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CCTV Request - Garda superintendents letter

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  • 22-01-2020 9:18am
    #1
    FionnK86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭


    I’d a part stolen from my car in November , valued €1005 in gym car park.

    Gym contacted and retained footage. Guards contacted & PULSE letter received, follow up call that it was ‘probably’ members of certain community & it wasn’t worth their time to follow up.

    I’d like case to be followed up, so I asked guard to continue and request footage. Guard rang after 2 months and said they’d requested footage several times but no response.

    I emailed gym with audio of phonecall from guard and they replied that they’d received no request at all.

    I’d like this followed up. I don’t care if they lack resources, it’s a crime. I believe i need to go to superintendent but I don’t want guard in case go get a telling off from their boss.

    Is there anyway to further this? Is it illegal to record a guard from my voicemail?


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    #2
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    It's perfectly legal to record any conversation you are a party to.

    A Guard has ultimate discretion in their choice of following up or not, they can't be forced.


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    #3
    FionnK86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭FionnK86


    GM228 wrote: »
    It's perfectly legal to record any conversation you are a party to.

    A Guard has ultimate discretion in their choice of following up or not, they can't be forced.

    Thanks GM228, I was scared I was offside.

    I suppose it might be worth asking local TD in run up to election to look into it. I don’t want guard to get a b*llocking but want local representatives to be aware that police are struggling to carry out a simple 20 minute CCTV check.


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    #4
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,646 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Why do you believe the gym over the guards?


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    #5
    FionnK86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭FionnK86


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Why do you believe the gym over the guards?

    I believe gym more, as guard had a slopey shouldered response whereas the gym replied to each of my emails immediately with a promise to resolving issue once guard has solved issue.

    Furthermore, I’ve worked in CCTV in bus company for 4 years and each time guards requested CCTV (above 100 occasions), we’d store it & never hear from guard again.

    I’ve no reason to believe that this case has been treated differently to my past experience in bus company so I’m trying to get movement.


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    #6
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,582 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    What do you hope to achieve in this instance?

    Is it pique that the Garda appears to have lied to you, rather than chase a theft crime?
    Would you feel less aggrieved if the Garda's response was something along the lines of "more pressing matters are consuming my time. As such the theft perpetrated upon your property will not be further investigated" ?

    It's a sad fact that theft and non violent and low impact/value crime are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to investigation and detection.

    What's so special about your particular instance that Garda discretion is wrong?

    I'd agree that the Garda should 100% be honest that your theft is not being investigated, but what else do you think should happen?


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    #7
    FionnK86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭FionnK86


    banie01 wrote: »
    What do you hope to achieve in this instance?

    Is it pique that the Garda appears to have lied to you, rather than chase a theft crime?
    Would you feel less aggrieved if the Garda's response was something along the lines of "more pressing matters are consuming my time. As such the theft perpetrated upon your property will not be further investigated" ?

    It's a sad fact that theft and non violent and low impact/value crime are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to investigation and detection.

    What's so special about your particular instance that Garda discretion is wrong?

    I'd agree that the Garda should 100% be honest that your theft is not being investigated, but what else do you think should happen?


    I want copy of CCTV from guards to be published on Crimestoppers to warn others about leaving cars in this particular car park, so gym might consider increasing security measures.


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    #8
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,582 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    FionnK86 wrote: »
    I want copy of CCTV from guards to be published on Crimestoppers to warn others about leaving cars in this particular car park, so gym might consider increasing security measures.

    Crimestoppers doesn't do that?
    It's a dead website and a voicemail number for reporting crime.

    AFAIK the Gardaí only publish CCTV for the purposes of identifying perpetrators in the course of active investigations?

    I do stand to be corrected on that, if anyone knows otherwise.

    Your investigation doesn't appear to be active and the channel you want it published to doesn't operate as a CCTV publication site, so I'm at a loss as to what you expect to happen?

    You are owed an explanation from the Garda as to why he "mis-informed" you, but I don't see what else you can reasonably expect.


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    #9
    FionnK86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭FionnK86


    banie01 wrote: »
    Crimestoppers doesn't do that?
    It's a dead website and a voicemail number for reporting crime.

    AFAIK the Gardaí only publish CCTV for the purposes of identifying perpetrators in the course of active investigations?

    I do stand to be corrected on that, if anyone knows otherwise.

    Your investigation doesn't appear to be active and the channel you want it published to doesn't operate as a CCTV publication site, so I'm at a loss as to what you expect to happen?

    You are owed an explanation from the Garda as to why he "mis-informed" you, but I don't see what else you can reasonably expect.

    Thanks for your opinion.

    I intend to proceed with inquiry, with belief that justice system works and crime doesn’t pay.

    I pay taxes, I deserve to reclaim that through use of public services, especially when I’m €1000 out of pocket.


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    #10
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,582 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    FionnK86 wrote: »
    Thanks for your opinion.

    I intend to proceed with inquiry, with belief that justice system works and crime doesn’t pay.

    I pay taxes, I deserve to reclaim that through use of public services, especially when I’m €1000 out of pocket.

    By your being €1000 out of pocket, can it be taken your loss was uninsured?


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    #11
    FionnK86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭FionnK86


    banie01 wrote: »
    By your being €1000 out of pocket, can it be taken your loss was uninsured?

    Liberty said if I claimed I’d lose no claims of €1500.


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    #12
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,782 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    banie01 wrote: »
    By your being €1000 out of pocket, can it be taken your loss was uninsured?
    Or maybe he just wants a crime investigated.


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    #13
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Gard told a friend that a motorist received points for an offence he reported. Later found out that the Gard did nothing just wanted him to stop following up.

    Gardai with crap attidues and work ethics are not uncommon.


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    #14
    FionnK86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭FionnK86


    Nice to see a few people also think that i should try to bring investigation of crime to successful conclusion! Faith restored!


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    #15
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,582 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    FionnK86 wrote: »
    Liberty said if I claimed I’d lose no claims of €1500.

    That is an absolute balls, and the only crime commited in that context wasn't your catylitic converter being stolen.

    Good luck with your quest but has been pointed by GM228 the gaurd has discretion.
    Given that the crime was non-violent theft of a (to pulse at least) low value item, the likelihood of any investigation is low without actual bloody handprints left on your car.

    Currently even burgalries are basically uninvestigated, unless footprints, fingerprints, blood or other evidence is left at the scene and even then it could be a 2 day wait for scene of crime officer to attend.
    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Or maybe he just wants a crime investigated.

    Low value and non violent crime is basically ignored unless compelling evidence is available.
    It also falls far far down on the list of crimes to be investigated.

    Limited investigative resources mean that not all crime will be investigated, unfortunately.
    Those that are investigated will be on the more serious end of the scale than that which the OP has encountered.


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    #16
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,782 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    banie01 wrote: »
    That is an absolute balls, and the only crime commited in that context wasn't your catylitic converter being stolen.

    Good luck with your quest but has been pointed by GM228 the gaurd has discretion.
    Given that the crime was non-violent theft of a (to pulse at least) low value item, the likelihood of any investigation is low without actual bloody handprints left on your car.

    Currently even burgalries are basically uninvestigated, unless footprints, fingerprints, blood or other evidence is left at the scene and even then it could be a 2 day wait for scene of crime officer to attend.



    Low value and non violent crime is basically ignored unless compelling evidence is available.
    It also falls far far down on the list of crimes to be investigated.


    Well then maybe the Gardai and Dept of Justice oshould just come out and tell us that so. And people such as the OP might just suck it up.


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    #17
    FGR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭FGR


    ED E wrote: »
    Gard told a friend that a motorist received points for an offence he reported. Later found out that the Gard did nothing just wanted him to stop following up.

    Gardai with crap attidues and work ethics are not uncommon.

    How did your friend find that out? Seems non compliant with GDPR unless the person who received the points told him themselves.


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    #18
    brian_t
    Registered Users Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭brian_t


    FionnK86 wrote: »
    I want copy of CCTV from guards to be published on Crimestoppers to warn others about leaving cars in this particular car park, so gym might consider increasing security measures.

    If the CCTV shows the crime then it would be in the interests of the Gym to increase security measures for their customers carpark whether the Gardai investigate or not.


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    #19
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,285 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    banie01 wrote: »
    That is an absolute balls, and the only crime commited in that context wasn't your catylitic converter being stolen.

    Good luck with your quest but has been pointed by GM228 the gaurd has discretion.
    Given that the crime was non-violent theft of a (to pulse at least) low value item, the likelihood of any investigation is low without actual bloody handprints left on your car.

    Currently even burgalries are basically uninvestigated, unless footprints, fingerprints, blood or other evidence is left at the scene and even then it could be a 2 day wait for scene of crime officer to attend.



    Low value and non violent crime is basically ignored unless compelling evidence is available.
    It also falls far far down on the list of crimes to be investigated.

    Limited investigative resources mean that not all crime will be investigated, unfortunately.
    Those that are investigated will be on the more serious end of the scale than that which the OP has encountered.

    would you not consider CCTV footage to be compelling evidence?


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    #20
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,582 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    would you not consider CCTV footage to be compelling evidence?

    Not without its actually being reviewed but CCTV unless exceptionally clear is of questionable evidential value.

    It's a horrible bit of calculus, but the effort and cost invested in investigating a low value and non violent theft are in reality far outweighed by the costs of said investigation, court action and enforcement of any sentence.

    That's the current state of play.
    It's not one I agree with, zero-tolerance does pay dividends as does high visibility policing.

    That's not going to happen in the medium at least in Ireland, outside of maximum pressure policing stunts to address gangland violence.

    The gardaí have no interest in pursuing the criminal who stole from the OP.
    That's not right, but unfortunately it is the current state of affairs.


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    #21
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Just write to the Superintendent - chances are it'll be opened by the District Office and just forwarded to the Guard via the an Inspector and/or Sergeant. If the guard is lying about requesting CCTV then he deserves a bollocking so why worry about it?


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    #22
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,582 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Just write to the Superintendent - chances are it'll be opened by the District Office and just forwarded to the Guard via the an Inspector and/or Sergeant. If the guard is lying about requesting CCTV then he deserves a bollocking so why worry about it?

    This is the long and short of it really.

    If the Garda has told the OP he followed up and can be shown a liar he deserves a bit more than a bollocking too IMO ;)


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    #23
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    GM228 wrote: »
    It's perfectly legal to record any conversation you are a party to.

    A Guard has ultimate discretion in their choice of following up or not, they can't be forced.

    I don’t doubt you given your track record here. But it certainly explains a lot about how the country has slid down the slope it has.


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    #24
    Lmklad
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I don’t doubt you given your track record here. But it certainly explains a lot about how the country has slid down the slope it has.

    I would question this. An alleged crime has been reported. Gardai are legally obliged to gather all evidence available and forward same to the DPP or Garda officer acting in that capacity who then decide whether enough evidence exists to pursue the alleged crime. An individual Garda can not decide to not investigate a crime.


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    #25
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Lmklad wrote: »
    I would question this. An alleged crime has been reported. Gardai are legally obliged to gather all evidence available and forward same to the DPP or Garda officer acting in that capacity who then decide whether enough evidence exists to pursue the alleged crime. An individual Garda can not decide to not investigate a crime.

    Yes they can, they have a common law power of discretion, it has been used without consequence for serious crimes including allegations of rape of a minor so there will be no issues with theft!

    Read this thread:-

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766

    Gardaí have a unique power, no executive authority can compel them to do anything in relation to their prosecutorial or investigatory functions.


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    #26
    Lmklad
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    GM228 wrote: »
    Yes they can, they have a common law power of discretion, it has been used for serious crimes including allegations of rape of a minor!

    Read this thread:-

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766

    Gardaí have a unique power, no executive authority can compel them to do anything in relation to their prosecutorial or investigatory functions.

    That’s a long read! Lol however that did not cover my point. I stated at Gardai are legally obliged to gather all evidence available. That’s it. I am aware of the discretion to prosecute/ arrest. The post you included covers rightly the immunity Gardai enjoy from outside influences but that does not cover my point of the requirement to gather evidence.


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    #27
    Notmything
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭Notmything


    brian_t wrote: »
    If the CCTV shows the crime then it would be in the interests of the Gym to increase security measures for their customers carpark whether the Gardai investigate or not.

    Surely the gym doesn't need a Garda to view the video to confirm a crime, the gym could watch it themselves.

    Perhaps talk to the gym about their security.


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    #28
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Lmklad wrote: »
    That’s a long read! Lol however that did not cover my point. I stated at Gardai are legally obliged to gather all evidence available. That’s it. I am aware of the discretion to prosecute/ arrest. The post you included covers rightly the immunity Gardai enjoy from outside influences but that does not cover my point of the requirement to gather evidence.

    Read the thread, there is no such legal duty, the common law power of discretion applies to their prosecutorial and investigatory functions.

    From Professor Dermot Walsh who is considered the leading specialist on the Gardaí and their history:-
    no executive authority, not even the Garda commissioner or the minister, can lawfully direct how a member of the Garda Siochana should exercise his or her police powers or discharge his her law enforcement duties in any individual case

    Also Gardaí owe no duty of care to the public in their prosecutorial or investigatory functions.


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    #29
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    GM228 wrote: »
    Yes they can, they have a common law power of discretion, it has been used without consequence for serious crimes including allegations of rape of a minor so there will be no issues with theft!

    Read this thread:-

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766

    Gardaí have a unique power, no executive authority can compel them to do anything in relation to their prosecutorial or investigatory functions.

    Took a quick look and will read when I have put manners on a treadmill! Thanks due to you: thorough research and sourcing and utterly revealing of underlying legal and philosophical issues at heart of poor policing.


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    #30
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Op I'd definitely go further to be honest.

    Nothing imo is getting done and political powers need to sort laws and regulate the scrap industry.

    These thefts are getting more common and they are hitting basically anything but love the 4x4, vans and hybrids especially.


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    #31
    Azizur Rahman
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭Azizur Rahman


    There has been reported displinenary action taken against Gardaí who didn't follow up an investigation.
    E.g https://www.thejournal.ie/garda-gsoc-complaints-4635954-May2019/.

    Gardaí have discretion with summary offences but not indictable offences. Theft is both (hybrid offence). To close investigations Gardaí have to show they have pursued every reasonable investigation avenue available. Not getting CCTV is neglect of duty.


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