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20-01-2020, 18:00   #1
kermitpwee
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License expired, substitution in and now FCA2!

Hi all my License was to expire on the 9/01/20. I put in a substitution on the 2/12/19. I didn't hear anything back till today.

They have said they can't do my substitution as my license has expired. The only way out is to cancel my expired License with the FCA2 form and make a new application for the firearm that I have put the substitution in for.

Is this the case? Should I really have to cancel and then reapply.

They said this is the only way as the computer wont allow anything else.

Any help greatly appreciated.
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20-01-2020, 18:07   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kermitpwee View Post
Hi all my License was to expire on the 9/01/20. I put in a substitution on the 2/12/19. I didn't hear anything back till today.

They have said they can't do my substitution as my license has expired.
You now know this, but you cannot substitute a license within 3 months of the renewal of your current license so that is why they refused to do the sub. If your license is up for renewal within 3 months of when you plan to sub you must first go ahead and renew the current license for the current firearm and only when you get the new license can you substitute to the new firearm.

Quote:
The only way out is to cancel my expired License with the FCA2 form and make a new application for the firearm that I have put the substitution in for.
You cannot cancel an expired license. Its expired. As in no longer valid and meaning you are now in possession of an unlicensed firearm.

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Is this the case? Should I really have to cancel and then reapply.
No.

You simply re-apply. You can do this in two ways.
  1. Fill in your FCR which you should have received in the post, based on the dates you supplied, on 9th October 2019. Fill it in and send it back.
  2. If they won't accept the FCR then you speak to yor FO and use an FCA1 to apply all over again as if its a new application for a new firearm.

There is a third option, but it is actually a subset of options 1 above. If you lost or did not receive the FCR ask for it to be reprinted and sent out again. Fill it out as per option 1.

If you have already gotten the FCR, filled it in and returned it then its a moot point as the renewal in under way, but judging by what you've said this has not happened.
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20-01-2020, 19:02   #3
kermitpwee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cass View Post
You now know this, but you cannot substitute a license within 3 months of the renewal of your current license so that is why they refused to do the sub. If your license is up for renewal within 3 months of when you plan to sub you must first go ahead and renew the current license for the current firearm and only when you get the new license can you substitute to the new firearm.


You cannot cancel an expired license. Its expired. As in no longer valid and meaning you are now in possession of an unlicensed firearm.


No.

You simply re-apply. You can do this in two ways.
  1. Fill in your FCR which you should have received in the post, based on the dates you supplied, on 9th October 2019. Fill it in and send it back.
  2. If they won't accept the FCR then you speak to yor FO and use an FCA1 to apply all over again as if its a new application for a new firearm.

There is a third option, but it is actually a subset of options 1 above. If you lost or did not receive the FCR ask for it to be reprinted and sent out again. Fill it out as per option 1.

If you have already gotten the FCR, filled it in and returned it then its a moot point as the renewal in under way, but judging by what you've said this has not happened.
Thank you so much. A very informative reply. I didn't realise I couldn't apply for a sub in the last 3 months. That's where I went wrong initially. My own gun is handed into a firearms dealer so Im OK on that front.
Thanks again
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20-01-2020, 19:47   #4
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Did you get the FCR? If so have you filled it in and returned it?
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21-01-2020, 22:22   #5
kermitpwee
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Did you get the FCR? If so have you filled it in and returned it?
Yes I have it. I didn't hand it in.

When I went in with the substitution I explained to the officer on duty that my license was to expire in 5 weeks he(i didn't know I couldn't sub in the last 3 months) said put in the sub and it will go through and you will get the renewal out for your license with the new firearm on it.
Unfortunately this officer wasn't aware of the rules(i know I should know!) and that is how it panned out.

Not too worry I am going in tomorrow and they said they would help me to get it sorted.
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22-01-2020, 19:17   #6
Lmklad
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The easiest thing to do is cancel your current expired license with an FCA2 and a copy of the receipt from the dealer and just apply for a new licence FCA1 for the new firearm.

The alternative is the renew your current cert then when it arrives do a substitution which will take much longer.
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22-01-2020, 22:41   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lmklad View Post
The easiest thing to do is cancel your current expired license with an FCA2 ...........
You cannot cancel an expired license. Expired means just that, as in no longer valid.
Quote:
The alternative is the renew your current cert then when it arrives do a substitution which will take much longer.
As i said above you must renew your current license and then sub it. There is no alternative, this must be done.

Not trying to sound harsh, but for anyone else in the same position reading this thread there is only one option. Renew first, then sub.

The term renewal is false and misleading even though its in the name of the form and most people use it. The legal bit says you are actually re-applying for the license. As this can take up to three months you must, and this is said on the front of the FCR, submit your "renewal" three months prior to the expiry of your current license.

By default any substitution cannot be done within this three month period. Now having said that if you renew and its done within a week then great, you sub it immediately after you get the new license. So the three month "non sub" rule is flexible in terms of it not being a specifically named three month period, but merely how long until you get your renewal back until you can apply for the sub.
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22-01-2020, 22:46   #8
Lmklad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cass View Post
You cannot cancel an expired license. Expired means just that, as in no longer valid.


As i said above you must renew your current license and then sub it. There is no alternative, this must be done.

Not trying to sound harsh, but for anyone else in the same position reading this thread there is only one option. Renew first, then sub.

The term renewal is false and misleading even though its in the name of the form and most people use it. The legal bit says you are actually re-applying for the license. As this can take up to three months you must, and this is said on the front of the FCR, submit your "renewal" three months prior to the expiry of your current license.

By default any substitution cannot be done within this three month period. Now having said that if you renew and its done within a week then great, you sub it immediately after you get the new license. So the three month "non sub" rule is flexible in terms of it not being a specifically named three month period, but merely how long until you get your renewal back until you can apply for the sub.
I hate to correct you but you’re wrong. Once a certificate is granted it remains on the system. If it is renewed it stays live. If it expires it still remains on the system and must be renewed or cancelled. I used to be an FO. If the OP does not renew or cancel this certificate the assumption will be that he is in possession of an unlicensed firearm. The certificate, even if expired, must be cancelled to show continuation of the firearm and update its new location on PULSE.
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22-01-2020, 23:03   #9
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Originally Posted by Lmklad View Post
I hate to correct you but you’re wrong.
Don't be. If i'm wrong call me on it, or better still educate me.
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I used to be an FO
That right there means you know more than i do. I am working on what was told to me by my FO as i went through something similar only this week however in my case i sent back the FCR, blank, saying no longer in possession and not renewing. I was not asked to cancel my, now expired, license but was asked to submit a letter from the RFD to show i had the gun handed in. IOW not in possession of it.
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Once a certificate is granted it remains on the system.
Yup. I know this again from first hand experience having been asked last year where a gun i owned/licensed over 7 years ago was even though i subbed the license and sold the gun 5 years ago.
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If it is renewed it stays live.
Makes sense.
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If it expires it still remains on the system and must be renewed or cancelled.
Againn makes sense, but I thought the FCR sent back and marked or a letter attached to say it was not being renewed would suffice, also with an RFDs letter stating the gun is his possession? IOW no need for an FCA2?
Quote:
If the OP does not renew or cancel this certificate the assumption will be that he is in possession of an unlicensed firearm.
As with my example above my situation related to a pistol i licensed, but never took possession off. The license was live until July of last year when the FCr arrived out. I done as i said above and sent it back with RFD letter and "not renewing" basically wrote on it. Garda arrives out this week asking where the pistol is as its still on PULSE as being in my possession with no license.

Quote:
The certificate, even if expired, must be cancelled to show continuation of the firearm and update its new location on PULSE.
Thank you for your insight and clarification/correction.

BTW i owe you an apology. I did not correctly read your post above. When i seen FCA2 and cancel i read, but did not digest the rest of the post and having done so now i see where you're coming from and it is a much better and quicker solution. Let the license expire fully by cancelling it and just license the new gun.

I have done the renew and sub myself based on advice by my FO and never thought for one second to cancel and apply new. To me renewing and subbing was better because i never thought of your method and secondly i believed renewing was "easier" than a new application and the following sub was just a formality.

So apologies to the OP but while my way works, the method laid out by LmkLad is a better option, faster and frankly less hassle.
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22-01-2020, 23:13   #10
Lmklad
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No worries at all. The issue with many FOs is that they are given the portfolio without any proper training. What you were advised will work but it sooo much longer and unnecessary. By returning your FCR and saying you’re not renewing is a defacto FCA2 (cancellation) and your FO has requested you to provide the receipt from the dealer as proof. I personally preferred to do it on the FCA2 as it’s your proof you cancelled it.

The system is relatively simple (sort of) but rule of thumb, if you sell / dispose of a firearm and you’re not subbing then it must be cancelled. Expired for an FO means not renewed rather then cancelled.
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