Champions Cup 2019/20

AbusesToilets · 02-09-2020 2:02pm

Awful format. They should've just gone to a straight knock out tournament with top 4 teams in each league, with a bye or such

The Lost Sheep · 02-09-2020 2:06pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Awful format. They should've just gone to a straight knock out tournament with top 4 teams in each league, with a bye or such

Why would you reduce the number of games by such a large amount?
Its a terrible format but straight knock out would be far worse

Kevski · 02-09-2020 2:08pm

If each team will play two other teams, home and away, then would 8 groups of 3 teams not have been a more straightforward format...?

Cookiemunster · 02-09-2020 2:09pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Crazy format. At least in other years if you won all your games you were guaranteed a quarter final spot. Now you could win all your games and still not qualify because another team you didn't even get to play had an easier draw.

But if 8 teams qualify for the QFs and it's only possible for 6 to win all their games, then that's not correct.

Buer · 02-09-2020 2:15pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

But if 8 teams qualify for the QFs and it's only possible for 6 to win all their games, then that's not correct.

It's possible for 6 teams in each pool to win all of their games. 12 in total.

But it's just a hypothetical situation and very unlikely.

No matter what format they go with, people are going to complain.

Hurrache · 02-09-2020 2:33pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

So basically its a competition to see how much the Tier 1 teams can hump the Tier 4 teams by to see who tops the pools?

That's my take. Doesn't exactly introduce new opportunities like the explainer video implies.

AbusesToilets · 02-09-2020 2:35pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Why would you reduce the number of games by such a large amount?
Its a terrible format but straight knock out would be far worse

The season is already compacted,.with a Lions tour to boot. I'd rather an actual "Elite" tournament, than this Mickey mouse effort.

connachta · 02-09-2020 2:52pm

So basically its a competition to see how much the Tier 1 teams can hump the Tier 4 teams by to see who tops the pools?

Again, no.

Sale won't "hamp" Montpellier at all, it might be the reverse.

Connacht and revamped Dragons are 100% able to beat Bordeaux or Lyon at home too.

Tiers don't mean anything, especially this year. Racing 2nd tier, Toulouse 3rd tier, they are not behind the above. Just haven't defended their chances after being weakened by international periods

The Lost Sheep · 02-09-2020 2:56pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

The season is already compacted,.with a Lions tour to boot. I'd rather an actual "Elite" tournament, than this Mickey mouse effort.

A straight knock out with far less teams wouldnt be better though

Podge_irl · 02-09-2020 3:07pm

molloyjh wrote: »

It isn't actually that confusing really, it's just the video goes through it too quickly. I also don't think it's actually skewed in favour of any tier either. The big teams that people want to avoid are the likes of Leinster, Exeter, Racing, Clermont and Toulouse. They are all scattered throughout the tiers. The way it is explained, i.e. tier 1 plays tier 4, sounds skewed. But when you look at the teams in those tiers you could be looking at Leinster playing Toulouse while Connacht play Edinburgh.

It is a bit of a mess though for just the 1 less game.

I’m sorry but that is absurd. It is 100% skewed in favour of tier 1 teams. They are playing teams that finished 7th and 8th in their domestic leagues and wouldn’t ordinarily even qualify for the competition! Toulouse are a stand out tier 4 team but even then we are assuming they will revert to form they didn’t show in the 2019-2020 season.

Cookiemunster · 02-09-2020 3:14pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I’m sorry but that is absurd. It is 100% skewed in favour of tier 1 teams. They are playing teams that finished 7th and 8th in their domestic leagues and wouldn’t ordinarily even qualify for the competition! Toulouse are a stand out tier 4 team but even then we are assuming they will revert to form they didn’t show in the 2019-2020 season.

That would be ECC home quarter finalists Toulouse who still had 9 league games to play and were the grand total of 2 points off 6th and 6 points off third place?

Too much emphasis is being put on where they were in the table without looking at how tight it actually was between second and eight.

Are you claiming that 6th place Clermont are going to be an easy touch too?

connachta · 02-09-2020 3:22pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That would be ECC home quarter finalists Toulouse who still had 9 league games to play and were the grand total of 2 points off 6th and 6 points off third place?

Too much emphasis is being put on where they were in the table without looking at how tight it actually was between second and eight.

Are you claiming that 6th place Clermont are going to be an easy touch too?

And Gloucester.
Even Dragons when their "fabulous 4" arrive.

There will be absolutely no "walkovers".

London Irish, Worcester, Castres might have been, but not those 24

Rigor Mortis · 02-09-2020 3:25pm

There are plenty of walkovers in there.

The gap between the top 5 or 6 teams in Europe and the rest is substantial and widening.

The reduction in the number of pool games means that the very rare surprise will have an exagerated impact.

AbusesToilets · 02-09-2020 3:34pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

A straight knock out with far less teams wouldnt be better though

I'd disagree with you on that point. Looking to the future, if a realigned season came to pass, a straightforward knockout Euro Comp would be my preference. After the completion of the leagues

connachta · 02-09-2020 3:39pm

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

There are plenty of walkovers in there.

The gap between the top 5 or 6 teams in Europe and the rest is substantial and widening.

The reduction in the number of pool games means that the very rare surprise will have an exagerated impact.

I 100% disagree

I bet Connacht/Dragons to beat Sale and Lyon and Bordeaux at home

The Lost Sheep · 02-09-2020 3:40pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'd disagree with you on that point. Looking to the future, if a realigned season came to pass, a straightforward knockout Euro Comp would be my preference. After the completion of the leagues

So we have fewer teams represented in europe and closing off game to the top elite. Why is that a good thing. We need to be looking at expanding the sport not looking inwards.
Its the same with international game and Ireland and 6 Nations need to do a lot more for Georgia etc and Rugby championship sides need to do way more for fijis etc

Podge_irl · 02-09-2020 3:42pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That would be ECC home quarter finalists Toulouse who still had 9 league games to play and were the grand total of 2 points off 6th and 6 points off third place?

Too much emphasis is being put on where they were in the table without looking at how tight it actually was between second and eight.

Are you claiming that 6th place Clermont are going to be an easy touch too?

They had a pretty easy group.

The French will always throw things for a loop a bit, particularly given their varying degrees of attachment to the Euro cup. But tier 1 teams will now avoid racing, Toulon and Clermont completely. Gloucester a much easier scalp than Bristol also. The glut of teams in 2-6 that tier 1 teams now miss completely is what we need to compare to tier 4 teams and the difference is noticeable.

Podge_irl · 02-09-2020 3:44pm

connachta wrote: »

I 100% disagree

I bet Connacht/Dragons to beat Sale and Lyon and Bordeaux at home

Bordeaux are guaranteed 2 games against Connacht or Dragons instead of potentially against Munster. They’ll be laughing.

connachta · 02-09-2020 3:50pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Bordeaux are guaranteed 2 games against Connacht or Dragons instead of potentially against Munster. They’ll be laughing.

Yeah they should laugh a wee bit less coming down at the Sportsground, like Toulouse, Montpelier, Gloucester, Harlequins, Sale, Wasps, before them

AbusesToilets · 02-09-2020 3:57pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So we have fewer teams represented in europe and closing off game to the top elite. Why is that a good thing. We need to be looking at expanding the sport not looking inwards.
Its the same with international game and Ireland and 6 Nations need to do a lot more for Georgia etc and Rugby championship sides need to do way more for fijis etc

I'd rather the Euro be an elite comp. There's enough scope with the leagues and Challenge cup for broadening the game at club level. There's also the simple fact that the calender is too full anyway, with the top level players absent far too often from their clubs. You can argue that it helps bring on new players, which has its merits, but it devalues the quality of the league when the best players don't play.

The Lost Sheep · 02-09-2020 3:59pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'd rather the Euro be an elite comp. There's enough scope with the leagues and Challenge cup for broadening the game at club level. There's also the simple fact that the calender is too full anyway, with the top level players absent far too often from their clubs. You can argue that it helps bring on new players, which has its merits, but it devalues the quality of the league when the best players don't play.

It would still be an elite competition and have best playing. Straight knockout two legged affairs works well in soccer and other sports but just wouldnt work as well in rugby

molloyjh · 02-09-2020 4:04pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

They had a pretty easy group.

So did Exeter and, in the end, Leinster.

Difficult draws happen. Look at Munsters pool in the 19/20 HEC. Slightly easier draws happen too.

Leinster playing Toulouse is not an easy draw. Munster could get Northampton and La Rochelle. Connacht could get Sale and Lyon. I'd take either of those over Harlequins and Toulouse any day.

Theres not much between a lot of the English sides at this stage. Its the French teams that we should all be looking at. And the likes of Lyon and La Rochelle have shown little interest in Europe to date. So yeah, one of Munster or Ulster will draw a tough French side. The other will draw a handy one. Leinster could just as easily draw either a tough one or a handy one too. Theres not a whole lot in it really.

Former Former · 02-09-2020 4:05pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Bordeaux are guaranteed 2 games against Connacht or Dragons instead of potentially against Munster. They’ll be laughing.

Surely Bordeaux could be playing a Tier 4 team from England?

molloyjh · 02-09-2020 4:08pm

Former Former wrote: »

Surely Bordeaux could be playing a Tier 4 team from England?

Both. They are up against Connacht/Dragons and Harlequins/Gloucester.

We've no idea how bothered they'll be with Europe though. Just look at La Rochelle and Lyon in recent years.

AbusesToilets · 02-09-2020 4:17pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It would still be an elite competition and have best playing. Straight knockout two legged affairs works well in soccer and other sports but just wouldnt work as well in rugby

I understand this year is a aberration, but you can hardly say that having 8 teams from each league represents the elite. I also think that if you have it as a straight knockout, you're more apt to get better motivation for the competition from the French teams, than you do currently.

sydthebeat · 02-09-2020 4:58pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It would still be an elite competition and have best playing. Straight knockout two legged affairs works well in soccer and other sports but just wouldnt work as well in rugby

any competition where 60% of the possible teams which can qualify for it, qualifies for it... can certainly not be considered an elite competition.

I accept its an once off for next season, but even a 20 team comp has 50% of the possible teams qualifying for it..... very hard to consider than an elite competition either.

Podge_irl · 02-09-2020 5:39pm

Former Former wrote: »

Surely Bordeaux could be playing a Tier 4 team from England?

Bordeaux will play a tier 4 team from England. And one from PRO14. And if they are in any way competent they will qualify for the QFs ridiculously easily.

Podge_irl · 02-09-2020 5:42pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Leinster playing Toulouse is not an easy draw. Munster could get Northampton and La Rochelle. Connacht could get Sale and Lyon. I'd take either of those over Harlequins and Toulouse any day.

Why? Sale seem pretty comfortably better than Quins at the moment. The only reason Toulouse seems like a worse draw is because they generally take the competition more seriously. Considering how easily the French Tier 1 teams should be able to qualify this time I’m not sure they’ll be so abject. But let’s see.

The benefit for Irish teams is definitely less but there is a massive disparity in the way this is being run for everyone.

connachta · 02-09-2020 6:01pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Bordeaux will play a tier 4 team from England. And one from PRO14. And if they are in any way competent they will qualify for the QFs ridiculously easily.

So you bet Bordeaux to win away to Gloucester, Harlerquins and Connacht or new Dragons?
Which is the only way to go through (and still not certain as said above)
How many would you bet?
I'm 90% sure they'll lost at least one

Podge_irl · 02-09-2020 6:03pm

connachta wrote: »

So you bet Bordeaux to win away to Gloucester, Harlerquins and Connacht or new Dragons?
Which is the only way to go through (and still not certain as said above)
How many would you bet?
I'm 90% sure they'll lost at least one

I bet them to do better than they would against Munster and Northampton yes. Which is all that matters.

The Lost Sheep · 02-09-2020 6:20pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I understand this year is a aberration, but you can hardly say that having 8 teams from each league represents the elite. I also think that if you have it as a straight knockout, you're more apt to get better motivation for the competition from the French teams, than you do currently.

You would see far less interest if its straight knockout as the sides would just not bother in the 2 games and then go back to french league and that isnt good.

swiwi_ · 02-09-2020 7:09pm

I have to say at quick look face value. Yawn. 8 teams from the Pro 14 qualify...? For 2 pools of 12 teams...?
Less is more IMHO.

AbusesToilets · 02-09-2020 7:10pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You would see far less interest if its straight knockout as the sides would just not bother in the 2 games and then go back to french league and that isnt good.

Would that be marketedly different from current circumstances? The benefit to having the Euro comp as a knockout after league conclusion would be to remove any schedule conflict. French teams wouldn't have a divided focus, same for the English. How many times have we seen French champions struggle in the HC?

ArmaniJeanss · 02-09-2020 9:29pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Would that be marketedly different from current circumstances? The benefit to having the Euro comp as a knockout after league conclusion would be to remove any schedule conflict. French teams wouldn't have a divided focus, same for the English.

That's a late June early July H-Cup then? The French seem to like a Top 14 final in June, last weekend in May at the earliest. Doubt they'll be open to change there.
Major change to the calendar.

Podge_irl · 02-09-2020 9:29pm

PRO14 continuing to cover themselves in glory organisational wise. Apparently Connacht are now Tier 3 based on the joint table despite the fact that if there were only 6 teams they wouldn’t qualify at all. Meanwhile Treviso aren’t in the euros despite being much better placed in a joint table then Dragons. There are either conferences or there aren’t...

connachta · 02-09-2020 9:32pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

PRO14 continuing to cover themselves in glory organisational wise. Apparently Connacht are now Tier 3 based on the joint table despite the fact that if there were only 6 teams they wouldn’t qualify at all. Meanwhile Treviso aren’t in the euros despite being much better placed in a joint table then Dragons. There are either conferences or there aren’t...

Good chance to face Pat Lam in official game then

Zzippy · 02-09-2020 9:40pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

PRO14 continuing to cover themselves in glory organisational wise. Apparently Connacht are now Tier 3 based on the joint table despite the fact that if there were only 6 teams they wouldn’t qualify at all. Meanwhile Treviso aren’t in the euros despite being much better placed in a joint table then Dragons. There are either conferences or there aren’t...

Source?
That's a bit mad alright Ted but as a Connacht fan I'll take it

Former Former · 02-09-2020 9:42pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Source?
That's a bit mad alright Ted but as a Connacht fan I'll take it

https://www.pro14.rugby/latest/news/guinness-pro14-european-qualification

Clowns

Zzippy · 02-09-2020 9:48pm

Former Former wrote: »

https://www.pro14.rugby/latest/news/guinness-pro14-european-qualification

Clowns

So, Leinster could be Tier 2 after all?

AbusesToilets · 02-09-2020 9:52pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

That's a late June early July H-Cup then? The French seem to like a Top 14 final in June, last weekend in May at the earliest. Doubt they'll be open to change there.
Major change to the calendar.

Well, that change would go along with a calendar realignment. So in my fantasy land, that wouldn't run so late into the summer

Tomtom364 · 02-09-2020 9:59pm

Former Former wrote: »

https://www.pro14.rugby/latest/news/guinness-pro14-european-qualification

Clowns

So 6 teams in, Connacht don't qualify because it goes by league place not the combined table.

8 teams in Connacht qualify, but then because of the combined table they jump to 6th place instead of 7/8.

Meanwhile Treviso don't qualify due to league position, while having more points then dragons (who are in) on the combined table.

Bonkers.

Former Former · 02-09-2020 10:10pm

Zzippy wrote: »

So, Leinster could be Tier 2 after all?

Yep. Which is fair enough I think, that's always how it was.

But Glasgow have been rode sideways here.

awec · 02-09-2020 10:27pm

Honestly the pro14 is such a farce is anyone really surprised any more?

Zzippy · 02-09-2020 10:29pm

Former Former wrote: »

Yep. Which is fair enough I think, that's always how it was.

But Glasgow have been rode sideways here.

Agreed. If they were going to use league points to seed teams they should have used league points to select qualifying teams. Treviso have been rode sideways too.

Eod100 · 16-09-2020 12:13pm

Champions Cup semi-final details out:

2019/20 semi-finals – dates and kick-off times
Wednesday 16th September 2020

12:00 pm (GMT)

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2019/20 semi-finals – dates and kick-off times
Last season's semi-final at the Aviva Stadium between Leinster Rugby and Toulouse

Ahead of the much-anticipated Heineken Champions Cup and Challenge Cup knockout stages, EPCR is pleased to announce the dates, kick-off times and TV coverage for the semi-final matches in both tournaments.

The winners of the Leinster Rugby v Saracens and the ASM Clermont Auvergne v Racing 92 Heineken Champions Cup quarter-finals will meet in the semi-final on Saturday, 26 September live on BT Sport with additional free-to-air coverage on Channel 4 and Virgin Media.

The second semi-final, also on Saturday, 26 September and also live on BT Sport, will feature the winners of the Exeter Chiefs v Northampton Saints and Toulouse v Ulster Rugby quarter-finals.

On an exceptional basis to facilitate the conclusion of the season, EPCR can confirm that the highest-ranked clubs from the pool stage will have home venue advantage in the semi-finals. (See permutations below).

In the Challenge Cup, the winners of the Bristol Bears v Dragons and Bordeaux-Bègles v Edinburgh Rugby quarter-finals will play one another on Friday, 25 September while the winners of the RC Toulon v Scarlets and Leicester Tigers v Castres Olympique quarter-finals will meet on Saturday, 26 September.

The highest-ranked clubs from the pool stage will have home venue advantage as per the traditional Challenge Cup format.

Non-rights media (print, radio, online and photographic) should note that accreditation requests for this season’s Heineken Champions Cup and Challenge Cup semi-final matches will be managed by the home clubs.

HEINEKEN CHAMPIONS CUP SEMI-FINALS – Saturday 26 September

SF 1: Winner Leinster Rugby/Saracens v winner ASM Clermont Auvergne/Racing 92
Kick-off: 13.00 UK-Irish time or 14.00 French time
TV: BT Sport/Channel 4/Virgin Media/beIN SPORTS/FR 2

SF 2: Winner Exeter Chiefs/Northampton Saints v winner Toulouse/Ulster Rugby
Kick-off: 15.30 UK-Irish time or 16.30 French time
TV: BT Sport/FR 2/beIN SPORTS

Semi-final 1
If Leinster Rugby (ranked No 1) and ASM Clermont Auvergne (ranked No 4) win their quarter-finals, Leinster will have home venue advantage

If Leinster (ranked No 1) and Racing 92 (ranked No 5) win their quarter-finals, Leinster will have home venue advantage

If ASM Clermont Auvergne (ranked No 4) and Saracens (ranked No 8) win their quarter-finals, Clermont will have home venue advantage

If Racing 92 (ranked No 5) and Saracens (ranked No 8) win their quarter-finals, Racing will have home venue advantage

Semi-final 2
If Exeter Chiefs (ranked No 2) and Toulouse (ranked No 3) win their quarter-finals, Exeter will have home venue advantage

If Exeter Chiefs (ranked No 2) and Ulster Rugby (ranked No 6) win their quarter-finals, Exeter will have home venue advantage

If Toulouse (ranked No 3) and Northampton Saints (ranked No 7) win their quarter-finals, Toulouse will have home venue advantage

If Ulster Rugby (ranked No 6) and Northampton Saints (ranked No 7) win their quarter-finals, Ulster will have home venue advantage

https://www.epcrugby.com/2020/09/16/2019-20-semi-finals-dates-and-times/

Buer · 17-09-2020 2:23pm

Kurtley Beale got 3 weeks for his red card last weekend. I'm very surprised. Not only because it was a soft enough red card (had to be by the letter of the law) but the complete inconsistencies given Tekori struck someone in the face the previous week and only got a week.