NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Cuddlesworth · 19-02-2015 10:56am

KoKane wrote: »

So does anyone have any theories behind the current Eircom price increase and the option for getting out of their contract?

Does anyone think something is coming? Perhaps Eircom reckon they're gonna be losing customers soon and will try to cover the damage because maybe they reckon its temporary?

If a price war is the likely outcome of the ESB FTTH rollout, perhaps Eircom simply want to start the war at a higher price?

Would be curious to hear any ideas anyone has.

In general, when UPC move into a area, Eircom are already in Situ with a DSL product. Eircom then proceed lose accounts hand over fist to UPC.

Keeping that in mind its fair to say that currently, Eircom don't compete with UPC. So its not a bad business decision to raise the prices of their service in areas that they have no competition in to try shore up the revenue.

ED E · 19-02-2015 11:13am

As cuddlesworth has said, in urban areas UPC destroy eircom. They can turn on 500Mbps in the morning if they like and VDSL averages around 50Mb or so for the same money and worse bundles.

Eircoms footprint is several times that of UPCs though, and most of the cost comes from rural lines where UPC will never touch. The one place they stand to lose ground though is to mobile and FWA providers on longer DSL lines way out in the sticks, but these lines lose money anways so no biggie.

If they can shed a few "toxic" lines and increase monthly revenue then they'll be in a better position financially to push GPON FTTH and maybe start to compete in urban areas. When they've finished the VDSL cabs they'll be poised to rapidly deploy GPON.

dalta5billion · 19-02-2015 12:18pm

KoKane wrote: »

So does anyone have any theories behind the current Eircom price increase and the option for getting out of their contract?

Does anyone think something is coming? Perhaps Eircom reckon they're gonna be losing customers soon and will try to cover the damage because maybe they reckon its temporary?

If a price war is the likely outcome of the ESB FTTH rollout, perhaps Eircom simply want to start the war at a higher price?

Would be curious to hear any ideas anyone has.

I'm open to correction on this, but doesn't eircom wholesale charge for backhaul on a 95th percentile usage basis? People are probably using more and more data now?

Operators probably have to make upgrades to interconnections as well, which increases costs.

bk · 19-02-2015 12:57pm

ED E wrote: »

Interesting pub from COMREG today:

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg1517.pdf

I'm very surprised that Eircom want to open up their ducts to other companies!

I wonder are they looking to do this to use as leverage to force the ESB to do the same and allow Eircom access to their ducts and poles.

Of course the devil will be in the detail on how this is priced etc. For instance they could open up access, but price it so high that no one can afford to use.

I'm sure UPC will be very interested in this. Could help them reach new customers more cheaply.

murphaph · 19-02-2015 1:38pm

bk wrote: »

I wonder are they looking to do this to use as leverage to force the ESB to do the same and allow Eircom access to their ducts and poles.

I'd say that's it exactly. We all know in urban areas the duct networks are probably more or less equivalent so the ESB won't be bothered using Eircom ducts in most cases, BUT in areas with overhead supply the Eircom lines are barely able to stay up without adding any fibre gear. They are simply not a solid foundation upon which to run FTTH. In contrast (and probably because electricity is actually dangerous) the ESB's overhead network is in excellent shape and would be well able to carry the fibre load without needing any remedial works. That would make stringing fibre over their network significantly cheaper I believe.

The UPC component is interesting however as they don't have much to "lose" (no overhead network and their typical setup where the cable runs along the fascia boards of houses will not become open access as home owners won't allow it. Where UPC have ducts (in newer developments) you'll also find ESB and Eircom ducts, so they won't be any use to anyone else really.

UPC could massively expand if this happens, which would be great for the consumer. let's face it, Eircom built many of those ducts as a state entity. They morally at least belong to the people and should be used (like the ESB ones) to provide the best service to the people by whomever that may be!

Hackery · 19-02-2015 4:46pm

bk wrote: »

Of course the devil will be in the detail on how this is priced etc. For instance they could open up access, but price it so high that no one can afford to use.

It will be a regulated product so there is no way ComReg will let them price it high. It will have to be cost justified and signed off by ComReg's pricing team as with all eircom Wholesale regulated products.

bk · 23-02-2015 12:09pm

Hackery wrote: »

It will be a regulated product so there is no way ComReg will let them price it high. It will have to be cost justified and signed off by ComReg's pricing team as with all eircom Wholesale regulated products.

Comreg's pricing team has been signing off on one of the highest line rentals in the world for the past decade, so that doesn't give me much comfort!

rob808 · 02-03-2015 7:22pm

Eu funding 820.2 million for eu structural fund for Ireland how much will go to broadband I wonder.

Bookies Twist · 17-03-2015 11:14pm

Thats a good question , but wasn't there a recent report of Brendan Howlin getting €450 million of the E.U . for broadband which would enable broadband to be rolled out as soon as possible. I hope that it is as I live in a rural area, cannot get Eircom broadband of any category. Mobile broadband is not very good. Satellite broadband would be too expensive for me. I have 3 mobile broadband at the moment with 60 GB download per month. But I also have 4 teenagers who eat a massive amount of my monthly allowence. My monthly bills are often well above the €35 euro . My last one was €129. According to the map on the government new National Broadband scheme, we are in the NBS area. So hopefully we might some decent broadband.

ED E · 18-03-2015 11:27am

The NBS was ceased. Its the NBP maps you need to be looking at.

KOR101 · 18-03-2015 9:50pm

In today's independent.....

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/existing-infrastructure-should-reduce-500m-taxpayer-bill-for-national-broadband-plan-government-31077928.html

In an official update, Departmental officials say that they met with European Commission officials earlier this month to discuss a formal state aid application for the rural broadband roll-out. EU rules forbid governments from interfering with existing competition unless there is a clear lack of services present.
And the government has held discussions with the European Investment Bank, the Irish Strategic Investment Fund and commercial banks to consider how it will fund the new broadband rollout.
The Government's standing estimate is that it is ready to contribute between €355m and €512m of the total cost of rolling out the national broadband network, with private operators providing matching amounts.
But recent estimates from industry figures such as Eircom’s chief executive Richard Moat put the cost of connecting every rural dwelling to fibre at “considerably” less than €1bn.

And, some discouraging info....

Despite prioritising fibre, the Department will also consider wireless broadband delivery, according to its officials. It is to inspect a high speed “fixed wireless pilot project” in the coming months, say officials. And it has specified "community points" such as Garda stations and schools that may be used to transfer fibre to a phone line or a wireless signal to reach the house or business.

Mobile cellular broadband, such as 4G, has been ruled out.

And......

The Department Of Communications says that is in discussions with a number of telecoms companies that have expressed an interest in the government’s proposed state-subsidised broadband roll-out. It said these companies include Eircom, BT Ireland, Enet, Imagine, the ESB-Vodafone joint broadband venture and the Wireless Internet Service Provider Group which represents 33 small broadband providers around the country.

yuloni · 19-03-2015 12:21am

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roast · 19-03-2015 1:19am

yuloni wrote: »

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Well spotted.

Based on the area around my home, it looks like the low voltage lines aren't marked (I suppose because the LV network is constantly subject to change) but the MV and HV lines are. Good indication of how backhaul will be routed if it is ESB that will be running with the plan.

yuloni · 19-03-2015 1:41am

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jd · 19-03-2015 9:53am

KOR101 wrote: »

And, some discouraging info....

Despite prioritising fibre, the Department will also consider wireless broadband delivery, according to its officials. It is to inspect a high speed “fixed wireless pilot project” in the coming months, say officials..

I presume they are talking about Chinese broadband firm Wuhan Vstar running wireless trials in rural areas

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/business/ultrahigh-broadband-speed-trials-in-taghmon-30979920.html

Ultra-high speed broadband could be on its way to rural Wexford at last, with Taghmon leading the charge.

A three-month technical trial testing a new service to rural areas will begin in Taghmon within months.

Formal agreement on the trial was signed between Wexford Local Development and Chinese broadband firm Wuhan Vstar earlier this month.

MajesticDonkey · 19-03-2015 10:40am

Even the slightest mention of fixed wireless leads me to believe that it's already decided that this is what will be used in the NBP. As usual, the government cutting corners and incapable of doing the job right the first time. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Johnboy1951 · 19-03-2015 10:44am

Maybe I missed an answer to this and if so apologies .....

On the High Speed Broadband map 2016 here
http://dcenr.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=4348aad18c67491ead2e49444d898062

if one looks at the blue areas, quite a lot of them are circular, implying to me the area covered by a wireless mast.

I expect the circles are just an indication that some commercial entity will get to the general area, as yet unmapped, and not an indication of a wireless transmission point.

Anyone know for definite?

MBSnr · 19-03-2015 10:50am

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Maybe I missed an answer to this and if so apologies .....

On the High Speed Broadband map 2016 here
http://dcenr.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=4348aad18c67491ead2e49444d898062

if one looks at the blue areas, quite a lot of them are circular, implying to me the area covered by a wireless mast.

I expect the circles are just an indication that some commercial entity will get to the general area, as yet unmapped, and not an indication of a wireless transmission point.

Anyone know for definite?

Both the closest areas on that map to me are due to get VDSL from the exchange plus some cabs. The cab areas are mapped and the blue map circle is just a representation of the area likely to be covered by the exchange being VDSL enabled. The exchange is in the centre of the circle. That may not be true of all but it is for the few I checked.

ItHurtsWhenIP · 19-03-2015 11:08am

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Maybe I missed an answer to this and if so apologies .....

On the High Speed Broadband map 2016 here
http://dcenr.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=4348aad18c67491ead2e49444d898062

if one looks at the blue areas, quite a lot of them are circular, implying to me the area covered by a wireless mast.

I expect the circles are just an indication that some commercial entity will get to the general area, as yet unmapped, and not an indication of a wireless transmission point.

Anyone know for definite?

MBSnr wrote: »

Both the closest areas on that map to me are due to get VDSL from the exchange plus some cabs. The cab areas are mapped and the blue map circle is just a representation of the area likely to be covered by the exchange being VDSL enabled. The exchange is in the centre of the circle. That may not be true of all but it is for the few I checked.

My village is represented by blue shading properly outlining the village, whereas our neighbouring village is a blue blob. My understanding is that this only represents where they have not carried out proper mapping exercise to show the extent of the commercial operators coverage.

Both villages are due to be eFibred by the end of 2015.

ItHurtsWhenIP · 19-03-2015 11:08am

jd wrote: »

I presume they are talking about Chinese broadband firm Wuhan Vstar running wireless trials in rural areas

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/business/ultrahigh-broadband-speed-trials-in-taghmon-30979920.html

Yep - I reckon that's them alright.

mass_debater · 19-03-2015 11:41am

If an area in the map is blue some provider have committed to having 30mbit+ in the near future

KOR101 · 19-03-2015 2:27pm

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Even the slightest mention of fixed wireless leads me to believe that it's already decided that this is what will be used in the NBP. As usual, the government cutting corners and incapable of doing the job right the first time. Hopefully I'm wrong.

But won't they just issue a contract specifying that every house in the mapped areas must be provided with the 30mbit objective. Then, the winner will be able to choose how to provide it.

It's a pity that their objective is already looking so unambitious. Either way, the fibre is coming a lot closer to the home.

MajesticDonkey · 19-03-2015 2:50pm

KOR101 wrote: »

But won't they just issue a contract specifying that every house in the mapped areas must be provided with the 30mbit objective. Then, the winner will be able to choose how to provide it.

Yeah, that's essentially what happened with Three and the NBS, and look how that turned out!

yuloni · 19-03-2015 5:55pm

This post has been deleted.

jd · 19-03-2015 6:01pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They seem to be in a few areas around the country - partnering with LEADER

Twelve LEADER companies around the country will organise pilot trials of next generation access broadband coverage, in partnership with Chinese broadband firm Wuhan Vstar.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/news/rural-groups-move-to-end-digital-isolation-313333.html

KOR101 · 19-03-2015 6:23pm

The mention of the Wireless Internet Service Provider Group also has me very nervous. Ireland being Ireland and all that........

mass_debater · 19-03-2015 6:48pm

KOR101 wrote: »

The mention of the Wireless Internet Service Provider Group also has me very nervous. Ireland being Ireland and all that........

Why? There are plenty if under utilised 3.6ghz licenses out there, perfect for 30/30 for the very rural

KOR101 · 19-03-2015 7:26pm

mass_debater wrote: »

Why? There are plenty if under utilised 3.6ghz licenses out there, perfect for 30/30 for the very rural

FTTH has the potential to be a once and for all solution. 30/30 wireless is only a temporary fix. Also, those small wireless providers are more likely to under-deliver than the likes of the ESB. I have a bad feeling that the government will not want to sign a death sentence for those companies.

mass_debater · 19-03-2015 7:33pm

KOR101 wrote: »

I have a bad feeling that the government will not want to sign a death sentence for those companies.

Nor should they, they've been kicked in the teeth once with the farce that was the NBS. One of the biggest hindrance to WISPS is not the cost of the gear but the restrictions and ridiculous pricing of annual licence fees while being miles away from fibre. Comreg have been milking them dry

KOR101 · 19-03-2015 9:08pm

I think a big problem is that the government is looking for EU backing for the programme. This is much easier if they stick to the EU objective of 30mbits. They can hardly ask the EU for funding for far higher than that.

They may hear the arguments in favour of FTTH but imagine, politician like, that they will be able to get away with just paying lip service to it. It has all the makings of a potential mess, which is great pity because full on FTTH would probably NOT be all that much more expensive, and would be a great unique /marketing point for Ireland to IT multinationals.

bk · 20-03-2015 12:44pm

Problem with just barely making 30mb/s with wireless versus doing FTTH, is that we will be back talking about the urban/rural divide in 5 years time and we will then have yet another NBP!

I'll tell you now, within 2 years the majority of urban Ireland will have access to at least one service operating at 1Gb/s!

While 30mb/s may well be fine for peoples expected needs for the next 5 years or so, it will very quickly become inadequate as the rest of Ireland and the world speeds far ahead. The problem is wireless technology simply won't scale up to higher speeds, 30Mb/s for national coverage is pushing the limits as is.

With FTTH you really are putting in place the infrastructure that is good for the next 50 years. Not only would it give 1Gb/s today, but can relatively easily be upgraded in future as needs increase to 10 and even 40Gb/s!

Wireless is possibly good for the next 5 years, FTTH is good for the next 50.

xxyyzz · 20-03-2015 12:47pm

Is this just to get them over the next election hump?

Hopefully not. I was talking to someone who works in telecoms infrastructure recently and he said they are spinning out fibre over the esb power cables at the moment so fingers crossed.

rob808 · 20-03-2015 12:58pm

xxyyzz wrote: »

Is this just to get them over the next election hump?

Hopefully not. I was talking to someone who works in telecoms infrastructure recently and he said they are spinning out fibre over the esb power cables at the moment so fingers crossed.

Yea that just for urban areas so rural left in back seat again in broadband speeds can't really understand it 512million and then winning bidder or bidders match it they could easily do FTTH and be finally be done and won't have to keep going back plus ireland could be the hub for the EU.That would bring billions in for ireland and jobs.

Cuddlesworth · 20-03-2015 1:17pm

bk wrote: »

Problem with just barely making 30mb/s with wireless versus doing FTTH, is that we will be back talking about the urban/rural divide in 5 years time and we will then have yet another NBP!

I'll tell you now, within 2 years the majority of urban Ireland will have access to at least one service operating at 1Gb/s!

While 30mb/s may well be fine for peoples expected needs for the next 5 years or so, it will very quickly become inadequate as the rest of Ireland and the world speeds far ahead. The problem is wireless technology simply won't scale up to higher speeds, 30Mb/s for national coverage is pushing the limits as is.

With FTTH you really are putting in place the infrastructure that is good for the next 50 years. Not only would it give 1Gb/s today, but can relatively easily be upgraded in future as needs increase to 10 and even 40Gb/s!

Wireless is possibly good for the next 5 years, FTTH is good for the next 50.

Fixed wireless can work(not LTE). Our internal operators are conveniently ignoring it.

I'd be impressed if the government used fibre to the home as a carrot on the stick to the rural population to get them to start condensing back into towns again rather then the huge ribbon development that is still ongoing.

bk · 20-03-2015 2:09pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Fixed wireless can work(not LTE). Our internal operators are conveniently ignoring it.

Fixed wireless can work. But when you need to cover 500,000 premises spread over an entire country, it can get very expensive, very quickly.

That is an awful lot of radio towers on the top of lots of high hills and lots of expensive, radio gear.

Soon you will find that it costs about the same as FTTH to the majority of people. And it still won't scale to higher speeds, unless you start looking at very expensive enterprise level point to point links.

FWA might be necessary to reach the odd house on top of a hill or some houses on an island, but it shouldn't be used for the majority of rural homes.

ED E · 20-03-2015 3:14pm

Theres issues getting planning permission for little green inconspicuous VDSL cabinets because of the NIMBY crowd, how do you think hundreds of masts will get on? "But joe, but joe, the radiation will hurt my babies" etc along with them being eye sores.

Using existing GSM/UMTS sites as hubs for high spec FWA where FTTH is totally non viable. Everywhere else its gotta be FTTH or shoot ourselves in the foot.

mass_debater · 20-03-2015 3:15pm

I don't think anyone is saying it should be fixed wireless, fixed wireless should be used as a stopgap to eventual fibre in any plan.

Johnboy1951 · 20-03-2015 5:57pm

ED E wrote: »

Theres issues getting planning permission for little green inconspicuous VDSL cabinets because of the NIMBY crowd, how do you think hundreds of masts will get on? "But joe, but joe, the radiation will hurt my babies" etc along with them being eye sores.

Using existing GSM/UMTS sites as hubs for high spec FWA where FTTH is totally non viable. Everywhere else its gotta be FTTH or shoot ourselves in the foot.

Wouldn't be the first time that foot got shot!

grbear · 21-03-2015 12:48pm

mass_debater wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying it should be fixed wireless, fixed wireless should be used as a stopgap to eventual fibre in any plan.

What does using wireless as a stopgap achieve other than making things more expensive?
I'm on a 3G connection at the moment so going to a good fixed wireless connection would be a major improvement but I'd prefer to see this scheme focused exclusively on achieving FTTH for as many people as possible. Rolling out fixed wireless services with a planned lifespan of 2-3 years doesn't seem like a good use of resources.

mass_debater · 21-03-2015 12:54pm

grbear wrote: »

What does using wireless as a stopgap achieve other than making things more expensive?
I'm on a 3G connection at the moment so going to a good fixed wireless connection would be a major improvement but I'd prefer to see this scheme focused exclusively on achieving FTTH for as many people as possible. Rolling out fixed wireless services with a planned lifespan of 2-3 years doesn't seem like a good use of resources.

What if getting to everyone was going to take 10-15 years?

bk · 21-03-2015 12:59pm

mass_debater wrote: »

What if getting to everyone was going to take many years?

Honestly, I think we would still be better biting the bullet and just ploughing ahead with FTTH. It wouldn't take more then 5 years anyway.

The problem with using wireless first is that even it will take a two or more years anyway and when done the government, being the government will simply say job done, stop complaining now and will likely leave people stuck on 30Mb/s wireless for the next 10 years until the complaints get loud enough again.

If the government go for an intermediate plan, I've zero confidence that they will continue with the long term plan, instead putting it off for as long as possible.

murphaph · 21-03-2015 8:07pm

I honestly can't see rolling out a complete replacement of copper in rural areas as being complete in 5 years. It's a mammoth task.

mass_debater · 21-03-2015 8:15pm

murphaph wrote: »

I honestly can't see rolling out a complete replacement of copper in rural areas as being complete in 5 years. It's a mammoth task.

Yeah, more like 10-15 IMO

rob808 · 21-03-2015 9:00pm

mass_debater wrote: »

Yeah, more like 10-15 IMO

It be worth it in the end,fixed wireless isn't the answer short term yes but long term no there just throwing away tax payer money instead of just doing it right which is FTTH I say 10 years Max.

KOR101 · 22-03-2015 9:47am

rob808 wrote: »

It be worth it in the end,fixed wireless isn't the answer short term yes but long term no there just throwing away tax payer money instead of just doing it right which is FTTH I say 10 years Max.

I suppose, given that the plan has only ever had a 30mbit objective, the hope would be that when they run the numbers, it is actually cheaper to do FTTH than wireless, even in the short run. Is there any chance of that?

bk · 22-03-2015 11:44am

KOR101 wrote: »

I suppose, given that the plan has only ever had a 30mbit objective, the hope would be that when they run the numbers, it is actually cheaper to do FTTH than wireless, even in the short run. Is there any chance of that?

Actually that is what Eircoms report into the issue found.

While it might not be quiet as cheap up front (capex), the ongoing operating costs (opex) of FTTH are much lower then wireless.

With wireless you have to build towers, pay for the rent of the land they sit on, power them, etc. This all gets expensive very fast.

KOR101 · 24-03-2015 11:21am

Segment on RTE's Monday Today With Sean O'Rourke. It begins with some interviews with people in Quin, Co. Clare. Then Alex White is interviewed.

Nothing particularly new. The pessimism in Quin is exactly what I find in Kerry. People have been really scarred by their experience to date. The pessimism about Eircom's FTTC programme (completely unjustified I think) is also something I hear a lot.

Starts at about 1:16

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/today-with-sean-o-rourke/programmes/2015/0323/689074-today-with-sean-o-rourke-monday-23-march-2015/

Johnboy1951 · 24-03-2015 12:42pm

Thanks for that link.

So only going out to tender at the end of this year ... 2015

They hope to have an agreement in place with some provider/s to begin roll out By June 2016

It is estimated to be a five year roll out ... so by June 2021 everyone should have 'high speed broadband' (whatever that might mean).

Min White expects the roll out to complete by the end of 2020

This 5 year roll out is to provide broadband to some 30% of the population who are spread across 96% of the land area.

I guess all of us outside the 'commercially provided areas' will just have to sit back and wait for a long time yet.

KOR101 · 24-03-2015 3:52pm

On reflection, the mention of having €70m of committed funds already is interesting. A 5-year plan at €70 a year adds up to the €355m that Adrian Weckler referred to.

Implies maybe a degree of penny pinching that doesn't augur well. Best if it goes to a single contractor, who may be driven to implement FTTH for purely commercial reasons.

rob808 · 24-03-2015 11:30pm

KOR101 wrote: »

On reflection, the mention of having €70m of committed funds already is interesting. A 5-year plan at €70 a year adds up to the €355m that Adrian Weckler referred to.

Implies maybe a degree of penny pinching that doesn't augur well. Best if it goes to a single contractor, who may be driven to implement FTTH for purely commercial reasons.

Yea a single contractor would be best two would be bad and 355m are they kidding 512m would do it and they wouldn't have to keep revisiting it.

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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