irish economy. Should the Irish economy experience another downturn in the coming years it will have an impact on the Company. Experience demands that the Company must avoid seeking to sell its portfolio during such recessionary times. It is to be noted that Brexit is often cited as being the most likely catalyst for such a downturn and therefore this subject matter could have an even greater impact on the Company’s performance than has been outlined earlier in this report.

    Climate change is currently impacting timber flows across Europe. Unusually hot and dry summers in central Europe have promoted the outbreak of a particular pest and this has resulted in a glut of timber emerging into the European timber market as local governments seek to control the outbreak. While the Irish forestry sector must remain vigilant against the introduction of the pest into Ireland, the oversupply of timber in central Europe is resulting in more imports entering Britain from the continent. The effects of this are already visible in Ireland with reductions in timber prices being reported in the first half of 2019.

    As reported in prior years, the directors have been investigating various strategic initiatives for the benefit of the Preference Shareholders. It was noted in prior years that this strategic flexibility would include the early disposal of the Company’s forestry assets. During the period the Company received a compelling offer from a significant international investor for the Company’s forest portfolio. In light of the information available to the Company, and in consideration of the new risks identified in this and in prior year’s reports together with those pre-existing risks intrinsic to forestry, the directors are convinced that it is in the Preference Shareholders’ best interest to lock in the value that they already have in their portfolio. The directors have therefore taken the strategic decision to dispose of the Company’s forestry assets and return all profits to the Preference Shareholders."
    I'm not sure that line should offer any sense of optimism for the postie's visit on Monday!


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 dan1981


    Page 12 seems to set out what the Shareholders Funds are after the sale. Does shareholder funds divided by the number of shares per fund indicate the potential return?

    If so....

    updatedfigs.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭antietam1


    Apart from the pests bit I already got that vibe from them, Brexit China etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33 ForFsSake


    dan1981 wrote: »
    Page 12 seems to set out what the Shareholders Funds are after the sale. Does shareholder funds divided by the number of shares per fund indicate the potential return?

    If so....

    shares.png

    Seems like that - but then can't be because those in the 2nd fund would also have got a letter promising good things and the above would be a loss on investment - what are we missing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭Count Hairyfoot


    If all else fails blame Brexit!

    Glad I didn't spend it already. I was hoping to pay 2 sets of college fees this year but looks like it'll be the Credit Union instead.

    A complete rank amateur could have gotten a return as good as these professionals have managed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 dan1981


    ForFsSake wrote: »
    Seems like that - but then can't be because those in the 2nd fund would also have got a letter promising good things and the above would be a loss on investment - what are we missing?

    Looking at the accounts only 1236 preference shares were actually issued, which means the return is €1124.83 - which is an annual return of 2.63%


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 dan1981


    dan1981 wrote: »
    Page 12 seems to set out what the Shareholders Funds are after the sale. Does shareholder funds divided by the number of shares per fund indicate the potential return?

    If so....

    updatedfigs.png

    I've updated the earlier figures to cover actual redeemed shares and added in the Growth funds too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 Shaun73


    This morning, I posted:

    “Growing for the Future – A Strategic Plan for the Forest Sector in Ireland estimated the real rate of return in forestry (sitka spruce) as 5% including land costs. Irish Forest Unit Trust (IFUT) estimates the return from forestry as being within the range of 5% to 7%.

    This figure does not include Grants and Premiums payable. Rates of return on investment in forestry are sensitive to many parameters, particularly land and timber prices. Over the years, timber prices world-wide have kept pace with inflation and most analysts agree that this scenario is likely to continue into the future.”

    On the basis of the figures produced so far, IFS/VEON have failed miserably to meet the 5% - 7% benchmark.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭Tow


    Another Eircom...

    Considering the funds are supposed to have another 10 years to run, the negativity is a smoke screen. I am sure Axa will make a killing and like Eircom the management (and employees) also.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



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