STOVES questions and answers here(see mod note in post 1)

Bass Reeves · 06-08-2020 10:13pm

t8010789 wrote: »

I own a 1950s semi d in Dublin with an old open fireplace in the front room. The chimney breast is in the centre of the wall with alcoves either side. I would like to put in an inset wood burning stove to be flush with the front of the chimney breast with an external air supply. The chimney may have to be relined. Do you think it would be possible/advisable to core drill a 4 inch hole from outside into one side of the alcove and then drill through one side of the chimney breast? The opening of the existing fireplace is quite small, could I make this slightly bigger to accept an inset? I have attached a plan of where the external air feed would need to run. Any advice would be much appreciated and a stove that could work in this situation. TIA

AFAIK you do not need a 4'' opening for the air feed 1/2" to 1" feed through copper pipe should suffice But I might be wrong.

Usuall to make you opening bigger it a matter of removing existing fireplace and having a look. After removing existing fireplace remove old fire back and take plaster off wall above fireplace this should expose the structure. You will see the lentil or firetop joining the chimney pots. The actual opening may be larger than existing fireplace opening.

Below is a similar job I recently done on a property I rent it an old farm house That I did up

Naos · 13-08-2020 10:38am

What is the general consensus around Flexi flu requirements?

Had two guys out for prices, one didn't really look at the chimney and just recommended getting a flexi flue.
The other guy had a quick look and said he does not believe it's required but would know more when working on it.

Also - AGR stove vs Henley? Roughly double the price for similar stove but if it's better quality...

CaptainCoPilot · 13-08-2020 11:44am

Naos wrote: »

What is the general consensus around Flexi flu requirements?

Had two guys out for prices, one didn't really look at the chimney and just recommended getting a flexi flue.
The other guy had a quick look and said he does not believe it's required but would know more when working on it.

Also - AGR stove vs Henley? Roughly double the price for similar stove but if it's better quality...

How old is the house? You can test the chimney to determine if it is leaking anywhere.

TBH, if it was me and there was any doubt id just go ahead and use a flexi flue.

Naos · 13-08-2020 12:36pm

CaptainCoPilot wrote: »

How old is the house? You can test the chimney to determine if it is leaking anywhere.

TBH, if it was me and there was any doubt id just go ahead and use a flexi flue.

1970's - unsure how often it was used, there's an electrical fire in there at the moment.

Bass Reeves · 13-08-2020 1:29pm

Naos wrote: »

What is the general consensus around Flexi flu requirements?

Had two guys out for prices, one didn't really look at the chimney and just recommended getting a flexi flue.
The other guy had a quick look and said he does not believe it's required but would know more when working on it.

Also - AGR stove vs Henley? Roughly double the price for similar stove but if it's better quality...

Most stove supplies as opposed to installers recommend using 4-5'' flue as opposed to existing 9"flue. There reasoning is that it makes the stove more efficient especially in the early part of the fire/heating cycle. They say that because the flue is smaller it throws more heat back into a room

Naos · 13-08-2020 2:22pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Most stove supplies as opposed to installers recommend using 4-5'' flue as opposed to existing 9"flue. There reasoning is that it makes the stove more efficient especially in the early part of the fire/heating cycle. They say that because the flue is smaller it throws more heat back into a room

Thanks Bass - good to know re; efficiency.

They are both a supplier & fitter... C L ANE Stoves, if anyone has any experience with them, seemed decent.

upupup · 13-08-2020 4:06pm

Naos wrote: »

What is the general consensus around Flexi flu requirements?

Had two guys out for prices, one didn't really look at the chimney and just recommended getting a flexi flue.
The other guy had a quick look and said he does not believe it's required but would know more when working on it.

Also - AGR stove vs Henley? Roughly double the price for similar stove but if it's better quality...

You may have a problem with draught and creosote in a stove without a liner.
You wont have these problems with a liner.
some people have no issues with no liner. it depends on what you are burning.burning wood increases the risk of creosote in a flue without the liner.

Naos · 13-08-2020 4:37pm

upupup wrote: »

You may have a problem with draught and creosote in a stove without a liner.
You wont have these problems with a liner.
some people have no issues with no liner. it depends on what you are burning.burning wood increases the risk of creosote in a flue without the liner.

Good to know, thank you. Yes, we'll want to burn wood as well as smokeless coal etc.

Right, all signs point towards just paying for the flue now to avoid any issues down the line.

Wearb · 13-08-2020 5:17pm

Naos wrote: »

Good to know, thank you. Yes, we'll want to burn wood as well as smokeless coal etc.

Right, all signs point towards just paying for the flue now to avoid any issues down the line.

One of the problems with downsizing a flue (smaller than stove outlet) is that you are derating the stove. I.e. a stove rated at say 20kw with a 6" flue, will not successfuly produce 20kw with a 5" flue.

Forge83 · 13-08-2020 7:33pm

Wearb wrote: »

One of the problems with downsizing a flue (smaller than stove outlet) is that you are derating the stove. I.e. a stove rated at say 20kw with a 6" flue, will not successfuly produce 20kw with a 5" flue.

It’s against building regulations and all installation regulations to down size a flue. It is not allowed as flue gases from the stove cannot escape the stove fast enough increasing the chances of carbon monoxide poisoning.
Another poster mentioned shops advising a 4/5” liner. No shop will advise a 4” liner, most will advise a 5” liner with a stove with a 5” collar and a 6” liner with a 6” collar. A good installer will advise a 6” liner with both as that is now the industry standard in the UK so filtering across to Ireland now.
Advice- Get a 6” 904 grade liner, will cost a bit more but better in the long run.
As for the stove, ACR are a good stove but in reality they are wood burning only. They market them as multi fuel but they don’t hold up to it. If you plan on burning a mix of fuels go with the Henley, if wood only go for the ACR.

Dempo1 · 13-08-2020 7:53pm

I'm thinking of installing a stove with boiler into a restored cottage. Foolishly I have stand alone stove and whilst it's great, I don't get the benifit of hot water. My questions are as follows

A. I want to retain my oil central heating (I've an internal boiler, can the new stove be hooked up to existing plumbing whilst retaining oil system as back up.

B. I believe I need a new emersion tank, if so, will this be compatible with oil system.

C. The big one. My cottage has a large central chimney, at least 2 feet in diameter, all I use it for is the flue for the oil boiler, the stove will obviously need its own flue, can I run a second flue alongside the oil burner flue. I know there's ample space, I'm just concerned about the safety aspect of this approach.

As it happens the internal boiler and all pipe work are in a central part of the cottage so positioning the new stove here and using the chimney would I believe reduce costs and make life easier for plumber.

Thanks in advance of any advice

upupup · 13-08-2020 11:17pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

I'm thinking of installing a stove with boiler into a restored cottage. Foolishly I have stand alone stove and whilst it's great, I don't get the benifit of hot water. My questions are as follows

A. I want to retain my oil central heating (I've an internal boiler, can the new stove be hooked up to existing plumbing whilst retaining oil system as back up.

B. I believe I need a new emersion tank, if so, will this be compatible with oil system.

C. The big one. My cottage has a large central chimney, at least 2 feet in diameter, all I use it for is the flue for the oil boiler, the stove will obviously need its own flue, can I run a second flue alongside the oil burner flue. I know there's ample space, I'm just concerned about the safety aspect of this approach.

As it happens the internal boiler and all pipe work are in a central part of the cottage so positioning the new stove here and using the chimney would I believe reduce costs and make life easier for plumber.

Thanks in advance of any advice

A. Yes you can hook the stove into the oil system.
B.I think you need a dual coil cylinder,one coil will be gravity fed from the stove and the second will be fed from the oil boiler.It needs to be vented for safety reasons.
C.I don't see any problem with putting in a second flue in the chimney just keep them apart in case of any unforeseen issue

Dempo1 · 13-08-2020 11:21pm

upupup wrote: »

A. Yes you can hook the stove into the oil system.
B.I think you need a dual coil cylinder,one coil will be gravity fed from the stove and the second will be fed from the oil boiler.It needs to be vented for safety reasons.
C.I don't see any problem with putting in a second flue in the chimney just keep them apart in case of any unforeseen issue

Thanks for that advice and response, appreciated, just a final quest re vent for new cylinder, I hadn't realised that. Again the current cylinder is the same general area, the entire current system almost like an island. I'm guessing just general vent will do, I won't need extraction fan etc?

upupup · 13-08-2020 11:37pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Thanks for that advice and response, appreciated, just a final quest re vent for new cylinder, I hadn't realised that. Again the current cylinder is the same general area, the entire current system almost like an island. I'm guessing just general vent will do, I won't need extraction fan etc?

There are different places and methods to put in the hot water safety vent for the stove.The reason is if you have a roaring fire going in the stove and you have a powercut.Then you have no pump to pump the water to the rads so all the heat goes to the cylinder which overheats and the hot water boils and escapes through the safety pipe/vent to the attic water tank.
If you don't have this in place,the stove will over heat and blow the pipes off, if you are lucky,if you are unlucky it becomes a bomb!
Get a plumber with experience in dual systems

Dempo1 · 13-08-2020 11:42pm

upupup wrote: »

There are different places and methods to put in the hot water safety vent for the stove.The reason is if you have a roaring fire going in the stove and you have a powercut.Then you have no pump to pump the water to the rads so all the heat goes to the cylinder which overheats and the hot water boils and escapes through the safety pipe/vent to the attic water tank.
If you don't have this in place,the stove will over heat and blow the pipes off, if you are lucky,if you are unlucky it becomes a bomb!
Get a plumber with experience in dual systems

Ah, now I get it, thanks so much, really appreciate it, now to find a plumber in Laois with this damn lockdown, impossible to get anything done, thanks again, good night

choicer · 22-08-2020 2:59pm

In our current house, there is a stove in the sitting room installed in the old fireplace.
We live in a fairly open country area and when there is any wind you can hear the wind - and feel it - in the stove. Is that normal?

Another question I have is that the flue was just stuck up the chimney and I think there is some draught coming in. Can you seal the old chimney area around the stove flue?

On really windy days, with all windows closed, the sitting room doors rattle so clearly draughts getting in somewhere.

Any guidance most welcome.

Dempo1 · 22-08-2020 3:15pm

choicer wrote: »

In our current house, there is a stove in the sitting room installed in the old fireplace.
We live in a fairly open country area and when there is any wind you can hear the wind - and feel it - in the stove. Is that normal?

Another question I have is that the flue was just stuck up the chimney and I think there is some draught coming in. Can you seal the old chimney area around the stove flue?

On really windy days, with all windows closed, the sitting room doors rattle so clearly draughts getting in somewhere.

Any guidance most welcome.

Sounds like you might need a revolving or statiobary chimney cowl. These fit on the top of your chimney flue assuming you have room for one.they help minimise draught. I'm told revolving ones can possibly increase fuel consumption however as they draw air up in windy conditions. Basically you need something to minimise draught in your flue.

Just as an aside, you may need to insure your using your stove to it's full potential, they require some ventilation to insure fuel is reaching a good temperature, I made the mistake in keeping vent closed as much as possible, meaning fuel not reaching full heat and making smoking of room more likely, and finally insure fuel dry, especially turf if you use it.

rpmcs · 23-08-2020 12:26pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Sounds like you might need a revolving or statiobary chimney cowl. These fit on the top of your chimney flue assuming you have room for one.they help minimise draught. I'm told revolving ones can possibly increase fuel consumption however as they draw air up in windy conditions. Basically you need something to minimise draught in your flue.

Just as an aside, you may need to insure your using your stove to it's full potential, they require some ventilation to insure fuel is reaching a good temperature, I made the mistake in keeping vent closed as much as possible, meaning fuel not reaching full heat and making smoking of room more likely, and finally insure fuel dry, especially turf if you use it.

Not to sound like a drama queen, but to offer some one advice of a cowl where op has said the flue possible may not be sealed properly into chimney!
Seriously people, if the flue is not sealed properly, a cowl might , at best create more draught around the unsealed flue.

In a windy area, you may here noise that is not actually coming down chimney/ up chimney, generally in an older buildings, you can have gaps in doors/vents etc which get air pushed into house and through stove up chimney, but if you are feeling draughts coming down chimney then questions needs to be asked.
Do you have carbon monoxide alarm?
Does the stove/ possible unsealed flue smoke at any stages during operation.

What i would recommend is to possible get a installer to have a look or a good chimney sweep to visually assess with camera.
A good chimney sweep should be able to tell you fairly quickly if some seals may need sealing.
Its recommended that you get chimney sweep every year and inspected if in any doubt of condition.

But in my opinion, i would be very reluctant to recommend just going of buying a cowl with out having more info or visual inspection.

Dempo1 · 23-08-2020 12:39pm

rpmcs wrote: »

Not to sound like a drama queen, but to offer some one advice of a cowl where op has said the flue possible may not be sealed properly into chimney!
Seriously people, if the flue is not sealed properly, a cowl might , at best create more draught around the unsealed flue.

In a windy area, you may here noise that is not actually coming down chimney/ up chimney, generally in an older buildings, you can have gaps in doors/vents etc which get air pushed into house and through stove up chimney, but if you are feeling draughts coming down chimney then questions needs to be asked.
Do you have carbon monoxide alarm?
Does the stove/ possible unsealed flue smoke at any stages during operation.

What i would recommend is to possible get a installer to have a look or a good chimney sweep to visually assess with camera.
A good chimney sweep should be able to tell you fairly quickly if some seals may need sealing.
Its recommended that you get chimney sweep every year and inspected if in any doubt of condition.

But in my opinion, i would be very reluctant to recommend just going of buying a cowl with out having more info or visual inspection.

My humble apologies, I miss read post, I thought down draught from winds was the issue. I've a stand alone twin lined flue, living at the side of a mountain and a wind cowl was my saviour

positron · 03-09-2020 5:22pm

Hi, general query regarding stoves - what are the disadvantages of a gas stove? We are considering getting a gas stove to replace a 'decorative gas insert fire' type thing and vast majority of people seems to be getting wood/multifuel stoves. We don't have much land or free wood source, and the fireplace already has natural gas (mains). Am I missing any other compelling reasons to pick wood burning stove over gas?

choicer · 07-09-2020 10:53am

rpmcs wrote: »

Not to sound like a drama queen, but to offer some one advice of a cowl where op has said the flue possible may not be sealed properly into chimney!
Seriously people, if the flue is not sealed properly, a cowl might , at best create more draught around the unsealed flue.

In a windy area, you may here noise that is not actually coming down chimney/ up chimney, generally in an older buildings, you can have gaps in doors/vents etc which get air pushed into house and through stove up chimney, but if you are feeling draughts coming down chimney then questions needs to be asked.
Do you have carbon monoxide alarm?
Does the stove/ possible unsealed flue smoke at any stages during operation.

What i would recommend is to possible get a installer to have a look or a good chimney sweep to visually assess with camera.
A good chimney sweep should be able to tell you fairly quickly if some seals may need sealing.
Its recommended that you get chimney sweep every year and inspected if in any doubt of condition.

But in my opinion, i would be very reluctant to recommend just going of buying a cowl with out having more info or visual inspection.

Thanks for that reply!
We do have the alarm and there is no noise from it. When the fire is on there is no smoke coming down/out even on the windiest of days so maybe there is no gap. As it was an old house, there are 2 chinney pots but I think only one is used so maybe the issue is that the second one wasn't closed properly.
Our hall area is chilly at times so maybe the draught there is coming in and up the stove like you mentioned.
Have to book the chimney sweep soon so will certainly get one with camera inspection service

blindsider · 07-09-2020 7:14pm

positron wrote: »

Hi, general query regarding stoves - what are the disadvantages of a gas stove? We are considering getting a gas stove to replace a 'decorative gas insert fire' type thing and vast majority of people seems to be getting wood/multifuel stoves. We don't have much land or free wood source, and the fireplace already has natural gas (mains). Am I missing any other compelling reasons to pick wood burning stove over gas?

How much is the gas stove? I looked at them and they seem pretty expensive!

Also, my understanding is they're quite expensive to run....and although gas is significantly cheaper than electricity, it may not always be so.

OTOH if you have a gas connection there already......

positron · 07-09-2020 9:07pm

^^ Thanks, good points.

Gas stove is at least as expensive as wood burning stoves but often more (especially since gas stoves can be in fancy forms, hole in the wall etc - crazy prices). Regular typical gas stove is about the same cost as regular wood / multi-fuel stove, based on my research so far.

Cost of fuel - I found this SEAI document comparing various fuels and cost: https://www.seai.ie/publications/Domestic-Fuel-Cost-Comparison.pdf

According to that, Natural Gas is about 7 to 10 cents per kWh. And wood can be 6 to 10 cents per kWh, depending how much you buy at a time. Of course if you have your own trees to fell etc, it could be cheaper.

Interesting point of about future prices - natural gas went up 10 - 23% in 2019 alone, although lately natural gas, crude oil etc are at all time low.

Deco99 · 12-09-2020 12:23am

Building a small extension and are putting a stove in the corner. The flu is going to go straight up and out a vaulted ceiling. Currently at roofing stage and want to know what preparation for stove carpenter should make to avoid ripping at tiles later. Have the lead flashing, 1000mm mi flue twin wall and a storm collar. Does he need to fix all or just the lead flashing for now, before stove fully installed?

Forge83 · 12-09-2020 10:05am

Deco99 wrote: »

Building a small extension and are putting a stove in the corner. The flu is going to go straight up and out a vaulted ceiling. Currently at roofing stage and want to know what preparation for stove carpenter should make to avoid ripping at tiles later. Have the lead flashing, 1000mm mi flue twin wall and a storm collar. Does he need to fix all or just the lead flashing for now, before stove fully installed?

Would you not ask the stove fitter to tell you how to prepare it?
Your list of materials would lead me to believe you don’t have a clue what you are doing.

Deco99 · 12-09-2020 7:44pm

Forge83 wrote: »

Would you not ask the stove fitter to tell you how to prepare it?
Your list of materials would lead me to believe you don’t have a clue what you are doing.

You're right, I don't. Not ready to fit the stove yet only at roofing stage and it's only a small extension wanted to be able to allow carpenter to finish rather than having home come back and have to take back up parts of roof tiles. All I needed was to put the lead flashing, the other stuff was unnecessary at this point. Doesn't matter anyway, decided against going out through the roof, as o guessed too many potential issues

Deco99 · 12-09-2020 7:50pm

Forge83 wrote: »

Would you not ask the stove fitter to tell you how to prepare it?
Your list of materials would lead me to believe you don’t have a clue what you are doing.

Not on here for definite answers, more when I'm talking to the experts I have a better understanding of my options. Have noticed you get all sorts of advice in a renovation. The more expensive option is always recommended as necessary and that's true in some cases but not all, so without a little research/preparation it's hard to come across as anything but clueless/easy mark. Now I have at least one clue on this subject. Thanks.

Bass Reeves · 12-09-2020 8:18pm

Deco99 wrote: »

Not on here for definite answers, more when I'm talking to the experts I have a better understanding of my options. Have noticed you get all sorts of advice in a renovation. The more expensive option is always recommended as necessary and that's true in some cases but not all, so without a little research/preparation it's hard to come across as anything but clueless/easy mark. Now I have at least one clue on this subject. Thanks.

If you are not quit ready for to fit stove you are probably better waiting to sort chimney then. If you are going out through the roof you will want to go up as straight as possible. Fitting a chimney exit flue now could mean when you exit out of stove they will not be in line either on distance from wall or central to position of stove against wall either. Do not skim ceiling until stove is fitted, then you will have a clean finish on ceiling. If it's tiles are on the roof as opposed to slate these are easy to remove and replace

OwenM · 14-09-2020 1:04pm

Get your stove fitter in for a look now.

Part J of the building regs also worth a read: https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C37240%2Cen.pdf

Maximus_1 · 14-09-2020 7:32pm

Looking for some guidance on insert/casette stoves. Going to bite the bullet and move on from the open fire. New surround needed also. The fireplace opening is 16", room dimensions 4.3M X 4.5M and 2.5M ceiling. House insulation is decent as 12 years old, double doors into kitchen and one singe door into hall, one rad in the room.

My query is around sizing firstly. Stove calculators online come up with around 4.5Kw needed for those dimensions. I've read/heard some conflicting advice on what I should do, get one exactly close to that at 5kW or higher at 6 or 7. I am wary of getting a 5kW in case its not enough, am I right in thinking that a 5kW stoves says 5 as the max not the median type output? If so I assume up to 6 is fine?

I had my eye on a Stovax Riva 500 which is 7kW but it might be too much stove for the room at 7. Also size wise its too large for my 16" fireplace without breaking out some space either side. Can anyone advise on how many kWs I need? Are the online calculators accurate I would you say I need to add 25%?

Next question relates to manufacturers.

The Vitae range by Heatdesign look well https://www.heatdesign.ie/product/vitae-6kw-cassette-stove/

Are they good quality?

Henley?

Arada Stoves? For example https://www.aradastoves.com/i500/p36737

I've been put off Stanley by a few people regarding their quality, I used to think they were the gold standard!?

Finally getting it fitted. If I don't buy from the local shop who do supply fitting for example would a regular plumber be best? There isn't an actual Irish stove fitting cert I understand. Somebody competent though I won't be cutting corners there.

STOVES questions and answers here(see mod note in post 1)

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