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CCTV Request - Garda superintendents letter

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    #32
    lunamoon
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭lunamoon


    Seems like a case for GSOC. I'd report it to them that you believe the Gardai didn't investigate your issue properly.


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    #33
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,844 ✭✭✭enricoh


    My oul lads business got done last year, around 10k it cost between damage to premises and stuff robbed.
    They took two cheques out of the back of the chequebook which were stopping by the bank and sent back to him.
    He contacted the cops, the time, date, address n hatch no of the bank were stamped on them and two Romanian dopes had signed their own name on them!
    Game, set and match we thought! How naive!
    The cops didn't get around to asking the bank for CCTV and after 2 months iirc it was wiped.
    Utterly useless.


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    #34
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    enricoh wrote: »
    My oul lads business got done last year, around 10k it cost between damage to premises and stuff robbed.
    They took two cheques out of the back of the chequebook which were stopping by the bank and sent back to him.
    He contacted the cops, the time, date, address n hatch no of the bank were stamped on them and two Romanian dopes had signed their own name on them!
    Game, set and match we thought! How naive!
    The cops didn't get around to asking the bank for CCTV and after 2 months iirc it was wiped.
    Utterly useless.

    And where is the root and branch approach reform to this?


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    #35
    seagull
    Registered Users Posts: 2,340 ✭✭✭seagull


    Have you asked the gym to watch back the CCTV and see if there is anything on the recording showing the theft from your car?


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    #36
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Azizur Rahman wrote: »
    There has been reported displinenary action taken against Gardaí who didn't follow up an investigation.
    E.g https://www.thejournal.ie/garda-gsoc-complaints-4635954-May2019/.

    Gardaí have discretion with summary offences but not indictable offences. Theft is both (hybrid offence). To close investigations Gardaí have to show they have pursued every reasonable investigation avenue available. Not getting CCTV is neglect of duty.

    A Judicial Review would sort that out very quickly, they have discretion in all their duties and powers, not just in relation to indictable or summary offences.

    A requirement to follow a code issued by the Policing Authority does not trump the law, a common law privilege which is protected by Statute.

    Garda disciplinary actions are often wrong in law, here's two posts on the points made:-

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109534046&postcount=125

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110274180

    Previously a member of Gardaí could be prosecuted for failure to investigate a crime, but only if it was (a) a felony (which was a serious crime) and (b) there was a named suspect, but it's no longer the case.


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    #37
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    I see tonight on Sky that that Criminal Bar Association in the UK has said theft has effectively been decriminalized due to the failure of the police to prosecute it.


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    #38
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I see tonight on Sky that that Criminal Bar Association in the UK has said theft has effectively been decriminalized due to the failure of the police to prosecute it.

    Add to that the proposed prohibition of short sentences in England and Wales and you just have the criminal fraternity laughing at everyone else.


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    #39
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I see tonight on Sky that that Criminal Bar Association in the UK has said theft has effectively been decriminalized due to the failure of the police to prosecute it.

    Probably taken out of context, they essentially said the public may feel that, not that it has happened, and it's based on personal theft statistics in four forces only so does not necessarily represent the UK as a whole.

    The comment is following a fall in potential charge and the exact comment from the CBA was "If charging rates fall to close to or even zero, then the public fast feels offences are in effect being decriminalised".


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    #40
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,205 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    GM228 wrote: »
    Probably taken out of context, they essentially said the public may feel that, not that it has happened, and it's based on personal theft statistics in four forces only so does not necessarily represent the UK as a whole.

    The comment is following a fall in potential charge and the exact comment from the CBA was "If charging rates fall to close to or even zero, then the public fast feels offences are in effect being decriminalised".

    so do we know what the charging rates are?


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    #41
    ghost of ireland past
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 228 ✭✭ghost of ireland past


    I don't agree that the Gardai can refuse to investigate crime.

    I do agree that perhaps individual members of the Gardai can do what they want, (that may be true, I don't know), but the Garda as an an organisation have to investigate serious crime, and probably all crime.


    What about this?
    Article 13 of the European Convention on Human Rights, effective remedy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights wrote:
    Article 13 – effective remedy
    Article 13 provides for the right for an effective remedy before national authorities for violations of rights under the Convention. The inability to obtain a remedy before a national court for an infringement of a Convention right is thus a free-standing and separately actionable infringement of the Convention.

    People have a right to an effective remedy when their rights are breached and I'd argue that that includes the right to have crimes investigated, with a view to having a court case afterwards.


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    #42
    ghost of ireland past
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 228 ✭✭ghost of ireland past


    This case involved the theft of property, and the Gardai apparently have not investigated properly.
    Irish Constitution, Article 40.3 wrote:
    3.1 The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.
    3.2 The State shall, in particular, by its laws protect as best it may from unjust attack and, in the case of injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good name, and property rights of every citizen.

    The State shall, in particular, ... in the case of injustice done, vindicate the ... property rights of every citizen.


    I would suggest that the State is required to attempt to vindicate your rights here, as explicitily stated in the constitution.

    Your property rights were infringed. The state must attempt to vindicate them.


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    #43
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    so do we know what the charging rates are?

    300 cases from four forces in the UK were 5.4%, with personal theft at 1.3%.


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    #44
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    ghost of ireland past wrote: »
    I don't agree that the Gardai can refuse to investigate crime.

    I do agree that perhaps individual members of the Gardai can do what they want, (that may be true, I don't know), but the Garda as an an organisation have to investigate serious crime, and probably all crime.


    What about this?
    Article 13 of the European Convention on Human Rights, effective remedy.


    People have a right to an effective remedy when their rights are breached and I'd argue that that includes the right to have crimes investigated, with a view to having a court case afterwards.
    ghost of ireland past wrote: »
    This case involved the theft of property, and the Gardai apparently have not investigated properly.



    The State shall, in particular, ... in the case of injustice done, vindicate the ... property rights of every citizen.


    I would suggest that the State is required to attempt to vindicate your rights here, as explicitily stated in the constitution.

    Your property rights were infringed. The state must attempt to vindicate them.

    We can agree/disagree all we like but it has been well settled by the courts in many jurisdictions.

    There have been a few Irish cases dealing with this issue and the question of liability for failure to investigate and there has been no issue of unconstitutionality. Article 40 requires the state to vindicate the property rights as best it can, however, members of AGS are independent of AGS as an organisation and the state.

    And the ECtHR has already dealt with the issue and has held that there is scope for domestic law to apply a more restrictive liability standard than that afforded by the ECHR in favour of the Police in applying a "fair, just and reasonable" test, and it was fair, just and reasonable to restrict liability to achieve the public policy objective of maintaining an effective Police service - it specifically dealt with discretion and the ability to hold Police accountable in actions of negligence for failures in relation to their investigatory and prosecutorial powers.


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    #45
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,205 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    GM228 wrote: »
    300 cases from four forces in the UK were 5.4%, with personal theft at 1.3%.

    1.3% is almost effectively 0 so i can understand if people feel that theft from people has been effectively decrminalised.


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    #46
    ghost of ireland past
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 228 ✭✭ghost of ireland past


    Do the police serve the public or not?

    Are the police at war with the public?

    I get that impression from reading some posts here. The police are supposed to serve the public, not deny them services and lie to them.

    The standards in the Gardai seem to be extremely low.

    Perhaps we should bring back respect for the truth.


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    #47
    Hoboo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,524 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    ghost of ireland past wrote: »

    The standards in the Gardai seem to be extremely low.

    The majority wouldn't be setting the world alight in any other profession to be fair. The requirements to join the force seem to be signs of a pulse and tie your laces to a reasonable standard. Walked by Kildare St entrance to government buildings on Wednesday and the gatekeeper was on her phone wetting herself laughing.


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    #48
    ghost of ireland past
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 228 ✭✭ghost of ireland past


    The fact that we can't tell the truth about drugs as a society is having a serious impact on our ability to tell the truth about anything.

    There are too many criminals in our police force and that is being ignored. Our politicians are terrible, and our society is being seriously damaged as a result.

    If no-one can interfere with a Guard in the course of his duties, and that includes the police commissioner apparently, then why has no guard arrested Martin Callinan for his crimes, or Supt. Dave Taylor?

    Those criminals (Martin and Dave) are above the law and are being protected by politicians and by other guards. If a Guard attempted to arrest Martin Callinan he would be suspended or fired.

    It is shameful and a disgrace, and not something to be proud of.


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    #49
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    ghost of ireland past wrote: »
    There are too many criminals in our police force and that is being ignored. Our politicians are terrible, and our society is being seriously damaged as a result.

    This thread turned sour fairly quickly.


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    #50
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,527 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    ghost of ireland past wrote: »

    If no-one can interfere with a Guard in the course of his duties, and that includes the police commissioner apparently, then why has no guard arrested Martin Callinan for his crimes, or Supt. Dave Taylor?

    What particular crimes are you referring to here?


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    #51
    Azizur Rahman
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭Azizur Rahman


    GM228 wrote: »
    A Judicial Review would sort that out very quickly, they have discretion in all their duties and powers, not just in relation to indictable or summary offences.



    Previously a member of Gardaí could be prosecuted for failure to investigate a crime, but only if it was (a) a felony (which was a serious crime) and (b) there was a named suspect, but it's no longer the case.

    The fact is (and which is in accordance with the law) a member of Gardaí can't be disciplined for neglect of duty when there is "good and sufficient cause" for that neglect of duty.

    Last paragraph above pulled for one of the links you posted, surely any Garda to not be disciplined for not carrying out an investigation would find it tough to show they had a good and sufficient cause to not do so?


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    #52
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,722 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    ED E wrote: »
    Gard told a friend that a motorist received points for an offence he reported. Later found out that the Gard did nothing just wanted him to stop following up.

    Gardai with crap attidues and work ethics are not uncommon.

    A guard can't issue points based of the hearsay from another person though... Why would your friend or you believe they can.


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    #53
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Azizur Rahman wrote: »
    Last paragraph above pulled for one of the links you posted, surely any Garda to not be disciplined for not carrying out an investigation would find it tough to show they had a good and sufficient cause to not do so?

    Good and sufficient cause would equate to a legally sufficient cause which is what discretion is.

    People miss the point being made that the code and disciplinary actions are taken under the Garda Síochána Act 2005 and that nothing in the Act can trump the common law power of discretion, that is a fact and provided for under the Act itself, discretion is supreme to any requirement to act and any disciplinary action for failure to act, only common law or an Act of the Oireachtas can change that position, not a code or even ministerial regulation.


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    #54
    BaronVon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    GM228 wrote: »
    Good and sufficient cause would equate to a legally sufficient cause which is what discretion is.

    People miss the point being made that the code and disciplinary actions are taken under the Garda Síochána Act 2005 and that nothing in the Act can trump the common law power of discretion, that is a fact and provided for under the Act itself, discretion is supreme to any requirement to act and any disciplinary action for failure to act, only common law or an Act of the Oireachtas can change that position, not a code or even ministerial regulation.

    Would you consider it necessary that Gardaí have this ultimate discretion? As you pointed out earlier, putting a duty of care on the police would overburden the police force, and grind it to a halt.

    Or is it something that should be looked at with a view to changing?


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    #55
    ghost of ireland past
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 228 ✭✭ghost of ireland past


    Discretion appears to be little more than dereliction of duty by another name, in many cases. I have written to the Garda Press Office pointing that out and I've received no reply.

    I don't accept that the Garda as an institution can refuse to investigate serious crimes, like murder for example.

    If 50 people are murdered at once and the killers run off in 50 different directions then I accept that a single policeman cannot run after them all, and the single policeman must use judgement or discretion to make a choice as to what to do.

    But the organisation cannot simply refuse to investigate serious crime while doing nothing else. I accept there are many examples in Ireland and the UK of the police refusing or failing to do their job in relation to extremely serious matters. I'm not impressed.


    The police seem intent upon alienating the public with their carry on.

    Someone asked what crimes was I talking about in relation to Martin Callinan and Dave Taylor.
    I'm talking about their corruption, and the destruction of Maurice McCabe's life.

    Martin is despicable, as is Dave. Again, I have written to the Garda Press Office on this issue too and they have ignored me. It's no wonder that I refuse to follow cannabis laws, and the press office knows that if you're wondering, as I've told them, using my real name and address.

    The police have betrayed the public, as have politicians. It's not good enough.


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    #56
    Always Tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    FionnK86 wrote: »
    Thanks for your opinion.

    I intend to proceed with inquiry, with belief that justice system works and crime doesn’t pay.

    I pay taxes, I deserve to reclaim that through use of public services, especially when I’m €1000 out of pocket.

    We all wish things in Ireland worked a certain way.

    They don't. You're wasting your timede.

    You should have said that some guys in the carpark offered to sell you some drugs, they'd have the place staked out 24/7 then.


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    #57
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    BaronVon wrote: »
    Would you consider it necessary that Gardaí have this ultimate discretion? As you pointed out earlier, putting a duty of care on the police would overburden the police force, and grind it to a halt.

    Or is it something that should be looked at with a view to changing?

    Discretion is necessary without a doubt, that is accepted by scholars, governments and Courts (including the ECtHR) the world over, however the question to ask is to how far the scope of such should extend.


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    #58
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    GM228 wrote: »
    Discretion is necessary without a doubt, that is accepted by scholars, governments and Courts (including the ECtHR) the world over, however the question to ask is to how far the scope of such should extend.

    The scope is one area. The bases upon which it is executed another. Discretion is one tool for managing caseload and costs and public cost is the great elephant in the room. The bases and scope of discretion are very straightforward to deal with by a properly implemented data management system. The current cost for designing and implementing that would be about 200 million. Sorry 500 million. Sorry 1.5 billion. Sorry 1.8 billion. I am making up the numbers because that’s how it’s done.


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    #59
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    GM228 wrote: »
    Probably taken out of context, they essentially said the public may feel that, not that it has happened, and it's based on personal theft statistics in four forces only so does not necessarily represent the UK as a whole.

    The comment is following a fall in potential charge and the exact comment from the CBA was "If charging rates fall to close to or even zero, then the public fast feels offences are in effect being decriminalised".

    I can't find the original statement on line. The Sky link to Telegraph did mention personal theft and four areas as well as other statistics from other areas where a decline was noted. In regard to the quote you use the rate has fallen close to zero which effectively means decriminalised as there will be a vanishingly small rate of criminal convictions for same. That is a different level of the rather arch "public fast feels" of the quote. The CBA is of course trying to exploit the stats to restore the legal aid scheme in UK and restore fee levels which is its transactional raison d'etre and seeking to play the public opinion card. The response to this effective decriminalization will be interesting to watch in the UK as we rapidly follow the same path.


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    #60
    Lmklad
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    This turned interesting. Please correct me if I’m wrong GM228. Gardai have the common law discretion to not investigate or prosecute most of not all crimes reported?

    If this is so then why should any Garda do any work ever?


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    #61
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Lmklad wrote: »
    If this is so then why should any Garda do any work ever?

    Because the vast majority are dedicated and committed to doing a good job. Furthermore legal or not they would be disciplined.


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