GE2020: Kildare North

L1011 wrote: »

Both more easily fixable than extending city buses to an outer outer suburb

And they won’t be fixed, as stated by the NTA many times. I’d rather be capped at 20€ on a Dublin bus service each week like everyone else in comparable towns than that abysmal commuter coach service which is about 70€ per week (With no caps, and isn’t integrated into the system and never will be).

Also DART/electrification won’t be coming to Naas, as stated by the NTA.

I’m not defending her, but Naas’ transport infrastructure is worse than any commuter town of its size and distance from the city. People who actually use the incompetent commuter coaches would far prefer a Dublin Bus like Greystones, Maynooth, Celbridge, Blessington, Bray, etc.

L1011 wrote: »

Cap for DB is something like 33.50, not 20.

She's pushing for Luas - barely faster than DB, albeit much higher capacity to Naas.... that shows the incompetent level of knowledge being shown.

Dublin Bus to Naas would take about two and a half hours each way. The buses are limited to 65km/h. There is nothing other than ambition stopping a reduced price and vastly superior service by coach as well as integration to the Dublin cap system. Calling for a crap service to be extended instead of fixing a better one is ridiculous

Cronin is the least competent and least suited person to ever get elected as a TD in this constituency - there really is no defence possible there and I'm amazed at some of the attempted defences that other posters have tried here. She was resoundingly rejected as a Councillor due to her (lack of) service as one; and got in on a national shrug.


Contact your competent local reps - Murphy, Lawless, Durkan in that order of competence tbh - about the pricing/scheduling issues for Naas/Kilcock. Naas is already in the Dublin train pricing zone so extending that for bus is entirely logical.

Oh sorry, 27,50€ per week cap on Dublin bus. I’m a student so it’s 20€, my mistake. 27€ is still more than half of the 70€+ you’d be paying using the “commuter coaches”. I know all about this because I used them for years. For the final year of my degree, I bought a car to save me money and time cause the transport was too expensive for what you’re getting. 70€ to UCD every week, no thanks.

The buses are limited to 65km/h, yes. Are the people of Maynooth and Greystones complaining? Do you see people from Greystones flocking to the Wicklow commuter coach service? Nope. I have used the commuter Bus Eireann service so many times and a Bus Eireann city bus showed up, and it was still in Naas in under an hour. Dunno where you’re getting the 2.5 hours from. 84X is an interesting route, goes way way further than Naas distance. I never quite got why city buses are suited to go galavanting around the Wicklow mountains (184, 183, 65, etc) yet they are not suited for the N7 corridor. They are suited to literally every other town of equal size/distance on the commuter belt, not Naas.

I (and many I know) have contacted all the TD’s and the NTA. They said that it’s not in the Dublin bus network so there’s nothing that can be done. So you can get from Ballyknockan in the middle of the Wicklow mountains for cheaper than Naas. Lovely. The NTA and the TD’s don’t care. If the 126 was integrated into the Dublin bus network fare, great. It still wouldn’t be reliable, it still wouldn’t arrive on time, but at least it would be affordable.

I’m sorry if I come off as aggressive, but I hate when people try to defend the abysmal transport in Naas. Fine, it’s crap, I accept that but then at least make it the same price of equivalent sized/distance towns. Having slaved away at this transport system for college, it has honestly made me drop out at times. And then seeing my friends from Maynooth or Bray (theoretically newtownmountkennedy, Newcastle, balbriggan, etc) being capped at 20€ is just SO frustrating you have no idea. Like why are all these random places (Balbriggan, Newcastle, co. Wicklow, Ballymore Eustace) further from the city on the Dublin bus network but not Naas which is 30km from the city and a way larger population? Doesn’t make any sense to me. Never has. Never will. Not worth double/tripple price increase.

L1011 wrote: »

I was never trying to defend transport in Naas. Step waaaaaay back if you thought so, and read again.

Plenty of people in Maynooth and Greystones complain about the speed of the DB buses, and use rail as an alternative - that's where the people of Greystones go. Both would be delighted with suitably priced coaches.

I'm getting the 2.5h from the actual runtime of equivalent distance routes - I didn't just make it up. The long distance DB routes in to the mountains are a relic of the old tramway firms - not a suggestion that having city buses doing such routes is a good idea. The "faster"DB buses you've got are either belted or breaking the law.

Contacting the NTA does nothing. Contact actually useful local representatives. If they give a simplistic response, push back and push hard. Pointless long term "local representatives" across all parties have convinced many of them of dated, stupid responses.

An awful politician soundbiting about Luas - slower than any coach - to outer suburbs does you worse than nothing. They damage the argument with nonsense.

My point is I have contacted and pushed back, as have many I know because people are fed up here. They don’t care. The only one that cares is Catherine Murphy who sees the need for DART to Naas, but has parroted the same that Dublin Bus prices are Dublin Bus prices and commuter coach prices are that way cause they’re not on the Dublin bus network. Every single TD says that over and over and over. Hence my argument, put a Dublin Bus in the area, which would cause the prices to suddenly drop, and the private operators would also have to drop their prices too as a result of that so people can have normal bus prices in the area.

L1011 wrote: »

So Catherine Murphy doesn't understand your argument. Not much use to get a useless response.

Do you actually want two and a half hour journey times in to the city? Because that's what you'll get with Dublin Bus

Addtionally, Dublin Bus to Naas would probably be a 4.50+ fare - are you OK with that? DB are not inherently cheaper.

You do not understand how fares are determined, not even vaguely.

What you want seem to want is the state to pour a pile of subsidy on to the Naas-Dublin route. If they're going to do that, you should want it to be via subsidising coaches not subsiding double decker city buses

What I want is the LEAP cap, the LEAP 90 discount, and the use of a rambler ticket like every other student I know who’s fortunate not to live in Naas. So yes, I would prefer that than paying my entire weekend’s paycheque from work on bus fares because of the technicality that “it’s not in the Dublin bus network”. It would allow so many more students in Naas to go to UCD and DCU, and open so many doors for them. I know a guy who dropped out of UCD due to transport costs. I don’t think you realise how costly the fares are from Naas due to lack of capping or transfer ability. I’ve been charged 5€ to go from Naas North to Naas South on the bus, when you complain they hand you the Go-Ahead customer care card. Lovely transport system. Literally costs the Dublin Bus cap to travel 4 kilometres.

I could type all night and tell you so many other stories about how bad the system is. My point is that the politicians don’t care because they parrot every excuse not to change it, they say the law would have to be changed in order to change the fares cause Naas is Bus Eireann territory. I know of at 20-30 people who have contacted TD’s about it. For years I have seen petitions on Facebook about the need to complain to TD’s, etc. Nothing has changed and nothing will change.

I keep being told it is not in the Dublin bus network, hence we should have no caps, LEAP integration or a just fare. And now, years later, I have come to the conclusion that it’s the only way to get the fares to change. I know a Dublin Bus or a Luas would be slow and inefficient compared to a commuter coach, but that’s not the point. It’s about expanding the transport network that works for everyone at a reasonable cost. It currently doesn’t work for everyone, and that is evident from the lack of bus usage. When you compare bus usage stats in Naas to smaller towns like Greystones, it has less usage. How does that make sense?

How does it make sense to charge someone from Naas to Blanch 12€ return journey on a city bus? Can you please explain that to me. Could you also explain why the 184 benefits from Dublin City bus prices, and doesn’t enter county Dublin also?

Could you point out specifically about what I don’t understand about fare determinations?

City Buses in Naas this morning. They are more than ideal for the the Naas/Sallins area.

L1011 wrote: »

Leap90 etc can be extended to BE/GAI buses for less cost, effort and disruption than providing slow city buses to a town that's far too far out to be served with slow city buses.

It would cost a massive amount in subsidy, which is why there is a limit to how far its offered and that appears to what you aren't understanding. Its not operation by Dublin Bus that determines where it goes to; its a decision by the NTA. DB legacy routes from the steam tram era (All the Wicklow hills ones) are not really relevant here.

You are basically chasing the crap option (city buses) not the proper option (extension of Leap90 and the GDA fare areas to BE/GAI). There is zero guarantee that DB would actually charge GDA fares if service was introduced to Naas anyway.

What you say makes sense. But what I’m telling you is that both the NTA and TD’s have said to me (and many others I know) that the prices are the way they are for the sole reason that it’s not in the Dublin Bus Network and therefore it’s not possible to change them in the current system. And as they are also not in the BusConnects network, it will also be terrible then unless you know something I do not? AND therefore, people of Naas are heavily disadvantaged relative to those in Greystones, Maynooth, or Blessington as a result (people have to think in advance about cost of journeys, people can’t catch connection busses due to cost, college students not going to certain Universities, people choosing to drive instead, etc etc.).

Imagine you’re a student living in Kill trying to get to Maynooth. You first have to take a 126 and then you have to take a 139. This can cost over 70€ per week. This is the reality of the situation.

It’s also funny to hear people praising the quality of the commuter coach service when I’ve experienced first hand, having lived in both Naas and Greystones, what I would rather have. By far. (I’ve had white coaches turn up with “126” written on a piece of A4 paper countless time’s for example).

GavMan wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. You say the fares are as they are because Naas is not served by the DB network and hence the fare structure.

However, the reality is that if DB turned out tomorrow and said, we want to service Naas and Sallins with a new route, it would not be a given that the DB far structure as you know it now would apply to that route because DB do not set the fare. The NTA set the fair and for all you know they could stick their finger in the wind and say the leap cap is €60 on that route. Not quite the saving you imagined versus private coaches. But now you're stuck with inappropriate vehicles that are limited to 65kph

You may have been fobbed off with the answer that fares are high because you are outside of the DB network but that is not reality.

Of course I'm being fobbed off because the NTA themselves don't even know what the rationale behind their own fares is.

From an NTA official:

Part of the rationale behind adjustments in fares is to ensure that all public transport passengers pay a fare that reflects the distance travelled.

Bus fares [in the GDA] are determined by a combination of distance travelled and the Short Hop Zone (SHZ).

LEAP supported facilities such as capping currently apply to bus and rail services within the SHZ. The software which currently supports LEAP capping has limitations that prevent its use beyond the SHZ.

They've contradicted themselves in all three of the these bullet points.
1. No... Fares do not reflect the distance travelled, as I've already mentioned in previous posts Naas is far closer or equidistant to other areas currently being served by Dublin Bus services and Dublin Bus fare structure.

2. No they are not determined by distance or whether a town is in the SHZ. There are many Dublin Bus routes that disprove this entire point. Also, do the NTA not know Naas is in the SHZ and closer to the city than many of these other routes?

3. Again... Naas is in the SHZ. This reads like "basically you're being overcharged cause software". What? If the software can't provide caps on the commuter buses, then maybe change the overpriced fare and then implement caps ASAP? What a joke.

Also there is such a big deal about the use of city buses... So many times Bus Eireann used a city bus for this route (and still overcharged us) and it made very little difference to the time of the journey. About 5/6 mins max? The 126 spends about 12km at speeds of over 65km/h going about 80-90km/h. A route 69X could be provided for Naas/Kill/Rathcoole as a route for those who want to be capped and transfer buses without financial penalty. Then we'd see which bus would be more popular, and I am certain it would be the one that has caps and 90 discount. Also, could someone please answer me as to why route 184 has Dublin Bus fare structure and does not even enter Dublin? Why is a Wicklow bus route using Dublin City fares? That disproves everything the NTA are saying.

The only conclusion I can draw from the exchanges with the NTA/politicians is that JJ Kavanagh or some private operator who are making an absolute fortune overcharging students are lobbying to keep fares as they are. NTA director Anne Graham states that the NTA aims to "allow seamless movement between different transport services without financial penalty".... unless you're in Naas. 70€ from Kill to Maynooth per week via 126 and 139. What a mess. People assume everyone is going to the city centre, do people realise that many who work or study in Dublin aren't actually going to the city centre and have to take a subsequent bus? This goes over 15€ per day with a LEAP card, much worse with cash.

If fares were a little little more expensive in Naas, I would say "okay that's not right but I can live with it" but the reality of the situation is that students (and adults) are paying up to 4x the price. Thats not justice, that's discrimination. And not one TD, person on this forum, or the NTA can give me an explanation (that makes sense) as to why that is.

Off topic... maybe this could be the general north Kildare thread?

How have we got lumped in with those south Kildare people again?

L1011 wrote: »

Naas is in Kildare North and is affected, as is part of Timahoe I think.

The three/four (Kilcock is borderline) towns in the North East really need to be seen as Not Kildare for everything except GAA.

Yeah, back to the Baronies. Counties are far too big and diverse!!

Slightly on/off topic -

Given the current lock down, interesting to see Lawless tweeting away (although having pointless spat with SF at times), looking active, on radio

Cronin, tweeting away, meeting businesses, sniping a bit but so what, on radio

Murphy, out meeting people and businesses, tweeting and retweeting, on radio

Durkan - nothing, not a single comment

And I say this as someone who gave him number 1 last election




Edit: and typical, as soon as I post I see he's tweeted 30 mins ago.....

Bring Frank back... I can imagine the photo ops now, him in full PPE fighting covid