CCTV Request - Garda superintendents letter

FionnK86

I’d a part stolen from my car in November , valued €1005 in gym car park.

Gym contacted and retained footage. Guards contacted & PULSE letter received, follow up call that it was ‘probably’ members of certain community & it wasn’t worth their time to follow up.

I’d like case to be followed up, so I asked guard to continue and request footage. Guard rang after 2 months and said they’d requested footage several times but no response.

I emailed gym with audio of phonecall from guard and they replied that they’d received no request at all.

I’d like this followed up. I don’t care if they lack resources, it’s a crime. I believe i need to go to superintendent but I don’t want guard in case go get a telling off from their boss.

Is there anyway to further this? Is it illegal to record a guard from my voicemail?

GM228

It's perfectly legal to record any conversation you are a party to.

A Guard has ultimate discretion in their choice of following up or not, they can't be forced.

FionnK86

GM228 wrote: »

It's perfectly legal to record any conversation you are a party to.

A Guard has ultimate discretion in their choice of following up or not, they can't be forced.

Thanks GM228, I was scared I was offside.

I suppose it might be worth asking local TD in run up to election to look into it. I don’t want guard to get a b*llocking but want local representatives to be aware that police are struggling to carry out a simple 20 minute CCTV check.

El Weirdo

Why do you believe the gym over the guards?

FionnK86

El Weirdo wrote: »

Why do you believe the gym over the guards?

I believe gym more, as guard had a slopey shouldered response whereas the gym replied to each of my emails immediately with a promise to resolving issue once guard has solved issue.

Furthermore, I’ve worked in CCTV in bus company for 4 years and each time guards requested CCTV (above 100 occasions), we’d store it & never hear from guard again.

I’ve no reason to believe that this case has been treated differently to my past experience in bus company so I’m trying to get movement.

banie01

What do you hope to achieve in this instance?

Is it pique that the Garda appears to have lied to you, rather than chase a theft crime?
Would you feel less aggrieved if the Garda's response was something along the lines of "more pressing matters are consuming my time. As such the theft perpetrated upon your property will not be further investigated" ?

It's a sad fact that theft and non violent and low impact/value crime are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to investigation and detection.

What's so special about your particular instance that Garda discretion is wrong?

I'd agree that the Garda should 100% be honest that your theft is not being investigated, but what else do you think should happen?

FionnK86

banie01 wrote: »

What do you hope to achieve in this instance?

Is it pique that the Garda appears to have lied to you, rather than chase a theft crime?
Would you feel less aggrieved if the Garda's response was something along the lines of "more pressing matters are consuming my time. As such the theft perpetrated upon your property will not be further investigated" ?

It's a sad fact that theft and non violent and low impact/value crime are at the bottom of the pile when it comes to investigation and detection.

What's so special about your particular instance that Garda discretion is wrong?

I'd agree that the Garda should 100% be honest that your theft is not being investigated, but what else do you think should happen?

I want copy of CCTV from guards to be published on Crimestoppers to warn others about leaving cars in this particular car park, so gym might consider increasing security measures.

banie01

FionnK86 wrote: »

I want copy of CCTV from guards to be published on Crimestoppers to warn others about leaving cars in this particular car park, so gym might consider increasing security measures.

Crimestoppers doesn't do that?
It's a dead website and a voicemail number for reporting crime.

AFAIK the Gardaí only publish CCTV for the purposes of identifying perpetrators in the course of active investigations?

I do stand to be corrected on that, if anyone knows otherwise.

Your investigation doesn't appear to be active and the channel you want it published to doesn't operate as a CCTV publication site, so I'm at a loss as to what you expect to happen?

You are owed an explanation from the Garda as to why he "mis-informed" you, but I don't see what else you can reasonably expect.

FionnK86

banie01 wrote: »

Crimestoppers doesn't do that?
It's a dead website and a voicemail number for reporting crime.

AFAIK the Gardaí only publish CCTV for the purposes of identifying perpetrators in the course of active investigations?

I do stand to be corrected on that, if anyone knows otherwise.

Your investigation doesn't appear to be active and the channel you want it published to doesn't operate as a CCTV publication site, so I'm at a loss as to what you expect to happen?

You are owed an explanation from the Garda as to why he "mis-informed" you, but I don't see what else you can reasonably expect.

Thanks for your opinion.

I intend to proceed with inquiry, with belief that justice system works and crime doesn’t pay.

I pay taxes, I deserve to reclaim that through use of public services, especially when I’m €1000 out of pocket.

banie01

FionnK86 wrote: »

Thanks for your opinion.

I intend to proceed with inquiry, with belief that justice system works and crime doesn’t pay.

I pay taxes, I deserve to reclaim that through use of public services, especially when I’m €1000 out of pocket.

By your being €1000 out of pocket, can it be taken your loss was uninsured?

FionnK86

banie01 wrote: »

By your being €1000 out of pocket, can it be taken your loss was uninsured?

Liberty said if I claimed I’d lose no claims of €1500.

Fann Linn

banie01 wrote: »

By your being €1000 out of pocket, can it be taken your loss was uninsured?

Or maybe he just wants a crime investigated.

ED E

Gard told a friend that a motorist received points for an offence he reported. Later found out that the Gard did nothing just wanted him to stop following up.

Gardai with crap attidues and work ethics are not uncommon.

FionnK86

Nice to see a few people also think that i should try to bring investigation of crime to successful conclusion! Faith restored!

banie01

FionnK86 wrote: »

Liberty said if I claimed I’d lose no claims of €1500.

That is an absolute balls, and the only crime commited in that context wasn't your catylitic converter being stolen.

Good luck with your quest but has been pointed by GM228 the gaurd has discretion.
Given that the crime was non-violent theft of a (to pulse at least) low value item, the likelihood of any investigation is low without actual bloody handprints left on your car.

Currently even burgalries are basically uninvestigated, unless footprints, fingerprints, blood or other evidence is left at the scene and even then it could be a 2 day wait for scene of crime officer to attend.

Fann Linn wrote: »

Or maybe he just wants a crime investigated.

Low value and non violent crime is basically ignored unless compelling evidence is available.
It also falls far far down on the list of crimes to be investigated.

Limited investigative resources mean that not all crime will be investigated, unfortunately.
Those that are investigated will be on the more serious end of the scale than that which the OP has encountered.

Fann Linn

banie01 wrote: »

That is an absolute balls, and the only crime commited in that context wasn't your catylitic converter being stolen.

Good luck with your quest but has been pointed by GM228 the gaurd has discretion.
Given that the crime was non-violent theft of a (to pulse at least) low value item, the likelihood of any investigation is low without actual bloody handprints left on your car.

Currently even burgalries are basically uninvestigated, unless footprints, fingerprints, blood or other evidence is left at the scene and even then it could be a 2 day wait for scene of crime officer to attend.



Low value and non violent crime is basically ignored unless compelling evidence is available.
It also falls far far down on the list of crimes to be investigated.

Well then maybe the Gardai and Dept of Justice oshould just come out and tell us that so. And people such as the OP might just suck it up.

FGR

ED E wrote: »

Gard told a friend that a motorist received points for an offence he reported. Later found out that the Gard did nothing just wanted him to stop following up.

Gardai with crap attidues and work ethics are not uncommon.

How did your friend find that out? Seems non compliant with GDPR unless the person who received the points told him themselves.

brian_t

FionnK86 wrote: »

I want copy of CCTV from guards to be published on Crimestoppers to warn others about leaving cars in this particular car park, so gym might consider increasing security measures.

If the CCTV shows the crime then it would be in the interests of the Gym to increase security measures for their customers carpark whether the Gardai investigate or not.

ohnonotgmail

banie01 wrote: »

That is an absolute balls, and the only crime commited in that context wasn't your catylitic converter being stolen.

Good luck with your quest but has been pointed by GM228 the gaurd has discretion.
Given that the crime was non-violent theft of a (to pulse at least) low value item, the likelihood of any investigation is low without actual bloody handprints left on your car.

Currently even burgalries are basically uninvestigated, unless footprints, fingerprints, blood or other evidence is left at the scene and even then it could be a 2 day wait for scene of crime officer to attend.



Low value and non violent crime is basically ignored unless compelling evidence is available.
It also falls far far down on the list of crimes to be investigated.

Limited investigative resources mean that not all crime will be investigated, unfortunately.
Those that are investigated will be on the more serious end of the scale than that which the OP has encountered.

would you not consider CCTV footage to be compelling evidence?

banie01

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

would you not consider CCTV footage to be compelling evidence?

Not without its actually being reviewed but CCTV unless exceptionally clear is of questionable evidential value.

It's a horrible bit of calculus, but the effort and cost invested in investigating a low value and non violent theft are in reality far outweighed by the costs of said investigation, court action and enforcement of any sentence.

That's the current state of play.
It's not one I agree with, zero-tolerance does pay dividends as does high visibility policing.

That's not going to happen in the medium at least in Ireland, outside of maximum pressure policing stunts to address gangland violence.

The gardaí have no interest in pursuing the criminal who stole from the OP.
That's not right, but unfortunately it is the current state of affairs.

Samuel T. Cogley

Just write to the Superintendent - chances are it'll be opened by the District Office and just forwarded to the Guard via the an Inspector and/or Sergeant. If the guard is lying about requesting CCTV then he deserves a bollocking so why worry about it?

banie01

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Just write to the Superintendent - chances are it'll be opened by the District Office and just forwarded to the Guard via the an Inspector and/or Sergeant. If the guard is lying about requesting CCTV then he deserves a bollocking so why worry about it?

This is the long and short of it really.

If the Garda has told the OP he followed up and can be shown a liar he deserves a bit more than a bollocking too IMO

KWAG2019

GM228 wrote: »

It's perfectly legal to record any conversation you are a party to.

A Guard has ultimate discretion in their choice of following up or not, they can't be forced.

I don’t doubt you given your track record here. But it certainly explains a lot about how the country has slid down the slope it has.

Lmklad

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I don’t doubt you given your track record here. But it certainly explains a lot about how the country has slid down the slope it has.

I would question this. An alleged crime has been reported. Gardai are legally obliged to gather all evidence available and forward same to the DPP or Garda officer acting in that capacity who then decide whether enough evidence exists to pursue the alleged crime. An individual Garda can not decide to not investigate a crime.

GM228

Lmklad wrote: »

I would question this. An alleged crime has been reported. Gardai are legally obliged to gather all evidence available and forward same to the DPP or Garda officer acting in that capacity who then decide whether enough evidence exists to pursue the alleged crime. An individual Garda can not decide to not investigate a crime.

Yes they can, they have a common law power of discretion, it has been used without consequence for serious crimes including allegations of rape of a minor so there will be no issues with theft!

Read this thread:-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766

Gardaí have a unique power, no executive authority can compel them to do anything in relation to their prosecutorial or investigatory functions.

Lmklad

GM228 wrote: »

Yes they can, they have a common law power of discretion, it has been used for serious crimes including allegations of rape of a minor!

Read this thread:-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766

Gardaí have a unique power, no executive authority can compel them to do anything in relation to their prosecutorial or investigatory functions.

That’s a long read! Lol however that did not cover my point. I stated at Gardai are legally obliged to gather all evidence available. That’s it. I am aware of the discretion to prosecute/ arrest. The post you included covers rightly the immunity Gardai enjoy from outside influences but that does not cover my point of the requirement to gather evidence.

Notmything

brian_t wrote: »

If the CCTV shows the crime then it would be in the interests of the Gym to increase security measures for their customers carpark whether the Gardai investigate or not.

Surely the gym doesn't need a Garda to view the video to confirm a crime, the gym could watch it themselves.

Perhaps talk to the gym about their security.

GM228

Lmklad wrote: »

That’s a long read! Lol however that did not cover my point. I stated at Gardai are legally obliged to gather all evidence available. That’s it. I am aware of the discretion to prosecute/ arrest. The post you included covers rightly the immunity Gardai enjoy from outside influences but that does not cover my point of the requirement to gather evidence.

Read the thread, there is no such legal duty, the common law power of discretion applies to their prosecutorial and investigatory functions.

From Professor Dermot Walsh who is considered the leading specialist on the Gardaí and their history:-

no executive authority, not even the Garda commissioner or the minister, can lawfully direct how a member of the Garda Siochana should exercise his or her police powers or discharge his her law enforcement duties in any individual case

Also Gardaí owe no duty of care to the public in their prosecutorial or investigatory functions.

KWAG2019

GM228 wrote: »

Yes they can, they have a common law power of discretion, it has been used without consequence for serious crimes including allegations of rape of a minor so there will be no issues with theft!

Read this thread:-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057648766

Gardaí have a unique power, no executive authority can compel them to do anything in relation to their prosecutorial or investigatory functions.

Took a quick look and will read when I have put manners on a treadmill! Thanks due to you: thorough research and sourcing and utterly revealing of underlying legal and philosophical issues at heart of poor policing.

punisher5112

Op I'd definitely go further to be honest.

Nothing imo is getting done and political powers need to sort laws and regulate the scrap industry.

These thefts are getting more common and they are hitting basically anything but love the 4x4, vans and hybrids especially.

Azizur Rahman

There has been reported displinenary action taken against Gardaí who didn't follow up an investigation.
E.g https://www.thejournal.ie/garda-gsoc-complaints-4635954-May2019/.

Gardaí have discretion with summary offences but not indictable offences. Theft is both (hybrid offence). To close investigations Gardaí have to show they have pursued every reasonable investigation avenue available. Not getting CCTV is neglect of duty.

lunamoon

Seems like a case for GSOC. I'd report it to them that you believe the Gardai didn't investigate your issue properly.

enricoh

My oul lads business got done last year, around 10k it cost between damage to premises and stuff robbed.
They took two cheques out of the back of the chequebook which were stopping by the bank and sent back to him.
He contacted the cops, the time, date, address n hatch no of the bank were stamped on them and two Romanian dopes had signed their own name on them!
Game, set and match we thought! How naive!
The cops didn't get around to asking the bank for CCTV and after 2 months iirc it was wiped.
Utterly useless.

KWAG2019

enricoh wrote: »

My oul lads business got done last year, around 10k it cost between damage to premises and stuff robbed.
They took two cheques out of the back of the chequebook which were stopping by the bank and sent back to him.
He contacted the cops, the time, date, address n hatch no of the bank were stamped on them and two Romanian dopes had signed their own name on them!
Game, set and match we thought! How naive!
The cops didn't get around to asking the bank for CCTV and after 2 months iirc it was wiped.
Utterly useless.

And where is the root and branch approach reform to this?

seagull

Have you asked the gym to watch back the CCTV and see if there is anything on the recording showing the theft from your car?

GM228

Azizur Rahman wrote: »

There has been reported displinenary action taken against Gardaí who didn't follow up an investigation.
E.g https://www.thejournal.ie/garda-gsoc-complaints-4635954-May2019/.

Gardaí have discretion with summary offences but not indictable offences. Theft is both (hybrid offence). To close investigations Gardaí have to show they have pursued every reasonable investigation avenue available. Not getting CCTV is neglect of duty.

A Judicial Review would sort that out very quickly, they have discretion in all their duties and powers, not just in relation to indictable or summary offences.

A requirement to follow a code issued by the Policing Authority does not trump the law, a common law privilege which is protected by Statute.

Garda disciplinary actions are often wrong in law, here's two posts on the points made:-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=109534046&postcount=125

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110274180

Previously a member of Gardaí could be prosecuted for failure to investigate a crime, but only if it was (a) a felony (which was a serious crime) and (b) there was a named suspect, but it's no longer the case.

KWAG2019

I see tonight on Sky that that Criminal Bar Association in the UK has said theft has effectively been decriminalized due to the failure of the police to prosecute it.

Samuel T. Cogley

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I see tonight on Sky that that Criminal Bar Association in the UK has said theft has effectively been decriminalized due to the failure of the police to prosecute it.

Add to that the proposed prohibition of short sentences in England and Wales and you just have the criminal fraternity laughing at everyone else.

GM228

KWAG2019 wrote: »

I see tonight on Sky that that Criminal Bar Association in the UK has said theft has effectively been decriminalized due to the failure of the police to prosecute it.

Probably taken out of context, they essentially said the public may feel that, not that it has happened, and it's based on personal theft statistics in four forces only so does not necessarily represent the UK as a whole.

The comment is following a fall in potential charge and the exact comment from the CBA was "If charging rates fall to close to or even zero, then the public fast feels offences are in effect being decriminalised".

ohnonotgmail

GM228 wrote: »

Probably taken out of context, they essentially said the public may feel that, not that it has happened, and it's based on personal theft statistics in four forces only so does not necessarily represent the UK as a whole.

The comment is following a fall in potential charge and the exact comment from the CBA was "If charging rates fall to close to or even zero, then the public fast feels offences are in effect being decriminalised".

so do we know what the charging rates are?

ghost of ireland past

I don't agree that the Gardai can refuse to investigate crime.

I do agree that perhaps individual members of the Gardai can do what they want, (that may be true, I don't know), but the Garda as an an organisation have to investigate serious crime, and probably all crime.


What about this?
Article 13 of the European Convention on Human Rights, effective remedy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights wrote:

Article 13 – effective remedy
Article 13 provides for the right for an effective remedy before national authorities for violations of rights under the Convention. The inability to obtain a remedy before a national court for an infringement of a Convention right is thus a free-standing and separately actionable infringement of the Convention.

People have a right to an effective remedy when their rights are breached and I'd argue that that includes the right to have crimes investigated, with a view to having a court case afterwards.

ghost of ireland past

This case involved the theft of property, and the Gardai apparently have not investigated properly.

Irish Constitution, Article 40.3 wrote:

3.1 The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.
3.2 The State shall, in particular, by its laws protect as best it may from unjust attack and, in the case of injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good name, and property rights of every citizen.

The State shall, in particular, ... in the case of injustice done, vindicate the ... property rights of every citizen.


I would suggest that the State is required to attempt to vindicate your rights here, as explicitily stated in the constitution.

Your property rights were infringed. The state must attempt to vindicate them.

GM228

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so do we know what the charging rates are?

300 cases from four forces in the UK were 5.4%, with personal theft at 1.3%.

GM228

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

I don't agree that the Gardai can refuse to investigate crime.

I do agree that perhaps individual members of the Gardai can do what they want, (that may be true, I don't know), but the Garda as an an organisation have to investigate serious crime, and probably all crime.


What about this?
Article 13 of the European Convention on Human Rights, effective remedy.


People have a right to an effective remedy when their rights are breached and I'd argue that that includes the right to have crimes investigated, with a view to having a court case afterwards.

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

This case involved the theft of property, and the Gardai apparently have not investigated properly.



The State shall, in particular, ... in the case of injustice done, vindicate the ... property rights of every citizen.


I would suggest that the State is required to attempt to vindicate your rights here, as explicitily stated in the constitution.

Your property rights were infringed. The state must attempt to vindicate them.

We can agree/disagree all we like but it has been well settled by the courts in many jurisdictions.

There have been a few Irish cases dealing with this issue and the question of liability for failure to investigate and there has been no issue of unconstitutionality. Article 40 requires the state to vindicate the property rights as best it can, however, members of AGS are independent of AGS as an organisation and the state.

And the ECtHR has already dealt with the issue and has held that there is scope for domestic law to apply a more restrictive liability standard than that afforded by the ECHR in favour of the Police in applying a "fair, just and reasonable" test, and it was fair, just and reasonable to restrict liability to achieve the public policy objective of maintaining an effective Police service - it specifically dealt with discretion and the ability to hold Police accountable in actions of negligence for failures in relation to their investigatory and prosecutorial powers.

ohnonotgmail

GM228 wrote: »

300 cases from four forces in the UK were 5.4%, with personal theft at 1.3%.

1.3% is almost effectively 0 so i can understand if people feel that theft from people has been effectively decrminalised.

ghost of ireland past

Do the police serve the public or not?

Are the police at war with the public?

I get that impression from reading some posts here. The police are supposed to serve the public, not deny them services and lie to them.

The standards in the Gardai seem to be extremely low.

Perhaps we should bring back respect for the truth.

Hoboo

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

The standards in the Gardai seem to be extremely low.

The majority wouldn't be setting the world alight in any other profession to be fair. The requirements to join the force seem to be signs of a pulse and tie your laces to a reasonable standard. Walked by Kildare St entrance to government buildings on Wednesday and the gatekeeper was on her phone wetting herself laughing.

ghost of ireland past

The fact that we can't tell the truth about drugs as a society is having a serious impact on our ability to tell the truth about anything.

There are too many criminals in our police force and that is being ignored. Our politicians are terrible, and our society is being seriously damaged as a result.

If no-one can interfere with a Guard in the course of his duties, and that includes the police commissioner apparently, then why has no guard arrested Martin Callinan for his crimes, or Supt. Dave Taylor?

Those criminals (Martin and Dave) are above the law and are being protected by politicians and by other guards. If a Guard attempted to arrest Martin Callinan he would be suspended or fired.

It is shameful and a disgrace, and not something to be proud of.

GM228

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

There are too many criminals in our police force and that is being ignored. Our politicians are terrible, and our society is being seriously damaged as a result.

This thread turned sour fairly quickly.

AndrewJRenko

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

If no-one can interfere with a Guard in the course of his duties, and that includes the police commissioner apparently, then why has no guard arrested Martin Callinan for his crimes, or Supt. Dave Taylor?

What particular crimes are you referring to here?

Azizur Rahman

GM228 wrote: »

A Judicial Review would sort that out very quickly, they have discretion in all their duties and powers, not just in relation to indictable or summary offences.



Previously a member of Gardaí could be prosecuted for failure to investigate a crime, but only if it was (a) a felony (which was a serious crime) and (b) there was a named suspect, but it's no longer the case.

The fact is (and which is in accordance with the law) a member of Gardaí can't be disciplined for neglect of duty when there is "good and sufficient cause" for that neglect of duty.

Last paragraph above pulled for one of the links you posted, surely any Garda to not be disciplined for not carrying out an investigation would find it tough to show they had a good and sufficient cause to not do so?