Women's Rights in Islam - UPDATED WITH MOD INSTRUCTION IN FIRST POST

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:38am

katydid wrote: »

So not an equal partnership then, like a Christian or normal Western marriage, where people share their earnings for the common good.

Traditional early century Christian practice or modern secular Christians?

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 12:40am

katydid wrote: »

You're a man. I'm a woman. I've had periods. I've given birth. I can assure you, the female reproductive system is not a handicap, and a period is not an illness. SOME women have problems.

I never made such claims and would dissociate myself from people who does.

katydid wrote: »

Any woman OR MAN who has any kind of illness should be excused from certain things in life, but singling out women as a group and assuming that because they have periods they are somehow incapacitated every month is sexist and ignorant.

Because they deserve a special attention and mention as a period is a natural part of a women life and is not an illness, and due to the discomforts a women may go through during her period, she is excused from prayer, as having to perform ablution and pray 5 times a day in such a state my cause her more distress, especially when she needs to wake up at 2-7 AM for the morning prayer.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:41am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I provided 2 articles already one that refute what she posted and one that deals with an alternative interpretation of the verse, review my comment.

There's no greater honour to a Muslim then memorizing his own words in his heart along with the immense reward associated with it, but I dont think a single Christian can memorize the bible even if he tried

That's fine. As long as you agree that these things are open to interpretation, and there is no one definitive point of agreement.

That's fine, if Muslims want to learn things by rote. It's not my idea of scholarship, because learning by rote is no guarantee of understanding. It is, in fact, often a hindrance, as I have found in over thirty years of teaching. I have no interest in memorising the Bible, although I spent time reading and studying it. I see no need to commit it to memory, as long as I have a text I can read from. As long as you realise that there are other kinds of scholarship.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:44am

katydid wrote: »

More fool you. Nobody should pay to maintain another adult. Children are a different thing. I never paid my ex-husband a penny or looked for a penny from him, as we had no children together. As far as I know, there is no law to that effect.

Whatever happened to good old Christian generosity and charity.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:45am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

I never made such claims and would dissociate myself from people who does.

Because they deserve a special attention and mention as a period is a natural part of a women life and is not an illness, and due to the discomforts a women may go through during her period, she is excused from prayer, as having to perform ablution and pray 5 times a day in such a state my cause her more distress, especially when she needs to wake up at 2-7 AM for the morning prayer.

Special attention? Why? If it's just a normal part of life, why treat it as special?
Explain how waking up for morning prayer might be a problem because someone has their period? I fail to see the connection.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:46am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Whatever happened to good old Christian generosity and charity.

What has that got to do with this issue?

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:46am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Traditional early century Christian practice or modern secular Christians?

Modern Christians, secular or otherwise.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:47am

katydid wrote: »

That's fine. As long as you agree that these things are open to interpretation, and there is no one definitive point of agreement.

That's fine, if Muslims want to learn things by rote. It's not my idea of scholarship, because learning by rote is no guarantee of understanding. It is, in fact, often a hindrance, as I have found in over thirty years of teaching. I have no interest in memorising the Bible, although I spent time reading and studying it. I see no need to commit it to memory, as long as I have a text I can read from. As long as you realise that there are other kinds of scholarship.

Memorisation of the Quran is not scholarship.

Millions of lay people are Hafidh (memorisers/protectors) of the Quran.

Scholars, chose to do it, to aid them with their worship and so that they can recall at will when teaching or writing.

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 12:49am

Stheno wrote: »

The argument is circular when you see nuns in veils as I have in both Dublin and Malta the past few years.

Nuns wear it as a uniform showing they are celibate and married to the church. It's not for every woman to wear. It's a special uniform to distinguish them from the laity as far as i know.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:50am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Memorisation of the Quran is not scholarship.

Millions of lay people are Hafidh (memorisers/protectors) of the Quran.

Scholars, chose to do it, to aid them with their worship and so that they can recall at will when teaching or writing.

"Memorisation of the Quran is not scholarship."
Fair enough. I'm glad we agree. YOU gave the impression that you thougth it was, when you questioned the bona fides of nuns being scholars. You said Muslim scholars started off you by memorising the Qur'an.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 12:51am

katydid wrote: »

Special attention? Why? If it's just a normal part of life, why treat it as special?

And this is exactly why it deserve special attention, if this was not pointed out since it's a natural part of life, then it would have been an obligation for the women to pray during her menstruation regardless of whether she suffers from symptoms or no.

katydid wrote: »

Explain how waking up for morning prayer might be a problem because someone has their period? I fail to see the connection.

Numerous studies have "reported a significant influence of ovarian hormone status on cognition and person perception" there are many menstrually related mood issues supported by scientific findings I'll link a few below if your unaware.

Now it is well known that normal women suffer varying degrees of discomfort preceding the onset of menstruation, hence am not sure why are you arguing against this.
Because the Muslim women might find it difficult when suffering the such symptoms to wake up in the morning and pray.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 12:53am

katydid wrote: »

Modern Christians, secular or otherwise.

Would you care to explain what the early church ruled about gender equality.

I think modern christian thought has diverged significantly from the original teachings, not only of Jesus, son of Mary, but also of early christian thought, including the nicene creed.

I'm not in favor of modernization in religion at all. If you claim that God revealed your scripture then who gave is the right as creation to change God's teachings?

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:54am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

And this is exactly why it deserve special attention, if this was not pointed out since it's a natural part of life, then it would have been an obligation for the women to pray during her menstruation regardless of whether she suffers from symptoms or no.

Numerous studies have "reported a significant influence of ovarian hormone status on cognition and person perception" there are many menstrually related mood issues supported by scientific findings I'll link a few below if your unaware.

Now it is well known that normal women suffer varying degrees of discomfort preceding the onset of menstruation, hence am not sure why are you arguing against this.
Because the Muslim women might find it difficult when suffering the such symptoms to wake up in the morning and pray.

Why not have it so that anyone, male or female, who is suffering in any way, due to any illness, is excused from their normal obligations of prayer? Most women don't have any problems, and have no need to be excused, so by making a false assumption, Islam is being patronising towards women.

katydid · 31-12-2014 12:56am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Would you care to explain what the early church ruled about gender equality.

I think modern christian thought has diverged significantly from the original teachings, not only of Jesus, son of Mary, but also of early christian thought, including the nicene creed.

I'm not in favor of modernization in religion at all. If you claim that God revealed your scripture then who gave is the right as creation to change God's teachings?

The early church didn't rule anything about gender equality.
What, in the Nicene creed, addressed gender equality or inequality, other than the mention of the SON?

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 12:58am

Just when you mentioned prayers there, i was thinking i have often heard muslims say Jesus prayed like a muslim. But the Bible shows us many stances in praying not just one.

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him.
—Luke 9:28-32, NIV

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed
—John 17:1a, NIV

I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer…
—1 Timothy 2:8a, NIV

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I want to thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
—Luke 18:10-13, NIV

The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt, and let him go.
—Matthew 18:26, NIV

[Jesus] withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
—Luke 22:41-44, NIV

Then [Jesus] said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
—Matthew 26:38-39, NIV

In 2 Samuel 7:18, David sat to pray.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:05am

niamhstokes wrote: »

he fell with his face to the ground and prayed,

.

During our daily ritual prayer we:

Stand
Bow
Sit
Prostrate (just like Jesus)

we also lift our hands in prayer when we supplicate.

Males are also encouraged to dress like Jesus and to grow a beard.

We love Jesus so much and we hold him equal to our Prophet Muhammad whom we follow.

God Willing, I want to be with Jesus in Paradise.

I love him more than I love myself.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 1:05am

katydid wrote: »

Why not have it so that anyone, male or female, who is suffering in any way, due to any illness, is excused from their normal obligations of prayer? Most women don't have any problems, and have no need to be excused, so by making a false assumption, Islam is being patronising towards women.

You said most women, I don't think your familiar with the Muslim prayer or have talked to a Muslim women regarding this issue, I just pointed out that a normal women will suffer from varying degree of discomfort prior to menstruation, for a Muslim women going through this performing ablution 5 times daily by washing her face,feet and hand and proceed to perform the 5 daily prayer on time while suffering such discomfort may be difficult.

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 1:06am

Just for a good perspective on Fashion and Modesty from a Catholic point of view I LOVE Leah Darrow, she was on America's next top model and left modelling when Christ called her. Now she preaches God's message across America. Here is a short video she made on Fashion and Modesty, it's only 2 minutes long but think you will like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9M5yv7DoB8

And about men and modesty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8XfbCrWa3c

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:07am

katydid wrote: »

The early church didn't rule anything about gender equality.
What, in the Nicene creed, addressed gender equality or inequality, other than the mention of the SON?

So then you have to refer to the texts in your scripture where God ruled about this issue.
Can you elaborate please.

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:12am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

You said most women, I don't think your familiar with the Muslim prayer or have talked to a Muslim women regarding this issue, I just pointed out that a normal women will suffer from varying degree of discomfort prior to menstruation, for a Muslim women going through this performing ablution 5 times daily by washing her face,feet and hand and proceed to perform the 5 daily prayer on time while suffering such discomfort may be difficult.

I said MOST women because most women do NOT suffer discomfort during their period. Muslim women are not different from ordinary women, most of them will not suffer discomfort. That is some kind of myth you chauvinistic Muslim men have developed to justify the pretence that women are some kind of delicate creatures that need special treatment.

You haven't addressed my point that special treatment should be connected with actual, not perceived need...that women and men who are suffering for whatever health reason should be given consideration. Not assuming that all women have problems, when this is not the case.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 1:12am

niamhstokes wrote: »

Just for a good perspective on Fashion and Modesty from a Catholic point of view I LOVE Leah Darrow, she was on America's next top model and left modelling when Christ called her. Now she preaches God's message across America. Here is a short video she made on Fashion and Modesty, it's only 2 minutes long but think you will like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9M5yv7DoB8

"A real fashionist uses clothing not her body to make a statement"

Thanks for directing me to such a beautiful massage.

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:13am

muslimstudent wrote: »

So then you have to refer to the texts in your scripture where God ruled about this issue.
Can you elaborate please.

God didn't rule about this issue.

Still waiting to hear what you think the Nicene Creed has to do with it, since YOU brought it up...

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 1:15am

katydid wrote: »

I said MOST women because most women do NOT suffer discomfort during their period.

Where's your evidence that most women do not suffer discomfort during their period? as the scientific evidence I presented speaks otherwise, about how a normal women suffers varying degree of discomfort during her menstruation

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 1:16am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

"A real fashionist uses clothing not her body to make a statement"

Thanks for directing me to such a beautiful massage.

Welcome

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:17am

katydid wrote: »

God didn't rule about this issue.

Still waiting to hear what you think the Nicene Creed has to do with it, since YOU brought it up...

How can God, THE Lawgiver omit something as important as gender equality thus leave its rulings for creation to play around with.

What about the Catholic concept that women are cursed due to the sins of Eve and as punishment have to undergo the pains of pregnancy? and labor? As a doctrine, do you not find this to be unjust?

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:17am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Where's your evidence that most women do not suffer discomfort during their period? as the scientific evidence I presented speaks otherwise, about how a normal women suffers varying degree of discomfort during her menstruation

I haven't seen any evidence in what you present that gives percentages. I know from talking to my friends and relations that very few in those groups, at least, have problems. And those that do just get on with life, because that's what you do. There is no reason to act or be treated differently because of some discomfort IF it arises.

confusedquark · 31-12-2014 1:19am

Period pain is extremely common. Some studies suggest up to 90% of menstruating women experience pain and discomfort during their period.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Periods-painful/Pages/Introduction.aspx

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:20am

muslimstudent wrote: »

How can God, THE Lawgiver omit something as important as gender equality thus leave its rulings for creation to play around with.

What about the Catholic concept that women are cursed due to the sins of Eve and as punishment have to undergo the pains of pregnancy? and labor? As a doctrine, do you not find this to be unjust?

Maybe God just assumes gender equality, and sees no need to spell it out. We are all God's creatures, why on earth is there any need to state what is obvious?

The concept you mention is not specific to Catholicism, it has arisen from time to time in various elements of Christianity. But it is not a tenet of Christianity.

Still waiting for what you have to say about the Nicene creed...

katydid · 31-12-2014 1:22am

confusedquark wrote: »

Period pain is extremely common. Some studies suggest up to 90% of menstruating women experience pain and discomfort during their period.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Periods-painful/Pages/Introduction.aspx

And other studies suggest otherwise. It always pays to read ALL an article, not just the headlines...

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:22am

niamhstokes wrote: »

Just for a good perspective on Fashion and Modesty from a Catholic point of view I LOVE Leah Darrow, she was on America's next top model and left modelling when Christ called her. Now she preaches God's message across America. Here is a short video she made on Fashion and Modesty, it's only 2 minutes long but think you will like it:

...

There are certain elements of her message that are quite good. She has a lovely spirit.

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 1:24am

muslimstudent wrote: »

There are certain elements of her message that are quite good. She has a lovely spirit.

Yeah she is awesome!! I've watched her talks lots and follow her on twitter

http://leahdarrow.com/

confusedquark · 31-12-2014 1:29am

I did read the article - if you had a closer look at it, the other figures related to moderately painful in around 20% of women (and mildly painful/discomfort would obviously be a much greater number), and severe in 2% of cases.
In another study, up to 14% of women reported frequently being unable to go to work because of period pain (again, puts it at the severe spectrum) - all of this of this very much contrasts to your statement of "most women do NOT suffer discomfort during their period".

That said, from my understanding, I don't think pain and discomfort are the main reason why women are excused from prayers during their periods.

In the same way that if a man gets even a drop of urine on his clothes, he is not considered to be in a pure state, and is not permitted to pray until he has washed and changed (even if he could put a pad on), the same goes for menstruating females. The constant spotting (and sometimes more than spotting) means that they are not in the pure state for those days, and that's the reason they are not permitted to pray the obligatory prayers (but they are not prevented from making supplications).

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:30am

katydid wrote: »

Maybe God just assumes gender equality, and sees no need to spell it out. We are all God's creatures, why on earth is there any need to state what is obvious?

The concept you mention is not specific to Catholicism, it has arisen from time to time in various elements of Christianity. But it is not a tenet of Christianity.

Still waiting for what you have to say about the Nicene creed...

I just wanted to know what it had to say about Gender equality, if anything.

Do you realize that the old testament has many interesting rulings on gender issues, equality included.

Do you consider this text to be from Genesis:

“I will multiply your pains in childbirth. You shall give birth to your children in pain. You will long for your husband, but he will lord it over you.”

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 1:45am

Do ye have something like ACTS when you pray?

Adoration (tell God how much you love him and how much he means to you) --Confession (confess sins and ask to be forgiven)--Thanksgiving (tell God all the things and blessings you are thankful for)--Supplication (this is like intercession, this is where you pray for others' needs and your own needs too if you have any)

Basically, i often pray when lying in bed at night and have a chat with Jesus about things. Would you guys do the same? like would you chat away to God like a best friend and tell him everything on your mind? Do muslims do that too?

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 1:54am

niamhstokes wrote: »

Do ye have something like ACTS when you pray?

Adoration (tell God how much you love him and how much he means to you) --Confession (confess sins and ask to be forgiven)--Thanksgiving (tell God all the things and blessings you are thankful for)--Supplication (this is like intercession, this is where you pray for others' needs and your own needs too if you have any)

Basically, i often pray when lying in bed at night and have a chat with Jesus about things. Would you guys do the same? like would you chat away to God like a best friend and tell him everything on your mind? Do muslims do that too?

When we supplicate to the One God we do the following
Praise God.
Thank Him.
Ask him to send, prayers and blessings to Muhammad(PBUH)

It is optional but strongly recommended to:
Repent from our sins.
Ask for forgiveness.
Pray for our brothers and sisters.
Ask for any need that we have.

So it seems like our prayers are similar except ours are always directed to Allah...

And yes, we have a personal relationship with God but it is more like a master, servant relationship.

There are so many similarities between the three Abraham Faiths- Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 2:02am

Our supplication would be along these lines : watch?v=Yn2yffB3keU (youtube)

I still cannot link!

Sorry about the audio effects , just focus on the main supplicator.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 2:08am

niamhstokes wrote: »

Do ye have something like ACTS when you pray?

Adoration (tell God how much you love him and how much he means to you) --Confession (confess sins and ask to be forgiven)--Thanksgiving (tell God all the things and blessings you are thankful for)--Supplication (this is like intercession, this is where you pray for others' needs and your own needs too if you have any)

To us Muslim this is called as you mentioned supplication or Duaa and are also incorporated during our daily prayer its reward is immense and is highly a encouraged virtuous act to perform supplication or duaa to God in Islam as he mentions:

“And your Lord said: ‘Invoke Me [i.e. believe in My Oneness and ask Me for anything] I will respond to your (invocation).

“And when My slaves ask you concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor)”

Here are examples of how our own prophet supplicated to his lord and notice how he incorporate adoration,confession and thanksgiving into his Duaa:

O Allah I ask You for Your Love,And the love of those whom You Love,And the actions that will cause me to attain unto Your Love,O Allah make Your love more beloved,to me than myself, my family and even from cold water.

“O Allah, I turn to You with no trust from me in other than You, nor a hope taking me except to You, nor a power that I rely on, nor a means that I resort to except the seeking of Your favor, expecting of Your mercy, and the havening into the best of that which You have accustomed me to, and You are more aware of what has come to me before in my turning to You of what I like and hate; so in whatever You cast on me Your power, it is praiseworthy Your trial (on me) and clear Your decree in it, and You efface what You will, and establish (what You will), and with You is the source of ordinance.

I ask You by Your Great Name, by the Light of Your Holy Face, and Your Ancient Kingdom, O You Ever-Living, Eternal, Ever-living, Eternal, and by Your Name by which the heavens and the earth have shone, and Your Name by which the first people had been righteous and by which the last people become righteous. O You the Alive One before everything alive, and the Alive One after everything alive, O You the Alive One, there is no god but You; make my deeds from among the accepted and highly raised deeds, and grant to me as You have granted to Your saints and the people of Your obedience, for I believe in You, rely on You, turn to You, and my coming is to You, and gather to me and to my family the whole goodness, and keep away from me, from my parents, from my family, and from my children the whole evil; You are the Kind, the Favorer, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, You give goodness to whomever You like and withhold it from whomever You like, so bestow on me Your mercy, O You the most Merciful of the merciful.”

niamhstokes wrote: »

Basically, i often pray when lying in bed at night and have a chat with Jesus about things. Would you guys do the same? like would you chat away to God like a best friend and tell him everything on your mind? Do muslims do that too?

To us Muslims this is called Night prayer or Qiyam al-Layl which is a voluntary prayer that's described in the Qur'an:

“And those who spend the night in worship of their Lord, prostrate and standing.

Their sides forsake their beds, to invoke their Lord in fear and hope, and they spend (in charity in Allaah’s Cause) out of what We have bestowed on them

Our prophet himself have said that:“The best prayer after the obligatory prayer is prayer at night.” and he said: “You should pray qiyaam al-layl, for it is the custom of the righteous who came before you and it brings you closer to your Lord, and expiates sins and prevents misdeeds.”

So not only do we have something similar we are encouraged to do it when we are able to.

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 2:11am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Our supplication would be along these lines : watch?v=Yn2yffB3keU (youtube)

I still cannot link!

Sorry about the audio effects , just focus on the main supplicator.

Is this the correct link?

Note that this Imam is supplicating during prayer that's why you her people in the Clip behind him saying "Ameen" after what he says

This is the one Muslimstudent meant:

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 2:13am

This is the one: watch?v=T-jB4hqwFuM

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 2:14am

Thanks very much

so do ye always have to do the special movements when you pray or can you just chat away to God like i do too lying in bed or going for a run or whatever when it isnt the formal 5 ones?

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 2:20am

also what do u mean by slave master relationship? i find that confusing as to me Jesus (who is God to me in my faith) loves me and i love Him and because i love Him i follow him willingly and serve Him. So i guess to me it would be a loving relationship? Just the word slave and master sounds harsh and cold to me??

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 2:24am

niamhstokes wrote: »

Thanks very much so do ye always have to do the special movements when you pray or can you just chat away to God like i do too lying in bed or going for a run or whatever when it isnt the formal 5 ones?

Just to differentiate between the two terms:
When we "Pray" yes when we make "Duaa" no, and Duaa is what we do while lying in bed or going for a run & it doesnt require these "special movements"

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 2:25am

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

Just to differentiate between the two terms:
When we "Pray" yes when we make "Duaa" no, and Duaa is what we do while lying in bed or going for a run & it doesnt require these "special movements"

Ok i kinda get it now thanks

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 2:34am

niamhstokes wrote: »

also what do u mean by slave master relationship? i find that confusing as to me Jesus (who is God to me in my faith) loves me and i love Him and because i love Him i follow him willingly and serve Him. So i guess to me it would be a loving relationship? Just the word slave and master sounds harsh and cold to me??

God not only created us, but he sustains us, protects, guides, provides for us.
He showers us with mercy , forgiveness and love.

God is infinitely greater than us , than the universe and everything that it entails. He is Majestic, He is the King of All Kings, The Lord of the Worlds.

It is only befitting that a relationship between insignificant creatures like ourselves be one of Master and Slave.

This is the primary relationship. If not for this then we would stray and be haughty and place ourselves on par with Him,.

At the same time He is our Protecting friend. There are certain people who through sincere devotion and piety reach a status in this life where they are considered as Awliya of Allah, a rank which is higher than that of normal worshipers.

Yet, ultimately they are still slaves of Allah.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 2:35am

^ everything that it entails = everything that it contains

Defender OF Faith · 31-12-2014 2:41am

niamhstokes wrote: »

also what do u mean by slave master relationship? i find that confusing as to me Jesus (who is God to me in my faith) loves me and i love Him and because i love Him i follow him willingly and serve Him. So i guess to me it would be a loving relationship? Just the word slave and master sounds harsh and cold to me??

In Islam we believe that we are all slaves to the all mighty our master the one who created us all, and that everything in existence glorifies him as he says:

"And there is not a thing but glorifies His Praise. But you understand not their glorification. Truly, He is Ever Forbearing, Oft-Forgiving"

"And to Allah alone falls in prostration whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwilling, and so do their shadows in the mornings and the afternoons"

We believe that God is the most Merciful and Gracious, we believe that he's an all Forgiving Merciful and compassionate God as he says:

O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah az-Zumar 39:53)

"O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it."

To you this may be interpreted as love to us it's his mercy, "love" according to this Hadith:

" the Messenger of Allah said: Allah said: My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him."

The Love mentioned in the Hadith is a very special relationship with God, that we believe a Muslim needs to put in the effort and sincerity in order to attain & that this "love/status" is given to those truly devoted and close to him.

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 2:42am

muslimstudent wrote: »

God not only created us, but he sustains us, protects, guides, provides for us.
He showers us with mercy , forgiveness and love.

God is infinitely greater than us , than the universe and everything that it entails. He is Majestic, He is the King of All Kings, The Lord of the Worlds.

It is only befitting that a relationship between insignificant creatures like ourselves be one of Master and Slave.

This is the primary relationship. If not for this then we would stray and be haughty and place ourselves on par with Him,.

At the same time He is our Protecting friend. There are certain people who through sincere devotion and piety reach a status in this life where they are considered as Awliya of Allah, a rank which is higher than that of normal worshipers.

Yet, ultimately they are still slaves of Allah.

I can't relate to that and i'm sure u can't relate to my way

I see God the same way apart from that i'm in a slave master relationship with HIm. And I don't for one minute feel on par with God and never will. It's about Him as a loving God and me as a loving servant. I suppose that's one difference we have then.

muslimstudent · 31-12-2014 2:45am

niamhstokes wrote: »

I can't relate to that and i'm sure u can't relate to my way I see God the same way apart from that i'm in a slave master relationship with HIm. And I don't for one minute feel on par with God and never will. It's about Him as a loving God and me as a loving servant. I suppose that's one difference we have then.

Its in your bible to Niamh!

"I, James, am a slave of God..."

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+1&version=MSG

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 2:48am

I guess what we mean is we have a personal relationship with God:

Having a personal relationship with God begins the moment we realize our need for Him, admit we are sinners, and in faith receive Jesus Christ as Savior. God, our heavenly Father, has always desired to be close to us, to have a relationship with us. Before Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden (Genesis chapter 3), both he and Eve knew God on an intimate, personal level. They walked with Him in the garden and talked directly to Him. Due to the sin of man, we became separated and disconnected from God.

What many people do not know, realize, or care about, is that Jesus gave us the most amazing gift—the opportunity to spend eternity with God if we trust in Him. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). God became a human being in the Person of Jesus Christ to take on our sin, be killed, and then be raised to life again, proving His victory over sin and death. “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1). If we accept this gift, we have become acceptable to God and can have a relationship with Him.

Having a personal relationship with God means we should include God in our daily lives. We should pray to Him, read His word, and meditate on verses in an effort to get to know Him better. We should pray for wisdom (James 1:5), which is the most valuable asset we could ever have. We should take our requests to Him, asking in Jesus' name (John 15:16). Jesus is the one who loves us enough to give His life for us (Romans 5:8), and He is the one who bridged the gap between us and God.

The Holy Spirit has been given to us as our Counselor. “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you” (John 14:15-17). Jesus said this before He died, and after He died, the Holy Spirit became available to all who earnestly seek to receive Him. He is the one who lives in the hearts of believers and never leaves. He counsels us, teaches us truths, and changes our hearts. Without this divine Holy Spirit, we would not have the ability to fight against evil and temptations. But since we do have Him, we begin to produce the fruit that comes from allowing the Spirit to control us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23).

This personal relationship with God is not as hard to find as we might think, and there is no mysterious formula for getting it. As soon as we become children of God, we receive the Holy Spirit, who will begin to work on our hearts. We should pray without ceasing, read the Bible, and join a Bible-believing church; all these things will help us to grow spiritually. Trusting in God to get us through each day and believing that He is our sustainer is the way to have a relationship with Him. Although we may not see changes immediately, we will begin to see them over time, and all the truths will become clear.

niamhstokes · 31-12-2014 2:58am

muslimstudent wrote: »

Its in your bible to Niamh!

"I, James, am a slave of God..."

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+1&version=MSG

Thanks, we always said servant so I was confused by this. I looked it up and i saw the word 'slave' in Bible comes from doulos the greek for 'to bind' which means we are bound to Jesus Christ our Creator and Saviour and the word can also mean 'devoted follower'.

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