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NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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    #122
    Zack Morris
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭Zack Morris


    We've jumped up to the 37th fastest country in the world: http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

    Only 2Mb behind the UK.


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    #123
    rob808
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭rob808


    Wow I hope this true love to have FTTH that be amazing way better than mobile or adsl let hope government give it to eircom or at least esb.


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    #124
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Zack Morris wrote: »
    We've jumped up to the 37th fastest country in the world: http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

    Only 2Mb behind the UK.

    Yes, we have been powering up this chart over the last two years as people switch to UPC and VDSL high speed broadband.

    In the next year, with the continued rollout and take up of VDSL and the rollout of FTTH by ESB and Eircom, I expect us to overtake the UK, Spain and Germany, maybe even the US!


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    #125
    Hackery
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Hackery


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, we have been powering up this chart over the last two years as people switch to UPC and VDSL high speed broadband.

    In the next year, with the continued rollout and take up of VDSL and the rollout of FTTH by ESB and Eircom, I expect us to overtake the UK, Spain and Germany, maybe even the US!

    Considering our low density population and ribbon development that is a huge achievement.


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    #126
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Hopefully we get some parallel plans for additional transit like "Arctic Fibre", with all that downstream potential we're gonna need a lot of peering to the server farms on the continent.


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    #127
    rob808
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭rob808


    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.


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    #128
    MajesticDonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭MajesticDonkey


    rob808 wrote: »
    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.

    No doubt, but it's inevitable that wireless and satellite will be a thing of the past in years to come.


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    #129
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    rob808 wrote: »
    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.

    You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs!

    Did we worry about the buggy whip industry when the car was invented? Nope and we shouldn't let these companies stand in the way of people in rural Ireland finally getting high quality broadband.


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    #130
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    I'm more worried about how a subsidised Eircom rural FTTH rollout would be regulated.
    If they charge operators on a usage basis like they did with "Bitstream" it'll be totally handicapped.


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    #131
    Tommy Lagahan
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Tommy Lagahan


    rob808 wrote: »
    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.
    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    No doubt, but it's inevitable that wireless and satellite will be a thing of the past in years to come.

    The sooner the better, I wanna get this junk off my window lol!

    YGpCRGf.png


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    #132
    MBSnr
    Registered Users Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    bk wrote: »
    .
    My gut tells me I'd prefer the ESB, but I honestly wonder if that is just my distrust of Eircom.
    .
    .

    In all of my personal and business dealings with Eircom they have been nothing short of inept and a disaster of a company. Our business account manager couldn't give a toss, he moved on but didn't have the courtesy to tell us. We now have no account manager and have been left hanging - not an issue until the last few days when we had problems with billing. Getting hold of anyone who knows anything is incredibly hard - no it's impossible. Auto out of office replies with no contact details. Pushed to the automated phone menu system every time..........

    Seems it still runs as a state company with no internal comms and everyone doing their blinked roles. The dept. manager isn't answering emails, picking up the phone or replying to VMs. So unprofessional it hurts. Ironically it appears the younger lower down employees are very helpful but cannot resolve our issues and the higher up employees who can authorise and help fix things are un-contactable by customers.

    ESB for me. I've had less interaction with them but they just strike me as a more professional company. I mean compare the electricity infrastructure with the telephone. On land around us, ESB networks have worked on overhead wiring and it was always done quickly, professionally and with minimal mess. They tend to respond the same day and give advance notice of requiring access to the land. With electricity you can't bodge and get away with it.

    Eircom on the other hand replaced the pole outside our house. In my front garden was part of a tree they chopped down, large metal plates, 12 inch bolts & nuts plus other assorted debris and scrap metal left over from the job.... Real pros.


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    #133
    Jakey Rolling
    Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭Jakey Rolling


    rob808 wrote: »
    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.

    As I said earlier in the thread, some people are likely to be left with no service for a while during the rollout of fibre.

    Wireless ISPs will likely have to shut down when they lose so many customers that they are making a loss - that leaves the remaining customers with no service other than maybe 3G or satellite until they are hooked up to fibre.

    Some sort of transition plan to ensure this doesn't happen would be welcome.

    100412.2526@compuserve.com



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    #134
    KOR101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    Jakey Rolling wrote: »
    As I said earlier in the thread, some people are likely to be left with no service for a while during the rollout of fibre.

    Wireless ISPs will likely have to shut down when they lose so many customers that they are making a loss - that leaves the remaining customers with no service other than maybe 3G or satellite until they are hooked up to fibre.

    Some sort of transition plan to ensure this doesn't happen would be welcome.
    My personal transition plan is to make great use of the local town (10km away) that has FTTC and therefore incredible free wifi. And closer to home, to simply drive (literally 50m) to a spot where I can get 3G with, admittedly, poor speeds.


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    #135
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Jakey Rolling wrote: »
    As I said earlier in the thread, some people are likely to be left with no service for a while during the rollout of fibre.

    Wireless ISPs will likely have to shut down when they lose so many customers that they are making a loss - that leaves the remaining customers with no service other than maybe 3G or satellite until they are hooked up to fibre.

    Some sort of transition plan to ensure this doesn't happen would be welcome.

    If the WISPs are proactive they could transition to become fibre resellers. I see that Net1 who are predominantly a WISP based in the North East are already reselling VDSL.


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    #136
    rob808
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭rob808


    Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »
    If the WISPs are proactive they could transition to become fibre resellers. I see that Net1 who are predominantly a WISP based in the North East are already reselling VDSL.
    yea I see that happening make sense they just resell it as FTTH products.I would see Eircom tripe play come into action as well Tv,broadband,mobile and it mostly like work better than vdsl because of the speed that FTTH offers.


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    #137
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    Ive never liked Eircom, they held us back for 15 years and broadband/internet outside of our towns is still a one way trip to the mid 1990s. Most people outside of town boundary's are stuck on less than 8meg, with many still dialing up to the sound of their 56k modems.

    But, at this stage if Eircom are the one's who will finally offer a plan to provide FTTH across the nation within the next 5 years, I will gladly support them. It's FTTH or nothing imo, time to build a network for the nation. No wireless crap or half measures.


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    #138
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, we have been powering up this chart over the last two years as people switch to UPC and VDSL high speed broadband.

    In the next year, with the continued rollout and take up of VDSL and the rollout of FTTH by ESB and Eircom, I expect us to overtake the UK, Spain and Germany, maybe even the US!
    I've been watching the relationship between Germany and Ireland on that index for a while. Ireland was in 42nd place on the 5th of December and Germany was in 32nd place. Now Ireland is a whisker away from Germany and in 37th place and Germany is still (standing still!) in 32nd place.


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    #139
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    MBSnr wrote: »
    In all of my personal and business dealings with Eircom they have been nothing short of inept and a disaster of a company. Our business account manager couldn't give a toss, he moved on but didn't have the courtesy to tell us. We now have no account manager and have been left hanging - not an issue until the last few days when we had problems with billing. Getting hold of anyone who knows anything is incredibly hard - no it's impossible. Auto out of office replies with no contact details. Pushed to the automated phone menu system every time..........

    Seems it still runs as a state company with no internal comms and everyone doing their blinked roles. The dept. manager isn't answering emails, picking up the phone or replying to VMs. So unprofessional it hurts. Ironically it appears the younger lower down employees are very helpful but cannot resolve our issues and the higher up employees who can authorise and help fix things are un-contactable by customers.

    ESB for me. I've had less interaction with them but they just strike me as a more professional company. I mean compare the electricity infrastructure with the telephone. On land around us, ESB networks have worked on overhead wiring and it was always done quickly, professionally and with minimal mess. They tend to respond the same day and give advance notice of requiring access to the land. With electricity you can't bodge and get away with it.

    Eircom on the other hand replaced the pole outside our house. In my front garden was part of a tree they chopped down, large metal plates, 12 inch bolts & nuts plus other assorted debris and scrap metal left over from the job.... Real pros.
    It would be a nice long term objective for the countryside to use the existing electricity infrastructure for FTTH and gradually to remove the falling apart telephone poles that blight the place. 50% fewer cables and poles would be a nice indirect benefit of retiring copper for telecoms purposes!


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    #140
    rob808
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭rob808


    Eircom has 500m set aside for there FTTH and LTE Advanced that they use for hard to reach areas such as mountain and islands.If they win the contract I wonder what BT Ireland and ESB and Vodafone plans would be and how much they would put to it and what they use.let hope it just one bidder wins it and not multiple bidders that be a disaster.


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    #141
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    rob808 wrote: »
    Eircom has 500m set aside for there FTTH and LTE Advanced that they use for hard to reach areas such as mountain and islands.If they win the contract I wonder what BT Ireland and ESB and Vodafone plans would be and how much they would put to it and what they use.let hope it just one bidder wins it and not multiple bidders that be a disaster.

    Again, that isn't true!

    Eircom has said that they are willing to bid on the NBP and therefore invest in it. But they certainly don't have 500million "set aside" for rural areas, that is pure fantasy!

    If Eircom wins the NBP bid, then they will raise the funds for their part of the investment via loans.

    If ESB/Vodafone win the contract then they would do the same. In fact they are financially in a far better position to do this then Eircom.

    Eircom is in debt to the tune of 2.5 Billion after burning their bond holders to the tune of 2.5 Billion as part of their debt restricting. This makes it extremely hard to borrow new capital and they have to pay a premium when they do.

    Vodafone on the other hand, doesn't even need to borrow, they have 24 Billion in cash after their sold their share in Verizon for 100 Billion!

    Likewise, the ESB made a profit of €415 million in 2013 (2014 results not available yet), so again they could pay that out of cash if they wanted.


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    #142
    rob808
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭rob808


    bk wrote: »
    Again, that isn't true!

    Eircom has said that they are willing to bid on the NBP and therefore invest in it. But they certainly don't have 500million "set aside" for rural areas, that is pure fantasy!

    If Eircom wins the NBP bid, then they will raise the funds for their part of the investment via loans.

    If ESB/Vodafone win the contract then they would do the same. In fact they are financially in a far better position to do this then Eircom.

    Eircom is in debt to the tune of 2.5 Billion after burning their bond holders to the tune of 2.5 Billion as part of their debt restricting. This makes it extremely hard to borrow new capital and they have to pay a premium when they do.

    Vodafone on the other hand, doesn't even need to borrow, they have 24 Billion in cash after their sold their share in Verizon for 100 Billion!

    Likewise, the ESB made a profit of €415 million in 2013 (2014 results not available yet), so again they could pay that out of cash if they wanted.
    My bad didn't know that guess we wait and see my worry is if Vodafone migth try push that mobile wireless stuff for NBP to save money if they win because doubt they want spend there profits.


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    #143
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    rob808 wrote: »
    My bad didn't know that guess we wait and see my worry is if Vodafone migth try push that mobile wireless stuff for NBP to save money if they win because doubt they want spend there profits.

    First of all, it might not be the joint venture of ESB + Vodafone who bids, it could be just the ESB.

    Secondly in Vodafones submission to the NBP, even they said that FTTH is pretty much the only option.


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    #144
    KOR101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    I posted on the relative borrowing rates of Eircom and the ESB in December.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93344833&postcount=1161

    Since then, the ESB's 10 year bond yield has fallen by about 0.5% (to 1.19%), whereas Eircom's yield has risen (to 7.41%).

    http://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/en/search/result?order_by=wm_vbfw.name&name_isin_wkn=ESB+FINANCE

    http://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/en/search/result?order_by=wm_vbfw.name&name_isin_wkn=Eircom

    Just to illustrate the difference this makes. Let's say you tried to put a value on 50 years of revenues of €500 per house. If you take those rates as the 50 year borrowing rate, and assume 1% inflation over that period, in financial terms, the present value (PV) would be...

    ESB €23,827
    Eircom €7,451

    Don't hammer me on the assumptions. I do know how to do this for real. The point is to illustrate the difference the borrowing rates make to the investment case both companies face. The ESB should be hands down winners in the bidding.


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    #145
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    KOR101 wrote: »
    Don't hammer me on the assumptions. I do know how to do this for real. The point is to illustrate the difference the borrowing rates make to the investment case both companies face. The ESB should be hands down winners in the bidding.

    Is DCENR required to take such things into account by any chance? Given that there's a clear risk factor in giving a contract to a company that's been in and out of financial trouble so many times.


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    #146
    mass_debater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭mass_debater


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Is DCENR required to take such things into account by any chance? Given that there's a clear risk factor in giving a contract to a company that's been in and out of financial trouble so many times.

    They have a huge habit of making the wrong choices and listening to bad advice


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    #147
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Is DCENR required to take such things into account by any chance? Given that there's a clear risk factor in giving a contract to a company that's been in and out of financial trouble so many times.

    Well the financials should be reflected in the bidding rates.

    Putting it in extremely simple terms, lets say a FTTH install costs €1,000 [1]

    That means the total cost for the ESB over 10 years [2] is €1,060.84

    While the total cost for Eircom is €1,403.82 !!!!!

    They have no choice but to factor in the cost of interest on the capital loans when bidding on the contract. And you can see there is a massive difference in cost between Eircom and the ESB

    One thing that Eircom has in it's advantage is that it already has a deep fibre network with FTTC, which might reduce it's costs slightly. On the other hand the ESB's overhead network is in much better shape, Eircom might have to replace lots of it's rural telephone poles, etc. So that might balance that advantage out.

    However it is hard to see how the ESB couldn't under bid them and also be prefereable in the governments eyes as they are a semi state and it would thus keep the new FTTH network our government ownership. Prefereable for all of us.

    [1] €1,000 is about the cost for an urban install, rural would be much more expensive.

    [2] Realistically they would probably look to finance it over a longer period, 20 years, etc.


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    #148
    rob808
    Registered Users Posts: 2,311 ✭✭✭rob808


    Well esb have about 1,300km fibre optics cables in Ireland were as Eircom has 12,000km of fibre optic cables.I think by going by that don't know how Esb could do it better Than Eircom.


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    #149
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,166 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    rob808 wrote: »
    Well esb have about 1,300km fibre optics cables in Ireland were as Eircom has 12,000km of fibre optic cables.I think by going by that don't know how Esb could do it better Than Eircom.

    Eircoms pole infrastructure is knackered though, and the ESB have a very robust deployment with which to run an access network on. And they have a core fibre ring around pretty much the entire coast. Both sides have their advantages, but one side is broke .


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    #150
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    rob808 wrote: »
    Well esb have about 1,300km fibre optics cables in Ireland were as Eircom has 12,000km of fibre optic cables.I think by going by that don't know how Esb could do it better Than Eircom.

    That is true, but the vast majority of that fiber is in urban areas. Eircom have run little in the way of Fiber to rural exchanges. They are normally connected over microwave links.

    So while they might have a small edge here, it isn't as much as it might first seem, they will both likely have to run the same amount of fiber for rural FTTH.

    This advantage comes more into play when the ESB is rolling out FTTH in urban areas, it would be easier for Eircom to rollout a competing FTTH network from their FTTC cabs.


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    #151
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Eircom Wholesale has posted a new video about the NBP and their rural FTTH plans:

    http://vimeo.com/118729129

    Very interesting. What it most exciting about all this is that they seem to be really pushing FTTH as the only solution and that is such good news for rural Ireland.


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