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How relevant to you is the controversy over feminism?

12467…10

Comments

  • #152
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/s...tion-1.3563784

    I feel sick. Equality my arse.


  • #153
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    iptba wrote: »
    The aim seems to be in some cases more to help women than gender equality per se.

    If one wants to use percentages, which are a blunt measure, the denominator matters. For example, if two women apply for a position and one gets it, while 10 men apply for a position and one gets it, the outcomes may suggest equal results, but a smaller percentage of men who applied got the position than the percentage of women who applied.

    I'm going to ask a - probably - dumb question here.

    1. Reading about "gender blind" and "colour blind" casting in theatre. It's a great thing they say that a black man can play Shylock; a white woman can play Othello etc etc etc.

    2. Scarlett Johannsen is made to withdraw from a film playing a trans woman; a white actress is forced to quit West Side Story etc etc. Only a trans womamn can play similar; only a Latina actress can play Maria...

    I know I'm asking to tap into the idiotic liberal mindset but genuinely how can they square these two views ???


  • #154
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It's a white sensitive colour blindness. It's part of the oppressed/oppressor binary dynamic popular in such circles. The White heterosexual man, regardless of personal status is at the very top of the hierarchy of oppressors and everyone else is filed under the oppressed label. Whether they want to be or not. The White heterosexual woman can be included in this if she's seen to be somehow standing in the way of the long list of oppressed - but of course much lower down as feminism was and is almost exclusively a middle class White woman thing. So it's fine if a Latina lass(oppressed) plays Desdemona, but not fine if a White lass plays Maria(oppressor). That's how that circle gets squared.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #155
    Rory28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Rory28


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    I'm going to ask a - probably - dumb question here.

    1. Reading about "gender blind" and "colour blind" casting in theatre. It's a great thing they say that a black man can play Shylock; a white woman can play Othello etc etc etc.

    2. Scarlett Johannsen is made to withdraw from a film playing a trans woman; a white actress is forced to quit West Side Story etc etc. Only a trans womamn can play similar; only a Latina actress can play Maria...

    I know I'm asking to tap into the idiotic liberal mindset but genuinely how can they square these two views ???

    The Scarlett Johannsen one is crazy. Is there a single Trans actor out there that can pull the eyeballs that Scarlett could? Well I hope they make a Black Widow movie instead. The prejudiced hypocrites.


  • #156
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Wibbs wrote: »
    It's a white sensitive colour blindness. It's part of the oppressed/oppressor binary dynamic popular in such circles. The White heterosexual man, regardless of personal status is at the very top of the hierarchy of oppressors and everyone else is filed under the oppressed label. Whether they want to be or not. The White heterosexual woman can be included in this if she's seen to be somehow standing in the way of the long list of oppressed - but of course much lower down as feminism was and is almost exclusively a middle class White woman thing. So it's fine if a Latina lass(oppressed) plays Desdemona, but not fine if a White lass plays Maria(oppressor). That's how that circle gets squared.

    Ah so good old fashioned double standards ??

    If they just said that we'd have a tad more respect!


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  • #157
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Wibbs wrote: »
    It's a white sensitive colour blindness. It's part of the oppressed/oppressor binary dynamic popular in such circles. The White heterosexual man, regardless of personal status is at the very top of the hierarchy of oppressors and everyone else is filed under the oppressed label. Whether they want to be or not. The White heterosexual woman can be included in this if she's seen to be somehow standing in the way of the long list of oppressed - but of course much lower down as feminism was and is almost exclusively a middle class White woman thing. So it's fine if a Latina lass(oppressed) plays Desdemona, but not fine if a White lass plays Maria(oppressor). That's how that circle gets squared.

    Quick check - I'm a working class heterosexual (unless Shakira asks!) Irishwoman - who grew up poor. Not much in the looks stake if that's a variable ??

    How far up the oppression hit parade do I go ????


  • #158
    KrustyUCC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,043 ✭✭✭KrustyUCC


    We'll you get points taken off for being white but you're oppressed thanks to misogyny

    Then again you're a white woman so you wouldn't get what black women have to go through

    http://www.oakpark.com/News/Articles/3-27-2018/Privilege-and-white-female-allies-/

    "But I believe we can point out the white privilege of white women while also acknowledging that all of us as women have shared the experience of oppression because of our gender.

    However, we must acknowledge the sliding scale of that oppression. We must recognize that women of color experience a greater level of oppression than our white counterparts because of our race or ethnicity. Confronting that reality should not divide us. In fact, not confronting it perpetuates the system that we are all trying to combat, an oppressive system that thrives on women being divided. "

    You prob would have got bonus points for identifying on the LGBTQIA+ scale seeing as you're attracted to Shakira (good call btw lol)


  • #159
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    KrustyUCC wrote: »
    We'll you get points taken off for being white but you're oppressed thanks to misogyny

    Then again you're a white woman so you wouldn't get what black women have to go through

    http://www.oakpark.com/News/Articles/3-27-2018/Privilege-and-white-female-allies-/

    "But I believe we can point out the white privilege of white women while also acknowledging that all of us as women have shared the experience of oppression because of our gender.

    However, we must acknowledge the sliding scale of that oppression. We must recognize that women of color experience a greater level of oppression than our white counterparts because of our race or ethnicity. Confronting that reality should not divide us. In fact, not confronting it perpetuates the system that we are all trying to combat, an oppressive system that thrives on women being divided. "

    You prob would have got bonus points for identifying on the LGBTQIA+ scale seeing as you're attracted to Shakira (good call btw lol)

    She's a fine leg on her as the mammy was fond of saying!!!!


  • #160
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    iptba wrote: »
    The aim seems to be in some cases more to help women than gender equality per se.

    If one wants to use percentages, which are a blunt measure, the denominator matters. For example, if two women apply for a position and one gets it, while 10 men apply for a position and one gets it, the outcomes may suggest equal results, but a smaller percentage of men who applied got the position than the percentage of women who applied.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/gender-equality-and-irish-theatre-1.3566900

    Sir, – You reported on July 8th about the gender equality campaign agreed to by ten Irish theatres and arts festivals, which will ensure that there will be gender-blind readings and that half of all future plays commissioned by theatres will be written by women.
    I agree with the former but not the latter.
    Gender blind readings are positive but agreeing to stage 50 per cent of accepted plays read based on the fact that the writer is female is discriminatory and sexist. The gender of the playwright will be given more importance than the quality of the writing. To achieve a 50 per cent quota, well-written plays by men may be rejected in favour of lesser-quality plays written by women. – Yours, etc,


  • #161
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Quick check - I'm a working class heterosexual (unless Shakira asks!) Irishwoman - who grew up poor. Not much in the looks stake if that's a variable ??

    How far up the oppression hit parade do I go ????

    If my wife had a night of passion with Shakira I'd have to let that one slide. Provided I got to watch of course :D


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  • #162
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    iptba wrote: »
    Sir, – You reported on July 8th about the gender equality campaign agreed to by ten Irish theatres and arts festivals, which will ensure that there will be gender-blind readings and that half of all future plays commissioned by theatres will be written by women.
    I agree with the former but not the latter.
    Gender blind readings are positive but agreeing to stage 50 per cent of accepted plays read based on the fact that the writer is female is discriminatory and sexist. The gender of the playwright will be given more importance than the quality of the writing. To achieve a 50 per cent quota, well-written plays by men may be rejected in favour of lesser-quality plays written by women. – Yours, etc,


    That's the gigantic problem with "quotas", especially when applied in fields and activities that happen to have a natural imbalance to them in terms of participation.



    Take IT, an historically "male dominated" environment and one often used as an example of a "bastion of patriarchy". Truth is, women simply don't flock to study Computer Science and related subject en masse, at least not nearly as much as men do. Whenever we have technical positions open at work, the CVs getting in are almost invariably 90% men / 10% women.


    Yet, many companies have or are introducing quotas, in some cases very aggressively, with "at least 50% hires have to be women" policies. It should be easy to see the fallacy there, when the source pool is 90/10...


  • #163
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    That's the gigantic problem with "quotas", especially when applied in fields and activities that happen to have a natural imbalance to them in terms of participation.

    Take IT, an historically "male dominated" environment and one often used as an example of a "bastion of patriarchy". Truth is, women simply don't flock to study Computer Science and related subject en masse, at least not nearly as much as men do. Whenever we have technical positions open at work, the CVs getting in are almost invariably 90% men / 10% women.

    Actually you'll find that a lot of women in recent decades do graduate with computer science/engineering degrees, but they just don't go into that industry. Instead, they're far more likely to combine the Degree with a Masters in Business/finance and enter a side area which has higher salaries and more flexibility regarding work hours. If you look at the area of Fintech, women are very well represented.

    The problem with Software Engineering or programming is the focus on deadlines, which most women have little interest in. The combination of the pressure of deadlines, but also the expectation that you will stay late, work the weekends, etc to meet the deadline... And lastly, competition... Programming tends to be a very competitive area.
    Yet, many companies have or are introducing quotas, in some cases very aggressively, with "at least 50% hires have to be women" policies. It should be easy to see the fallacy there, when the source pool is 90/10...

    It's pure PR. They have to introduce the Quotas because it's easy for feminists to label a company as being anti-women. Any "imbalance" is dangerous in this modern world.. regardless of the actual reasons for that imbalance. It doesn't matter that we have anti-discrimination laws, and equality panels abound... because this is not about generating an equal workplace. That was already, for the most part, achieved, and wasn't enough. This is the next step to lift women up.


  • #164
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Actually you'll find that a lot of women in recent decades do graduate with computer science/engineering degrees, but they just don't go into that industry. Instead, they're far more likely to combine the Degree with a Masters in Business/finance and enter a side area which has higher salaries and more flexibility regarding work hours. If you look at the area of Fintech, women are very well represented.


    I'm curious about where this comes from - AFAIK all stats point to only about 20% of Engineering students being women.



    Deleted User wrote: »
    The problem with Software Engineering or programming is the focus on deadlines, which most women have little interest in. The combination of the pressure of deadlines, but also the expectation that you will stay late, work the weekends, etc to meet the deadline... And lastly, competition... Programming tends to be a very competitive area.


    In a nutshell, it's a **** job when it comes to the realm of the supposedly "cushy" ones with a pay that's not nearly as great as many people think, considering it's a job that will most likely give you baldness, obesity, most likely divorce and a bad back.


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's pure PR. They have to introduce the Quotas because it's easy for feminists to label a company as being anti-women. Any "imbalance" is dangerous in this modern world.. regardless of the actual reasons for that imbalance. It doesn't matter that we have anti-discrimination laws, and equality panels abound... because this is not about generating an equal workplace. That was already, for the most part, achieved, and wasn't enough. This is the next step to lift women up.


    Yep, still - makes for very bad decisions at hiring time.


  • #165
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    That's the gigantic problem with "quotas", especially when applied in fields and activities that happen to have a natural imbalance to them in terms of participation.



    Take IT, an historically "male dominated" environment and one often used as an example of a "bastion of patriarchy". Truth is, women simply don't flock to study Computer Science and related subject en masse, at least not nearly as much as men do. Whenever we have technical positions open at work, the CVs getting in are almost invariably 90% men / 10% women.


    Yet, many companies have or are introducing quotas, in some cases very aggressively, with "at least 50% hires have to be women" policies. It should be easy to see the fallacy there, when the source pool is 90/10...
    It's why small companies are often still "problematic". Big companies have the pressure on them so scoop up the female and ethnic minority candidates leaving just the pesky white males for everyone else.


  • #166
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    https://twitter.com/drcolleenmurphy/status/1021856634891644928

    Reminds me of Hillary Clinton's claim:
    Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.
    Though in that case, a case could be made that men have it worse.


  • #167
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,672 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    shudder.... i cant decide if she believes her own guff or not or just like bandwagons so she can peddle her influence

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #168
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    I'm curious about where this comes from - AFAIK all stats point to only about 20% of Engineering students being women.

    I'm going by peer related articles in HBR and other business management magazines. So, mostly related to the US and international companies.

    As for Engineering, I assume you mean software engineering?
    In a nutshell, it's a **** job when it comes to the realm of the supposedly "cushy" ones with a pay that's not nearly as great as many people think, considering it's a job that will most likely give you baldness, obesity, most likely divorce and a bad back.

    There was actually a period around the early 90s where women actually reached something like parity in gender ratios for programming in American specialist companies. However, then came the "app" generation, who are predominately males, and the numbers dropped considerably. At the same time though, if you look in Niche areas where software merges with other disciplines like management, you'll find more women in the roles.

    I tend to point out that we have no shortage of women in many industries like Finance, but nobody complains about that. Nobody is wondering why so many women go into those roles, or the same with Auditing.

    The shortage of women in IT/Software isn't due to discrimination, but interest. Same as the lack of men in teaching shows a difference in preference. Nobody is shouting about that gender "inequality".

    And when we hear about the complaints about the lack of women in upper management positions, we hear suggestions to change the roles to make it easier for women to do the job, and be a "good" mother. These things are essentially incompatible but that won't stop the push... and other men/women
    will have to pick up the slack to cover for these mothers... because mothers are important. Yup. More important than us single or childless people.

    Yep, still - makes for very bad decisions at hiring time.

    Little choice, really. There is simply too much pressure on employers to hire women instead of hiring men.


  • #169
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    iptba wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/drcolleenmurphy/status/1021856634891644928

    Reminds me of Hillary Clinton's claim:

    Though in that case, a case could be made that men have it worse.

    Hang on - so in the feminist mindset, losing a husband is worse than dying ?????


  • #170
    Rory28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭Rory28


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Hang on - so in the feminist mindset, losing a husband is worse than dying ?????

    There is a twisted logic there. I mean if the man is dead is he really in pain? Its complete nonsense tho. I can only imagine the fear those men faced in the final moments.


  • #171
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Rory28 wrote: »
    There is a twisted logic there. I mean if the man is dead is he really in pain? Its complete nonsense tho. I can only imagine the fear those men faced in the final moments.

    I know. My English granddad was in North Africa in WWII and would not talk about it. Other than watching Platoon when it came out and saying "like that love, but drier".


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  • #172
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Rory28 wrote: »
    There is a twisted logic there. I mean if the man is dead is he really in pain? Its complete nonsense tho. I can only imagine the fear those men faced in the final moments.
    And even if you lived, you were often left with physical injuries or mental scars like PTSD.


  • #173
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    I wasn't sure which thread to post this to:
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/swedish-opera-singer-attacks-metoo-mob-mentality-1.3579828
    Swedish opera singer attacks #metoo mob mentality
    Anne Sofie von Otter blames her country’s cultural herd mentality for husband’s suicide
    The 58-year-old resigned in December but the campaign continued against him and in March, while accompanying his wife on a singing tour in Australia, he took his own life.

    Since then an official investigation dismissed the claims against him as unfounded. The Aftonbladet was fined for printing unsubstantiated, anonymous allegations of sexual and physical abuse. All have come too late for Fredriksson and his widow.


  • #174
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Transgender woman dies in men's wing of Direct Provision centre in Galway
    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/transgender-woman-dies-in-mens-wing-of-direct-provision-centre-in-galway-859924.html
    I wonder what happened here that she was not in the women's section. It is interesting to see how quite a proportion of feminists have negative views about transgender women and don't want them in spaces provided for women.


  • #175
    Bobtheman
    Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    Sick of moaning women. Sick of gender quotas . In public sector they are being promoted over men just because they are women. Not all cases but a lot.


  • #176
    tigger123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,521 ✭✭✭tigger123


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    Sick of moaning women. Sick of gender quotas . In public sector they are being promoted over men just because they are women. Not all cases but a lot.

    What source do you have for this? In which department are women being promoted over men?


  • #177
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    tigger123 wrote: »
    What source do you have for this? In which department are women being promoted over men?

    Gender/Diversity Quotas. All you have to do is look at any of the articles which praise the raising of numbers of women in various industries (Arts being a good one) where the numbers of women have increased so much to be higher than men. I wonder did they make new positions just for the women, or did they find a way to replace the males with females for those positions? (The articles never seem to mention that though.) No references to the imbalance of females in certain industries due to the quotas being introduced.

    Also in some cases, "back to work" schemes, which are aimed at women who were out of the workplace due to having children, but to help them to return to the workplace. I've never seen a "back to work" scheme for men outside of the Social welfare initiatives.


  • #178
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    Sick of moaning women. Sick of gender quotas . In public sector they are being promoted over men just because they are women. Not all cases but a lot.

    Now, this one I can't agree with. It's not really "women" who are complaining about the situation. It's Feminists, government officials/politicians, and the media. Most women I know are comfortable with working hard from the bottom upwards, and achieving their positions on their own merits. If they choose to have children, they take that into account, and don't scream at the unfairness of the system... fact is, they tend to rather thankful that they can take advantage of the various job sharing, or maternity related benefits.


  • #179
    tigger123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,521 ✭✭✭tigger123


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Gender/Diversity Quotas. All you have to do is look at any of the articles which praise the raising of numbers of women in various industries (Arts being a good one) where the numbers of women have increased so much to be higher than men. I wonder did they make new positions just for the women, or did they find a way to replace the males with females for those positions? (The articles never seem to mention that though.) No references to the imbalance of females in certain industries due to the quotas being introduced.

    Also in some cases, "back to work" schemes, which are aimed at women who were out of the workplace due to having children, but to help them to return to the workplace. I've never seen a "back to work" scheme for men outside of the Social welfare initiatives.

    None of which answers my question. In which department are women being promoted over men? What Is the source for the claim?


  • #180
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Bobtheman wrote: »
    Sick of moaning women. Sick of gender quotas . In public sector they are being promoted over men just because they are women. Not all cases but a lot.
    Not exactly a published paper, but the Conductor discusses the public sector in these posts:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104498184&postcount=69

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104498658&postcount=74


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  • #181
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    tigger123 wrote: »
    None of which answers my question. In which department are women being promoted over men? What Is the source for the claim?

    Well in my workplace there were three posts up for grabs and the shortlists were all women, either a huge coincidence or something more nefarious.

    My bet is on the latter.


  • #182
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    PlaneSpeeking wrote: »
    Well in my workplace there were three posts up for grabs and the shortlists were all women, either a huge coincidence or something more nefarious.

    My bet is on the latter.

    I think he's looking for signs of discrimination where men are obviously being discriminated against in favor of women. The problem with that though is that we've already been down that road previously (male discrimination of females) and it was cut out as being sexist and unfair. They're not going to repeat the same mistakes by making obvious indications of favor based on gender. (although I think the signs are there but any suggestion of such makes you unreasonable and a woman "hater")

    Now, I can point to all the women's rights initiatives which are both obviously feminist in their mandate (they promote themselves as such) and also have the full backing of the government or "equality" watchdogs/organisations... but that's not going to be obvious enough.

    Same with the articles in the media praising the introduction of quotas in industries which previously had greater numbers of men in positions of authority, but than now the ratios have swung the other way around. Not towards equality, (although it's claimed as such), but where women hold the superior numbers.

    But that's not obvious discrimination against men. Seems obvious to me, when a persons gender (female) gains extra benefits or influence over gaining a position, than a person who is male (and supposedly males over represented in an industry... which makes a mockery of the idea with individualism)


  • #183
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think he's looking for signs of discrimination where men are obviously being discriminated against in favor of women. The problem with that though is that we've already been down that road previously (male discrimination of females) and it was cut out as being sexist and unfair. They're not going to repeat the same mistakes by making obvious indications of favor based on gender.

    Now, I can point to all the women's rights initiatives which are both obviously feminist in their mandate (they promote themselves as such) and also have the full backing of the government or "equality" watchdogs/organisations... but that's not going to be obvious enough.

    Same with the articles in the media praising the introduction of quotas in industries which previously had greater numbers of men in positions of authority, but than now the ratios have swung the other way around. Not towards equality, (although it's claimed as such), but where women hold the superior numbers.

    But that's not obvious discrimination against men. Seems obvious to me, when a persons gender (female) gains extra benefits or influence over gaining a position, than a person who is male (and supposedly males over represented in an industry... which makes a mockery of the idea with individualism)

    All I can see in my place is some very inept female managers and some rather pissed off blokes doing all the team's work!!!

    The "Equality, Diversity and Inclusion Unit" can bask in the glory of their progress, but the staff will suffer.


  • #184
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    What Happens to #MeToo When a Feminist Is the Accused?

    Nimrod Reitman accused his former N.Y.U. graduate school adviser, Avital Ronell, of sexually harassing him, and the university found her responsible. But some leading feminist scholars have supported her in ways that echo the defenses of male harassers.CreditCaitlin Ochs for The New York Times

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/nyregion/sexual-harassment-nyu-female-professor.html
    “Diane Davis, chair of the department of rhetoric at the University of Texas-Austin, who also signed the letter to the university supporting Professor Ronell, said she and her colleagues were particularly disturbed that, as they saw it, Mr. Reitman was using Title IX, a feminist tool, to take down a feminist.“

    From the comments:
    The letter defending Ronell is terrifying in its use and display of raw power to influence, to intimidate and to silence.

    The signatories to the letter represent the Who's Who in the field of literary theory, chairpersons and decision makers in hiring and tenure. The equivalent of such a letter in the #MeToo movement would be, unimaginably, a letter in support of Weinstein signed by every studio head, every powerful agent, the most prominent of A-listers of Hollywood.

    It demonstrates starkly why victims would comply to the abuse and then later remain silent.
    Whether consensual or not, the kind of language the professor used about the student in the emails evidences a wild violation of student/professor boundaries and this professor should certainly be removed. The professor was a mature professional at the time of the behavior and the student in his 20s and without secure employment, a tremendous imbalance of power, the kind well known to induce victims to go along to get along. No more evidence is needed than what was published here to conclude that Reitman was clearly the victim of sexual harassment and it is very telling that the professor’s behavior is being defended.


  • #185
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    I just watched a Euronews piece on Iceland, which supposedly has the highest gender equality rating (still as I recall if there was a bigger gap in favour of women, this wasn't considered gender inequality)

    It mentioned that a law was brought in this year that men and women had to be paid the same https://www.independent.ie/world-news/made-in-reykjavik-iceland-imposes-gender-pay-equality-laws-on-all-employers-36458914.html.

    The programme brought us into a company, IKEA, where we are told, the logistics department was all-male previously and now it's all female.

    It then discussed that there was legislation that there had to be equality on boards of companies. It was said that they are finding it difficult to find women who want to be on the boards.

    In education, gender studies is compulsory in 27 of the 33 high schools. The teacher seemed like a feminist. She said that they have the opportunity to "mould minds".

    Then we are brought to a kindergarten. For most of the day, children are kept separate in single sex groups. The activities and toys are gender-neutral.


  • #186
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    From today's Irish Times:
    #MeToo activist Asia Argento settles own sexual assault complaint
    Italian actor accused of sexually assaulting then 17-year-old actor and musician

    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/metoo-activist-asia-argento-settles-own-sexual-assault-complaint-1.3601808
    ---
    But in the months that followed her revelations about Weinstein last October, Argento quietly arranged to pay $380,000 to her own accuser: Jimmy Bennett, a young actor and rock musician who said she had sexually assaulted him in a California hotel room years earlier, when he was only two months past his 17th birthday. She was 37. The age of consent in California is 18.

    ---
    The fallout from “a sexual battery” was so traumatic that it hindered Bennett’s work and income and threatened his mental health, according to a notice of intent to sue that his lawyer sent in November to Richard Hofstetter, Bourdain’s longtime lawyer, who was also representing Argento at the time.

    ---
    For Bennett, seeing Argento present herself as a victim of sexual assault was too much to bear, his lawyer wrote, and called up memories of their hotel reunion. “His feelings about that day were brought to the forefront recently when Ms Argento took the spotlight as one of the many victims of Harvey Weinstein,” Sattro wrote in the notice of intent to sue.


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  • #187
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    Quite a bit of controversy that's causing.

    Not sure if this is true - the same "innocent until proven guilty" approach MUST be applied in all cases; I'll be curious to see what the reactions will be should the allegations be proven to be real - I anticipate an "emotional trauma" angle.


  • #188
    Bootlegger
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25 ✭Bootlegger


    H3llR4iser wrote: »
    Quite a bit of controversy that's causing.

    Not sure if this is true - the same "innocent until proven guilty" approach MUST be applied in all cases; I'll be curious to see what the reactions will be should the allegations be proven to be real - I anticipate an "emotional trauma" angle.

    'Innocent until proven guilty' never applied to any of the accused men in the metoo witch hunt. There have been suicides from this.

    When I first heard this I did the stereotypical 'semi attractive cougar gives young guy the ride? Nice!' but having read up on it, she's known him since he was 7!

    Her career should be over.


  • #189
    LostinBlanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    Bootlegger wrote: »
    'Innocent until proven guilty' never applied to any of the accused men in the metoo witch hunt. There has been suicides from this.

    When I first heard this I did the stereotypical 'semi attractive cougar gives young guy the ride? Nice!' but having read up on it, she's known him since he was 7!

    Her career should be over.

    Exactly, I just came on here to post this. Grooming anyone? If the genders were reversed can we imagine what the media reaction would be?

    Of course we know that there will be no similar reaction in this case. I’d love be to be proved wrong, but I wouldn’t hold out much hope.


  • #190
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    Bootlegger wrote: »
    'Innocent until proven guilty' never applied to any of the accused men in the metoo witch hunt. There has been suicides from this.

    That was precisely my point...


  • #191
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Bootlegger wrote: »
    'Innocent until proven guilty' never applied to any of the accused men in the metoo witch hunt. There has been suicides from this.

    When I first heard this I did the stereotypical 'semi attractive cougar gives young guy the ride? Nice!' but having read up on it, she's known him since he was 7!

    Her career should be over.

    most of the stories use 'groomed' 'seduced' not straight up raped the guy, say it papers say rapist in a story talking about women, they exist.


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  • #192
    Bootlegger
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25 ✭Bootlegger


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    most of the stories use 'groomed' 'seduced' not straight up raped the guy, say it papers say rapist in a story talking about women, they exist.

    The media is in full on damage limitation mode on this.


  • #193
    H3llR4iser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,028 ✭✭✭H3llR4iser


    Bootlegger wrote: »
    The media is in full on damage limitation mode on this.

    Yes, in a nutshell they have no idea what to say. They've been throwing one man after the other under the proverbial bus for not so much as even being accused of harassing somebody, but for merely refusing to join the chorus - now, they are threading the waters of caution. How convenient.

    From what I'm seeing around the 'netz, however, the risk here is another one - is that the "stupid angry internet people" will make a vengeful mess of this.

    The fact is that Asia Argento is objectively somebody who's very easy to dislike; Especially in Italy, the vast majority of people deem her to be a talentless, derangedly arrogant lunatic whose biggest achievement is that of carrying around famed director Dario Argento's name and genes.

    Regardless of the validity or lack thereof of such assessment, it's important that the commentary doesn't focus solely on the person but on the situation, avoiding the all too easy "serves her well" pitfalls. The media would have a field trip with that - just the same way they brushed aside and chastised every single attempt taken to have an in-depth look at the whole #MeToo situation under the "hatred for Asia Argento" or for women in general chapter.

    This is a prime opportunity to highlight the gulf in treatment that exist when a man or a woman are accused of a crime (sexual in particular, but I would say not limited to) by the media, which in turn influences public opinion and sometimes even courts.


  • #194
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    I came across this today.
    So presumably they are tackling what they perceive as a gender imbalance at events with ... a gender imbalance in the opposite direction
    @300seconds_IRL
    300Seconds: a series of events to empower our peers particularly women to speak publicly @mmarymckenna @claremcgee80

    https://twitter.com/dcsdbusiness/status/954054110617141248

    https://twitter.com/cmcmns23/status/978740361358127104


  • #195
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    I'm pleased to see many people on Twitter challenging the narrative that what happened with Serena Williams was sexist
    https://twitter.com/Erin_Molan/status/1038716103973732352
    https://twitter.com/fifiharoon/status/1038707641520988160
    https://twitter.com/AnnaK_4ever/status/1038751494093324295
    https://twitter.com/reddmahoney/status/1038621179945385984?s=11


  • #196
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Sean Penn says spirit of much of #MeToo movement is to 'divide men and women'
    Actor Sean Penn gave his thoughts on the #MeToo movement, saying it's "too black and white."
    by Scott Stump / Sep.17.2018 /
    https://www.today.com/popculture/sean-penn-says-spirit-much-metoo-movement-divide-men-women-t137531


  • #197
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Ewan MacKenna: Women in sport have been fighting hard for parity, clearly on this occasion it didn't suit some

    Who'd be a manager? Actually, scratch that, for there's a more pertinent question to ask. Who'd be a male manager of a female team?

    https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/ladies-football/ewan-mackenna-women-in-sport-have-been-fighting-hard-for-parity-clearly-on-this-occasion-it-didnt-suit-some-37334309.html
    "It's very sensitive and personal to a certain number of girls that have walked away. These issues aren't to be dragged through the public," she said, before hinting at those issues, allowing them to be dragged through the public domain in an ill-informed manner, and reminding that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. "We didn't feel it was a safe environment to be in so we decided to leave," she said.

    And then Staunton left such an open but also a closed comment hanging out there for all to see.

    Here's the problem though. Be honest around what comes to mind when a group of women, many mere teens, quit a team because they "didn't feel it was a safe environment"? It's not even a year since the Tom Humphries case and, rightly or wrongly, you think of either physical or sexual abuse. That grabs a concerned attention that has been staring down Leahy's name ever since.

    Language is powerful in such spheres and those speaking out need to be careful for, without evidence given to relevant authorities, they have no right to so lazily flash certain sentiments about. Yet that happened as silence after the brief chatter made sure innuendo formed and prospered.

    Leahy did no such wrong, as we now know. These days, however, it can be hard to stuff the genie back into the bottle. That's because the public don't want detail, they want a headline and outrage and a cause and a crusade.


  • #198
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    https://twitter.com/bbcsimonwarr/status/1043084549037727749


  • #199
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Woman pours bleach on men to stop them from manspreading
    https://www.joe.ie/news/woman-pours-bleach-men-stop-manspreading-642050


  • #200
    iptba
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Leading Irish authors sign letter against ‘forced resignation’ of editor over #MeToo essay
    John Banville, Colm Tóibín, Roy Foster among over 100 writers to express dismay over departure of New York Review of Books editor Ian Buruma
    https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/leading-irish-authors-sign-letter-against-forced-resignation-of-editor-over-metoo-essay-1.3641430


  • #201
    LostinBlanch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭LostinBlanch


    Apologies for the long post, but I found this interesting.

    Previously I posted about the Sokal Affair where Alan Sokal, a physics professor at New York University and University College London. In 1996, Sokal submitted an article to Social Text, an academic journal of postmodern cultural studies. The submission was an experiment to test the journal's intellectual rigor and, specifically, to investigate whether "a leading North American journal of cultural studies would publish an article liberally salted with nonsense if (a) it sounded good and (b) it flattered the editors' ideological preconceptions". It caused a stir at the time as it showed up the lack of intellectual rigour of postmodernist theory which has been used to underpin the academic argument for gender theory. The phenomenons known Cultural Marxism and SJWs are also closely linked with postmodernist theory.

    Now twenty two years later three academics have gone one step further and sent bogus papers to academic journals which were peer reviewed and accepted for publication.
    For the past year scholars James Lindsay, Helen Pluckrose, and Peter Boghossian have sent fake papers to various academic journals which they describe as specialising in activism or “grievance studies.” Their stated mission has been to expose how easy it is to get “absurdities and morally fashionable political ideas published as legitimate academic research.”

    To date, their project has been successful: seven papers have passed through peer review and have been published, including a 3000 word excerpt of Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf, rewritten in the language of Intersectionality theory :eek: and published in the Gender Studies journal Affilia.

    Some other academics have responded to the fact that these papers were peer reviewed and published.
    One published paper proposed that dog parks are “rape-condoning spaces.” Another, entitled “Our Struggle is My Struggle: Solidarity Feminism as an Intersectional Reply to Neoliberal and Choice Feminism” reworked, and substantially altered, part of Mein Kampf. The most shocking, (not published, its status is “revise and resubmit”) is a “Feminist Approach to Pedagogy.” It proposes “experiential reparations” as a corrective for privileged students. These include sitting on the floor, wearing chains, or being purposely spoken over. Reviewers have commented that the authors risk exploiting underprivileged students by burdening them with an expectation to teach about privilege.

    So there you have it, if "A Feminist Approach to Pedagogy" is accepted academically, how much of these postmodernist underpinnings of feminist theory, privilege, SJW theory have any academic validity at all?


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