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Champions Cup 2019/20

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12357…26

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    #122
    171170
    Closed Accounts Posts: 321 ✭✭171170


    errlloyd wrote: »

    I've not problem with Irish players receiving top ups.

    How about Saracens' players?


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    #123
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Because you're a Connacht supporter and the chips they carry are visible from space.

    Is there really a need for that?


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    #124
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    awec wrote: »
    Why is it a problem to have multiple clubs owned by a single owner?

    Because sporting integrity is tarnished. This is why it is not allowed in pretty much every other sport. How can you have a serious league if the clubs are not independent entities?

    It is incredibly convenient for the IRFU, for example, that their 4 teams happen to be playing each other for the next three weeks, which conveniently happens to be right before another pair of euro fixtures. So, very conveniently, the IRFU will be able to instruct all their teams to take it handy for the next few weeks and will go into these euro games nice and fresh, but not having cost them anything in the league since they all got to trade a few points among each other.

    If the pro14 weren't so weird, and the IRFU only owned 1 team, then they could of course tell that team to rest their players, but there would be absolutely nothing to prevent the opposition going full strength and putting 50+ points on them. There wouldn't be these convenient runs of fixtures, placed at nice little times during the season.

    This is one of the English (and French) issues. They don't have periods in their season where they are guaranteed to play soft fixtures, because the guy who owns Leicester has absolutely no influence over the guy who owns Saracens. This is how it's supposed to be.

    The setup of the Pro14 is nonsense, which is absolutely one of the reasons why interest in it lags behind England and France, and why it struggles to attract any serious media interest. The only time you see teams go at each other full tilt is during the playoffs at the end of the year.
    Irish rugby wouldnt be in the position of strength that it is in without the way irfu have ran things to date.

    In a league with sides from 4 countries it makes sense to have local derbies in aand around Christmas to reduce travel and remove players from travelling abroad in this period. Yes it's in between Europe but not playing or going abroad. Is that really what you want?

    The pro14 cant be compared to English, French leagues ultimately. Because of its creation and history. It exists as without it pro rugby at non national league wiuldnt survive as national league in Ireland or Wales wouldn't be sustainable alone
    Media interest wont be same. Population and therefore everything else will be so much smaller.

    molloyjh wrote: »
    For as long as I remember French sides have been sending weakened teams on the road more than not. It's odd how that is conveniently forgotten when this argument comes up all the time.
    all the time. Look at home and away win rates over long period. And we can just look at what so many Irish players who've played in France have said about how the French playwrs/teams treat away games. So often they just dont bother.
    molloyjh wrote: »
    This. That's a financial thing given the revenues in their leagues. We get our money from the national team and then Europe with the league being the smallest earner. Hence our priorities are fundamentally different. This is simple reality. People can balk against it all they want but it's not going to change.
    never will especially considering we had Europe and everything else in place before league ever existed sure the European cup was running 3/4 years before the old interpro series expanded from 3 games to 6 didnt it?
    awec wrote: »
    Maybe true, but it is certainly frustrating that the competition we watch week in, week out, is run in such a half arsed manner for a competition we see much less of.

    The imbalance is far too great IMO. I get that our league is never going to be amazing, but it should be better than it is.
    you are comparing it to top14/English premier when realistically you cant for reasons as posted above/elsewhere
    jacothelad wrote: »
    What about if they scored 4 tries at the beginning of the game and then got hammered later?...

    It's not a perfect system but it serves a purpose and keeps games alive right to the end in many circumstances. I am much more concerned with the appalling level of refereeing which ruins game after game and TMOs who appear the be related more to Helen Keller and Blind Dave than to rugby and it's laws.
    what do you change to improve reffing though?
    Dubinusa wrote: »
    We turn out more lads from our academies than the premiership sides. Our young players get tested regularly, and will progress. England have one a couple of u20 rwc's and few of these lads get their chance!
    How would the likes of Lyttle and Shane Daly progress if the provinces only played the 1st team lads.
    The premiership is not stacked with great teams. 3 or 4 of them would lag in the pro14.
    there has been plenty of those England u20s world cup winning sides involved in senior set up and quite a few played in the world cup!


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    #125
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,844 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    171170 wrote: »
    How about Saracens' players?


    Saracens exist under a legally defined salary cap. Irish provinces don't. Therefore comparing one to the other is quite pointless (and disingenuous)


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    #126
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,434 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Posts about champions cup changes moved to here


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    #127
    171170
    Closed Accounts Posts: 321 ✭✭171170


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Saracens exist under a legally defined salary cap. Irish provinces don't. Therefore comparing one to the other is quite pointless (and disingenuous)

    No they don't!

    They play in a domestic competition with a "legally defined salary cap" and in an international tournament that doesn't have one.

    This is the thread about the latter.


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    #128
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    171170 wrote: »
    No they don't!

    They play in a domestic competition with a "legally defined salary cap" and in an international tournament that doesn't have one.

    This is the thread about the latter.

    Then so what, I don't see anyone complaining about them?


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    #129
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,167 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    prawnsambo wrote: »

    There's never much (if any) talk of French clubs under pressure financially. Gate receipts would form a big part of their income and then there's also the 'sugar daddy' factor. They've always had massive budgets, so something has to be keeping that money flowing in.

    You've a short memory. The Basque clubs and SF/Racing were close to merging/folding due to financial problems only a couple of seasons ago. The financial regulator has a full time job auditing the Pro D2 clubs.


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    #130
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,844 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Colorado Rapids folding as a result of covid19. Could we see some more go?

    Wrong thread? And it's Raptors. The Rapids are the MLS team.

    From reading this article it seems that they were gone anyway. They're not folding, but are pulling out of MLR. http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2020/04/09/colorado-raptors-withdraw-from-major-league-rugby/


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    #131
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    The Champions Cup possibly to be completed in October and next seasons competition to be an 18 team version

    Given the talk of completing the 6n etc, something will have to give because that is way too much rugby being shoehorned into a single season.

    I would not be surprised if the Lions your was put back a year. Also Will SA really allow 50000 ppl travel freely having arrived from the UK for the most part?


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    #132
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,183 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    It's an interesting proposal and potentially the only viable approach in terms of time frames. The QF would be played in September and the semi and final in October.

    There would be significant opposition to it no doubt as it would eliminate teams from the tournament next year including Connacht, potentially. The finalists would also be pretty shattered by the time the 6N arrives depending on what the rest of the rugby schedule is like. You could have someone play 4 pool games, 3 knock out games and an autumn series of test rugby by the end of January along with a few interpros/league games.

    The Leinster vs Saracens game would be fascinating. Saracens have not really lost many guys at all. Their 23 would be weaker but their starting XV would still be just as strong really.


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    #133
    gp1990
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭gp1990


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    The Champions Cup possibly to be completed in October and next seasons competition to be an 18 team version

    Given the talk of completing the 6n etc, something will have to give because that is way too much rugby being shoehorned into a single season.

    I would not be surprised if the Lions your was put back a year. Also Will SA really allow 50000 ppl travel freely having arrived from the UK for the most part?

    I wonder would another issue with the Lions be a clash with Euro 20201?

    With Wales and England both qualified and the two Irelands (and Scotland I think?) in a playoff, it will surely take away some of the more casual rugby supporters who may have been looking to travel to SA given there was no other major sporting event set for summer 2021 initially. As well as that the Lions would lose out on a lot of coverage and maybe ratings too if clashing with some Euro matches.

    It wouldn't be enough of a reason on its own to move it back to 2022 but might contribute to a drop in revenue like the more obvious factors you mentioned


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    #134
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,434 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If they're going to try squeeze champions cup and six nations games into the start of next season can we just forget about the pro14 ?


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    #135
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    awec wrote: »
    If they're going to try squeeze champions cup and six nations games into the start of next season can we just forget about the pro14 ?

    I really don't get the incredible aggro you have for the pro14 awec. If it bothers you that much I'd just suggest not watching or following it.


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    #136
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,019 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    I predict no EC tournaments will be completed. No rugby in France until September. Late August is surely the cut off point for the end of this season.


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    #137
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,926 ✭✭✭OldRio


    I see the French are being French for next season. Just what was needed.

    They want 8 French teams to qualify instead of 6


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    #138
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,902 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    Not clear how you could justify 8. I think if it is going to stay 20, it should be 6, 6, 6 and additional spots to the winners or the leagues from which the winners came for the Champions and Challenge Cup.

    If truth be told, I think the idea of shrinking to 16 has merit with 5.5.5 and one place for the Champions Cup winner which goes to the runner up if qualified and to the Challenge Cup winner or runner up if the CC finalists are both in.


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    #139
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    8 teams would mean a team or two will end up phoning it in because they will be in relegation trouble and won't have the depth to play on both fronts.


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    #140
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    FFS why you all support English in reducing this competition?
    We need to enlarge it this season, a big party with Clermont, Toulouse and Connacht in it, not a malthusian way to let most club being poorer and less attractive..
    Spread, not shrink


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    #141
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    connachta wrote: »
    FFS why you all support English in reducing this competition?
    We need to enlarge it this season, a big party with Clermont, Toulouse and Connacht in it, not a malthusian way to let most club being poorer and less attractive..
    Spread, not shrink


    1. Logistics of a cross border comp whilst dealing with the remnants of a global pandemic. 18 teams far more manageable then 24 if testing is part of the equation

    2. Lower teams in French or English leagues battling relegation may give up and that creates an unbalanced competition

    3. We dont even know when there will be rugby in the NH again and what form it may take. Cross border comp might not even be viable until 2021 as different govts take different approaches



    If ERCC is expanded then the top 3 from Ireland, 3 from Wales, 1 from Scotland and 1 from Italy make up the 8 from pro14? Is that fairer?


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    #142
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    1. Logistics of a cross border comp whilst dealing with the remnants of a global pandemic. 18 teams far more manageable then 24 if testing is part of the equation

    2. Lower teams in French or English leagues battling relegation may give up and that creates an unbalanced competition

    3. We dont even know when there will be rugby in the NH again and what form it may take. Cross border comp might not even be viable until 2021 as different govts take different approaches


    YES, Hope not

    If ERCC is expanded then the top 3 from Ireland, 3 from Wales, 1 from Scotland and 1 from Italy make up the 8 from pro14? Is that fairer?

    NO. But At least you admit it makes 8




    '


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    #143
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    I move that burkie and connachta be given their own thread.

    As many as are of that opinion, SAY AYE.


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    #144
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,607 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    I move that burkie and connachta be given their own thread.

    As many as are of that opinion, SAY AYE.

    Shut up Bu.....

    Aye.


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    #145
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    giphy.gif


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    #146
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,175 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    I move that burkie and connachta be given their own thread.

    As many as are of that opinion, SAY AYE.
    AYE
    Is that all we have to do?


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    #147
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    connachta wrote: »
    We need to enlarge it this season, a big party with Clermont, Toulouse and Connacht in it, not a malthusian way to let most club being poorer and less attractive..
    Spread, not shrink

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsRjQDrDnY8



    Nonetheless I don't understand why the French would want more teams in a competition that half their teams already don't care about. Apart from money obviously. But its hard to take them seriously.


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    #148
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    connachta wrote: »
    '

    Why is it not fair?

    Surely a big party with teams from all 6 unions taking part is what you want?

    Looking at other countries such as Germany, no cross border travel involved and the Bundesliga teams are having to jump through massive hoops to get games played behind closed doors (same as the 5 NZ teams for the upcoming return to rugby there) Even then there is still players who are failing to comply with every guideline, players contracting covid19 etc and it makes it very clear there is going to be some tough decisions ahead regarding what gets played

    Wales has effectively been partitioned from England temporarily with two stadiums set up as field hospitals. Scotland has followed it's own path.

    My Guess is domestic competitions will go ahead in September behind closed doors and possibly the pro14 will start with local derbies played en block with maybe some cross border games between the countries with two teams in it to see what the requirements are for fulfilling a greater fixture list. European cup may or may not get played next season. By not playing it frees up weekends to maybe have a mini break at Xmas to avoid cross border travel at the busiest time of year if the local derbies are all played earlier in season.

    We may even only have the tail end of this pro14 season played to a conclusion by this time next year.


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    #149
    connachta
    Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    Burkie1203 wrote: »
    Why is it not fair?

    Surely a big party with teams from all 6 unions taking part is what you want?

    Looking at other countries such as Germany, no cross border travel involved and the Bundesliga teams are having to jump through massive hoops to get games played behind closed doors (same as the 5 NZ teams for the upcoming return to rugby there) Even then there is still players who are failing to comply with every guideline, players contracting covid19 etc and it makes it very clear there is going to be some tough decisions ahead regarding what gets played

    Wales has effectively been partitioned from England temporarily with two stadiums set up as field hospitals. Scotland has followed it's own path.

    My Guess is domestic competitions will go ahead in September behind closed doors and possibly the pro14 will start with local derbies played en block with maybe some cross border games between the countries with two teams in it to see what the requirements are for fulfilling a greater fixture list. European cup may or may not get played next season. By not playing it frees up weekends to maybe have a mini break at Xmas to avoid cross border travel at the busiest time of year if the local derbies are all played earlier in season.

    We may even only have the tail end of this pro14 season played to a conclusion by this time next year.


    Qualification on merit.
    As the season could not go the the end, enlarge to those would could have qualified



    Top 8 on each league. Fair. Full-blank


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    #150
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    On the contrary, NO?


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    #151
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    connachta wrote: »
    Top 8 on each league. Fair.

    But... didn't you think that the top 6 from each league was completely unfair?


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